Point Of Mastery Requirements

[HammerHead90]

Hello

 

I was quite surprised (and mad) when I learned that Supra has a rank 7 mastery requirement, making it impossible to craft for me. That leads to the question - what is it for? I'd understand some harder to use weapons to have those kind of restrictions, like Ogris which can easily kill the owner or sniper rifles which require knowledge of enemy weakspots to use effetively. That's not really the case with Supra, which is very similar to easy to use Gorgon.

 

Smash me with your opinions, rub my rank 4 noobishness in my face!

[Aigloblam]

Personally i think its DE's way of adding more pseudo-exclusive content, without requiring you to buy it with Plat. If you want it, you have to prove that you have fought long enough to deserve it. I dont agree with it, but i think thats the idea.
 

Im the only one in my clan of 70 people that has the rank to use that stuff....yet all of us contributed to it, because we know that eventually everyone will be able to test these new things out.

 

Rank 4 is only a Noob when you compare it to rank 10 or so. The vast majority of Warframe players seem to be lvl 3 and 4.

[Meenmu]

The point of mastery requirements is to discourage you from liking any one weapon enough to grow attached to it. Kinda the opposite of the whole "become one with your weapon" or "think of a weapon as an extension of your body." Rather it sorta supports an "all is transient" kind of mindset. It is to keep you from staying with the weapons you like, and forcing you to powerlevel a bunch of weapons you hate on kiste just so you can get the ones that sound cool but have high mastery requirements.

Edit: But also, yeah, what the guy above me said. Proving you are worthy to harness the power of the super duper supra.

DE says that the purpose of the system is to encourage you to explore your options and try out new equipment, or something like that. I love a lot of the decisions DE makes, but that is one feature I just cannot agree with. Many weapons already look really cool, and I would try them out on my own anyway, without having some system necessitate that I do in order to access higher level content. 

Edit again: No longer know what I am typing. It's time to stop posting. Good night.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Meenmu

[ChaoticVice777]

The point of mastery requirements is to discourage you from liking any one weapon enough to grow attached to it. Kinda the opposite of the whole "become one with your weapon" or "think of a weapon as an extension of your body." Rather it sorta supports an "all is transient" kind of mindset. It is to keep you from staying with the weapons you like, and forcing you to powerlevel a bunch of weapons you hate on kiste just so you can get the ones that sound cool but have high mastery requirements.

 

Actually, some of the clan weapons are the most powerful weapons in the game:

 

1) Lanka wins, hands down. This weapon combines most of the positive benefits of the bows with the sniper rifles while having an incredibly good base damage and damage type.

 

2) Shotguns - Not applicable for now. Future updates, perhaps?

 

3) The Dera and Flux Rifles are better than the Braton and Boltor because even if they have limited range and travel time, they have perfect accuracy, stagger, and/or armor ignore.

 

4) The Supra is a complete upgrade of the Gorgon.

 

5) Acrid wins by a mile, making even the Despair, as "overpowered" as they are (being the better versions of the Kunai and one of the few secondaries that are not significantly affected by terrible armor scaling), feel inferior.

[HammerHead90]

I see the point now, but it defeats itself. I do want to try out the new stuff, I wans to craft every clan weapon I can - now I see I cannot. That's why I'm making a Gratakartaka now... Damn, I really wanted to build Supra and Nova at the same time to level up both of them - now I see it's impossible for at least a while. I have a truckload of melee weapons (back from the CB alerts), so I might "try them out" (leech XP of pubbies/do mobile defences with understanding bros). Wait, did I just said leeching XP, which is a big problem on pubs? Yeah, guess that's the cause of this behavior.

No fun allowed.

 

@Chaotic - Of course the clan weapons should be one of the most powerful, aside from the Prime versions - that's what endgame is for. I really love the Dera, but at the same time, I still use Braton sometimes.

[ChaoticVice777]

I see the point now, but it defeats itself. I do want to try out the new stuff, I wans to craft every clan weapon I can - now I see I cannot. That's why I'm making a Gratakartaka now... Damn, I really wanted to build Supra and Nova at the same time to level up both of them - now I see it's impossible for at least a while. I have a truckload of melee weapons (back from the CB alerts), so I might "try them out" (leech XP of pubbies/do mobile defences with understanding bros). Wait, did I just said leeching XP, which is a big problem on pubs? Yeah, guess that's the cause of this behavior.

No fun allowed.

