New Starter Warframes.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:

I would argue replacing Mag with Ember. Also, maybe adding Inaros because how survivable and easy he is to mod.

1. Mag is only really useful against one faction, corpus, still.
2. Both take some mods to be somewhat at potential.
3. Ember is great for clearing out early game mobs.
4. Mag is generally considered the worst of the current starters. (and polarize and crush need buffs)
5. Fire cc is always more viable than magnetic.

Rhino exists to guide players how to build their first frame and settle them into the game, he should never be a starter. We have to remember than new players have barely any mods or knowledge to play the game.

Inaros is a quest frame, and shouldn't be a starter frame.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

On 5/24/2017 at 4:59 PM, Almagnus1 said:

Inaros is a quest frame, and shouldn't be a starter frame.

That isn't a proper excuse why he shouldn't, like saying Excalibur shouldn't be a starter because he is at the end of the starchart. (Or that quest frames can't be primed)

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:

That isn't a proper excuse why he shouldn't, like saying Excalibur shouldn't be a starter because he is at the end of the starchart. (Or that quest frames can't be primed)

Quest frames are rewards for doing the quests.  Making a quest frame a starter frame weakens the associated the quest because you're making a quest reward immediately available.  Also, most of the frames from the quests are generally extremely powerful.  Some warframes (like Inaros, Limbo, and Atlas for example) incentivize other activities (like archwing and prime part farming), so by making those frames easier to get, you also weaken the incentives to go do those activities.

As far as primes go, idc what gets primed, because most of the quest frames are still another 2-3 prime accesses away - going by the release order at http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Warframes which has actually been pretty accurate for determining the next primed frame.

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:44 PM, Viedra_Lavinova said:

I would argue replacing Mag with Ember. Also, maybe adding Inaros because how survivable and easy he is to mod.

1. Mag is only really useful against one faction, corpus, still.
2. Both take some mods to be somewhat at potential.
3. Ember is great for clearing out early game mobs.
4. Mag is generally considered the worst of the current starters. (and polarize and crush need buffs)
5. Fire cc is always more viable than magnetic.

Rhino exists to guide players how to build their first frame and settle them into the game, he should never be a starter. We have to remember than new players have barely any mods or knowledge to play the game.

Wait; what?

Pull doesn't require anything to destroy every low-level content; polarize is strong enough .

What does Ember have exactly? A fireball that requires aiming. Why not. Not as good as pull, but wht not. A fire damage buff completely useless for new players (they should always cast 2 fireball instead. always.) with a low duration/low range stun; not as good as polarize. A fire circle, why not (still not as good as polarize). And a 4th ability unusable for beginners without many mods (you know, draining ability).

Mag is far better for clearing low-level content without any mods. Because pull. Because high shield (so less HP loss). Ember is an awful choice for starter, because she requires some mods to do her job. Ember's bread and butter is her 4 (and its synergy with her 2), and her 4 isn't usable as-is (and her 2 isn't that useful without her 4).

 

Now, why is there so many old grognards in a thread about starter frame? "Mag is weak" is an old grognards thing, not a new player thing. It's a thing you think when you see how she's performing at high level. This can't be a thing you think when you see how she perform on Earth or or Ceres or Jupiter with low-level mods, and when you compare with how Excal or Rhino or Ember performs in the same conditions. Or explain why you think she doesn't perform well on Mars and what your actual experience with low-level Mag is.

 

 

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Quest frames are rewards for doing the quests.  Making a quest frame a starter frame weakens the associated the quest because you're making a quest reward immediately available.  Also, most of the frames from the quests are generally extremely powerful.  Some warframes (like Inaros, Limbo, and Atlas for example) incentivize other activities (like archwing and prime part farming), so by making those frames easier to get, you also weaken the incentives to go do those activities.

A quest should be a reward all by itself.

