Rewards, not rewarding

[Kryael]

EDIT: I don't need credits  it's just an example

__________________________________

Good day Tennos,

let's talk about my impressions regarding Rewards. In my opinion lot's of, but not all of  the rewards are pointless.
To provide a decent reward system players should get more out of each rotation.

For example:

T1 Survival Rotation A 14,29% chance to get 1000 Credits. 

It's fine you started this game, got 1k  sure why not. Now you extend your limits, and go for 85 minutes.
The waves are getting stronger and their level is higher everything is harder than before so there is 
the question, why do I get a 14,29% chance to only get 1000 Credits. 

I know what you're  thinking 'Duuuuude  just start the mission again ezzzz'.

That's true, there is no point going past Rotation C, except you are grinding XP or farming stuff.
There you go this is the way to open up to a more rewarding  late game. Imagine a world
where you get more / higher quality stuff the longer you stay in Survival / Defence / Excavation / Interception.

'What is more tho ?'

This question is problably hard to handle but in my opinion it should be something along the line of:

Reward = Rotation * Cycle
That means for exaple: You did 45 Min that are 2 cycles and the first of the third cycle. (we stick with the 1k credits)
Reward= 1000credits * 3

So in direct comparison:

The outcome of the current and my reward system would be (if we say we get 1k credits each time):
5.000 Credits in the current system and 
9.000 Credits in my reward system.

 

My second suggestion is like just adding a reward of the rotation per cycle. 

That  means you get 3 rewards of rotation A after 45 minutes. For example 
1.000, 1.500 and 2.000 credits .

That way it's less likely to get three of the same relic / mod at once.

________________________________________________________________

I know that people will be able to farm Relics easier, but hell if they stay 80 minutes in a T4 Survival  and get
10 AXI relicts, damn they deserve it. We deserve it. Even if  it's a Banshee composition if  banshee is the reason
you don't want to  do it - nerf her.

now  gimme your flame

 

Kryael

Edited November 14, 2017 by Kryael

[(PSN)joshw1400]

41 minutes ago, Kryael said:

now  gimme your flame

Ok

[Tokens210]

people would most likey find a way to game said system, like back in the old void days where thats where prime parts dropped people were running 3+ hour endless mission types possibly coming out with like 30+ prime parts and it apparently turned out some of those people were using exploits or something of that nature, well according to players, ive never looked it up myself, but i dont put anything past people lol

[Retchid]

My question would be why do you need extra credits?

Can just sell mods and Harrow/Oberon parts to get zillions so getting 9000 credits is as pointless as 1000 especially given that 3 rounds of Helene will give you 20k and selling all your duplicate mods for 600k (when you realize that you can).

DE is just saying HAH so you thought you could just grind for relics with ease - well you can't.

(in reality you can on Helene where Meso relics drop most rounds)

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Retchid

[NeithanDiniem]

"Why can't I get better rewards for staying in one mission for a long time?"

Because DE do not support long term endless mission runs because rewarding people for doing so disproportionatly to the node or difficulty makes that method be the preferred method, making new players far more likely to get stuck in a mission like this when they just want to go a reasonable number of waves and move on, and making people grind far more because the herd mentality that the better rewards are a better use of their time and leading to more complaints of grind and enemy scaling imbalance.

The game as DE made it and as they have stated many times was not designed to cater to long term endless, but it does allow it for those that want it. If you want credits, run something that rewards credits in good amounts, like a LoR or sortie or high end dark sector with a credit boost.

[Kryael]

1 hour ago, Retchid said:

My question would be why do you need extra credits?

Can just sell mods and Harrow/Oberon parts to get zillions so getting 9000 credits is as pointless as 1000 especially given that 3 rounds of Helene will give you 20k and selling all your duplicate mods for 600k (when you realize that you can).

DE is just saying HAH so you thought you could just grind for relics with ease - well you can't.