 

@Chaotic - Of course the clan weapons should be one of the most powerful, aside from the Prime versions - that's what endgame is for. I really love the Dera, but at the same time, I still use Braton sometimes.

 

Of course! A good F2P shooter game should creates new content while addressing power creeps so that even the "lower" tier weapon can still be used effectively. Given the fact the Tenno are coined "space ninja", and Warframe's now opened up another avenue/market for new content.

 

I had to go through the "grind" of Mastery Rank 7 myself, but I tried my best to make it less of a "grind" by alternating weapons or even weapon sets that I dislike with weapons I wanted to try. For example, I've combined the Grakata (terrible weapon in its current state), Twin Vipers (always wanted to try the machine pistols), and the Fragor (to explore the benefits of other heavy melee weapons). I've ranked them all out, sold them, and I am confident in stating that I didn't necessarily think it was much of a "grind".

Edited July 25, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[Aigloblam]

Of course! A good F2P shooter game should creates new content while addressing power creeps so that even the "lower" tier weapon can still be used effectively. Given the fact the Tenno are coined "space ninja", and Warframe's now opened up another avenue/market for new content.

 

I had to go through the "grind" of Mastery Rank 7 myself, but I tried my best to make it less of a "grind" by alternating weapons or even weapon sets that I dislike with weapons I wanted to try. For example, I've combined the Grakata (terrible weapon in its current state), Twin Vipers (always wanted to try the machine pistols), and the Fragor (to explore the benefits of other heavy melee weapons). I've ranked them all out, sold them, and I am confident in stating that I didn't necessarily think it was much of a "grind".

There are no Bad weapons, just weapons that don't fit your playstyle. I've seen people do amazing things with a Grakata...If built right(Crit build), its honestly one of the most powerful weapons in the game, you just have to know exactly how to use it. (With the enemies 8-14m away, short bursts, starting at center mass so that the recoil makes it a head shot)

[ChaoticVice777]

There are no Bad weapons, just weapons that don't fit your playstyle. I've seen people do amazing things with a Grakata...If built right(Crit build), its honestly one of the most powerful weapons in the game, you just have to know exactly how to use it. (With the enemies 8-14m away, short bursts, starting at center mass so that the recoil makes it a head shot)

 

It's fine to have a low base damage balance itself out with decent critical and decent critical damage. Here's an example, a Grakata vs, Braton comparison:

 

I figured it was for balancing purposes that the fire rate for the Grakata (20.0) was nearly double that of the Braton (11.3) while cutting base damage (9.0 vs. 20.0) and boosting critical damage (200% vs. 150%).

 

The main problem with the Grakata is its base crit, 7.5%. While triple the value of the Braton, you're not necessarily going to see a significant number of "yellow numbers"/critical hits without critical-related mod cards. While you're slotting on such cards on the Grakata, you can disregard them on the Braton and focus on damage and elements. This eventually leads to the pointless "Forma and super-charge to make a weapon good" argument.

 

Grakata needs the Forma and super-charging far more than the Braton while being less effective overall. It's fine to have superior weapons if they have higher resource costs/requirements and you dedicated the money/time towards fulfilling them. The Grakata vs. Braton comparison is the opposite; the current Grakata needs more resources, but you're gimping yourself with it.

[Aigloblam]

It's fine to have a low base damage balance itself out with decent critical and decent critical damage. Here's an example, a Grakata vs, Braton comparison:

 

I figured it was for balancing purposes that the fire rate for the Grakata (20.0) was nearly double that of the Braton (11.3) while cutting base damage (9.0 vs. 20.0) and boosting critical damage (200% vs. 150%).

 

The main problem with the Grakata is its base crit, 7.5%. While triple the value of the Braton, you're not necessarily going to see a significant number of "yellow numbers"/critical hits without critical-related mod cards. While you're slotting on such cards on the Grakata, you can disregard them on the Braton and focus on damage and elements. This eventually leads to the pointless "Forma and super-charge to make a weapon good" argument.

 

Grakata needs the Forma and super-charging far more than the Braton while being less effective overall. It's fine to have superior weapons if they have higher resource costs/requirements and you dedicated the money/time towards fulfilling them. The Grakata vs. Braton comparison is the opposite; the current Grakata needs more resources, but you're gimping yourself with it.

Generally i feel that after a Forma has been used on a weapon, its a fundamentally different weapon.  So i don't even count those.

