Split Chamber Scalings

[Urash]

Just something that's been tugging at the back of my mind for a long time now; why is rifle multishot the only one that has a cap of less than 100%? Every other weapon type hits 120% when fully hopped up, but rifle gets left out of the party.

 

I get the feeling someone decided this because of snipers being in the "rifle" catagory, but it's not like snipers will be somehow overpowered. You could make snipers one-hit everything but the boss and they still wouldn't be overpowered because of the 400-enemy M Prime missions. Even if you never miss once you'd run out of ammo at least once on most void extermination missions, even on the lowest enemy counts.

[Xoxile]

Maybe the same reason point blank caps at 90%, and no return caps at a pathetic 30%.

[Xylia]

Just something that's been tugging at the back of my mind for a long time now; why is rifle multishot the only one that has a cap of less than 100%? Every other weapon type hits 120% when fully hopped up, but rifle gets left out of the party.

 

I get the feeling someone decided this because of snipers being in the "rifle" catagory, but it's not like snipers will be somehow overpowered. You could make snipers one-hit everything but the boss and they still wouldn't be overpowered because of the 400-enemy M Prime missions. Even if you never miss once you'd run out of ammo at least once on most void extermination missions, even on the lowest enemy counts.

 

I actually think it is rather the opposite.

 

A 120% Multishot would surely make the Braton and its Prime Variant quite overpowered because they do High Damage AND they are Full Auto.

 

This is to say nothing about what a Gorgon might do, if it had 120 Multishot on it.

 

Try to remember that 100%+ Multishot is basically doubling your damage AND your ammo pool at the same time, unless you overshoot (hit a dead enemy). My Braton is nowhere near fully modded and I am already killing Level 30 junk in 1-2 rounds from my Braton, and sometimes no matter how light I tap the mouse button I still get 3 shots; the 3rd is wasted because the enemy was dead with the first 1-2.

 

120% Multishot would just make this even more silly.

 

With 90% Multishot, and zero overshooting, you have 1338 Ammo maximum for the Braton (assuming fully ranked Ammo Drum).

With 120% Multishot, and zero overshooting, you have 1544 Ammo maximum.

 

That's... kinda overpowered lol.

[PaperAlien]

Because DE just love making rifle mods weaker than pistol/shotgun counterparts for no reason. Examples: Zoom, fire-rate, mag size, reload speed, spare ammo, damage (vs pistol). The great thing is that it never makes sense in any of the cases, except maybe spare ammo, because secondaries should indeed have more spare ammo.

[Xylia]

Maybe the same reason point blank caps at 90%, and no return caps at a pathetic 30%.

 

Point Blank is Raw Damage, No Return is Armor Piercing Damage. You really can't compare the two.

 

Now, I assume you mean Flechette? Yes, that is 90%. However you must realize that pellets do very little damage compared to pistol bullets, its % needs to be higher to give an actual meaningful return. The HIGHEST damage Pellet in the game is the Hek's which does 13 damage per pellet. 30% of 13 is only 4 damage. That wouldn't even be worth sticking on the gun.

[Xylia]

Because DE just love making rifle mods weaker than pistol/shotgun counterparts for no reason. Examples: Zoom, fire-rate, mag size, reload speed, spare ammo, damage (vs pistol). The great thing is that it never makes sense in any of the cases, except maybe spare ammo, because secondaries should indeed have more spare ammo.

 

Rifles do far more damage unmodded than Pistols and Shotguns typically do. Shotguns have the problem of missing with some of the pellets, and Pistols are meant to be backup weapons. They do less damage, thus need higher % numbers for a meaningful increase.

 

For example, +Ammo Maximum.

 

A Rifle has 540 Ammo base.

A Pistol, 210.

A Shotgun, 100-ish.

 

Putting 60% Ammo on a Rifle would be ridiculous. You'd have 864 Ammo if Ammo Drum was 60%.

[Xoxile]

Point Blank is Raw Damage, No Return is Armor Piercing Damage. You really can't compare the two.

 

Now, I assume you mean Flechette? Yes, that is 90%. However you must realize that pellets do very little damage compared to pistol bullets, its % needs to be higher to give an actual meaningful return. The HIGHEST damage Pellet in the game is the Hek's which does 13 damage per pellet. 30% of 13 is only 4 damage. That wouldn't even be worth sticking on the gun.

No I mean Point Blank.

The point I was trying to make is the guns are very different not only in their base form but in the mods they are able to use as well. I'd find the variety of options lacking if all the mods scale the same.

[Tyrian3k]

Point Blank is Raw Damage, No Return is Armor Piercing Damage. You really can't compare the two.

