Loki Rework

[Paprika]

All the Loki users are gonna pop into this thread just to beat me to a pulp.

 

Now that the Devs have put out the word that they're gonna look at every frame so as to balance them all and make them relevant, I thought I'd do what I can to give my two cents on Loki.

 

Why change Loki when he's the least in need of a rework? Well, he's not perfect. He could be better without being altogether over-powered.

 

If I'm speaking out of my behind and end up getting anything wrong, feel free to let me know.

 

Decoy does not need to be changed. This is always a useful skill, regardless of faction or match type. Because It's so great, I figured that it'd be better to have his other abilities kind of revolve around this one ability. 

 

Teleport Switch is a very interesting ability. A good portion say it has its uses while the another good portion say it is completely situational and useless. I think I'm in between. It has potential, but the main issue is that given the choice between Decoy and Teleport Switch, I'd rather use Decoy. A combination of the two can give you a free-form teleport, but it costs 50 energy, and I honestly would rather just pop Invisibility and wall run to my desired destination. It also has some utility in teams as it allows you to manipulate where allies and enemies are in relation to each other, and I find myself, while ingame, imagining plays I could pull off with this ability, but to my dismay, the plays I have in mind cost to much energy as it involves me using Teleport Switch too many times.

 

Radial disarm is interesting, and it's commonly known that Loki's abilities don't do direct damage. They change the situation and the nature of the problem so it's easier to solve the problem. The issue is that his ultimate does not affect Infested, and that, the range is too little to justify the cost. 

 

Invisibility is invisibility. There's nothing to say about it. Many have grievances with how awesome it is. It's controversial in that it essentially makes the user take no damage for 25 seconds when maxed. After the Devs tinkered around with Rhino's tank mode, Rhino users have cited Loki's invisibility as justification for what was more or less invincibility. 

 

My suggested changes are:

 

Teleport Switch works normally when Decoy hasn't been cast. You can, however, change places with containers or explosive barrels. When Decoy has been cast, a red exclamation mark is placed above its head, signifying that the decoy has its aggro working as intended. Using Teleport Switch on an ally, an enemy, or an inanimate object causes the decoy to switch places with the target instead of Loki. When the decoy switches places with anything, be it Loki, an ally, an enemy, or an explosive Barrel, the exclamation mark transfers to the object that switched places with the decoy. The amount of aggro the decoy had, the object with the exclamation mark now has. The object with the exclamation mark also has armor reduced by 20. If Loki activates Switch Teleport again, the target switches places with the object or individual that has the exclamation mark debuff and receives the debuff. And so on and so forth. If another decoy is created, the new decoy has the debuff, regardless of who had the debuff prior. Have I lost you? I hope not.

 

Radial Disarm works normally, unless a Decoy has been cast. If a Decoy has been cast, the decoy casts Radial Disarm, and Loki casts Radial Blind (Radial Blind but with greater range and with a longer blind duration than that of Excalibur.)

 

The greatest change would be that the abilities would charge stamina, not energy. The amounts would vary, but the costs should be fixed so that each ability can be cast at least once when the stamina bar is full, without any stamina mods. Why did I ask for the Teleport Switch changes when just the Stamina/Energy change is enough to fix the ability's cons? The change opens up lots of tactical possibilities. Honestly, aggro on an explosive barrel? Why the heck not?

 

The next suggestion will provoke lots of flaming.

 

Invisibility will be a passive that activates whenever Loki uses up Stamina.  This includes blocking, running, wall running, the activation of abilities, etc.

 

EDIT: Grammar

Edited July 22, 2013 by Paprika

[RoboDoge]

Loki doesnt need complete rework on skills. Just some minor changes a.k.a Decoy scaling with higher levels and Radial Disarm effect on Infested ( could be damage reduction instead of declawing ).

[Amduscas]

No.

[Paprika]

You can't blame a guy for trying, eh? Anyways, yeah, the changes I'm proposing are quite drastic. Just some minor tweaks would be enough to make Loki more playable. I'm still gonna leave this thread running to see what more people think.

[Tesrac]

I like the increased synergy between the decoy and switch teleport, but I think it would be too powerful really....hey Vor, play with your minions you fool...but the stamina cost to abilities would be too much of a deviation from the system that everyone else uses....not too mention it is MUCH easier to regenerate stamina. 

[dionnoel]

Yeeaaaaaaaaa ummm.........pretty much what robodog said buti do agree with you on one thing switch teleport does need reworking just not how you would like but nice ideas tho it was worth a try

[Sirabot]

All the Loki users are gonna pop into this thread just to beat me to a pulp.

 

 

And here I am.

