Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering, Action Disruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool. Please turn it down.

[Redler]

I find engagments with them boring and drawn out.

I thought that's what this thread was about. All you do is run and gun backward the whole mission because doing something else will be very painful in other regard.

[Ced23Ric]

I've not experienced these things

You are not even making sense. You cannot tell me you have never been hit by any Infested ever. That statement is just plain outrageous. You still do not understand that I am pointing out the limited toolbox and that the singular tool the Infested have is stun, which is an annoying mechanism. What part of this can you not follow and understand? It is a fact that their toolbox consists of stun/stagger attacks. That is what they have. It's not an interpretation, it is not an assumption, it is a fact.

Seriously. You are either trolling or do not get it. I am not trying to antagonize you, but holy hell, don't be this way. It is clear as day, regardless of how you deal with the Infested, that their toolbox consists of stuns. How can you even begin to deny that? That is like saying that Grineer don't use guns and you have never been shot by Grineer.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[sambarpowder]

He can actually say that he doesn't get hit by infested anymore, that's quite possible.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Crossflip

[Ced23Ric]

He can actually say that he doesn't get hit by infested anymore, that's quite possible.

Okay. As pointless as this is, but I indulge. I said, he cannot say he has never ever been hit before. The only way he would be oblivious to the stun mechanisms is if that is the case. Even then, he would also have chosen to ignore everyone else who ever was stunned by an Infested, and he would ignore gameplay footage where these things happen.

[Zakalwe]

Ced, I'm not trying to aggravate you. :/

I explained: I do not get hit anywhere near enough with these mechanics that I find them to be broken or over done UNLESS I'm fighting Chargers and Grinders, and even then I'm finding Grinders easier to deal with as I get used to them.

I've not been stun-locked for weeks, and while I do get staggered I find it's due to an error or lack of reaction on my part, so it never feels like it's anything but my own fault.

It doesn't feel to me that the mechanics are overdone in general, and they feel to me like an appropriate punishment when I fail to play efficiently.

Is stagger/KD/stun-lock annoying? Sure, it can be.

Is it overdone? I don't think so.

I'm merely reporting my experience here, I wasn't aware this was a massive problem for so many players until I read this thread. I've read players unhappy with it before, but we read players unhappy with all apsects of the game on a daily preference and I put it down to differences in ability/experience/taste, etc...

I thought that's what this thread was about. All you do is run and gun backward the whole mission because doing something else will be very painful in other regard.

I agree with this aspect, but I disagree with the fact that the aforementioned mechanics are overdone in general. The infested are definitely the most boring faction to fight for me, but that's more to do with the zerg rush of the squishy enemies and silly bullet-sponge health pools of the heavies than anything else.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Dr3dd]

when ever i see post like this i just think "step your game up"..

[Ced23Ric]

when ever i see post like this i just think "step your game up"..

My game is pretty high up there, buddy.

This is game mechanics feedback. It has nothing to do with difficulty (as I said numerous times before).

[Zakalwe]

Ced, no offense meant, but the amount you've grinded doesn't at all tell us anything about your actual ability to play the game.

Nor does quit rate, failure, etc...

Point being, you can't use your stats as proof that you're actually good at the game, the only thing you could do is add Dr3dd and show him in game that you know what you're doing. I'm not doubting you, btw.

And please realise, difficulty is a massive part of the implementation of mechanics, and feedback in that regard is important.

[Dr3dd]

if we went heads up in a team right now id leave you in the dust based off your op you dont stick and move thats what this game is about

[Redler]

So how do I step up my running backward with a multishot Hek? I just want to use my axe, that's why I bought it for, to kill a bunch of infested in one swing, but with all those stagger, it was taken away like my energy and shield.

if we went heads up in a team right now id leave you in the dust based off your op you dont stick and move thats what this game is about

And that comment just remind me of why I stop playing most co-op game.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Redler

[Dr3dd]

I left that comment due to alot of people come on here saying the game needs to changed based of how they play

[Zinn]

Ced, you shouldn't really respond to entry-level trolling, IMO. Also, I would suggest making some edits to your OP to include Grinders, MOAs and such because people like him read it, see "infested" and only thinks you're terrible at the game for not just shooting them, which they have no counter to.

I know the broader context of the topic but I basically have the same experience with the infested as Zakalwe: I have never been caught by a Charger because I have a good melee weapon (rank 30 Scindo with ridiculous mods that can take out 5-6 in a single charge), a HEK with puncture among other nice things and AkLatos at rank 30 with some silly amount of multishot, AP and so forth. I'm not going to venture as far as claiming it's impossible for me to die to Infested because I sometimes do screw up, but I really need to get very unfortunate or run into a sealed room or something to be threatened by them.

