The disappointment.

[Shiroihasu]

TL;DR: Vazarin's support capabilities are obsolete in comparison to the abilities of other focus trees.

I used to have vazarin. The buffs were amazing.
Stackable instant revives.
Overshielding allies.
Shielding allies.
Healing allies.

All gone. You get a  "Use expensive AF pulse to give a little bit of shield" now.
I can't even reliably heal without risking to kill my self or just completely miss the target that needs it, because he's spasming around. If it was the beam that'd heal then ok.
Or some operator-bound abilities.

Vazarin feels like a liability now. I feel like I wasted my platinum on greater lenses.

I want a way to exchange and/or transform lenses. 
Even better would be a refund but I highly doubt that will be done :/

If anything you should go madurai now.
Like really? 10% bonus on the first level?
AND an energy regen rate increase? Isn't that the Zenurik's job?
Not to mention the Unariu's incredibly OP ally buffs.
Even the Zenurik despite its terrible nerf is still viable because it creates SUSTAINED support and damage.

Honestly I want anything but the vazarin tree at this point. I feel useless pulsing 50 times to get some proper overshields that doesn't do a hoot against proper damage income.
Naramon still is pretty much the same though, if not better. :v

Now I speculate that grinding your arse off for The Quills will improve this one way or another, but c'mmon. I'm only halfway through the first rep rank and I seriously did not half-arsed it.
Cetus rep I'm almost at the second rank and I 100% half-arsed that.

EDIT*

The lenses are seriously ONLY obtainable through the Cetus bounties now?
Oh gods, please re-add them to the sorties.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shiroihasu
Added a TL;DR

[Echowing]

Vazarin is excellent now, way better than it used to be.

Quote

Stackable instant revives.

They don't stack infinitely now (the only real nerf to Vazarin), but you get 8 total at max, which should be more than enough.

Quote

Overshielding allies.

Still possible with the Guardian Blast power

40 minutes ago, Shiroihasu said:

Shielding allies.

Again, Guardian Blast, along with Protective Dash for full invincibility and healing.  You can also use Void Aegis or Guardian Shell to block incoming damage for your team

41 minutes ago, Shiroihasu said:

Healing allies.

Protective Dash is more useful than Mending Tides ever was.  It's nearly instant, heals for 75% of a player's maximum HP over 5s, and gives 2s of damage immunity.  It also has no cooldown, so you can just pop into operator, dash once or twice, and jump back into your Warframe.  It even works on yourself, giving every single frame in your arsenal a form of self-healing.

[Shiroihasu]

You're not comparing them to the others.

Not to mention that it's only useful ASSUMING you even hit something in the first place and not get killed the moment you reached them. because oh yeah, the invincibility doesn't affect you..
The shielding is absolute bollocks, is what I'm trying to say. I need to spam E. The hell? Overshields that are gone in ONE hit?
When I say shielding I meant the damn bubble, which was actually useful for the time it lasted. 

Face it, the other trees are better in every way. The healing is a disappointment. Make it a lingering field for X seconds and it's at least somewhat on par with the other trees. All other perks are useless as balls.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shiroihasu

[Lisztomaniac]

2 hours ago, Shiroihasu said:

You're not comparing them to the others.

Not to mention that it's only useful ASSUMING you even hit something in the first place and not get killed the moment you reached them. because oh yeah, the invincibility doesn't affect you..
The shielding is absolute bollocks, is what I'm trying to say. I need to spam E. The hell? Overshields that are gone in ONE hit?
When I say shielding I meant the damn bubble, which was actually useful for the time it lasted. 

Face it, the other trees are better in every way. The healing is a disappointment. Make it a lingering field for X seconds and it's at least somewhat on par with the other trees. All other perks are useless as balls.

what you dont understand its that youre not forced to use operator, thats why they offer you "residuals", people complain that the operator is too weak compared to the warframe but they dont realize that they are not forced to use the operator, operator is a tool to buff your team and do some utility, not something you HAVE to use, hits is WF you make your playstyle and honestly, residuals are strong enough so that if you dont like operator you can ignore it and still get a strong permanent buff from it, old system had you waiting minutes to activate a lackluster aoe that lasted for a few secs, and most focus nodes where laughably bad and uninteresting, most were passives or changes to your 5 ability that just made it a little flashier, but was still a useless mechanic that was only used for the residuals, which are still there, only know the rest of the talents are actually interesting.