To say.

No.

 

-I'd suggest Blinding the infested with radial disarm similar to excal's radial blind along with it's current effect.

 

-Right now, my health is 213. My life depends on Invisibility and I use it only when I'm forced too (I'm taking health damage or about to) and that doesn't always save me.

 

-Decoy could explode into a flash of light, Also blinding enemies. But not harming them. 

 

Not much more needs to be done.

 

Loki is a trickster, his moves need more "trick"

[Paprika]

My suggestions are a bit overboard, especially the ones about invisibility and stamina skills, but I honestly think that the Radial Disarm suggestion I made is worth taking a look at. The comments so far agree on the fact that Radial disarm could do with some sort of cc for infested, and my suggestion does just that. It's pretty much exactly the same thing that everyone's been asking for, just with some interesting mechanics in play. 

 

(Throw in a Decoy where you want the Radial Disarm to be cast as opposed to going there yourself and putting yourself in danger).

 

Reasons for not changing Invisibility are apparent. Loki can't take damage. I concede this.

 

I didn't suggest any changes for Decoy.

 

The main point against my Teleport Switch rework is that it might be over-powered, and I can see that. I still think there is a need to take a look at this skill, not because it's useless (it's not), but because it's way too situational. 

[Dasmir]

Loki doesnt need complete rework on skills. Just some minor changes a.k.a Decoy scaling with higher levels and Radial Disarm effect on Infested ( could be damage reduction instead of declawing ).

 

and the annoying sentinel bug..

[Kielix7]

You want flame?
I'll give you something to flame.

I personally hate Decoy and would love to see it removed from the game.

Come at me.

[TwiceDead]

You want flame?

I'll give you something to flame.

I personally hate Decoy and would love to see it removed from the game.

Come at me.

 

I can beat that.

I personally hate all ultimate(slot 4) abilities and would love to see them all removed from the game.

Hit me. 

[MeteorKing]

No.

And here I am.

To say.

No.

Loki just needs bug fixes.  He's not [as] good vs infected, neither is volt, so what?

 

Switch tele, like you said, isn't necessary.  In a situation where you're min/maxing it is normally seen as best to drop tele, but it is very fun to use and can let you get around a map that much quicker. That being said, I do like the idea of being able to switch tele with anything.  

[Troublechutor]

All the Loki users are gonna pop into this thread just to beat me to a pulp.

 

Normally, yes... I'd go at this with hammer and tongs.  However, if they don't fix solo-loki play so that its possible (The basic rule here is, if Loki can't solo a reactor defense, then Loki is out of balance.) then most certainly something needs fixing.

 

My 2 cents 

 

1.  Decoy needs to scale with the mission difficulty.  Decoy on Mercury is immortal, and on Pluto its not worth the casting time to put it out there.  I'm not sure where the proper balance point is for decoy, but it needs to be weaker on early levels and stronger for late ones... seems to me that if you can't get 10 solid seconds of aggro on a defense mission, its not doing its job.

 

2.  Switch teleport.  I often debate just repolarizing it to a vitality slot.  Then, once in a rare mission, it saves my bacon... either I can switch out a heavy that's blocking my path and cover dangerous ground in the process, or I use it just to get the hostage/myself unstuck... it's rarely a game changer, but when it is, its brilliant.  Honestly, it needs to be cheaper to cast... its rarely needed, but when it is, and you're already out of energy, you curse it all the same.

 

3.  Invisibity.  The reason Loki can't be fun to play right now, and the only thing keeping loki in the game.  Either you are one mis-click from mission failure, or you are invisible at all times.  Loki is basically not in the game right now, and thats due to the changes in Build 9.  Sure, you can solo anything other than defense in the game, but only as long as you can remain invisible... when the energy dips too low to keep it going, you might as well abort the mission.  The only changes that will work here involve making the game less difficult so that invis isn't a full time requirement.  Basically, you don't need a decoy if you have invis, you don't need to switch teleport while ou can invis, and you don't need to disarm anything when you can invis, so why do I have anything else on Loki?  I honestly can't tell you other than 3x formas to make me MOAR BROKEN just to address build 9 flaws is stupid and unfun.

 

4.  Radial disarm.  2x the energy of invisibility with no added benefit.  I only use it on defense missions or when I need ez-farm and have tons of extra energy to waste.  Still, its cool and all, but mostly its just a time saver... "Oh look, 30 chargers all bunched up in one room" ... decoy... wait 2 seconds... disarm... collect energy and mats and move on.

 

Basically build 9 sucks for loki.  All you need is invis and to stay off defense and high-level rescue and you're a god.... or you're worthless.