 

The main problem with the Grakata is its base crit, 7.5%. While triple the value of the Braton, you're not necessarily going to see a significant number of "yellow numbers"/critical hits without critical-related mod cards.

Totally true, which is why we use those exact mods...Crit scaling is quite different from simple damage scaling. You are taking the chance that you are going to get enough crits to make up for the lack of pure damage, and in this case, the Grakata definitely does. The biggest help is the Split Chamber. Since you are firing double the shots without using double the ammo, you are effectively doubling the crit rate AND the damage.

 

I dont particularly like it, since it doesnt fit my playstyle, but i've seen what it can do, without forma....and its impressive.

[HammerHead90]

Excuse me for posting offtopic (in my own topic regardless), but what does using Forma on a weapon does? From all I saw, only thing it does is adding a polarity slot, right? I'm still at the mod level where I don't use up all the mod capacity, so I don't see the point myself.

[ChaoticVice777]

Generally i feel that after a Forma has been used on a weapon, its a fundamentally different weapon.  So i don't even count those.

 

The main problem with the Grakata is its base crit, 7.5%. While triple the value of the Braton, you're not necessarily going to see a significant number of "yellow numbers"/critical hits without critical-related mod cards.

Totally true, which is why we use those exact mods...Crit scaling is quite different from simple damage scaling. You are taking the chance that you are going to get enough crits to make up for the lack of pure damage, and in this case, the Grakata definitely does. The biggest help is the Split Chamber. Since you are firing double the shots without using double the ammo, you are effectively doubling the crit rate AND the damage.

 

I dont particularly like it, since it doesnt fit my playstyle, but i've seen what it can do, without forma....and its impressive.

 

I've found that adding Rank 8 Serration and maxed Split Chamber made the Grakata more effective than adding the same Split Chamber, maxed Point Strike, and a Rank 2 Vital Sense.

 

Critical scaling is quite different from damage scaling, but the Grakata doesn't have enough base critical to start off with (i.e. the main problem).

 

EDIT:

 

Excuse me for posting offtopic (in my own topic regardless), but what does using Forma on a weapon does? From all I saw, only thing it does is adding a polarity slot, right? I'm still at the mod level where I don't use up all the mod capacity, so I don't see the point myself.

 

 

Polarities halve the cost of certain mods, assuming the polarity of these mods are matched with the polarity of the mod slot. That's why Forma are excellent to have, since they allow you to "min-max" weapon damage or Warframe effectiveness.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[Aigloblam]

Excuse me for posting offtopic (in my own topic regardless), but what does using Forma on a weapon does? From all I saw, only thing it does is adding a polarity slot, right? I'm still at the mod level where I don't use up all the mod capacity, so I don't see the point myself.

It doesnt just add one, it can change a polarity too. Doing this makes it easier to put on the mods that you want, giving you a much wider range for the weapon.

 

Granted this is a Frame....but its the same principle. Count the slots there....There is absolutely NO way to get this many mods, at that high a rank, onto a frame without a Forma.

http://imgur.com/hfm983c

[ChaoticVice777]

It doesnt just add one, it can change a polarity too. Doing this makes it easier to put on the mods that you want, giving you a much wider range for the weapon.

 

Granted this is a Frame....but its the same principle. Count the slots there....There is absolutely NO way to get this many mods, at that high a rank, onto a frame without a Forma.

http://imgur.com/hfm983c

 

Well, actually...

 

[Aigloblam]

 

Well, actually...

 

 

I have 74 slots worth of mods on, You have 59.

That D slot helps a lot, its going to be my next forma Target. :)

[ChaoticVice777]

lol...Yeah that D slot helps a lot. I dont have the patience to count the slots though :)

 

 

I've basically covered all ten slots (59 mod energy used), with one more mod energy for maxing Redirection someday. With Frost Prime, the Vitality rarely goes into use, only being used when I'm fighting Toxics, tanking Orokin Void lasers, and encountering the Stalker.

[Aigloblam]

I've basically covered all ten slots (59 mod energy used), with one more mod energy for maxing Redirection someday. With Frost Prime, the Vitality rarely goes into use, only being used when I'm fighting Toxics, tanking Orokin Void lasers, and encountering the Stalker.

And thats totally fine...but what point does that serve? We aren't talking about the usefulness of certain mods, we are talking about the advantages of Forma. The cold hard fact is that using a Forma will cut the cost of a Mod, leaving more slots open for either higher rank on that mod, or more for other mods to level higher.

[grillv20]

 

Well, actually...