 

Now, I assume you mean Flechette? Yes, that is 90%. However you must realize that pellets do very little damage compared to pistol bullets, its % needs to be higher to give an actual meaningful return. The HIGHEST damage Pellet in the game is the Hek's which does 13 damage per pellet. 30% of 13 is only 4 damage. That wouldn't even be worth sticking on the gun.

 

Afuris also only deals 14 damage, but still only gets a 30% mod.

And also, to my knowledge the Hek fires 7 pellets for 20 damage each.

 

I already said it in another thread, but AP damage is the backbone of a weapons' damage, as it is the only moddable damage that isn't affected by the increased armor of high level enemies.

Since the AP mod for pistols is so weak, they become pretty useless in high level missions (excluding Kunai, Bolto etc.)

 

Many weapon mods are severely underpowered and give the player no real reason to even consider them a choice.

[Xylia]

No I mean Point Blank.

The point I was trying to make is the guns are very different not only in their base form but in the mods they are able to use as well. I'd find the variety of options lacking if all the mods scale the same.

 

Actually, all guns have the same mods.

 

Shotguns, Pistols and Rifles all have Fire, Ice, Electric, Armor Piercing Damage (so do Melee Weapons). All guns have Fire Rate, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Firing Speed, Reload Speed.......they all have the same mods, though they're named different.

 

The only difference is for melee weapons: They have a separate damage mod for charge attacks and charge speed.

 

The reason for this is so that they could make the different mods have different values to keep the guns balanced. Since Rifles put out a lot more damage than pistols, they didn't want the Ammo Maximum being the same for Shotguns, Rifles, and Pistols. Either the Shotgun/Pistol get the short end of the stick (30% on a shotgun would be very unimpressive) or it'd be overpowered for the Rifle (60% on a rifle is overpowered as I explained above).

 

That's why the mods are different for different guns.

[Tyrian3k]

Rifles do far more damage unmodded than Pistols and Shotguns typically do. Shotguns have the problem of missing with some of the pellets, and Pistols are meant to be backup weapons. They do less damage, thus need higher % numbers for a meaningful increase.

 

For example, +Ammo Maximum.

 

A Rifle has 540 Ammo base.

A Pistol, 210.

A Shotgun, 100-ish.

 

Putting 60% Ammo on a Rifle would be ridiculous. You'd have 864 Ammo if Ammo Drum was 60%.

 

Putting a max ammo/reload speed/clip capacity mod on your weapon is a trade off, since you have to remove a mod that gives you additional damage. That is nowhere near OP.

[Xylia]

Afuris also only deals 14 damage, but still only gets a 30% mod.

And also, to my knowledge the Hek fires 7 pellets for 20 damage each.

 

I already said it in another thread, but AP damage is the backbone of a weapons' damage, as it is the only moddable damage that isn't affected by the increased armor of high level enemies.

Since the AP mod for pistols is so weak, they become pretty useless in high level missions (excluding Kunai, Bolto etc.)

 

Many weapon mods are severely underpowered and give the player no real reason to even consider them a choice.

 

Afuris is a weak gun in general, as most Full Auto guns are.

 

All Full Auto guns except for the Braton(Prime) and Boltor run into the same problem: It takes too many bullets to kill something, and each bullet does too little damage. That's why you rarely see players using them in higher level missions. Heck, I rarely even see Gorgons outside of Boss Fights, because of its horrible ammo consumption.

[Xoxile]

Actually, all guns have the same mods.

 

Shotguns, Pistols and Rifles all have Fire, Ice, Electric, Armor Piercing Damage (so do Melee Weapons). All guns have Fire Rate, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Firing Speed, Reload Speed.......they all have the same mods, though they're named different.

 

The only difference is for melee weapons: They have a separate damage mod for charge attacks and charge speed.

o.0

The reason for this is so that they could make the different mods have different values to keep the guns balanced. Since Rifles put out a lot more damage than pistols, they didn't want the Ammo Maximum being the same for Shotguns, Rifles, and Pistols. Either the Shotgun/Pistol get the short end of the stick (30% on a shotgun would be very unimpressive) or it'd be overpowered for the Rifle (60% on a rifle is overpowered as I explained above).

 

That's why the mods are different for different guns.

Well you just answered your own question right here.

[Tyrian3k]

Afuris is a weak gun in general, as most Full Auto guns are.

 

All Full Auto guns except for the Braton(Prime) and Boltor run into the same problem: It takes too many bullets to kill something, and each bullet does too little damage. That's why you rarely see players using them in higher level missions. Heck, I rarely even see Gorgons outside of Boss Fights, because of its horrible ammo consumption.

 

And that's why we need ammo capacity mods to be more powerful. That would give people more of a reason to use those weapons.