Of course, why none of them address the problem of stun mechanics in a game designed around being as quick as possible is another issue. Even if you're not that affected by it, you should be able to see how it can become a problem to non-top specced frames and weapons in conjunction with the spawn mechanics of the game.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zinn

[Dr3dd]

dose this guy stand there and get hit and then get mad whats really going on in some of these games if you play you have seen it the guy that gets downed all the time then gets mad and comes on here and blows up about mob nerf

[Dr3dd]

im not trolling

[Zakalwe]

Redler, I'm not sure that melee was ever supposed to be a primary weapon, hence it's relgation to a quick-use slot.

Infested can stun you, sure, but Corpus and Grineer can all hurt you from distance while you engage in melee, so it's never really a viable option to use for anything but a quick style finish unless you're playing lower levels.

Saying that, meleeing infested squishes is really easy, even on higher levels, and I never find a problem with stagger/stunlock unless I'm swarmed with those horrid Chargers.

Of course, why none of them address the problem of stun mechanics in a game designed around being as quick as possible is another issue. Even if you're not that affected by it, you should be able to see how it can become a problem to non-top specced frames and weapons in conjunction with the spawn mechanics of the game.

I don't consider these mechanics a problem, though, and think they're currently justified punishment.

As long as my gear is relevant to the difficulty, it feels absolutely fine to me. I have a level 30 Heat Sword with bog-standard melee mods on it for the high level stuff, and I'm levelling an axe and Plasma for the lower stuff.

Spawning in an akward position or taking on content that you're not suited for (gear levels not up to par) can make these things annoying, but the former is a separate issue and the latter is something you shouldn't be doing anyway.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Dr3dd]

I think he should have a youtube vid to go along with this post that would help out

[Zakalwe]

Dr3dd. Ced isn't saying he's having difficulty with it, but that the mechanics are frustrating and the increasing focus on them is worrying for the further deveploment of the game.

Of course, lesser skilled players would definitley find these things more of an issue, but I beleive Ced is attemping to speak from a wider perspective than his own.

I don't agree that the mechnics themselves are bad, bu I do agree the increased focus is off-putting.

[Ced23Ric]

if we went heads up in a team right now id leave you in the dust based off your op you dont stick and move thats what this game is about

How presumptous. I mean, it only violently clearly shows how little reading comprehension you can muster, because I even explicitly stated that it is not about survival or the difficulty of the Infested, but about their toolbox and general design as an enemy faction, but you also have no data to even base your assumption on.

But I understand. You are not intelligent enough to grasp what I am saying. And that is okay, I don't judge you because of that.

[Redler]

quote

Well, this is my interpretation, his thread is focused on infested becuase 1) Every single type of infested can stagger or knock you down, and they ussually chain these for quiet sometime if they are in group 2) Moas are easy to deal with, just hit the spacebar 3) Grineer got like 3 stagger/knockdown (Grinder, elite flash bang, and shield dude) they aren't common and easy to deal with (heck, I can deal with them using my rank 16 Scindo)

But when everything in 1 mission got stagger/knockdown, that's just design flaws. It only give you one efficient tactic of running away while shooting.

And as you said, a lot of us with good item won't have trouble with these cheap tactic. I don't experince this anymore, but that's due to me stop using melee, ever.

But what would low level player or people who just don't have good mod do. Charger and Ancient are bullet sponge against weapon without good mods, they will run out of ammo, they will have to melee with so-so melee weapon. And they gonna get stagger and blown up to death.

His feedback thread isn't about himself but every player in general becuase it's a MMO, and it need to balance thing according to people as a whole, not according to a person with 200% multishot +4 Punture HEK.

Try playing rank 1 warframe with rank 1 weapon, it won't be fun.

[Zakalwe]

Try playing rank 1 warframe with rank 1 weapon, it won't be fun.

It's absolutley fine if you play with low level gear, imo, as you should be playing the levels relevant to that gear.

When I say I don't have a problem with it, I mean I never have, and that includes all the times I've levelled weaponry and frames from 0.

How presumptous. I mean, it only violently clearly shows how little reading comprehension you can muster, because I even explicitly stated that it is not about survival or the difficulty of the Infested, but about their toolbox and general design as an enemy faction, but you also have no data to even base your assumption on.

But I understand. You are not intelligent enough to grasp what I am saying. And that is okay, I don't judge you because of that.

As much as I disagree with his tone and tactics, you cannot ignore the fact that difficulty is a part of this. I'm pretty good at games due to my years of experience, large amounts of practise in my more youthful days (played semi-competeitively with a few games), and my decent hardware. Because of this I'm going to have a lot less trouble with the mechanics this thread is about than a less-experienced/skilled player.

