Remaking the Infest : Think tank session

[KGeddon]

Grineer much?

[MJ12]

Grineer much?

The Grineer, if you pretend Grinders all died in a fire somewhere, are probably the most interesting and fun faction with the least frustration value. Making the Infested similar to the Grineer in terms of synergies would only help them.

Anyways one thing that's never been brought up is how nanospores and plastids are used in Warframes. You could even have the Infested do "powers" whereas Grineer are military brute force and Corpus are combined arms, the Infested throw around powers.

Cloaking infested. Lightning Infested. Caster Infested. Slowing Infested.

[Mak_Gohae]

The Grineer, if you pretend Grinders all died in a fire somewhere, are probably the most interesting and fun faction with the least frustration value. Making the Infested similar to the Grineer in terms of synergies would only help them.

Anyways one thing that's never been brought up is how nanospores and plastids are used in Warframes. You could even have the Infested do "powers" whereas Grineer are military brute force and Corpus are combined arms, the Infested throw around powers.

Cloaking infested. Lightning Infested. Caster Infested. Slowing Infested.

I think what he means is that you would be turning the Infested into the Grineer if you give them range units.

They are the factions that has a mix of units that get close and stay far.

If no one here noticed, the Corpus are long range mainly, the Grineer are in the middle, and the Infested are short range.

[MJ12]

I think what he means is that you would be turning the Infested into the Grineer if you give them range units.

They are the factions that has a mix of units that get close and stay far.

If no one here noticed, the Corpus are long range mainly, the Grineer are in the middle, and the Infested are short range.

All the factions have a mix of close and long range units. Besides the Infested. The Corpus have Moas and Bomb Ospreys, as well as Prods. The Grineer have melee and ranged units. The Infested are &*$$genous and have no ranged attackers and this is awful.

And your analysis is pretty off. The Corpus have snipers, yes. They also have the in-your-face Moas and Prod guys. The Grineer have bombards and napalms for range, and the Lancer is pretty deadly from afar too. Only the Infested are pidgeonholed.

And they suffer because of it. I mean, look at Resident Evil or L4D. In both cases you had ranged zombies. RE especially, wherein plenty of zombies had thrown attacks or tentacles or something else to make them dangerous at range. Bosses too. The proper answer to fix them isn't "make them really dangerous if they get in close", that's awful. The correct way to fix them is to let them threaten you when they're more than five feet away.

[UkyoSonoda]

Which is why I lean more to giving them tools that either serve to make ranged combat specifically less effective or viable against them or ranged abilities that help them either get to you to so they can chew your face off or pull you to them so they can chew your face off. I'd steer away from damaging ranged attacks with them though I the toxic gas bombs the golem boss throws would be fine I think since it's fairly dodgable and works well as a ranged zone control tool.

[MJ12]

Which is why I lean more to giving them tools that either serve to make ranged combat specifically less effective or viable against them or ranged abilities that help them either get to you to so they can chew your face off or pull you to them so they can chew your face off. I'd steer away from damaging ranged attacks with them though I the toxic gas bombs the golem boss throws would be fine I think since it's fairly dodgable and works well as a ranged zone control tool.

The thing is, direct damage is often less aggravating than debuffs. For a variety of reasons. So direct damage is a useful tool.

Anyways I still maintain that Infested should get the "powers" if you want to make them unique. Teleporting Infested. Charging Infested. Infested with bullet shields. Ninja Infested. Less zombie, more xenomorph. Because frankly, zombies are always going to be easy. Oh, yeah, and Infested holding guns, spraying wildly on full-auto as they run at you.

[KGeddon]

Grineer much?

[UkyoSonoda]

Direct damage at range would make them too much like the other factions. Ranged debuff or utility abilities but still dealing their damage at close range IMO would be a better approach. While yes getting pulled back into a swarm repeatedly when you try to flee or suddenly getting slowed, having your skill keys blocked when you wanted to use them, gun aim disrupted to the point you can't aim to save your life past point blank etc. can be annoying it provokes players to pay more attention to enemy units looking for the ones specific that are doing these things while trying to deal with generic damage units like the chargers that flood out in large numbers.

[MJ12]

Grineer much?

You are the reason the Infested will never be fun. You. Because they can't have such basic tools like "direct damage at range". I guess to you the Corpus are just Grineer in funny hats. And the zombies in RE6 are literally just Russian soldiers from Modern Warfare 3. After all, all of them shoot bullets at you.

[KGeddon]

You are the reason the Infested will never be fun. You. Because they can't have such basic tools like "direct damage at range". I guess to you the Corpus are just Grineer in funny hats. And the zombies in RE6 are literally just Russian soldiers from Modern Warfare 3. After all, all of them shoot bullets at you.

Or you just want to make more Grineer by grafting all Grineer abilities to the infested.

