Does Anyone Actually Like The Presence Of Primes?

[E.R.I.C]

i hate my life

[Jelan]

Not the way they are now. These priems should have been skins lke the Dagger Axe. You'd still need to get the parts and everything but you wouldn't need to restart your weapon from 0. No, not everyone has the basic weapons, but most do and if you had the patience to get the pats for a prime, you will have the patience to farm the resources for the basic version. Or the game could just ask us before the beginning of the crafting process if we want it as a skin or as a stand alone gun or if we want to transfer the level and formas from the basic gun. Or give different weapons altogether instead a priming existing ones. It's much easier to swallow having to grind another weapon if it's a new weapon, not just an upgrade.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Mastery's not an issue.  All they have to do is ensure that the sum total of mastery from event items does not ever bump you up into having more power than someone who missed all of them.

 

The thing is, I'm not a fan of skins.  They make no sense from a lore standpoint and are a slap in the face to people already using it.  I know it's a beta and DE has every right to do it, but I don't see it being the right choice.

 

Being able to transfer over at least the forma from a default to a prime might work.  Fear of losing forma is the sole reason I stopped forma'ing after Volt and Burston because then they started releasing primes which were upgrades.

[Azraill]

 

The thing is, I'm not a fan of skins.  They make no sense from a lore standpoint and are a slap in the face to people already using it.  I know it's a beta and DE has every right to do it, but I don't see it being the right choice.

 

Being able to transfer over at least the forma from a default to a prime might work.  Fear of losing forma is the sole reason I stopped forma'ing after Volt and Burston because then they started releasing primes which were upgrades.

 

How are skins not lore friendly? I mean, from this perspective anyway : 

 

You obtain Paris and master it, you forma it, remaster it, repeat several times to the point the weapon itself, and your ability to use it has reached peak levels. It's at it's height of it's potential with the current materials and technology. 

 

You travel to the Void, obtaining pieces of the technology that made "Paris Prime" so great : and begin stripping the ... bowstring off your Paris, and replace it with the Prime's.. you strip the inner shell of the Paris, and place the Prime parts, you wear the handguard.. and suddenly the bow you've been using is now upgraded. Your Paris is now Paris Prime, Rank 0 with the Forma's still functioning, the catalyst still intact. Relevel it to 30 (because your not used to the new weight of the weapon? Perhaps the handguards are unusually shaped! I don't know.) and your done.

 

Now you raise your brow at the bulky handguard and the strange paintjob you did in gold, and wonder if those prime parts leaked radiation because up until now you've been painting everything all black, or white, or a mix of red's, green's, or whatever and now.. for some reason.. you chose gold! Ugh, and that handguard... So what's stopping you from tossing the handguard away, because, you don't need it .. it's not Ninjaah! Taking some spare salvage and covering up the old paintjob, and making it look like Dread, or Paris?

 

Is it somewhere in the Lore the Prime's couldn't be repainted? That salvage couldn't give the Prime a new design? That you couldn't mix the old orokin tech into current weaponary? 

[ValhaHazred]

I like Primes, and will toss a potatoed item without a second thought to get it's Prime. Just like I did with Latron and will do with Paris.

Admittedly the only things I've Forma'd are Nova and the Flux rifle. Forma is a bigger investment and risk and I accept that. If a Nova Prime comes out I'll probably just keep them both.

Edit: I've noticed complaints about the gold parts on primes, and while I'm not opposed to the idea of "classic X" skins, I'd never use them. I like the shiny!

Edited July 31, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[Volt_Cruelerz]

How are skins not lore friendly? I mean, from this perspective anyway : 

 

You obtain Paris and master it, you forma it, remaster it, repeat several times to the point the weapon itself, and your ability to use it has reached peak levels. It's at it's height of it's potential with the current materials and technology. 

 

You travel to the Void, obtaining pieces of the technology that made "Paris Prime" so great : and begin stripping the ... bowstring off your Paris, and replace it with the Prime's.. you strip the inner shell of the Paris, and place the Prime parts, you wear the handguard.. and suddenly the bow you've been using is now upgraded. Your Paris is now Paris Prime, Rank 0 with the Forma's still functioning, the catalyst still intact. Relevel it to 30 (because your not used to the new weight of the weapon? Perhaps the handguards are unusually shaped! I don't know.) and your done.

 

Now you raise your brow at the bulky handguard and the strange paintjob you did in gold, and wonder if those prime parts leaked radiation because up until now you've been painting everything all black, or white, or a mix of red's, green's, or whatever and now.. for some reason.. you chose gold! Ugh, and that handguard... So what's stopping you from tossing the handguard away, because, you don't need it .. it's not Ninjaah! Taking some spare salvage and covering up the old paintjob, and making it look like Dread, or Paris?