 

note: i know there are certain points where operator use is mandatory, im not okay with it, but in regular combat operator is not forced upon you, its a tool much like specters, energy regends and such, just because its always available to you doesnt mean you should always be using it.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Lisztomaniac

[Shiroihasu]

Just now, Lisztomaniac said:

residuals are strong enough so that if you dont like operator you can ignore it and still get a strong permanent buff from it,

You didn't even read my post did you?
Vazarin's passive buffs are a disappointment in comparison to the other trees.

My primary issue is how weak the Vazarin is in comparison.
And how overpowered madurai.
How Zenurik is still viable, but not necessary because the others already got energy regen buffs.

The whole thing is unbalanced as fluff.
I never said I expected it to be stronger than your warframe, I have no clue where the hax you pulled that from.

[MortalSword]

4 hours ago, Shiroihasu said:

The lenses are seriously ONLY obtainable through the Cetus bounties now?
Oh gods, please re-add them to the sorties.

No. Stop. 
 

[Lisztomaniac]

26 minutes ago, Shiroihasu said:

You didn't even read my post did you?
Vazarin's passive buffs are a disappointment in comparison to the other trees.

My primary issue is how weak the Vazarin is in comparison.
And how overpowered madurai.
How Zenurik is still viable, but not necessary because the others already got energy regen buffs.

The whole thing is unbalanced as fluff.
I never said I expected it to be stronger than your warframe, I have no clue where the hax you pulled that from.

have you even read the other trees?

vazarin is probably the most powerfull out of them yes madurai gives damage woopdeefuckindoo, there is so much damage in this game that madurai equates to "overkill" 

i read madurai and everything to me just reads "more innecesary damage" you complain about having to use operator yet you think focusing on damage as operator will do anything, when your weapons can crit for tens if not hundreds of thounsands, on the other hand, the rest of the trees bring utility that you can hardly make up by leveling that primed mod for your soma prime, there are tons and tons of damage mods to compensate for madurai "strong focus points", madurai its probably the least attractive tree in my opinion usability wise, outside of naramon (only good if you want to farm xp or a longer combo multiplier).

Edited October 16, 2017 by Lisztomaniac

[Shiroihasu]

10% increase on physical damage.
10% increase on elemental damage.
At the base.
That's huge.

Not to mention the fact that doing more damage as an operator against the eidolons makes it a million times more viable.

Vazarin allows you to get a few instant revives that don't even get transfered to your warframe 50% of the time, so you're just risking your arse using it in your operator form.
The fact that you have to be on top with your operator all the time. That's what makes it so damn useless. 

One tree has a lingering AOE.
The other does it all at a range and gets a huge damage boost.
Another one buffs the hell out of your operator damage and basically makes the whole team invincible.

Then we have vazarin.
All things wrong with it mentioned above.

[BiancaRoughfin]

I share your frustration @Shiroihasu as i only used Vazarin since Focus came out. I made a Topic about my frustration on Vazarin a few min ago as i didnt see yours on the list. :/

4 hours ago, Echowing said:

Vazarin is excellent now, way better than it used to be.

Please explain how and prove your point of view?

4 hours ago, Echowing said:

They don't stack infinitely now (the only real nerf to Vazarin), but you get 8 total at max, which should be more than enough.

Teammates down much more than 8 times on Sorties missions.

4 hours ago, Echowing said:

Still possible with the Guardian Blast power

4 hours ago, Echowing said:

Again, Guardian Blast, along with Protective Dash for full invincibility and healing.

This is the moment i felt the need to be rude but preferred not to.
How is the current Overshielding good if you can only give 100 Shield at the cost of your whole energy compared to the 3000 Shield that 12 pulses of a single Vazarin charge was capable of?
And how is Protective Dash suppose to be efficient if your teammates are always bouncing around and cant stand still or line up for you to hit them all in a quick paced game like this?