 

 

 

 

hooooly aspect ratio

[Aigloblam]

hooooly aspect ratio

And if he were to use a Forma on that Aura slot, it would give him 11 more ranks...which could max out vitality and redirection, and have enough left for a max snow globe.

....no max snow globe? Thats like having an Excalibur without a Max Slash Dash.....thats just scary and wrong.

[ChaoticVice777]

And thats totally fine...but what point does that serve? We aren't talking about the usefulness of certain mods, we are talking about the advantages of Forma. The cold hard fact is that using a Forma will cut the cost of a Mod, leaving more slots open for either higher rank on that mod, or more for other mods to level higher.

 

 

Basically, I could have treat the "D" slot containing Vitality as an empty mod slot with no polarities on it. It's literally a luxury mod for me (though more useful than Marathon).

 

And if he were to use a Forma on that Aura slot, it would give him 11 more ranks...which could max out vitality and redirection, and have enough left for a max snow globe.

....no max snow globe? Thats like having an Excalibur without a Max Slash Dash.....thats just scary and wrong.

 

Maxing Snow Globe increases the slowdown effect when enemies enter the Snow Globe. The default slowdown is satisfactory, and if I'm letting enemies into the Snow Globe itself, they better be high leveled beyond all belief.

 

Although to be fair, I also have a maxed out Snow Globe currently sitting in my inventory (it was at Rank 2 of 3 when I had made that screenshot).

[Aigloblam]

 

 

 

Basically, I could have treat the "D" slot containing Vitality as an empty mod slot with no polarities on it. It's literally a luxury mod for me (though more useful than Marathon).

 

 

Maxing Snow Globe increases the slowdown effect when enemies enter the Snow Globe. The default slowdown is satisfactory, and if I'm letting enemies into the Snow Globe itself, they better be high leveled beyond all belief.

 

Although to be fair, I also have a maxed out Snow Globe currently sitting in my inventory (it was at Rank 2 of 3 when I had made that screenshot).

 

And this im sure fits your playstyle perfectly, but you are covering up for the fact that you have unmaxed powers by just saying "i dont use them". Thats not the point, the point is not your playstyle, the point is capacity of mods in a frame. There is no Satisfactory status of a mod, if you have the space, its always going to be better to have a max ranked mod, rather than a half maxed one.

Are you going to honestly sit there and tell me that using the setup in that screen, that you are just fine with lvl 135+ mobs?

[ChaoticVice777]

And this im sure fits your playstyle perfectly, but you are covering up for the fact that you have unmaxed powers by just saying "i dont use them". Thats not the point, the point is not your playstyle, the point is capacity of mods in a frame. There is no Satisfactory status of a mod, if you have the space, its always going to be better to have a max ranked mod, rather than a half maxed one.

Are you going to honestly sit there and tell me that using the setup in that screen, that you are just fine with lvl 135+ mobs?

 

Wait, let me get this straight:

 

My play style is my own. Therefore, I'm covering up the fact that by having an unmaxed Snow Globe as well as making excuses and saying I don't use it.

 

*sputters*

 

/mind-blown

 

Moving on...

 

I have the space, but I like sharing mods between Warframes. Ever thought of that? My Excalibur has three Forma's and no super-charge. If I maxed out anything else besides Redirection (i.e. one mod point), he would basically hit the 30 mark?

 

And yes, I would be fine using my Warframe setup in that screenshot. I've successfully completed Tier 3 Orokin Void missions (Level 130 Corrupted) as well as Wave 40 pre-Update 9 Narcissus (Level 168 Corpus). As for the weapon setup, obviously not. +1 for terrible armor scaling.

[Tatersail]

mastery simply makes you level guns, it keeps you in the game Grinding the Warfarm, instead of seeing there is no content... the Grind is the content and quitting.

 

I think... if Acrid/Ogris wasn't mastery rank capped a new unranked fresh to the game player would join,

ask whats the best weapon in game.

Oh.. acrid, Ok....

Join broframe or any of the 1000s of random clans,  Craft an acrid/Ogris....

And Never use any other weapon in the game?   since... there is no point, they are all vastly inferior.

Mastery Forces you to play with all the Trash guns,

 

You're forced toLevel all the unbalanced whoops we messed up, this gun sucks, Oh sorry this gun doesn't Deal True damage guns....  To unlock the Best weapon.

 

This is why Kunai/Despair should be mastery rank 5 or 6

Edited July 25, 2013 by Tatersail

[ChaoticVice777]

mastery simply makes you level guns.