 

Assuming the build 9 paradigm is here to stay, I'd rework loki like this :

 

Decoy : Creates a decoy that is invulnerable for 5 seconds (base time, improves with levels) that also moves around and pulls full aggro of everything in the area.  When the decoy despawns, everything that was chasing it is stunned for ~2 seconds.

 

Invisibility : Full invisiblity for 15 seconds (includes sentinel if any) and can be cast on friendly units (including the hostage/pod).  If the invisible unit attacks anything it becomes visible again and the target takes it takes full, unmodified, red crit damage from the weapon used.  Sentinel weapons would need to be disabled while invisible.

 

Switch teleport : Target switched is "tagged" as loki for 4 seconds after the switch so mobs will attack it.  Effect is canceled if any tenno/allied unit attacks the switched unit.  Unit switched is stunned for ~2 seconds.  

 

Radial disarm : Same basic effect as now except that runners/leapers should be turned into crawlers, crawlers would be killed like chargers,  ancients should be knocked back and staggered, and any normally melee unit (flameblades, sawmen, scorpions) should take huge damage (if not auto-killed).  The problem with radial disarm is that it provides no advantage over simply going invis and murdering the units affected, but with some knock-back and CC effects, it would be more useful in "oh-S#&$" moments or for pod defense.  It doesn't become a nuke unless cast twice, but the option to just kill everything would remain.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Troublechutor

[Kielix7]

I absolutely hate Decoy because it literally makes the game too easy, and to be honest, this game is easy enough. (At any level besides super-end game)

 

Also added to the fact the AI is dumb as a sack of wet bricks. Giving us an ability to create a decoy would work on real people for maybe .3 seconds. It's really something pathetic and mind-numbing, watching 40 corpus shoot the same decoy for a good 10 seconds, then just looking at it going "Durr, why didn't it die yet?"

 

And I know it sounds stupid, complaining about realism in a video game (with f*cking space ninjas that use other-worldly abilities), but come on. Someone else besides me has to have looked at that and went "God, these are the stupidest Corpus soldiers I have ever seen."

Edited July 24, 2013 by Kielix7

[MeteorKing]

and to be honest, this game is easy enough. (At any level besides super-end game)

LOLSOEZ

 

Pretentious and unnecessary statement... People will say that any game is easy so long as it's not annoyingly and egregiously unforgiving, and even then you'll still hear people claiming the difficulty could be increased.  

 

Edit: Spelling.

Edited July 24, 2013 by MeteorKing

[Paprika]

So far we've come to the conclusion that:

 

- With Invisibility present, there's no reason to cast anything else.

- Switch Teleport isn't useless, it's just that when you want to use it, you can't because you've used the energy for something else or because you'd rather save the energy for something else.

- Decoy looks ridiculous. It does. Truly. But that doesn't mean that the skill should exist. If it moved around, it'd look like less of a joke.

- Decoy is game-breaking early-game and pointless late-game. Scaling needs to be fixed. Or some different mechanics should come into play when determining it's duration.

- We're divided on Radial Disarm. We all agree that it needs to be modified to affect infested. Some people say that with the new Update, the Ulti is way more relevant as the damage output on enemies has increased by much. Some people say that it costs too much for what it does, and Invisibility is a always a better option.

- Loki's too dependent on Invisibility. Making Loki squishy makes sense, but making Loki reliant on Invisibility is just not fun.

 

EDIT:

 

As an added point, the Devs have realized that increasing the difficulty is a must, but they've just increased stats on the enemies. They haven't reworked the AI, as they should have.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Paprika

[Kielix7]

LOLSOEZ

 

Pretentious and unnecessary statement... People will say that any game is easy so long as it's not annoyingly and egregiously unforgiving, and even then you'll still hear people claiming the difficulty could be increased.  

 

Edit: Spelling.

 

Pretentious and unnecessary? Why, because you disagree with me?

This game IS easy. If you spent more time analyzing the game instead of getting in people's faces, you would see that.

[Paprika]

It is easy, and it isn't. It's easy in that the AI is horrid. The Grineer and Corpus can't tell their left from their right.

 

It's hard in that the Armor buffs given to mobs messed up everyone's builds. There are now only a handful of  load-outs that can be taken to end-game. It's hard in the wrong ways, and you'll find that those who've picked out their weapons with numbers and efficiency in mind won't see any change before and after Update 9. 

 

The armor buffs have hampered the more risky players, the ones who've been sporting "avant-garde" builds. 

 

Feel free to agree or disagree with me... in a PM. It's quickly becoming an off-topic, flame session. I implore you, stay on topic. 