[MJ12]

Direct damage at range would make them too much like the other factions. Ranged debuff or utility abilities but still dealing their damage at close range IMO would be a better approach. While yes getting pulled back into a swarm repeatedly when you try to flee or suddenly getting slowed, having your skill keys blocked when you wanted to use them, gun aim disrupted to the point you can't aim to save your life past point blank etc. can be annoying it provokes players to pay more attention to enemy units looking for the ones specific that are doing these things while trying to deal with generic damage units like the chargers that flood out in large numbers.

Yes, but here's the thing. Other factions are FUN. Infested were fun when they weren't challenging because they were a nice breather in between Pluto missions wherein you could kill everything with a sword.

The overdependence on CC people are insisting the Infested keep is one of the main reasons they will always be either too easy or awful. They were too easy before, now they're just awful.

[MJ12]

Or you just want to make more Grineer by grafting all Grineer abilities to the infested.

Given the current state of the Infested, that would only make the game better. There. I said it. Right now nothing of value would be lost if the Infested were literally just Grineer in funny facehugger hats.

More importantly abilities like teleport/smoke/bullet shields are far more useful for Infested than for Grineer. And the total lack of any range attackers makes their difficulty nearly impossible to balance.

[neKroMancer]

Infest is a melee-oriented faction but that doesn't mean that they should be solely rely on melee attack. The fact that they're melee only is extremely boring even with the addition of chargers since most of them can't do anything if player manage to slip out of their range by kiting or crate climbing.

Range unit should spice up the gameplay. I agree with UkyoSonoda that their range attack shouldn't be the main source of damage like other factions but an auxiliary unit attach to the main force. Main role should be denying players from escaping from the melee threat with slow AOE attack, creating a semipermeable barricade like the corpus laser door (deal no damage but do not allow players to move through, trap them and force them to fight) like the Webber idea.

Range damage with direct damage capability is useful. Imagine chargers as baits, distract players from the real threat taking up position behind the charger line and mercilessly shooting at players. Forcing the player to take it out first while maneuvering through hoard of chargers with wallruning.

The point is, everything is better than the current state of the Infest which have limited strategy. Melee only isn't a viable option when your opponents are wielding big guns. The necromorph is a good example of how 'zombies' should be varied in design and function.

[UkyoSonoda]

Thing is Infested were always reliant on CC ability. Specifically stun/stagger/knockdown mechanics that take away a players ability to input commands or controls. However outside of ancients their damage in general was horribly low so getting stuck in a stun/stagger/knockdown loop rarely was fatal unless you had something like toxic ancients hugging you or you were leveling a new warframe. I'd venture to say the damage on the chargers as they are now could actually be fine feasibly if the infested faction in general used a mix of various engagement debuffs or defensive abilities vs ranged attacks and lost it's over reliance on stacking effects that deny player control in it's entirety to keep you in range to be attacked.

[Mak_Gohae]

All the factions have a mix of close and long range units. Besides the Infested. The Corpus have Moas and Bomb Ospreys, as well as Prods. The Grineer have melee and ranged units. The Infested are &*$$genous and have no ranged attackers and this is awful.

And your analysis is pretty off. The Corpus have snipers, yes. They also have the in-your-face Moas and Prod guys. The Grineer have bombards and napalms for range, and the Lancer is pretty deadly from afar too. Only the Infested are pidgeonholed.

I said mainly not exclusively.

The Moas and Opsreys are not short range at all. The Moas just try to get a straight line of sight and in small rooms sometimes that requires to be in your face. In bigger rooms they will shoot from a long distance. The Ospreys lay down mines where ever they feel like but if you get close to them they will come up to you. The shock stick dudes are the only true melee mob.

[KGeddon]

I said mainly not exclusively.

The Moas and Opsreys are not short range at all. The Moas just try to get a straight line of sight and in small rooms sometimes that requires to be in your face. In bigger rooms they will shoot from a long distance. The Ospreys lay down mines where ever they feel like but if you get close to them they will come up to you. The shock stick dudes are the only true melee mob.

Moas and Shockwave Moas prefer CQC. CQC =/= melee. In CQC, you may be using handguns, shotguns, or carbines in addition to HtH weaponry.

[neKroMancer]

While I understand that some forumers are worry about the uniqueness of the Infest. Yes, they should be different from other factions. However uniqueness should not be created by reliance on single mechanic and strategy. That isn't uniqueness. This isn't fine.

That's why I made this topic, to offer DE with more diversity in tactic against players. New mechanics are needed for this faction to be on par with the other two. It's fine staying melee only but they need more than stunlock to be interesting. They can be more fun to play.

[TinFoilMkIV]

While infested don't really need true long range attacks, some mid range abilities beyond the ridiculously slow leapers, and the ability to pose a threat beyond zerg rush->stunlock combo, would go a long way towards making infested a lot more interesting to fight.

Also bringing this topic back up while more people are around because its a good discusssion.