Bullet Sponge Enemies, This Isn't Hard This Is Boring.

[grndragon]

Have you fought Raptor? That boss is mad fun and isn't a bullet sponge.

i don't know how the raptor is a fun boss to fight. its not a good example of a good boss fight since its basically "use certain frames or don't even bother" or "play this third person shooter like a cover based shooter even when its not designed for that"

i fought him to get the nova BP's, i don't plan to fight him again since he isn't fun. as the OP says about the way the difficulity is in the game, it is a dead on accurate boss who serves as a bullet sponge with extreme damage. taking from the OP:

 

Higher damage is acceptable at some level, it makes you take more care to avoid enemy fire. Still the enemies on Warframe are deadly accurate, it's very hard to avoid incoming projectiles and, if you stay still, they will never miss. Alone higher damage wouldn't be a issue but when combined with higher life, then you have a problem.

 

Higher damaging and resistant enemies don't make a game more challenging. Smarter enemies makes a game more challenging, how about making the enemies coordinate their strikes? Improving the AI is the way to make a game more challenging and also more believable.

the raptor boss is a good example of what he said;

 

the raptor boss right now:

1. has a lot of health

2. does enough damage to kill most frames in 1-3 shots

3. is dead on accurate with laser cannons and homing missiles

4. does not telegraph any of its attacks

5. hinders visibility because of the enormous explosions from his spammed rockets.

 

these aren't qualities that make for a fun boss; sure, it is hard, but its not fun. its artificial difficulity. the same as the OP talked about. i wouldnt mind a raptor boss that kept having high damage, but which you could easily dodge if you knew how too. one with better AI, tactics and coordination. but the boss doesen't; it just hovers around the arena, spamming dead on accurate missiles and laser shots.

[11.11.11]

 What you're suggesting requires a complete overhaul of the game system and Warframes abilities to work. This is why damage/health scaling is required.

 

Yes that is exactly what I'm suggesting. 

 

It's exactly what I think needs to happen for us to get any enjoyment out of the combat we have on offer here. Otherwise even the boss battles are going to become (and already have done for a lot of people) repetitive, or:

 

but the boss doesen't; it just hovers around the arena, spamming dead on accurate missiles and laser shots.

 

..frustrating and un-engaging. 

[grndragon]

 

..frustrating and un-engaging. 

exactly the words i was looking for, thank you

[MECT_HET]

I thought about improving gameplay a bit. Well, avoiding the dramatical overhaul, there's 2 thing DE could do to increase game potent:

 

1. Make maneuvers more simple to complete!!! Yes, all these parkour moves are awesome, but, come one, holding right mouse button and A, when press Shift to roll to the left??? Stuuuuupiiiiid! Check Mass Effect 3. All you need there for your dodging is press A+space. Nothing more. And now tell me, where people are using combat roll more often? This will neutalize enemies' cheated accuracy a bit and make game a bit more fun.

 

2. Make weak spots really weak! It shouldn't be about armor, health or level. I mean, who cares what level you are when the bullet hits your head? To be more balancing - force people to hit there 2-3-4-5 times, but not 2 clips!

[Lenzerker]

Yes I get the point, but I'm saying that it's delusional. What you're looking for is "advanced" AI on weak enemies. What are you expecting the AI to do in a game like this? Take cover? They already do. Try to flank you? They also do that. What else, I dare you to suggest, should the AI be doing at this point? Squad tactics? Should they move together in tight packs so you can kill them even more easily? In the end of the day this whole AI debacle just feels like a roundabout way to ask DE to make the enemies easier (while convincing yourself they are not and patting each other on the back for being able to overcome "smart" enemies).

 

I think you are missing the point. I didn't said that higher damage and higher life can't be used, the problem is how you're going to use it. Especially when they are combined.

 

I didn't mention before but we also have the fact that most missions (with the exception of the exterminate ones) have unlimited enemies, but lucky me, we don't have unlimited bullets.

 

Also even on a full squad you're outnumbered in the majority of combat situations, and since, by logical reasons, you can only aim at one enemy at a time, you will be fired by four or five different points. That's the main strength of the enemies, their numbers, they don't need to withstand a lot of abuse because they are many.

 

Now to call a fight fair I would say that the basic enemy units could never surpass the player in damage resistance, exactly because you are one they are unlimited. Even at the same damage resistance their numbers give then a significant advantage.

 

And we all know that at higher levels basic units can withstand more damage than maxed frames. Or am I wrong?

Edited August 1, 2013 by Lenzerker

[A5PECT]

And we all know that at higher levels basic units can withstand more damage than maxed frames. Or am I wrong?

I'm pretty sure by the time you leave Mercury standard enemies will be absorbing more damage than an appropriately-leveled frame.