 

I think... if Acrid/Ogris wasn't mastery rank capped a new unranked fresh to the game player would join,

ask whats the best weapon in game.

Oh.. acrid, Ok....

Join broframe or any of the 1000s of random clans,  Craft an acrid/Ogris....

And Never use any other weapon in the game?   since... there is no point.

Mastery Forces you to play with all the Trash guns,

 

you have to try all the unbalanced whoops we messed up the balance and this gun sucks, Oh sorry this gun doesn't Deal True damage guns....  To unlock the Best weapon.

 

This is why Kunai/Despair should be mastery rank 5 or 6

 

I like the Mastery system for Warframe, though I do think that people adding Forma to their Warframes/weapons should also gain diminishing returns of Mastery EXP.

 

Mastery does not force you to play with all the trash weapons. It does force you to use some underwhelming weapons for sure.

 

And honestly, if the armor scaling issue were to be addressed, there would be less talk about how these certain weapons look vastly overpowered than others..

[Aigloblam]

Wait, let me get this straight:

 

My play style is my own. Therefore, I'm covering up the fact that by having an unmaxed Snow Globe as well as making excuses and saying I don't use it.

 

*sputters*

 

/mind-blown

 

Moving on...

 

I have the space, but I like sharing mods between Warframes. Ever thought of that? My Excalibur has three Forma's and no super-charge. If I maxed out anything else besides Redirection (i.e. one mod point), he would basically hit the 30 mark?

 

And yes, I would be fine using my Warframe setup in that screenshot. I've successfully completed Tier 3 Orokin Void missions (Level 130 Corrupted) as well as Wave 40 pre-Update 9 Narcissus (Level 168 Corpus). As for the weapon setup, obviously not. +1 for terrible armor scaling.

What im saying is that this whole thread isnt for you, or me either one. Since you can handle anything with what you have, there really is nothing wrong with your setup. But for somebody else, a forma can still be a very powerful tool.

Also, the idea of using 3 forma on one frame, without having already used a Potato on it, is absolutely insane, playstyle or not. Instead of doubling ALL the slots, you are doubling three. Not only that, adding a potato isnt going to mean ranking the frame up again. That is literally the least efficient way of making a frame more powerful. You are buying a $15k set of Tires, for a stock Van.

 

I like the Mastery system for Warframe, though I do think that people adding Forma to their Warframes/weapons should also gain diminishing returns of Mastery EXP.

I totally agree.

 

I can't call you Wrong, because whatever insane things you are doing, are apparently working very well, in fact they seem to be working as well as what im doing..... So im going to have to settle for calling you "Extremely Unconventional" or possibly "Astonishingly Eccentric"

[ChaoticVice777]

What im saying is that this whole thread isnt for you, or me either one. Since you can handle anything with what you have, there really is nothing wrong with your setup. But for somebody else, a forma can still be a very powerful tool.

Also, the idea of using 3 forma on one frame, without having already used a Potato on it, is absolutely insane, playstyle or not. Instead of doubling ALL the slots, you are doubling three. Not only that, adding a potato isnt going to mean ranking the frame up again. That is literally the least efficient way of making a frame more powerful. You are buying a $15k set of Tires, for a stock Van.

I like the Mastery system for Warframe, though I do think that people adding Forma to their Warframes/weapons should also gain diminishing returns of Mastery EXP.

I totally agree.

I can't call you Wrong, because whatever insane things you are doing, are apparently working very well, in fact they seem to be working as well as what im doing..... So im going to have to settle for calling you "Extremely Unconventional" or possibly "Astonishingly Eccentric"

Obviously, Forma are a powerful tool.

You have to take into account that I'm a free player, NOT a paying player. I don't have the ability to get platinum beyond giveaways. Getting Forma are far more common than Orokin Reactors and Catalysts. I have 16 Forma blueprints and 2 already made Forma in my inventory.

Call it insane, but here's my Excalibur build. Unless you want me to starting replacing ability polarities, there's not much space left. I COULD polarize my Excalibur another time and insert a Streamline or make Energy Siphon give 14 instead of 7 mod capacity. There are barely any situations where Super Jump and Radial Javelin are better than Slash Dash and Radial Blind:

Note that I added the Forma BEFORE the Auras added mod capacity.

 

P.S. Isn't it a bit insulting to call someone "insane"?

Edited July 25, 2013 by ChaoticVice777