Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering, Action Disruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool. Please turn it down.

[Ced23Ric]

and I'd really like it if there was a button you could press to recover instantly if timed correctly, or something like that.

I'd rather see the source fixed than add a crutch, if that makes sense.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Thanks for the feedback. When I wrote the initial topic a few weeks back, the response was mixed. Now it seems people start to realize and see the extent of stun and stunlocking in this game.

When my friend and I pick up some keys a couple weeks ago, the prevelance of stunlocking was one of the first things we noticed, as we're both experienced beta testers and glaring problems like this stick out as if they had a neon sign attached.

Were we not experienced testers, we might have quit right then and there because we felt like "This is bull!@#$". But we suffered through it to see if they game improved with a little more time put into it. Luckily it did, and we've continued to play it off and on for a few weeks now.

That said, we are no fonder of the uncreativeness of giving every other enemy a stun/freeze/knockdown/stagger ability that we were when we started.

[Cleverbird]

Infected used to be my favorite faction, due to how much fun they were... Now they're my most hated faction, simply because they have the most stun of any faction

[Redler]

IMO the one that guilty of this crime the most is Infested. Everything they can throw at us pretty can stagger and knockdown (with extra effect like energy and shield stealing and poison too) and they always throw everything to us at once.

Corpus is a fair game. And the only part I don't like about Grineer heavy is that they can do flashbang knockdown thing even when they lie on the ground (which is goddamn stupid imo).

Very good thread Ced.

[Rivy]

You need to run away from them, not just because (new) Chargers nom you for breakfast (and melee stagger you ...), but because Leapers will knock you down, Runners will stagger-burst you and Ancients will ranged-stagger you. It's ironic. In the quest to make the threat bubble of Infested more dangerous and make it stick, the best way to deal with Infested became to avoid the threat bubble even more.

That's something I noticed too. You are always forced to kite the infested. You can't stay and melee the chargers because the runners behind them will start the stagger chain. You can't stay and kill the ancient because of all the of chargers and runners around it. You can't stay and kill the runners because the chargers and ancients will stagger you into hell.

You just can't stay and fight, you have to kite them. That doesn't really make me feel like a badass space ninja (and it's boring too).

[Ced23Ric]

IMO the one that guilty of this crime the most is Infested.

Yeah, the entire Faction is stagger/stun country. Population: You. Makes them dreadful.

You just can't stay and fight, you have to kite them. That doesn't really make me feel like a badass space ninja (and it's boring too).

That is the crux I tried to line out - by making the threat bubbles sticky, avoding the threat bubbles became even more important. It's an arms race.

[ZephyrFlow]

+1 to this bro, the problem still persists even now, so i try to avoid soloing infested maps(specially high levels) because once you f*** up, you're screwed.

[Redler]

So I just got swarm by horde of chargers against a wall.

It wasn't pretty. NERF THEM.

[Deadmice]

+1

I like the new chargers but agree that their chain stun, plus a leaper or 3, plus an acient, plus some runners which all stun is a biiiiit too much. Those chargers hurt too, like a lot lol. Maybe if one of those stuns got changed into a type of slow or something, so you weren't stunned but just slowed down it would make it better.

[Nubsawce]

+1 to this. In general, the base of the game is really good. F2P purchase choices and recent enemy decisions especially with the Infested, as noted here, are really detracting from it in some ways. I hope we can work out solutions on both of these fronts that make a good game better for all parties.

[conX5]

I came looking for a thread like this just to make sure I wasn't missing something...

Kiting as a form of crowd control in specific situations (i.e. complex boss encounters) is one thing. Kiting every single room because it's the only way to survive is just an obnoxious grindy slog that this type of game should probably be exceptionally sensitive toward.

If Chargers were slower, weaker, less damaging, or less numerous it would feel less cheesy (Bouncers from SMNC might be a good design-level comparison), although even then there'd still be redundancy with Leapers and Runners. I do think it'd be nice to have more in-combat uses for these space ninja moves, and tech rolls are always a good way to reward player skill. Combine that with the idea of disrupting by sending the player flying AWAY instead of simply falling to the ground, and things might resemble a crazy sci-fi action movie fight more and 8 dogs jumping on a random civilian less.

Edited February 2, 2013 by conX5

[Mak_Gohae]

So nobody runs while shooting the melee-only enemy but me?

I mean, i WILL run around a whole room several times if i have a huge train following me.