I know it's hard to grasp when current quests are Glast Gambit or Limbo's Theorem ("farm the same mission X time in random tiles like the normal game lol, with almost no connection between the storyline and the mission because we couldn't care less" in both case), but yes, a quest should have an engaging storyline, objectives tied to the narration, special awesome locations, and sometime an epic final. It should be something that can't be done within the limitation of the normal gameplay (which is "farm random missions on random tiles"). The reward should be the icing on the cake, you should be wanting to do the quest without it.

Almost no one uses the reward from the war within (the operator form), but the quest is awesome and everyone should do it because it is awesome.
If no one is willing to do the quests, you should asks yourself why your quests are so sh*tty, not add some big reward. If people are willing to do the quests even with no reward involved, then you don't care if there are other ways to get the same reward.

So no, "this frame is a quest reward" isn't a good argument. "Equinox/Mesa/Excalibur/non-prime Saryn and Chroma/non-prime Nekros is a dumb farming reward and no one should get those frame without the dumb farming part" is a far better argument.

 

Note: it's the same with every activity involved in the game. if no one is willing to do archwing missions, you should asks yourself why archwing is sh*tty, not force players to play archwing in a quest with a non-archwing reward. If everyone is using vacuum... You get the idea, I guess.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[Iccotak]

7 hours ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:

That isn't a proper excuse why he shouldn't, like saying Excalibur shouldn't be a starter because he is at the end of the starchart. (Or that quest frames can't be primed)

Guys, Stop suggesting quest frames like Atlas and Inaros.
Here is why: They are mix classes.
The point of beginning frames is to introduce new players to the basics.
There are Basic Classes and then there are mixed classes.
Basic classes give the player an understanding of the game, mixed classes allow them to explore a larger variety of play styles.

Excalibur = basic warrior
Volt = basic caster
Loki = basic sneak
Rhino = basic tank
Trinity = basic healer
Ash = basic assassin

Atlas = tank/summoner
Ivara = sneak/long-range assassin
Oberon = tank/healer+buffer (Not arguing about him just stating his purpose)
Inaros = draining/dps/...mummy
Chroma = dps/tank/...dragon

Point being the further you go the more complicated they get.
 

50 minutes ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

If no one is willing to do the quests, you should asks yourself why your quests are so sh*tty, not add some big reward. If people are willing to do the quests even with no reward involved, then you don't care if there are other ways to get the same reward.

So no, "this frame is a quest reward" isn't a good argument.

Note: it's the same with every activity involved in the game. if no one is willing to do archwing missions, you should asks yourself why archwing is sh*tty, not force players to play archwing in a quest with a non-archwing reward.

^THIS^
If you have a problem with the quest, then start another topic and bring to light your problems with its mechanics.
Don't like the farming in quests? Or repeating the Index constantly? Or Archwing mechanics? Discuss it in another thread. 
Make your problems known so then DE can fix it.
Don't remove the quests/mechanics, improve them.

OFF-TOPIC:
DE is working on overhauling the operator mechanics which will probably be revealed at Tenno-Con, along with many other things.
Hence why I refrain from criticizing Warframe until I see what they have in store for the future. 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

3 hours ago, Iccotak said:

Guys, Stop suggesting quest frames like Atlas and Inaros.
Here is why: They are mix classes.
The point of beginning frames is to introduce new players to the basics.
There are Basic Classes and then there are mixed classes.
Basic classes give the player an understanding of the game, mixed classes allow them to explore a larger variety of play styles.

 

I disagree. A starter frame must have a strong point so the beginner immediately understand how to use his frame in an efficient way, but this strong point shouldn't be pigeonholing. In other words, a starter frame shouldn't try to do too much (Oberon, Chroma...) (i agree with you here), but it shouldn't try to do too little either (Loki, Trinity...)

Not being pigeonholed makes the frame more forgetful, and allows the beginner to discover other aspects of the game. Those are two important things when you begin.