 

Is it somewhere in the Lore the Prime's couldn't be repainted? That salvage couldn't give the Prime a new design? That you couldn't mix the old orokin tech into current weaponary? 

You make a good argument, but unfortunately that doesn't resolve the issue with the slap in the face it would be to those that already have them.

[gell]

I just think Primes need to be consistent. Some are just reskins (Orthos Prime), some are straight upgrades, and some are sidegrades that are usually slightly better DPS (I like this option the most).

 

As long as they are consistent compared to their non-primes, I'm happy. The reason is they are harder to get than non-primes (don't tell me they're super easy to get when I only have a few hours at most to play per day and I have to depend on an RNG within an RNG to get the parts I need). I prefer sidegrades with a benefit since they're hard to get, but don't outshine the non-primes entirely. Braton Prime is a... prime example of a weapon that is mostly an upgrade but not entirely, since it has a lower fire rate. Some folks will prefer the faster fire rate of a Braton.

[Eirshy]

@Batler, you missed the last line of my post.

 

By not making Frost Prime exclusive, once they have more primes out, they can actually add more features to the primes than just one free polarity, Death Orb interaction, and swag.

 

Also, with the introduction of more tower keys, the amount of Frost Primes compared to Frosts will receed as we no-longer get Frost Prime parts from *all* keys. Regular Frost is still way more accessible, and other than swag, doesn't really miss out on anything. Hell, if you wanna use one of the alt-helms, half your swag goes away on Frost Prime.

 

 

Is it somewhere in the Lore the Prime's couldn't be repainted? That salvage couldn't give the Prime a new design? That you couldn't mix the old orokin tech into current weaponary? 

 

The gold trim maybe, but this is (likely) just like the Latron Prime. You originally couldn't recolor the marble on it, until one day you could.

 

The recoloring is on its way... just the gold trim we're stuck with (for now). I wouldn't be surprised if the gold trim got a color option as well.

Edited July 31, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[RoboDoge]

I dont even pay attention is some frame is prime or not. Why? After DE made Frost Prime BP availible as Void reward i only see overflow of bad Frosts. Most of the people that are using Frost Prime use because they are thinking that he is more powerful than an regular Frost. And most dont know how to use it.

 

So i started to not pay any attention to primes because it doesnt mean anything. I am neither annoyed nor happy because of them. If skilled player uses Frost or Frost Prime i dont care.

[Ceilous]

 

 

Not really even that much of a problem, in my eyes. Besides, it's not like they nerfed that potato'd and quintuple-forma'd Braton you might have had when the released the Braton Prime. You still have a potato'd and quintuple-forma'd Braton. It's just you now have something to strive for if you want a *better* Braton- which you clearly would if you put forth *that* much effort to strengthen that S#&$ty rifle (I can't stand the Braton's accuracy, myself).

 

uhm...How is the Braton inaccurate? sure its not supposed to be used for sniping but its a Assault Rifle or SMG (depending how you look at it) so if your a sniper you can't really say much about it because its not in your arsenal. (I'm sorry for sounding/being hostile. The Braton just gets punched and kicked all the time but its still a very reliable weapon. Heck I've brought it on Pluto and Ceres runs and its performed exceptional). give the Braton some love and it'll love you x3 back.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

They look cool but then they sound awful and take ten @(*()$ orokin cells. So I'm not too keen on them anymore.

[Dasmir]

Pretty much even if makes the copy version "obsolate" a prime can make a low tier/early game weapon into end-game one.

 

Sicarus prime, Burston prime, grakata prime and list goes.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Dasmir

[Eirshy]

uhm...How is the Braton inaccurate? sure its not supposed to be used for sniping but its a Assault Rifle or SMG (depending how you look at it) so if your a sniper you can't really say much about it because its not in your arsenal. (I'm sorry for sounding/being hostile. The Braton just gets punched and kicked all the time but its still a very reliable weapon. Heck I've brought it on Pluto and Ceres runs and its performed exceptional). give the Braton some love and it'll love you x3 back.

 

Compared to the Mk1 it's inaccurate.

Compared to Twin Vipers, it (at least) feels more inaccurate.

Compared to the Dera, carbines, or snipers (which all have borderline perfect accuracy), it's horribly inaccurate.

 

It's not *bad*, but it is massively over-rated in my eyes. Also, it gets out-performed by the Boltor in nearly every situation because you can't guarantee headshots with it even at mid-range, and it gets out-perfomed by the Dera even against Grineer because the Dera *can* consistantly get headshots.

 

Braton Prime could potentially beat the Dera against Grineer (higher base damage) minus the accuracy issue, but it still gets beaten by the Boltor (though only barely against medium grineer thanks to the 1.5x AP they take).