Seriously, when i hear the growl of a charger i do NOTHING but move in all directions but the one they are coming from, once i figure out where they are coming from. And if you have anything but a Fraggor or Scindor and you reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally want to melee them you can actually run pass them while swinging cause enemies DO miss.The Leaper will stop and pick a spot to jump to that you can move away from. Unles you are playing alone and by some tremendously bad luck coming your way there is no way a stun lock should be lasting more than a hit or two.

Here is another tip; while playing with other people dont all stand clustered on top of each other because the chargers long before they get to you pick a target to hit so if you are apart you can see who they pick and while that person is getting jumped they will ignore the rest which give you folks an easy time to cut them up.

Each faction in this game fights differently and for each faction in this game the player must have different tactics to defeat them. You cant rush through all different sides in the same way and expect the same results.

Hell, some one equip enemy radar and this should NEVER happen.

[Ced23Ric]

Thank you for the hints, Mak_Gohae, but you missed the entire point of the thread.

[MJ12]

So nobody runs while shooting the melee-only enemy but me?

I mean, i WILL run around a whole room several times if i have a huge train following me.

Seriously, when i hear the growl of a charger i do NOTHING but move in all directions but the one they are coming from, once i figure out where they are coming from. And if you have anything but a Fraggor or Scindor and you reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally want to melee them you can actually run pass them while swinging cause enemies DO miss.The Leaper will stop and pick a spot to jump to that you can move away from. Unles you are playing alone and by some tremendously bad luck coming your way there is no way a stun lock should be lasting more than a hit or two.

Here is another tip; while playing with other people dont all stand clustered on top of each other because the chargers long before they get to you pick a target to hit so if you are apart you can see who they pick and while that person is getting jumped they will ignore the rest which give you folks an easy time to cut them up.

Each faction in this game fights differently and for each faction in this game the player must have different tactics to defeat them. You cant rush through all different sides in the same way and expect the same results.

Hell, some one equip enemy radar and this should NEVER happen.

If I wanted to play a game where I had to run away from dogs, I'd play Call of Duty. "Difficulty" should always take second fiddle to "fun". If you give people a choice between a game that is difficult because of unfun mechanics (as everyone is already mentioning)... or a game which is easy because it lacks those unfun mechanics, people are going to choose the second game.

Edited February 2, 2013 by MJ12

[Mak_Gohae]

Thank you for the hints, Mak_Gohae, but you missed the entire point of the thread.

I didnt miss the point of the thread but it seems like you missed the point in mine.

What i'm saying is that the tactic that is most successful against the Infested still works even with the addition of yet another enemy that stuns you.

Letting a melee enemy get into melee range is not a good idea and i dont think suggesting the melee enemy be changed so the player has some advantage against it in their method of attack a good way to balance that enemy.

I do think the chargers hit a bit hard cause i was doing the new infested mercury mission with my level 30 loki leveling my heat sword and a group of them actually took down my shields while i stood there swinging around at them. My sword was low level but i dont think it lasted that long swinging away that they had enough time to take them down.

If I wanted to play a game where I had to run away from dogs, I'd play Call of Duty.

"Difficulty" should always take second fiddle to "fun". If you give people a choice between a game that is difficult because of unfun mechanics (as everyone is already mentioning)... or a game which is easy because it lacks those unfun mechanics, people are going to choose the second game.

I find difficulty fun and easy games boring..... so yeah.

Enough people do find difficult games fun that they include difficulty settings in games and people make videos about how they beat the game in a very high difficulty that get lots of views.

By the way.... the situation here isnt THAT difficult. You have enough tools in this game to deal with it. The only times it becomes hell is when soloing and in certain missions that end up throwing too many which, by the way, i have complained about. I am one of the many that have been soloing an Infested mission where it looked like i popped into an Ancient convention and i entered the room with all the free cupcakes. But that is really a matter of number of enemies spawned instead of how the enemies fight.

[MJ12]

I find difficulty fun and easy games boring..... so yeah.

Enough people do find difficult games fun that they include difficulty settings in games and people make videos about how they beat the game in a very high difficulty that get lots of views.