[Xylia]

Putting a max ammo/reload speed/clip capacity mod on your weapon is a trade off, since you have to remove a mod that gives you additional damage. That is nowhere near OP.

 

You do 0 damage when you run out of ammo.

 

+Ammo IS Damage.

 

A gun that can do 25 damage per bullet and has an ammo max of 540 does 10,800 damage until it runs out of ammo. Add a maxed Ammo Drum on that same gun and you get 17550 damage over the "life" of the gun.

 

Yes, you can carry ammo boxes. But only 8 per mission, and you have to keep buying those. And how many damage mods are there, even? You got...

 

Raw Damage

Multishot

Ice

Fire

Electric

Armor Pierce

 

This leaves 2 slots open out of 8 slots. What do you have left?

 

Ammo Maximum

Ammo Per Clip

Reload Speed

Fire Speed

Stun

Crit

Crit Damage

 

Many Rifles' crit chance is far too low to make use of Crit/Crit Damage. That is usually found on snipers.

 

Only one of that above list increases damage over the "life" of the gun, and that is Ammo Max. So you'd probably stick Ammo Max + either Reload or Fire Speed depending on which the gun in question is lacking the most unless you really really need/want Stun.

[Xylia]

Well you just answered your own question right here.

 

I didn't ask any questions in this thread? Please don't confuse me for the OP.

[Xoxile]

I didn't ask any questions in this thread? Please don't confuse me for the OP.

Yeah my mistake.

[Tyrian3k]

You do 0 damage when you run out of ammo.

 

+Ammo IS Damage.

 

A gun that can do 25 damage per bullet and has an ammo max of 540 does 10,800 damage until it runs out of ammo. Add a maxed Ammo Drum on that same gun and you get 17550 damage over the "life" of the gun.

 

Yes, you can carry ammo boxes. But only 8 per mission, and you have to keep buying those. And how many damage mods are there, even? You got...

 

Raw Damage

Multishot

Ice

Fire

Electric

Armor Pierce

 

This leaves 2 slots open out of 8 slots. What do you have left?

 

Ammo Maximum

Ammo Per Clip

Reload Speed

Fire Speed

Stun

Crit

Crit Damage

 

Many Rifles' crit chance is far too low to make use of Crit/Crit Damage. That is usually found on snipers.

 

Only one of that above list increases damage over the "life" of the gun, and that is Ammo Max. So you'd probably stick Ammo Max + either Reload or Fire Speed depending on which the gun in question is lacking the most unless you really really need/want Stun.

 

You are forgetting the double stat mods you can now put on the weapons.

Also: What sense does a max ammo mod make if you don't expect to run out of ammo to begin with?

Crit mods are good for crit weapons, just as much as capacity mods are good for spammy weapons/weapons that tend to run out of ammo quickly.

[Xylia]

And that's why we need ammo capacity mods to be more powerful. That would give people more of a reason to use those weapons.

 

Full Auto Spray weapons need a tweak in general.

 

IMO, Full Auto Spray weapons need a higher ammo maximum (that way the % would increase better too).

 

Akimbo guns should have 50% more ammo to start with, and High Fire Rate guns should have 50% more ammo maximum.

 

This means that Afuris and DViper would have ~400 ammo maximum.

[Tyrian3k]

IMO, Full Auto Spray weapons need a higher ammo maximum (that way the % would increase better too).

 

So... why don't we just solve that problem by making the mod that increases the ammo maximum more powerful?

[Xylia]

You are forgetting the double stat mods you can now put on the weapons.

Also: What sense does a max ammo mod make if you don't expect to run out of ammo to begin with?

Crit mods are good for crit weapons, just as much as capacity mods are good for spammy weapons/weapons that tend to run out of ammo quickly.

 

You assume that stacking mods won't be nerfed at some point (Clanmate noted that he was able to get 98% reload speed on a pistol... yeah so every pistol is instant reload now? *rolls eyes*).

 

Or a Hek with Point Blank AND Blaze on.... yeah, no wonder people are squawking about the game being too easy. Derp.

 

And the whole ammo thing is moot anyways, because I was using it more for example than anything anyways; Ammo is the easiest thing to do Math with, because it is a very straightforward concept.

 

One could say the same thing about damage mods... Serration is 165%, Hornet Strike 220%.

 

Considering Ammo and Rate of Fire, your average Rifle does far more damage than a Pistol does. That is why they are called PRIMARY weapons. 220% on a good Rifle (no, I'm not talking about guns like the MK1) would be a bit much. However, sticking 165% on a pistol means that most pistols wouldn't get enough of a boost for the mod to really do what it was meant to do.

