Non-Frames.

[Azraill]

So, we have a difficulty spread on the community and I haven't seen an idea of this extent come to light, some people want it more difficult even now, some want it significantly less even late game. I started thinking on it and came to the conclusion, well, more a half-thought out concept of balancing Warframe toward a slight less difficulty overall to benefit those seeking it, somewhat return it back to U8.

For those of us like myself that enjoy solo play, and more hardcore difficulty - release new Warframes Standard Gear for Warframe stripped Tenno / Human's from the rescue missions.

For instance one gear would be dedicated altogether toward the stealth fighters, No shields at all, we'd have something like a leather trench coat Matrixy character with a Covert-Ops helmet out of something like Splinter Cell wielding altered versions of Ash's abilities. He has smoke bomb with heightened duration to match Loki's (however, you slip out of stealth as if using a shade during attacks), a radical disarm style hacking ability, a speed ability like volt (singular person, not team buff.) and a passive to ensure instant kill on stealth-attack.

A gear dedicated toward Vauban / Frost / Rhino / Defensive Volt user would be something more along the lines of heavy-armored almost robotic/cyborg appearing stationed toward survival, but not near as well as any of these frames. This character wouldn't have abilities, but a elementally created riot shield that moves with the character while holding the block key and maybe one other tool at his disposal.

These characters are vastly more difficult to play, these characters are for the challenge for those that want it.

Thoughts? Would you play as essentially a re-geared version of the person we go on Rescue missions to save? Do you believe it's a better alternative than trying to appeal to everyone via game rebalancing?

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[Zareek]

Have you read the name of the game?

 

Edit: I think its great that you are trying to think outside the box, but I really don't see how this would be a good idea.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Zareek

[Cyler]

Have you read the name of the game?

^this

 

What you suggest isn't bad, but it's not Warframe.

[Bleghy]

I want my exo-armour, and what if the Tenno can't leave their frames?

You do first see yourself sleeping in one after all

[Azraill]

I want my exo-armour, and what if the Tenno can't leave their frames?

You do first see yourself sleeping in one after all

Alright, let me dig into the lore a bit.. We're suppose to be the first Tenno : a organization since Hayden, we see ourselves rescuing humans (non-deformed) all the time, in what is suspected to be future Warframe users. No real reason to say it's not the idea behind DE's concept lest they say it isn't, all evidence points that way thus far that I know about and if they do not use Warframes all the more reason they would in some cases armor up with the most advanced gear they could get ahold of and fight back.

 

 

^this

 

What you suggest isn't bad, but it's not Warframe.

 

Provides a means to have in-game difficulty that rewards Hardcore seekers with a unique cosmetic easily noticeable from a standard Warframe without screwing anyone over, makes sense and is actually immerse in the lore department as far as we know to this point at least? I fail to see how it's not like Warframe and that's my honest perspective, I expected balancing issue arguments, can't say I saw this coming o.o

 

Would it actually be against the concept of Warframe to have something more than strict Warframes capable of being used? I can't wrap my head around that logic.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[VigorousSnow]

 "what if the Tenno can't leave their frames?"

 

If the can't leave their frames then how do they drink? Eat? mastur...... take showers....

[Naples]

Lore dictates Tenno are bonded to their frames, they 'become' them.

[Azraill]

Regardless of the Lore on Warframes, we can look strictly at the Human's we rescue during missions and assume two things.

 

One, if your right and the Lore does dictate we are bonded to our frame - the human's we rescue are not, they don't have one. They can choose to do as they wish, including taking up arms against the Factions with said gadgets and thus you have hardcore mode.

 

Two, we look at the tutorial which our frame was 'shattered' and were given the ability to chose another one (or the same one) in which case, we aren't bonded to our frame and could chose not to return to one. Again, permitting a more hardcore mode to validly exist?

 

- and before it may or may not come up. 

 

As to why you'd chose that, well, out of character - as a gamer - you want a harder difficulty this is it.

As a lore-friendly reason, you look at someone not wearing a warframe and can assume there was a shortage on these extremely well, short supply of unique warframes.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[Shion963]

Alright, let me dig into the lore a bit.. We're suppose to be the first Tenno : a organization since Hayden, we see ourselves rescuing humans (non-deformed) all the time, in what is suspected to be future Warframe users. No real reason to say it's not the idea behind DE's concept lest they say it isn't, all evidence points that way thus far that I know about and if they do not use Warframes all the more reason they would in some cases armor up with the most advanced gear they could get ahold of and fight back.

 

Nowhere is it mentioned that the Tenno are anywhere linked with or related to Hayden Tenno outside of the obvious same name.