Well yes. Except the thing is, there's no 'difficulty' in fighting Chargers now because you will never, ever be tempted to fight them in any range where they're dangerous, because they kill you way too fast. This doesn't actually add difficulty, it just adds a few bulls**t deaths and teaches you to never melee them, thus reducing the fun of the game and handily eliminating any threat they cause except 'running out of ammo' (because melee is supposed to be a viable combat option from the start). It's hilariously binary. "Do you engage in melee with Chargers y/n? Also if you choose the answer 'y' you end up dying due to stunlock." Difficulty would involve being able to counter their attacks, being able to actually meaningfully melee melee enemies, and so on. Melee is already significantly weaker than firearms, Chargers just make life even more aggravating for anyone who fell into the trap of thinking 'this game has melee weapons as an important component, maybe I should use melee'?

By the way.... the situation here isnt THAT difficult. You have enough tools in this game to deal with it. The only times it becomes hell is when soloing and in certain missions that end up throwing too many which, by the way, i have complained about. I am one of the many that have been soloing an Infested mission where it looked like i popped into an Ancient convention and i entered the room with all the free cupcakes. But that is really a matter of number of enemies spawned instead of how the enemies fight.

And I liked the bugged Ancient spawn more than the stupid Chargers. At least bugged Ancients didn't spawn as often and you could actually use the tools you learned to use, like staggering them via charge attacks, jump-attacks knocking them down, and they didn't have that much HP so armor-piercing damage was okay on them. Sorry, "Too many ancients" is infinitely less annoying than "current status of Chargers".

Edited February 2, 2013 by MJ12

[Mak_Gohae]

Well yes. Except the thing is, there's no 'difficulty' in fighting Chargers now because you will never, ever be tempted to fight them in any range where they're dangerous, because they kill you way too fast. This doesn't actually add difficulty, it just adds a few bulls**t deaths and teaches you to never melee them, thus reducing the fun of the game and handily eliminating any threat they cause except 'running out of ammo' (because melee is supposed to be a viable combat option from the start). It's hilariously binary. "Do you engage in melee with Chargers y/n? Also if you choose the answer 'y' you end up dying due to stunlock." Difficulty would involve being able to counter their attacks, being able to actually meaningfully melee melee enemies, and so on.

The difficulty is making sure they are not able to get to melee range, that's pretty obvious, right?

And people were complaining all over the place about all the stages looking the same yet now we have some people here that want to engage different enemies in the same exact way? Whats point of having different enemies in that scenario? Might as well just have three types of enemies, melee, shooter, heavy, and that's it, then, forget factions too.

Melee is already significantly weaker than firearms, Chargers just make life even more aggravating for anyone who fell into the trap of thinking 'this game has melee weapons as an important component, maybe I should use melee'?

I dont think melee is "significantly" weaker than guns. I dont count numbers but get in the middle of a group with a Scindo charge attack and they are all dead. And a fast attack rate sword is also madness.

And I liked the bugged Ancient spawn more than the stupid Chargers. At least bugged Ancients didn't spawn as often and you could actually use the tools you learned to use, like staggering them via charge attacks, jump-attacks knocking them down, and they didn't have that much HP so armor-piercing damage was okay on them. Sorry, "Too many ancients" is infinitely less annoying than "current status of Chargers".

Well, a rank 12 volt with no extra ammo boxes isnt going to be able to do all of that.

And there were Toxics and Healers too so it was a right old mess for me alone.

[Yurt]

I don't agree with all points, mainly because I have never been stunlocked and killed, never. Maybe if you guys actually KILLED the infested instead of running through all of them you would not be swramed and killed yourself as much.

The chargers are not op because you can simply run and shoot behind you while they're chasing you. When they swarm you completely you can just jump out of the pile and just sprint away. If these were nerfed they would be too easy and present 0 challenge whatsoever. The runner are not op because you can basically kill them in one hit with a headshot, you can always see them coming, they are clearly a distinct color from the leapers, and they only explode once and then are gone. Trying to come up with a way to nerf the stun for an enemy whose main purpose is to run into you and explode is just stupid. The Ancients need a stun as well since if they did not everyone would run past them with no consequences,

Basically I think that all the infested are fine and do not to be balanced at all. You all need to learn how the different factions work and adapt your playstyle accordingly.

[Frazeil]

Don't have time to read all the posts/suggestion so i'll just spew out mine.

Implement a flip up/bounce back mechanism? Limited time window to use this mechanic after being knockdown so you're punished if you allow yourself to get swarmed, but not so much that there's nothing you can do to get yourelf out of it.

Maybe make it a ability for the skill tree that at base would simply spring the player back up, but at later levels (when you should begin doing harder missions) becomes a knock back AoE Melee swing?