[Xylia]

So... why don't we just solve that problem by making the mod that increases the ammo maximum more powerful?

 

Because for the simple reason, you can't differentiate a Gorgon from a Braton as they both use the same mods.

 

+90% Ammo Maximum on a Braton would be quite overpowered. Not so much on a Gorgon, due to the wind-up time, and the horrible accuracy of the gun once it is wound up.

 

Therefore, changing the ammo max on the gun itself would have the same effect.

 

Right now, a Gorgon has 500 ammo max (I always thought this to be an oversight, every other rifle has 540). Right now, the Ammo Drum is 60% which means you get 800 Maximum Ammo.

 

You're saying you want 90% on a Gorgon? That's 950. That's OK. We can do that. What if Gorgon had 600 Ammo Max, unmodded? 60% would give it 960. There you go, same effect, without making the Braton overpowered.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Xylia

[Tyrian3k]

You assume that stacking mods won't be nerfed at some point (Clanmate noted that he was able to get 98% reload speed on a pistol... yeah so every pistol is instant reload now? *rolls eyes*).

 

It only reduces the reload time by 50%. It is increase in reload speed, not reduction of reload time.

If you go somewhere, you don't get there instantly just by doubling your speed, do you?

 

 

And the whole ammo thing is moot anyways, because I was using it more for example than anything anyways; Ammo is the easiest thing to do Math with, because it is a very straightforward concept.

 

It isn't as easy as you may think. You didn't consider that you get ammo drops around the map and you also didn't consider that ammo maximum mods only give you an advantage if you actually use more ammo than you would have had without the mod.

 

 

One could say the same thing about damage mods... Serration is 165%, Hornet Strike 220%.

 

And there's rifle amp that increases the total damage of rifles by 27% for each player that has it equipped.

 

 

Or a Hek with Point Blank AND Blaze on.... yeah, no wonder people are squawking about the game being too easy. Derp.

 

I am more worried about accelerated blast, since shotguns can deal by far the most AP damage out of all weapon types now.

[Tyrian3k]

Because for the simple reason, you can't differentiate a Gorgon from a Braton as they both use the same mods.

 

+90% Ammo Maximum on a Braton would be quite overpowered. Not so much on a Gorgon, due to the wind-up time, and the horrible accuracy of the gun once it is wound up.

 

Therefore, changing the ammo max on the gun itself would have the same effect.

 

Right now, a Gorgon has 500 ammo max (I always thought this to be an oversight, every other rifle has 540). Right now, the Ammo Drum is 60% which means you get 800 Maximum Ammo.

 

You're saying you want 90% on a Gorgon? That's 950. That's OK. We can do that. What if Gorgon had 600 Ammo Max, unmodded? 60% would give it 960. There you go, same effect, without making the Braton overpowered.

 

You still totally overestimate the effect of ammo capacity.

It just delays the moment when you run out of ammo to a later point, essentially only saving you some ammo boxes.

[Inconmon]

Rifles do far more damage unmodded than Pistols and Shotguns typically do. Shotguns have the problem of missing with some of the pellets, and Pistols are meant to be backup weapons. They do less damage, thus need higher % numbers for a meaningful increase.

For example, +Ammo Maximum.

A Rifle has 540 Ammo base.

A Pistol, 210.

A Shotgun, 100-ish.

Putting 60% Ammo on a Rifle would be ridiculous. You'd have 864 Ammo if Ammo Drum was 60%.

Sorry, but I have to call you out on this: Wrong. +x% is always fair. It's a percentage of the base value.

If one thing gets +100%, the other one +150% and it is "fair", then there are other factors influences the strength OR the base values are not balanced.

If DE did their math properly, there is no reason for different percentages.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Inconmon

[Xylia]

It only reduces the reload time by 50%. It is increase in reload speed, not reduction of reload time.

If you go somewhere, you don't get there instantly just by doubling your speed, do you?

 

Many pistols have reloads in the 1sec area.

 

The slowest ones are around 2sec.

 

The Kunai have been called "Near Instant". Not Instant, but dang near it. You put 98% reload on a gun, say, a Lato (1.2s) and you're going to end up with 0.6 second reload. Seriously? 0.6 seconds is HALF A SECOND. Which is about the time that passes in between shots. You can, if you're fast enough with your fingers, reload the gun nearly as fast as it shoots?

 

That might as well be Instant Reload, because the Reload barely even affects the firing speed of the gun. You can fire all 210 shots and not even notice the half-second pause every 15 shots.

 

One of the WORST Reloads in Pistols, is the Kraken. 2.4 seconds.

 

With 98%, it will be something like 1.3 seconds which is basically what a Lato is now.

 

Stacking these Nightmare mods is just ridiculous. lol.