 

Warframe-era Tenno are the remaining survivors of an Orokin-era order/cult of warriors. The Orokin era is far removed from 'modern' time (at least a few centuries), when the great jesus-figure of Warframe, Hayden Tenno lived.

 

Of course DE could make official lore saying that Great Jesus Hayden Tenno sired many sons and daughters, started a whole warrior clan, and single-handedly carrying the entire human race to great technological heights and therefore establising the Orokin era, golden age of humanity that lasted for many many centuries of his immortal life. But that would be entirely silly if they ever intended for Warframe to be a 'serious' universe.

 

All I know from Warframe lore, Hayden Tenno could have died of a heart attack at the age of 60, having spent his whole life as a hobo in the streets of Russia.

[Azraill]

Nowhere is it mentioned that the Tenno are anywhere linked with or related to Hayden Tenno outside of the obvious same name.

 

Warframe-era Tenno are the remaining survivors of an Orokin-era order/cult of warriors. The Orokin era is far removed from 'modern' time (at least a few centuries), when the great jesus-figure of Warframe, Hayden Tenno lived.

 

Based on DE it is the same universe and his was the first Warframe, the first prototype anyway. Linked isn't questionable. 

 

Regardless as I've said the idea isn't based on any of that, so much as we see Human's - perfectly normal humans - we rescue them : and they are more than capable of fighting, they do after all shoot the enemies, so trigger fingers are fine. Not the most agile guys, but sure we can work around that with technology other than Warframes even if not to the same extent as a Warframe - afterall this is to make things difficult for those who want it, and not difficult without any disadvantages for those that don't.

 

I see no Lore issues, no disadvantages, we're essentially talking about gearing a Rescue human with armor and playing as them for Hardcore mode, rather than having to fight each other to get DE to make the game harder or easier in a never ending balance issue because everyone has their own preference and playstyles. I feel at least this would solve all our issues, reward hardcore players with a different cosmetic look that's recognizable but actually providing no benefit to the user while also giving DE the leeway to make the game easier for the rest of the community and then they can actually focus on improving the AI and other great concepts instead of finding the right stats to fix.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[Bleghy]

If we went without our frames, do you know what we would be playing?

CoD

It's our frames that give us our power, our mobility, our enhanced combat skills.

Without them we can't hope to take on even one squad of elite grineer.

We are ment to master our warframes, the ultimate weapons. We do not abandon them.

[Azraill]

If we went without our frames, do you know what we would be playing?

CoD

It's our frames that give us our power, our mobility, our enhanced combat skills.

Without them we can't hope to take on even one squad of elite grineer.

We are ment to master our warframes, the ultimate weapons. We do not abandon them.

We do in the tutorial >.> Our Warframe is supposedly shattered, and we exchange it. So we do abandon our warframe, now again - Warframes aren't in ample supply, not hard to imagine someone not having a spare laying around.

Again though, not necessarily talking about a Tenno abandoning a Warframe : But a human without a Warframe fighting against the Factions. A means to create a hardcore difficulty, and you know if that makes it "COD" (Which it doesn't have to, or even remotely do anything like that: Not even a FPS.. still involves powers, and certainly more tactics to survive.) so be it if it does! Hardcore players get their fix, Casual/Normal difficulty users get what they want, win win and it even fits the lore. Not only this, but just because it isn't a Warframe doesn't mean mobility goes out the window, this is the future, we can have gadgets to make up for, a simple grapple shot and magnetic boots could keep pace.

Brings a whole other aspect to the game that's intentionally harder, doesn't reward players that don't use it - doesn't reward players that DO use it. It simply exists and makes the gamers that want things difficult to get what they want, while the rest of the community is blissfully using their Warframes.

... and I right now can take down whole rooms of Grineer and Corpus without them landing a single shot on me, yeah, don't need my Warframe for that. I'll just steal a shield osprey and reprogram it, I'll be fine without the frame. For now though, I'll just take the Splinter Cell style human with a Shade, and a Paris or Dread, and be alright until I reach a Boss, even then probably do alright, but I'd probably leave the bosses to 4 man groups of this hardcore mode, or just bring my Tenno and defeat the boss before returning to the hardcore mode on the rest of my missions, specially solo.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[CapricaSix]

Hmm a lotus support character, funky gadgets instead of technocyte powers, carrying less of everything and looking awesome at the same time. Or maybe someone just like Hayden Tenno from Dark Sector {not the concept trailer, but the original game. a hobo dude with limited options} Why not :P

 

As for the "title being Warframe and therefore we cannot have anything but warframes", it's a good argument but not a solid one. The warframes can still be the main focus of the game, that doesn't necessarily mean there can't be anything else though. Just look at Darkness 2 {also by Digital Extremes}, it has a coop mode where you play 4 other random characters that have their own backgrounds and unique non-darkness related powers. Having a non-warframe character would be just the same as that.