Add that rolling makes the player immune to knockbacks and such so rolling is actually worth it too.

[Ced23Ric]

Same approach, same issue. Fixing the source is much, much more sustainable than finding ways to mitigate it.

[MJ12]

I don't agree with all points, mainly because I have never been stunlocked and killed, never. Maybe if you guys actually KILLED the infested instead of running through all of them you would not be swramed and killed yourself as much.

I don't run through infested. The thing is, it takes one mistimed attack to put you into Stunlock Town, Population: You and a million other corpses.

The chargers are not op because you can simply run and shoot behind you while they're chasing you. When they swarm you completely you can just jump out of the pile and just sprint away. If these were nerfed they would be too easy and present 0 challenge whatsoever. The runner are not op because you can basically kill them in one hit with a headshot, you can always see them coming, they are clearly a distinct color from the leapers, and they only explode once and then are gone. Trying to come up with a way to nerf the stun for an enemy whose main purpose is to run into you and explode is just stupid. The Ancients need a stun as well since if they did not everyone would run past them with no consequences,

Play on Pluto or Ceres or Eris and tell me again how these critters aren't OP.

Basically I think that all the infested are fine and do not to be balanced at all. You all need to learn how the different factions work and adapt your playstyle accordingly.

Apparently that 'adapt your playstyle' involves "Never getting into melee combat in a game designed with cool melee combat as part and parcel of the experience." I would rather a faction be too easy rather than being aggravating piles of annoyance specifically designed to punish you for playing the game as it was meant to be played (versus playing it like Gears of War). We already have way too many of those.

[MJ12]

The difficulty is making sure they are not able to get to melee range, that's pretty obvious, right?

And people were complaining all over the place about all the stages looking the same yet now we have some people here that want to engage different enemies in the same exact way? Whats point of having different enemies in that scenario? Might as well just have three types of enemies, melee, shooter, heavy, and that's it, then, forget factions too.

"The difficulty is making sure they are not able to get to melee range, that's pretty obvious, right?" No, that's not difficulty. "Running in the opposite direction of the enemy" is approximately as difficult as breathing. It's also unfun, breaks the pace of the game, and this is terrible in a game that is designed around, and heavily rewards, aggression. See, if Chargers were extremely resistant to gunfire but extra-vulnerable to melee (and didn't have their bullS#&$ stun instadeaths), so to effectively engage them you'd have to close in and risk damage from other Infested, that'd be a 'different' unit. Right now they really aren't engaged in a different way from, say, Grineer Heavies. You stay at a distance and shoot them to bits. How does that change the game? In fact, given that people have noted, multiple times, that melee viability in the lategame requires stacking lategame +Melee Damage mods on a Warframe (sacrificing survivability), while firearm viability is pretty easy, punishing people for getting into melee is the last thing any enemy, let alone a trash mob that spawns in the hundreds, should do.

"Engage enemies in the exact same way"? Look, there's a difference between 'different enemy behavior' and 'different enemy attacks' and 'unfun bullsh**t'. Prod Corpus, Shockwave Moas (most of the time), Grineer Heavies/Powerfists, are 'different enemy behavior/attacks'. Chargers are 'unfun bullsh**t'. Imagine, for example, there was an enemy immune to every gun except the Mk1-Braton. That'd make the game extra-challenging, wouldn't it?

I mean, you'd have to keep a Mk1 Braton around just to fight them. Well sure, it'd also be incredibly unfun because it takes options away.

I dont think melee is "significantly" weaker than guns. I dont count numbers but get in the middle of a group with a Scindo charge attack and they are all dead. And a fast attack rate sword is also madness.

The Scindo with full charge upgrades does something like 200 dps + 100 per additional enemy up to two. A fully upgraded Braton has 514 dps, with no mods slotted in whatsoever, meaning that in every situation a fully upgraded Braton is superior damage-wise. And the Scindo/Fragor are the best melee weapons out right now due to their okay attack speed, uninterruptible animations, and wide attack arcs + huge splash damage effects.

Well, a rank 12 volt with no extra ammo boxes isnt going to be able to do all of that.

And there were Toxics and Healers too so it was a right old mess for me alone.

Yes, and? They were still objectively less bullsh**t than Chargers are now. Because if you were good with timing your melee attacks you could lock down 2-3 Ancients and whittle their health down. Rather than "Are they in melee y/n. If Y, go to "You are dead", if N, continue playing."