(in reality you can on Helene where Meso relics drop most rounds)

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Tokens210 said:

people would most likey find a way to game said system, like back in the old void days where thats where prime parts dropped people were running 3+ hour endless mission types possibly coming out with like 30+ prime parts and it apparently turned out some of those people were using exploits or something of that nature, well according to players, ive never looked it up myself, but i dont put anything past people lol

I don't need more credits - i don't need more relics, i  don't need more  prime parts. Point is, i don't feel rewarded, doing something difficult. Without that rewarding feeling,
i feel less motivated to play and if i by any chance get something useful out of a mission, it doesn't feel like  a accomplishment but more like 'jeez finally'. Example:

You want Pistol Ammo Mutation (Survival T3 Rota C 3,76% Drop Rate) The probability is
that you get 1 during 24 C Rotation runs. If you're unlucky that's about 8 hours. After that many hours 
spent farming it, it doesn't feel rewarding.

In my second suggestion, you increase your probability causing you to spent less time but have a 
increased difficulty to master. This way you may feel challenged and you are motivated to do better.

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

"Why can't I get better rewards for staying in one mission for a long time?"

Because DE do not support long term endless mission runs because rewarding people for doing so disproportionatly to the node or difficulty makes that method be the preferred method, making new players far more likely to get stuck in a mission like this when they just want to go a reasonable number of waves and move on, and making people grind far more because the herd mentality that the better rewards are a better use of their time and leading to more complaints of grind and enemy scaling imbalance.

The game as DE made it and as they have stated many times was not designed to cater to long term endless, but it does allow it for those that want it. If you want credits, run something that rewards credits in good amounts, like a LoR or sortie or high end dark sector with a credit boost.

In Defense players are able to leave, after 5 Waves, that's something you can patch in for the other
endless Mission Types as well. So with that out of the way the question is why not support long term
endless runs ?

It's not like it my suggestion blows out of propotion. Even if you get tons of relic, you still need void
traces, you still need to crack them open and hope for the best. 

You mentioned  complaints of grind - the game is based on grinding. Similar to Diablo 3 - 
I just assume you've heard of it. There are 13 Difficulties each  difficulty brings more rewards,
unlike Warframe - here are the rewards equal from the frist cycle up to cycle xy.

The mentality is already based on grinding. You want a weapon ? You need Mastery Rank. Need
mastery points ? Get Levels and other weapons and so on and so on. You grind all the time 
giving players a better feeling  about it makes them enjoy it more. 

 

and god damn i don't need  anything especially not credits- i have what i want i'm just trying to  improve the game by  mention mmy observation

Edited November 13, 2017 by Kryael

[NeithanDiniem]

1 hour ago, Kryael said:

 

I don't need more credits - i don't need more relics, i  don't need more  prime parts. Point is, i don't feel rewarded, doing something difficult. Without that rewarding feeling,
i feel less motivated to play and if i by any chance get something useful out of a mission, it doesn't feel like  a accomplishment but more like 'jeez finally'. Example:

You want Pistol Ammo Mutation (Survival T3 Rota C 3,76% Drop Rate) The probability is
that you get 1 during 24 C Rotation runs. If you're unlucky that's about 8 hours. After that many hours 
spent farming it, it doesn't feel rewarding.

In my second suggestion, you increase your probability causing you to spent less time but have a 
increased difficulty to master. This way you may feel challenged and you are motivated to do better.

In Defense players are able to leave, after 5 Waves, that's something you can patch in for the other
endless Mission Types as well. So with that out of the way the question is why not support long term
endless runs ?

It's not like it my suggestion blows out of propotion. Even if you get tons of relic, you still need void
traces, you still need to crack them open and hope for the best. 

You mentioned  complaints of grind - the game is based on grinding. Similar to Diablo 3 - 
I just assume you've heard of it. There are 13 Difficulties each  difficulty brings more rewards,
unlike Warframe - here are the rewards equal from the frist cycle up to cycle xy.

The mentality is already based on grinding. You want a weapon ? You need Mastery Rank. Need
mastery points ? Get Levels and other weapons and so on and so on. You grind all the time 
giving players a better feeling  about it makes them enjoy it more. 

 

and god damn i don't need  anything especially not credits- i have what i want i'm just trying to  improve the game by  mention mmy observation

Your observation is over the short term reward, not the long term overall experience that developers have to think about. A change has to be weighed to see how it will impact long term. Making long term endless be rewarding enough to be something people would prefer to do makes it become the only way to do it efficiently. It becomes the meta, just like how people have dissected the Eidolon fight and get 10+kills a night. If you want the isea to be credible you gotta get it more in depth.