35 minutes ago, Lisztomaniac said:

what you dont understand its that youre not forced to use operator

Try killing an Eidolon without them then?

[Lisztomaniac]

2 minutes ago, Shiroihasu said:

10% increase on physical damage.
10% increase on elemental damage.
At the base.
That's huge.

Not to mention the fact that doing more damage as an operator against the eidolons makes it a million times more viable.

Vazarin allows you to get a few instant revives that don't even get transfered to your warframe 50% of the time, so you're just risking your arse using it in your operator form.
The fact that you have to be on top with your operator all the time. That's what makes it so damn useless. 

One tree has a lingering AOE.
The other does it all at a range and gets a huge damage boost.
Another one buffs the hell out of your operator damage and basically makes the whole team invincible.

Then we have vazarin.
All things wrong with it mentioned above.

again, youre comparing a damage tree against a supportive tree, yes madurai the damage tree might be better to do damage to eidolons, man thats a @(*()$ math problem solved thanks, but eidolons arent the only enemies on this game, nor is vazarins job to do damage to eidolons, however the heals, invinsibilities and revives madurai brings to the table arent as good as those vazarin brings... oh wait, its almost like diferent trees are for diferent purposes, almost like your quote above could translate to "madurai is exceptional to fight eidolons, vazarin is just great at every point in the game" id rather have someone with vazarin in my team than have a madurai person in my team 10 times out of 10, damage can be compensated over time, revives and damage negated cant.

[Shiroihasu]

That's not the damn problem you daft...

I'm comparing it to VIABILITY.
Not to how much damage it can do.

The shields are useless because they get one-shot by a stray bullet.
The heal is nice but is basically suicide to use if your party isn't disciplined.
The shield is pointless in the only case you'd actually use it : against eidolons. They shoot straight through it.
The revives are way too little for the way it's implemented, as it's pretty damn suicidal.
The health increase is pointless because instead of getting two-hit, you now get three-hit.

The invincibility is fine.
The affinity range is fine if not a bit pointless.

IT DOES NOT COMPARE to the INSANE buffs and abilities of the other trees, not necessarily focused around Damage.

Believe me, I took plenty of time to research the other trees before posting this.
I've been thinking, testing and calculating since release.

I'm not spouting random bull because things changed.
I'm spouting bull because there is no balance.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shiroihasu

[Shiroihasu]

And you do realize that madurai has two buffs that when maxed, amount to TWO EXTRA DAMAGE MODS.
How is that not viable in situations besides eidolons?

[Lisztomaniac]

10 hours ago, Shiroihasu said:

I'm comparing it to VIABILITY.


The shields are useless because they get one-shot by a stray bullet.
The heal is nice but is basically suicide to use if your party isn't disciplined.
The shield is pointless in the only case you'd actually use it : against eidolons. They shoot straight through it.
The revives are way too little for the way it's implemented, as it's pretty damn suicidal.
The health increase is pointless because instead of getting two-hit, you now get three-hit.

The invincibility is fine.
The affinity range is fine if not a bit pointless.

IT DOES NOT COMPARE to the INSANE buffs and abilities of the other trees, not necessarily focused around Damage.
 

i made a snip to share my point of view point by point

1-i agree on the shield point, they are on the useless side, but as i see it, no focus point that contains the words "this ability costs an aditional x energy/s" is worth using, the operator is not that attractive for his "talent tree" abilities to drain extra energy, and in the case of the shield well, its a S#&$ty shield.

2-not sure why you say the heal is suicide if your party isnt disciplined, all you need to do is aim at your teammate and dash, its an spamable quasi-instant dash, if your answer to this is "my teamates move dude" then never in your life pick a boltor or a bow please, cause if you cant lead targets with your void dash you must suck at projectile weapons

3.-shield again, i said i agree 

4.-its instant revives, whats suicidal about them over common revives i mean they work exactly the same, just instant (i would think thats less suicidal than standing there channeling but ok), hell you need to be in operator mode and operator mode lets you revive while in void so i dont see any risk of suicide here, as simple as ducking dashing to your fallen teamate, reviving without leaving void and then dashing out, tell me five warframes that can do this, cause i sure as hell i can tell you 5 waframe with "gives extra % damage% on their abilities.