Edited February 2, 2013 by MJ12

[Mak_Gohae]

"The difficulty is making sure they are not able to get to melee range, that's pretty obvious, right?" No, that's not difficulty.

How?

You several folks here seem to have trouble doing so. Heh......

"Running in the opposite direction of the enemy" is approximately as difficult as breathing. It's also unfun, breaks the pace of the game, and this is terrible in a game that is designed around, and heavily rewards, aggression.

1. Running away is just a tactic mentioned that, yes like i said, makes the battle easier than running at them and swinging.

2. How is it unfun to successfully kill enemies?

3. How does it break the pace? You are continuing to kill things?

4. How does this game heavily reward aggression? The fact that i can kill things by giving myself room while you are stunlock shows the opposite.

See, if Chargers were extremely resistant to gunfire but extra-vulnerable to melee (and didn't have their bullS#&$ stun instadeaths), so to effectively engage them you'd have to close in and risk damage from other Infested, that'd be a 'different' unit. Right now they really aren't engaged in a different way from, say, Grineer Heavies. You stay at a distance and shoot them to bits.

Yes you can use similar tactics to take them down, what's the problem with that?

How does that change the game? In fact, given that people have noted, multiple times, that melee viability in the lategame requires stacking lategame +Melee Damage mods on a Warframe (sacrificing survivability), while firearm viability is pretty easy, punishing people for getting into melee is the last thing any enemy, let alone a trash mob that spawns in the hundreds, should do.

So yet again you are showing how the tactic of keeping away and shooting is better than jumping in and swinging away yet for some reason you dont see that and you want to STILL jump in and swing away?

"Engage enemies in the exact same way"? Look, there's a difference between 'different enemy behavior' and 'different enemy attacks' and 'unfun bullsh**t'. Prod Corpus, Shockwave Moas (most of the time), Grineer Heavies/Powerfists, are 'different enemy behavior/attacks'. Chargers are 'unfun bullsh**t'. Imagine, for example, there was an enemy immune to every gun except the Mk1-Braton. That'd make the game extra-challenging, wouldn't it?

I mean, you'd have to keep a Mk1 Braton around just to fight them. Well sure, it'd also be incredibly unfun because it takes options away.

Yes, if there was one enemy that required only one gun to kill him that would suck.

What does this have to do with anything?

The Scindo with full charge upgrades does something like 200 dps + 100 per additional enemy up to two. A fully upgraded Braton has 514 dps, with no mods slotted in whatsoever, meaning that in every situation a fully upgraded Braton is superior damage-wise. And the Scindo/Fragor are the best melee weapons out right now due to their okay attack speed, uninterruptible animations, and wide attack arcs + huge splash damage effects.

Like i said, i dont do the math so how many bullets do you need to shoot to do that 514 dmg vs the number of swings that hit multiple enemies.

Yes, and? They were still objectively less bullsh**t than Chargers are now. Because if you were good with timing your melee attacks you could lock down 2-3 Ancients and whittle their health down. Rather than "Are they in melee y/n. If Y, go to "You are dead", if N, continue playing."

So wait, with a rank 12 volt you can take down, like, 5 ancients of different kinds in a room with the normal amounts of mobs running around and some how you have trouble with the dogs? Im sorry but i am calling BS on this whole argument right here.

[UkyoSonoda]

Barring additional effects on disruptor ancient taking your entire shield out in 1 hit regardless of pool size and toxic dealing HP damage regardless of having a shield or not. The Chargers do more damage per hit. And attack faster. And don't appear to stagger when struck with melee or something like a shotgun. Plus they spawn in far greater numbers and are always running at you full speed. Also they seem to have gotten a durability boost as well and now have a lower physical profile making them slightly harder to shoot than before.

TBH a room full of 20 ancients was more fun to deal with before because it was one of those "oh #&%^" moments in the game. With the charger revamp piled with the other enemys there were before fighting infested has changed from somewhat fun close quarters mix of melee and gun combat to "where can I shoot them from that they cant reach me?" with a dash of "damn I got hit then stunlocked then died"

Shooting the new grinder enemies at times feels like trying to shoot a soccer ball while a team of professional soccer players pass it around and bounce it off your head.

[Ced23Ric]

[...]

All of this is irrelevant to the topic. You are not helping, and your assumptions are not only incorrect, but also arrogant and ignorant. Please, unless you start to comment on the actual topic of an overabundance of the stun mechanism as a design choice, see yourself out. Thank you.