[Kryael]

20 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Your observation is over the short term reward, not the long term overall experience that developers have to think about. A change has to be weighed to see how it will impact long term. Making long term endless be rewarding enough to be something people would prefer to do makes it become the only way to do it efficiently. It becomes the meta, just like how people have dissected the Eidolon fight and get 10+kills a night. If you want the isea to be credible you gotta get it more in depth.

what you are mentioning is my point. if people are able to setting up a group that supports each other to take on endless waves of enemy the shoud capitalize on it. This way you not only reward them with bonus loot but also let players create a bond to each other. Also is that something one may or may not want to 
achieve since as of now there is no point of 'being strong', you dont need to 'min max' and consider your 
build - you don't have think about possible synergys.

And to go more into it:

Long term speaking - after a few weeks/months a lot of people will have set up to for and spend time 
longer times in missions. That'll create 3 kinds of  pools:

those who don't want to/can't do it yet ,
those who do it,
those that goes beyond the 'casual' wave,

As a gamer that played multiple games to an extend that i'm not proud of I can mention other
games that have successfully implanted a similar reward system.

World of Warcraft - Mythic+ Dungeons
A system where you fight the same enemys in a harder difficulty  and even with handicap as player.

Diablo 3 - Torment Difficulty
Dark Souls - New Game +

Each and every game, rewards you to if you go further, try harder, think outside the box.
Those aren't no name games from no name companys.  Rewarding players that achieve something
that motivates players to play the game. 

It's also great publicity - Warframe streamers can show you how to get to cycle xy, come up
with builds and share it. People will watch and learn, maybe think of something on their own.

In my opinion this change will happen, sooner or later but to me - i hope it will happen sooner since,
the only thing  attractive to me is the  endless waves well and riven mods.

[peterc3]

DE does not seem to want to incentivize long endless runs beyond getting some high score of time. Given an ability to remain stealthed, there is no time limit that I couldn't breeze past. Given Covert Lethality and a means of stealth or being able to put enemies to sleep, I can face infinite levels of enemies. No need to think outside the box when everyone knows how big the box is, what the box is made of and are given access to the tools to shred the box as a routine part of the game.

What works in WoW, D3 and DS does not mean it will work for WF. WoW is over 10 years old, has released numerous expansions, each require an initial buy and to play the game requires a monthly subscription. Blizzard has the luxury of money and time. DE doesn't.

You're drawing parallels where there are none. DE seems rather capable of getting publicity when they want it. Streamers are the least of the methods. 

[Kryael]

11 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

DE does not seem to want to incentivize long endless runs beyond getting some high score of time. Given an ability to remain stealthed, there is no time limit that I couldn't breeze past. Given Covert Lethality and a means of stealth or being able to put enemies to sleep, I can face infinite levels of enemies. No need to think outside the box when everyone knows how big the box is, what the box is made of and are given access to the tools to shred the box as a routine part of the game.

What works in WoW, D3 and DS does not mean it will work for WF. WoW is over 10 years old, has released numerous expansions, each require an initial buy and to play the game requires a monthly subscription. Blizzard has the luxury of money and time. DE doesn't.

You're drawing parallels where there are none. DE seems rather capable of getting publicity when they want it. Streamers are the least of the methods. 

Fair point, but as you're mentioning  'the box'  is very big but there is so little you can do that  feels rewarding. I'm not asking DE to reinvent everything, create dungeons, raids, new planets  and new
features. 

It's just like I mentioned, my idea is not blowing out of propotion. If you really take a good look at it
For example  Survival T3  45 mins.:

2 Complete Cycles + Rotation A

Current Reward System                   My idea

3x Rotation A reward                            6x Rotation A reward 
2x Rotation A reward                            3x Rotation A reward 
2x Rotation B reward                            3x Rotation B reward 
2x Rotation C reward                            3x Rotation C reward 

And if the  loot table is 'too mighty', just add some loot. (Endo for example).
 

I'm not  drawing parallels where there are none, I'm pointing at ideas of successul games that all
came to the conclusion if player defeating stronger foes they shall be rewarded with 'more'.

That's a basic buiness concept. When Minecraft released 2009 it was almost unique, a lot of 
developers tried to invent a similar game and they still do. 

What I'm lacking to see from everyone that replied is, why don't you try to see my point of view?

 

[Kryael]

mh