As we have no way of knowing individual skill levels besides the claims these individuals make, we have no way of knowing if this is a mechanic issue or a player skill issue, and as these forums are only a small percentage of the player base, we have no way of knowing what the averages are so we can't make any absolute claims.

[Dr3dd]

As we have no way of knowing individual skill levels besides the claims these individuals make, we have no way of knowing if this is a mechanic issue or a player skill issue, and as these forums are only a small percentage of the player base, we have no way of knowing what the averages are so we can't make any absolute claims.

that's what im saying. Also a video would be nice so people can really see the issues you or other people in your team have.

and yes I called you but it was not about hate or trolling on you or anyone. Id just like to see how you play whats wrong with a little challage among players. but you go and call me "not intelligent" low blow Ced.. my pride is hurt hah

Edited February 3, 2013 by Dr3dd

[Redler]

Redler, I'm not sure that melee was ever supposed to be a primary weapon, hence it's relgation to a quick-use slot.

Infested can stun you, sure, but Corpus and Grineer can all hurt you from distance while you engage in melee, so it's never really a viable option to use for anything but a quick style finish unless you're playing lower levels.

Saying that, meleeing infested squishes is really easy, even on higher levels, and I never find a problem with stagger/stunlock unless I'm swarmed with those horrid Chargers.

Sorry for double post.

No, I don't think melee is a primary either. But there a reason we are ninja/samurai/whatever they called tenno, so they can find a reason for us to use melee and it should be one of the core mechanic of the game.

I deal with Grineer and Corpus with my melee all the time to save ammo, usually against 4-5 at once and my health doesn't even have a dent. And this is Eris and Ceres I'm doing this on. And me Axe is mid level, I'm sure they are even better at lvl 30 and got potatoed.

And yeah, it's usually easy for me too, I just press Iron Skin and charge my axe. The problem is it just doesn't worth a risk of Disruptor came out of nowhere and I will have to go back to running back and gun shortly (and I got that alot too, idk why). So I have to forgo one of the most satisfying part of spiltting things in half for 1/3 of the game.

[Ced23Ric]

Zakalwe: Yeah, okay. Whatever. You don't understand what I am saying. Adieu. I am done chasing you through the loopholes of pointless sideline arguements and veiled insults.

that's what im saying. Also a video would be nice so people can really see the issues you or other people in your team have.

Video Storyboard.

Video begins.

Player stands next to a Runner. Runner explodes. Stagger.

Player stands a bit away from an Ancient. Ancient punches with tentacles. Ranged stagger.

Player stands next to a Charger. Charger punches. Stagger.

Player stands in a room with a Leaper. Leaper leaps. Knockdown.

Player stands next to a Nauseous Crawler. Crawler pukes. Stun.

Video ends.

Description:

The entire toolbox of attack effects besides damage that the Infested faction has.

Tags:

gameplay warframe game design mechanics toolbox

Edited February 3, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[sambarpowder]

Ced, calm down man, don't take the bait.

Also, I tried to list other potential mechanics that can be added to the Infested 'toolbox' to potentially replace stun, and I really fell short.

I can't think of a really cool mechanic that would involve a skill based counter.

[Zakalwe]

Zakalwe: Yeah, okay. Whatever. You don't understand what I am saying. A

I absolutely understand what you're saying, and everyone else here can see that I can from my replies.

I've no idea why you're taking this personally, I've not insulted you once which is also very clear to anyone reading!

Dude, please take a breath and read what I've written again. :/

Also, I tried to list other potential mechanics that can be added to the Infested 'toolbox' to potentially replace stun, and I really fell short.

I can't think of a really cool mechanic that would involve a skill based counter.

Stun is a fine mechanic, imo, the problem is with the delivery system and frequency of use if anything.

Sorry for double post.

No, I don't think melee is a primary either. But there a reason we are ninja/samurai/whatever they called tenno, so they can find a reason for us to use melee and it should be one of the core mechanic of the game.

I deal with Grineer and Corpus with my melee all the time to save ammo, usually against 4-5 at once and my health doesn't even have a dent. And this is Eris and Ceres I'm doing this on. And me Axe is mid level, I'm sure they are even better at lvl 30 and got potatoed.

And yeah, it's usually easy for me too, I just press Iron Skin and charge my axe. The problem is it just doesn't worth a risk of Disruptor came out of nowhere and I will have to go back to running back and gun shortly (and I got that alot too, idk why). So I have to forgo one of the most satisfying part of spiltting things in half for 1/3 of the game.

Honestly? I use melee much more frequently with Infested. I've not found myself feeling restricted in terms of when to use it, I don't ever feel like I can't use my usual style because the game is going to unfairly punish me by spamming frustrating mechanics.

The times I don't use melee aren't because I'm trying to avoid these things, but because engaging in melee with ancients is pretty inefficient.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zakalwe