 

I'm sure lots of people would use such characters if it was available.

Edited July 29, 2013 by CapricaSix

[whitejackale]

Lore dictates Tenno are bonded to their frames, they 'become' them.

That sucks for them.

[whitejackale]

 

For instance one gear would be dedicated altogether toward the stealth fighters, No shields at all, we'd have something like a leather trench coat Matrixy character with a Covert-Ops helmet out of something like Splinter Cell wielding altered versions of Ash's abilities. He has smoke bomb with heightened durations to match Loki's, a radical disarm style hacking ability, a speed ability like volt (singular person, not team buff.) and a passive to ensure instant kill on stealth-attack. 

 

Not a fan of long duration stealth that does not break on attack. I do like the "passive" to ensure instant kill on stealth attack, but shouldn't that be part of every warframe?

[Azraill]

Not a fan of long duration stealth that does not break on attack. I do like the "passive" to ensure instant kill on stealth attack, but shouldn't that be part of every warframe?

 

You'd think the stealth kills would but they don't x_X so maybe that's a passive that should roll out across the board! But yeah now that you mention it - should break on attack. What about the stealth gear become more along the lines of Grey Fox style, that upon contact (attack) reveals yourself for the duration of the attack, and then slips back into invisibility, as a 'gear' dedicated solely toward stealth it needs to have some perks in that department that keep it above just playing as the other's not geared toward it while still being harder than playing as a Warframe.

 

But I can agree on this point, it shouldn't quite be like Ash or Loki's perma-invis or it defeats the point of playing in this way but as the only real ability he has aside from a brief disarm it should also revert back to stealth moments after the shot, not having shields and health being a quick loss it'd be the only real saving grace if you did get caught to try  to finish the mission vs playing as the other gear intended for tactical stand-offs and quick aim/reflexes. So basically a shade ability, is what he'd have.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Azraill

[whitejackale]

You'd think the stealth kills would but they don't x_X so maybe that's a passive that should roll out across the board! But yeah now that you mention it - should break on attack. What about the stealth gear become more along the lines of Grey Fox style, that upon contact (attack) reveals yourself for the duration of the attack, and then slips back into invisibility, as a 'gear' dedicated solely toward stealth it needs to have some perks in that department that keep it above just playing as the other's not geared toward it while still being harder than playing as a Warframe.

 

But I can agree on this point, it shouldn't quite be like Ash or Loki's perma-invis or it defeats the point of playing in this way but as the only real ability he has aside from a brief disarm it should also revert back to stealth moments after the shot, not having shields and health being a quick loss it'd be the only real saving grace if you did get caught to try  to finish the mission vs playing as the other gear intended for tactical stand-offs and quick aim/reflexes. So basically a shade ability, is what he'd have.

I think that loki and ash's invisibility should break on attack. Being able to remain invisible while killing everything in sight is not really stealth.

[RoboDoge]

What is ninja without his armor?

[Azraill]

What is ninja without his armor?

 

 

Any compromise on that line of thinking?  

 

A real ninja? =P Besides, I did mention we had armor : it just isn't a Warframe. More like splinter cell suits / corpus inspired gear? Could go a plethora of directions with it, but the basics would settle the hardcore gamer for a long time at least, I know I'd play as it as much for the challenge as the unique cosmetic.

[RoboDoge]

 

Any compromise on that line of thinking?  

 

A real ninja? =P Besides, I did mention we had armor : it just isn't a Warframe. More like splinter cell suits / corpus inspired gear? Could go a plethora of directions with it, but the basics would settle the hardcore gamer for a long time at least, I know I'd play as it as much for the challenge as the unique cosmetic.

 

Would you settle for this compromis: lower base stats by 70% and no mods?

[Azraill]

Would you settle for this compromis: lower base stats by 70% and no mods?

 

Sounds fun. Though having the full capability of the warframe would still not be different enough. That and you'd have a share of hardcore players ignoring that the same as now. I already play restricting myself to one weapon unmodded and low level for the mission when I want a challange. So yeah, I don't need game-made restrictions.

 

But I would use this concept in a heartbeat. 

 

Majority of the difficulty seeker base? No, no they wouldn't care for simple % reductions either. Would see this 'mode' - this Human option with corpus designed gear out of his/her Warframe, the different appearance that lets them stand out and ingame displayed in it's own menu with gadgets supporting the ability to get around instead of the sleeker style of a Warframe (since lore wise you simply couldn't have a regular human as agile) - it'd appeal to your "I want the game harder" playerbase to the point you'd not get even a quarter as many threads calling the game to easy. Specially as the AI improves.