[Kielix7]

It is easy, and it isn't. It's easy in that the AI is horrid. The Grineer and Corpus can't tell their left from their right.

 

It's hard in that the Armor buffs given to mobs messed up everyone's builds. There are now only a handful of  load-outs that can be taken to end-game. It's hard in the wrong ways, and you'll find that those who've picked out their weapons with numbers and efficiency in mind won't see any change before and after Update 9. 

 

The armor buffs have hampered the more risky players, the ones who've been sporting "avant-garde" builds. 

 

Feel free to agree or disagree with me... in a PM. It's quickly becoming an off-topic, flame session. I implore you, stay on topic. 

 

Looping back into discussion, part of the point I was trying to make is that I despise Loki's Decoy because it has the effect of making this game stupidly easy.

 

Like you said, Grineer can't tell up from down, nor a Decoy from a real Warframe, and would rather smack it with their guns 25 times until it simply doesn't exist instead of moving to another target (like an actual Warframe or the cryopod) because the AI is pretty damn stupid.

 

Decoy and Molt both have this effect, which is one reason why i said I would like to see them removed. (On top of the inconsistencies in difficulty and so forth)

[Paprika]

Now.. On Topic, let's start one skill at a time. We'll leave Decoy for later Kielix7. 

 

Since Invisibility seems to be a hot topic, let's start with that.

 

- Lokis need Invisibility to save their behinds because of their innate squishiness.

- It's becoming a go to skill. Nobody uses any of the other skills (not true, I'm just generalizing).

- There is little "trick" or "skill" involved when people just hit Invisibility and run around pegging enemies.

 

 

Invisibility : Full invisiblity for 15 seconds (includes sentinel if any) and can be cast on friendly units (including the hostage/pod).  If the invisible unit attacks anything it becomes visible again and the target takes it takes full, unmodified, red crit damage from the weapon used.  Sentinel weapons would need to be disabled while invisible.

 

 

This isn't a bad idea. It allows people to hit Invisibility and run away. So long as the user doesn't attack someone, the Invisibility remains. Invisibility deactivating when Loki damages enemies is great as it discourages people from using this skill as a Mario Star. Invisibility should NOT deactivate when using any of his other abilities, encouraging players to get more creative.

 

Cwierz also suggested that the Invisibility can stay as is, but if Loki deals damage, the enemies can attack in the direction from which the damage was dealt. I like this suggestion as it solves the problems posed by Invisibility without changing the ability by much, and because it adds a new angle to enemy AI.

 

Does anyone have anything to add or refute?

 

EDIT:

 

Many have pointed out the Sentinel bug, so yeah, Loki's Invisibility should also cloak Sentinels.

 

Added another suggestion.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Paprika

[Phoenix86]

I'd just change the following:

 

- Invisibility: now cloaks the sentinel too

- Radial Disarm: goes through walls, covers, etc... add a stun effect X seconds

- Switch Teleport: after switching the enemy it will have your same aspect and the enemies will shoot him thinking it's you!! (for X seconds)

 

the last one would perfectly suite the Loki theme imho

Edited July 24, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Bakercompany86]

I'd just change the following:

 

- Invisibility: now cloaks the sentinel too

- Radial Disarm: goes through walls, covers, etc... add a stun effect X seconds

- Switch Teleport: after switching the enemy it will have your same aspect and the enemies will shoot him thinking it's you!! (for X seconds)

I'd make the Radial Disarm stun a snare.  Still very effective, keeps it balanced.

[Paprika]

I'd make the Radial Disarm stun a snare.  Still very effective, keeps it balanced.

I actually wouldn't mind Radial Disarm having a snare. It would help tons against Infested.

[Dasmir]

I'd just change the following:

 

- Invisibility: now cloaks the sentinel too

- Radial Disarm: goes through walls, covers, etc... add a stun effect X seconds

- Switch Teleport: after switching the enemy it will have your same aspect and the enemies will shoot him thinking it's you!! (for X seconds)

 

the last one would perfectly suite the Loki theme imho

 

+ 1

[Phoenix86]

I'd make the Radial Disarm stun a snare.  Still very effective, keeps it balanced.

 

well i proposed a stun because just imagine the skill from the enemy's point of view

 

A guy in front of you move his hands and suddently your gun, along with all the guns of your friends, simply explode!

I would be shocked! A stun would fit perfectly the reaction :)

 

edit: X seconds must not be a lot... soldiers would recover fast both from the illusion of switch teleport and the explosion of radial disarm... i would propose a Stun effect / Illusion effect of 1-5 seconds based on skill level... like: 1-2-3-5

Edited July 24, 2013 by Phoenix86