Take a look at Loki: let's say you failed at the stealth game (remember, we're talking about beginners, perma-invi isn't an option); you're basically screwed: you have no HP, no shield, no armor, and no attack ability (especially if all your energy was consumed in the stealth game). Ash is quite good at the stealth game (...as i said earlier, invi duration is an issue for beginners, but let's ignore this point) and he can handle a fight when he fails. And if the beginner discovers he doesn't like stealth, he can use Ash to kick butts - this require more work with Loki.

Currently, every starter frame has an attack ability (this is required in the tutorial anyway...) and a CC (or more), is able to take some hits (mag and volt have high shields), and the two casters have a strong defensive ability. This is a good mix.

 

Quote

^THIS^
If you have a problem with the quest, then start another topic and bring to light your problems with its mechanics.
Don't like the farming in quests? Or repeating the Index constantly? Or Archwing mechanics? Discuss it in another thread. 
Make your problems known so then DE can fix it.
Don't remove the quests/mechanics, improve them.

You're quite good at filtering troll from interesting content in my posts. :p

I'll add: there's no reward for playing Warframe. In the end of the day, you can't bring your Atlas or your Inaros with you in your real life. Therefore playing Warframe itself is the only reward you may ever get by playing warframe. OK it's cool to unlock Inaros, have an endorphin discharge while thinking "it's over", and then discover a new kind of gameplay, but this isn't a meaningful reward. The meaningful reward is "I played a quest in warframe for X hours and it was a lot of fun".

Note: I'm quite confident they're trying to improve the game. Octavia's anthem is far better than many older quest. It's not sheer luck, it's DE improving.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa

[Almagnus1]

6 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Almost no one uses the reward from the war within (the operator form), but the quest is awesome and everyone should do it because it is awesome.
If no one is willing to do the quests, you should asks yourself why your quests are so sh*tty, not add some big reward. If people are willing to do the quests even with no reward involved, then you don't care if there are other ways to get the same reward.

So Kuva Siphons are what then?  Oh yeah, part of the stuff you unlock when you complete War Within.

2 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

You're quite good at filtering troll from interesting content in my posts. :p

Why not just post thoughts w/o the troll?

[S0VEREIGNSK]

Frost and Trinity will be a good start. Learn teamwork and support basic, i also start playing Frost Or lowkey

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, System.Lord.Ra said:

Frost and Trinity will be a good start. Learn teamwork and support basic, i also start playing Frost Or lowkey

I'm not certain about Frost (because Frost is a slower warframe), but Trinity would probably work better than Volt initially.

[S0VEREIGNSK]

2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

I'm not certain about Frost (because Frost is a slower warframe), but Trinity would probably work better than Volt initially.

Yes yes, trinity is good also everyone need her EV most

[Iccotak]

5 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

You're quite good at filtering troll from interesting content in my posts. :p

5 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

I'll add: there's no reward for playing Warframe. In the end of the day, you can't bring your Atlas or your Inaros with you in your real life. Therefore playing Warframe itself is the only reward you may ever get by playing warframe. OK it's cool to unlock Inaros, have an endorphin discharge while thinking "it's over", and then discover a new kind of gameplay, but this isn't a meaningful reward. The meaningful reward is "I played a quest in warframe for X hours and it was a lot of fun".

I agree.
I'm agreeing with you're statement that many of the quests for warframes are bad, farm-y, repetitive, and bland in general.
But instead of removing those quests, improve them.
 

5 hours ago, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

but it shouldn't try to do too little either (Loki, Trinity...)

Those frames are still solid frames.
Just because they are basic frames does not make them bad frames. In fact they are very good at their jobs.
Trinity is a basic support frames and she is a very good support frame.

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 26/05/2017 at 9:49 PM, Iccotak said:

Those frames are still solid frames.

Just because they are basic frames does not make them bad frames. In fact they are very good at their jobs.

Trinity is a basic support frames and she is a very good support frame.

They are, indeed, very good frame; I'm saying they are too specialized for beginners. "They do too little" meant, in my head, "they are good at only one thing" (but they are great at that thing, indeed) (I know Loki can be an awesome crowd controller; but it's hard to do at low level).