 

Here's the math and the spreadsheet I used from the last post of this I had to make. I didn't account for the other elemental multipliers (so 400 armor medium grineer might take more from the brat prime), but vs 900 armor that really don't even matter as 10% * 2 (electric/fire weaknesses on corpus/infested) only puts you at 20% extra damage. Even Sonar only puts 900 armor at 65% damage (rather than 10%).

 

 

 

Yeah never meant to say that it shouldn't be viable, just saying that high accuracy and innate armor ignore massively trump mods at the current moment.

 

Misread your post as being a standard Braton Fanboi post (Davoodoo's reply is that, I'll sink my teeth into him in a moment). I appologize for that.

 

 

Alright then let's run some math, shall we?

 

Lemme find my spreadsheet that does this all for me...

 

Ah, here it is.

I added a line for the Braton Prime.

 

Shooting 400 armor and shooting 900 armor, the Boltor beats the Braton and the Braton Prime in full cycle DPS (including reloads). This is most accurate against Heavy Grineer Gunners, as they apply armor to all parts of their body. However, this is also the best "general case" shooting against the body of something chart.

 

 

Medium Grineer have a 1.5x amp to AP, but also apply armor everywhere. Here's a chart for vs them.

 

As you can see, the Braton Prime *just barely* loses to the Boltor in terms of full cycle dps against medium grineer as well.

 

 

"But Headshots"

> Implying the boltor can't do them as well- though they do boost the Braton's damage more (on non-grineer) by allowing it to get around armor.

> Implying the Braton's accurate enough to go full auto and land every single shot in the target's weakpoint (you're funny).

> Implying Sonar can't be added to give the Boltor a HUGE damage amp compared to your precious Braton's headshots while the boltor is doing *body shots*

 

 

 

Basically. If you mod it right you can still probably kill the lv9x in one clip (well, *technically* two, since it's a double weapon) of your vipers, but over all, despair is better actual dps.

 

And a note, Forma itself doesn't add any power. Most secondaries can be completely pimped out with 3-4 polarities. Due to Split Chamber costing 15 instead of BD's 11, Primaries tend to require 5 polarities.

 

Oh and as I always say... mods are % increases, only crit builds can make the "it sucks without mods" argument legitimate, as those aren't the same effective increase on every weapon (Lex in a crit build beats the Seer for sniping, out of a crit build the Seer beats the Lex, Seer can't build crit (0 crit chance base)). While all guns get better with mods, it doesn't change the fact that a better base gun will still be better if you give it the same level of love for mods.

 

 

 

It's mostly an issue with armor scaling in this game. Currently you either headshot or use armor ignore weapons- or you don't really deal much damage. Grineer are the only ones where you can't even do that, as Medium and Heavy Grineer all have every part armored. If you're vs them, totally shoot the sonar blotch regardless of your weapon choice. 5-6.5x is better than 2x (sonar on body vs non-sonar head).

Edited August 1, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[RustyNaps]

If prime stuff was useful sure. All weapons and frames though can be made a prime version by formas and orokin catalysts because thats basically what a "prime" version is, a forma'd/catalyst'd/reactor weapon or frame with a new sick design. Some have different stats but it's really nothing to farm over.

 

[Eirshy]

If prime stuff was useful sure. All weapons and frames though can be made a prime version by formas and orokin catalysts because thats basically what a "prime" version is, a forma'd/catalyst'd/reactor weapon or frame with a new sick design. Some have different stats but it's really nothing to farm over.

 

This...

Paris Prime's the only one that is really a hardcore upgrade, but the Paris itself is complete S#&$ compared to the Dread to begin with (even losing in damage on *body shots* on medium grineer under level 124 or so), so that's not really saying much. Gain of 50% damage over all.

 

Latron Prime has a gain of ~26.6% in a crit build.

 

Braton Prime gains 5 shots in the mag, loses some rof, and a gain of 25% damage. Still runs into issues of armor scaling and not being accurate enough to really ignore it, and is thus still out-performed in practice by the Dera in most situations, and statistically by the Boltor in nearly all.

 

Bronco Prime is actually quite different from the Bronco and the Dual Broncos, so it doesn't really count (High single shot burst, slower fire rate and reload; sort of a mid-way of the single and dual, but not exactly).

Edited August 1, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Tenyu]

In my opinion i don't mind having prime things but not too much. I have to think for a long time before actually potatoing any one of my weapon or frames since theres a chance that a primed version may come out and when it does, it just saddens me since i pumped so much resources into it AND THE PRIME VERSION LOOKS GODDAMN COOLER. B>PRIME SKINS

[zyraconne]

In my opinion i don't mind having prime things but not too much. I have to think for a long time before actually potatoing any one of my weapon or frames since theres a chance that a primed version may come out and when it does, it just saddens me since i pumped so much resources into it AND THE PRIME VERSION LOOKS GODDAMN COOLER. B>PRIME SKINS

How many more of these "hold on to yer potatoes" do you need to be convinced that the existence of Prime weapons are already becoming a detriment to playing the game?