5.- "the damage bonus is pointless cause overkilling an anemy by 20k its the same as overkiling him by 5000k", hes @(*()$ dead. saying that a 75% heal with 2 secs immunity its worse than 40% damage its just, lol.

6.-"And you do realize that madurai has two buffs that when maxed, amount to TWO EXTRA DAMAGE MODS.
How is that not viable in situations besides eidolons?"--what? did you meant "damaged mods" or something?, cause where i come from a single mod gives 120% bonus damage to my melee weapon NOT PHYSYCAL, NOT ELEMENTAL, just plain damage across the board, your oh so wonderfull damage from madurai costs 4 points for 40% PHYSICAL DAMAGE and another 4 points for 40% ELEMENTAL DAMAGE, thats 8 points for 40% extra damage, congratulations you saved yourself a third of a mod slot for each weapon for 8 focus points, man you did your research. (vazarin heal+immunity is 4 points for both, you can put just 1 point and you will lose the heal, but keep 1 sec immunity)

now to finish a comparison of the good in madura and vazarin:

madurai: extra 40% elemental and phys damage, blind, energy upgrades for operators (after complaining about operator health increase are you going say energy/energy rate increase is any more usefull? after all, youll still get two-hit. and the rest of the talents are pointless "void dash will burn the ground for x damage"  and the like: now lets take a look at vazarin.

vazarin: extra affinity range, instant revives, instant on demand  8m aoe stun, channeled shield that negates damage in exchange for energy (funny you chose to speak about the other shield but not this one, the rests are operator health increase and operator health regen, the later one being the lamest in my opinion

i dont know dude, madurai doesnt seem to stand up to vazarin (or any of the other schools for that matter), i said it before and i say it again, id rather have a teammate with spammable stuns, immunity ,revives and extra xp range, than the kid that has the "big crits im awesome" mentality, so as my last post ill just say this and be done with it, good utility in the right hands will always be better than raw damage, unless to you damage is all you care about, but damage is not all there is to this game.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Lisztomaniac

[Shiroihasu]

I still love how you're only pressing the argument regarding madurai, even though I clearly mentioned all trees across the board only using madurai as an example.
You're pulling assumptions out of your own rear. I don't enjoy talking with people that do that at all, so after this comment I am done even mentioning you.

It pisses me off that all you mention is damage, damage, damage, even though that's not the @(*()$ point.
I've said this at least once in every god damn comment and still you fall back to it. It's like you're intentionally trying to piss me off.

More over, are you seriously trying to justify this with the difficulty to obtain focus points? Because that's what I interpret with this. And that's just stupid.
Vazarin's neglected in comparison to the other trees in more than one way, and anyone with even a basic set of comparison skills would realize this.
 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Shiroihasu

[Drago55577]

Honestly, I think Vazarin should get a complete rework. It shouldn't be focused on reviving frames or giving shields. I'd like to see it shifted into lock down and area control, let people use their operators to setup shields, maybe bullet reflects or slow-down fields. I think it'd be better as a defense-oriented school, where you can setup various different bubbles and fields to benefit your team in different ways. Revives are a safety net for bad players, a few hundred extra shields are worthless when a corpus tech will burn through a Valkyr or Nidus in a second, healing is okay, but not when it requires you to put yourself in the way of a corpus tech or napalm who can kill a Nidus. It's just a poorly designed tree, at best it's a safety net for people who are bad at the game.

A rework would be best, I think. Give it it's own thing that's useful for everyone, in the same way a frost dropping a bubble down will pretty much always be useful, outside of high mobility. Let Vazarin be the Frost and Limbo of focus schools. 

[Shiroihasu]

I think the concept is fine, just poorly implemented.

All I'm saying is that it needs minor tweaks to balance it out.
I like playing support. But other than the few instant revives that run out like it's nothing, the entire tree just feels useless and generally suicidal.

I'd rather be Zenurik or Unairu, as their support capabilities are generally far more useful.
Or madurai, because so few people I play with actually have it. :/

Edited October 17, 2017 by Shiroihasu