 

Just my opinion though, I do tire of DE - as with most any online game - struggling to balance out for two separate parts of the community. One hand they make the game difficult in areas and get yelled at to make it easier as the difficulty seekers look puzzled and come back  to shout it get difficult again when they nerf it. Simply designing separate characters with distinct appearances and style of play that makes the game more difficult without redesigning the whole game works in everyone's favor.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Azraill

[RoboDoge]

Sounds fun. Though having the full capability of the warframe would still not be different enough. That and you'd have a share of hardcore players ignoring that the same as now. I already play restricting myself to one weapon unmodded and low level for the mission when I want a challange. So yeah, I don't need game-made restrictions.

 

But I would use this concept in a heartbeat. 

 

Majority of the difficulty seeker base? No, no they wouldn't care for simple % reductions either. Would see this 'mode' - this Human option with corpus designed gear out of his/her Warframe, the different appearance that lets them stand out and ingame displayed in it's own menu with gadgets supporting the ability to get around instead of the sleeker style of a Warframe (since lore wise you simply couldn't have a regular human as agile) - it'd appeal to your "I want the game harder" playerbase to the point you'd not get even a quarter as many threads calling the game to easy. Specially as the AI improves.

 

Just my opinion though, I do tire of DE - as with most any online game - struggling to balance out for two separate parts of the community. One hand they make the game difficult in areas and get yelled at to make it easier as the difficulty seekers look puzzled and come back  to shout it get difficult again when they nerf it. Simply designing separate characters with distinct appearances and style of play that makes the game more difficult without redesigning the whole game works in everyone's favor.

AI needs improvement, but "hell no" says the forums, "we need more blinged weapons and frames". If we had better AI game difficulty would be increased and more challenging. And more fun imo. I think that would satisfy you for a some time?

[Azraill]

Don't mistake the thread for me being unsatisfied, I enjoy the game as I am not really dedicated to one or the other, I enjoy both: ease and difficulty to the extremes. As it is now and the like, this is just an opinion to cease the conflicted sides of the community on balancing for more difficulty or easier difficulty which your going to get regardless of AI intelligence. Something will have to be done to not lose out on a chunk of one side of the community or the other, if not trickling losses here and there between this buff and that.

 

As far as my mind can come up with there really is only three solutions : and one failure.

 

The failure is not to take a side, easy - normal - or hard. Pick one, and stick to it (DE) alternatively choose one of the three solutions.

 

One, create easy/norm/hard modes .. which comes with a plethora of problems as the concept of modes like that come with "If i play hard, I deserve rewards." mindset from the majority. Creating unnecessary issues as seen with Nightmare mode.

 

Two, this concept or similar in some way .. which comes with needing cosmetic designs and rebalancing to a far lesser degree than we have now - these select few character choices.

 

Three, allow us to play as the enemy as odds as that sounds - it's my favorite of all the options but the most difficult simply from a coding perspective - the easiest to balance - but hard initially to work in. This favors those that love the AI being smarter, as it would open up the possibility of the player being able to order around the AI to a small extent into working as a team and you'd never even know a player was doing it (well, except that the AI is suddenly being smart...) and basically just doing what you could as a player, your almost sure to lose, but hell if it wouldn't be fun anyway. I'd play this mode loss after loss after loss after loss seeking that win, forever, I'd never want to leave, it'd be L4D addictive, DE could start selling cosmetics for the enemy for god sake and I'd dig in xD

 

But anyway, not doing anything will just result in - like any other game - endless re balancing of the core game for a user base that will never be satisfied without a mode in some way similar to the three.

 

Again just my opinion, history repeats itself in almost every game I've ever followed and falls short sooner than it should, or at least doesn't hit the heights I feel it could. I honestly hope one of the last two concepts hits DE in a way they consider it, as they devote small resources and retain many players but by no means have any expectations : I'm happy either way, but watch people leave - grow disinterested - or just don't take interest because of a lack of unique takes like this. 

Edited July 30, 2013 by Azraill

[CapricaSix]

Well said, dude. I agree with everything, except... where did the "playing as the enemy" come from now? Is this now a PVP thread? Where's my "support lotus character"? lol :|

Edited July 30, 2013 by CapricaSix

[alocrius]

No reason not to implement this.  Mostly because it's a very simple solution.  Instead of DE creating whole new hardcore levels/content they could just throw us a few hardcore frames/characters..  What would be cool would be if these unlock with mastery levels and would provide increased resource gathering.  They could be a contingent of scientists or engineers looking for new technologies (which would account for increased resource gathering rate).  A prestige class that helps resource gathering, brilliant.