 

As for those keep saying that the Prime version is nothing, just compare it and answer this yourself: If you have only one Orokin Catalyst, which do you put it on? Answer each individually.

- Braton or Braton Prime?

- Latron or Latron Prime?

- Paris or Paris Prime?

- Bronco or Bronco Prime?

- Hate or Reaper Prime? (see what I did there?)

[theammostore]

And if you do, please explain why?  

 

Is it because it gives you something to farm for?  If so, doesn't that mean that you're just happy to have it because it is filler material until the devs make a real endgame?

 

All I see when I see them is just an upgrade to something you've already spent time on.  People avoid content because they're waiting on the prime of it.  That's an issue.  Right now, I just see things that make players avoid content and invite power creep.  I don't mind the idea of tiered weapons, but the thing is, these are straight upgrades.

 

I just don't see what good they bring to the table.  Can someone who is a fan of them explain why they would be good?

 

Also, there are some obvious issues with primes, so perhaps if we could discover what good they bring to the table, we could suggest a change that keeps the good but reduces the negative impacts on gameplay they cause.

 

 

EDIT: yes, obviously they're pretty.  I'm talking about things beyond that.  They're mechanically upgrades to their defaults.  How does this enhance gameplay?

I like them. A) gives me something to do B) I'm a collector and C) I get a reward for basically using the same weapon over again. Here is my awesome Latron. Now I have a better LAtron that I can use to get even more mastery points so I can finally unlock that Acrid or Supra or whatever.

[Evauia]

I would like them if it was another way to use a weapon. The bronco prime is a great example, do you want to shoot and relaod fast, or do you want to do more burst damage with slower fire rate and reload. The paris prime is something I hate as there is no reason to have the paris any more, in end game if you bring a paris you would be asked "why don't you have the paris prime its better." that is something I hate, potatoes are few and far between so if you are like me and potatoed the paris you wasted a potato on a now obsolete weapon.

 

Well then buy some potatoes with Platinum.  If you refuse to spend money on this game then, no offense, but your opinion is not regarded very high as you provide nothing to help DE when they provide you with countless hours of entertainment.  Not saying you do not spend any money at all on the game, just saying Primes is not a problem at all for people who pay general as much as you would for a triple A mmo sub (more or less) and they are actually happy that these weapons exist.

[Oizen]

I like feeling leetpro over non prime frosts

[Ronyn]

If they were skins or upgrades that you apply to regulars...

I'd love primes.

Being that they are either near identical or markedly better than regulars YET require leveling up themselves..

I really can't stand them. 

[zezzame]

Well then buy some potatoes with Platinum.  If you refuse to spend money on this game then, no offense, but your opinion is not regarded very high as you provide nothing to help DE when they provide you with countless hours of entertainment.  Not saying you do not spend any money at all on the game, just saying Primes is not a problem at all for people who pay general as much as you would for a triple A mmo sub (more or less) and they are actually happy that these weapons exist.

If you look I have given DE my money and the only thing holding me back from giving them more is the fact that they straight up make a weapon that you may or may not have spent money on redundant, I love the paris but now it is useless when compared to the paris prime. the dread was a good balance with more damage but no AI so both had reasons to be left behind or taken with you. now the paris prime throws that out the window and makes either one the bad choice.

And when people say it was needed to deal with the bullet spongy enemies, they should be fixed and be made more interesting to fight not take more bullets.  

[Clessiah]

I think they came out too early and too easy to get. Also feels cheap because DE aren't actually making any new weapons, just one with same concept but slightly better for each weapon to double the amount of weapons in the game. New concepts please.

 

They should have made the back story first. Get us excited for what these Prime equipment represent in the world of Warframe, not just because they deal 5 more damage with 5% more crit rate.

[tengenkujaku]

I can't see the issue.

"THEY'RE BETTER THAN THEIR BASE VERSIONS"

That's... the... point? Better weapons for more experienced players who need them.

[Evauia]

If you look I have given DE my money and the only thing holding me back from giving them more is the fact that they straight up make a weapon that you may or may not have spent money on redundant, I love the paris but now it is useless when compared to the paris prime. the dread was a good balance with more damage but no AI so both had reasons to be left behind or taken with you. now the paris prime throws that out the window and makes either one the bad choice.

And when people say it was needed to deal with the bullet spongy enemies, they should be fixed and be made more interesting to fight not take more bullets.  

 

I do agree that they need to fix enemy scaling and enemy AI