[11.11.11]

I'm pretty sure by the time you leave Mercury standard enemies will be absorbing more damage than an appropriately-leveled frame.

 

This is an issue. Especially if we're going to have to fight 30 of them at once. 

[Lenzerker]

"Better" AI can only go so far. There's no meaning in consoling yourself that the enemy has incredible AI if they die from 1-2 shots. This is a run and gun action game at heart, and the only way to make enemies harder is making them hit harder and take more damage before going down.

That's what run and gun games are. It doesn't mean you literally run and gun all the time, it means that gameplay is simple and the difficulty is determined by the number and toughness of enemies. The "roadblocks" is what challenges are.

This makes me think you don't understand a lot about combat and squad tactics. Do you?

 

What are you expecting the AI to do in a game like this? Take cover? They already do. Try to flank you? They also do that. What else, I dare you to suggest, should the AI be doing at this point? Squad tactics? Should they move together in tight packs so you can kill them even more easily?

The tactics you mention are in the game yes, but they're not used in an efficient way, it seems more like random choice. It's not uncommon to see an enemy "taking cover" right in front of you, being completly exposed. Also they can't even put a grenade to good use.

 

You cannot make it so that lvl 100 Grineer are "smarter" than lvl 30 Grineer. The AI can only affect them as a whole.

Wrong, with addequate coding you can. Also you can toy with other factors, like special abilities for higher level enemies.

 

Let's say... high level Corpus could have portable energy shields (like Volt's power), high level Grineer could have landmines with a large area of effect and high level Infested could expel acid at long range. This are just examples of what could be done.

 

Playing with enemy damage and life isn't, by far, the only way to increase "difficulty".

Edited August 1, 2013 by Lenzerker

[merryfistmas]

This has been discussed quite a bit and for good reason. Any wave based survival or defense game that actually gets more engaging as rounds go on either has different enemy tactics or different types of enemies as the game goes on. Warframe has new enemies to some extent but most of the "difficulty" comes from ancients with 9000 armor and 1000000 health, not from actually being more difficult strategy-wise to kill.

 

Look at the game killing floor. It's not ground breaking or unique in any way and there's tons of games with the same premise but it's one of the most fun wave survival games I've ever played just because the enemies don't get more health or damage at higher waves, they just add more types of enemies and it gets more fun as the game goes on.

 

Warframe only does this up to wave 9 I think? and the enemies don't exactly pose more challenge. They just require more bullets to kill.

 

DE's already proved they can make exciting enemies with the Stalker so if they can apply that to other enemies then the game would be a lot more interesting and fun. I'm not saying higher level enemies shouldn't be tougher and do more damage, just that that shouldn't be the only thing that makes them more difficult.

Edited August 1, 2013 by merryfistmas

[Traithan]

They're steadily re-making the bosses, fret not.

 

Have you fought Raptor? That boss is mad fun and isn't a bullet sponge.

It's a good representation of what the re-made bosses will be like.

Also, Lech and Vor are sensational fights.

 

Raptor is a boring bullet sponge fight with a Frost.

Vor and Kril just sit there forever while I wait for them to become vulnerable again.

 

I don't see how any of those are hard.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Traithan

[Relkin]

I'll just leave this here since its pretty relevant.  

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84269-a-solution-for-the-armor-problem-difficulty-to-an-extent/

 

It's more than just a combat mechanic to add depth to a flat system and validity to all weapons.  The scripts you're looking for require action triggers esp given that the maps are procedural.  I only give one or two examples in that post but there are a quite a few you could build off it and that of course can cascade. 

[zezzame]

More ideas here:

 

at lvl 30+ shield lancers have larger shields that cover their entire body (take off 100 - 300 HP)

at lvl 40+ make them larger and have even larger shields that friendlies can take cover behind (another 100 - 300 HP not need to be added)

also add the ability to wallrun over the shield so you can get to the guys behind the shield but at the cost of exposing your self to what ever may be on the other side

with this you can make it so the shield lancer will never break aggro with a particular player (unless given reason to change), thus making players think of ways to get around him not just shooting over him or walking around.

 

I feel the scorpion should be introduced at around lvl 20+ and only taze you not pull you

30+ have her pull you and be more agile but weaker (she should want to run away from you if she was smart)

Give her things like invisibility at lvl 50+ so she is harder but still easy to kill provided you can find her

 

heavy gunner should (and in a way does) suppress you, but don't make her a bullet sponge give her a shield on her gun at lvl 30+

At lvl 50+ give her a lot of frontal armor but you can stagger her with a slide slash to the legs and shoot her now exposed and opened up back (by leaning forward all the joints of the armor in her back open up)

 

All these things would reduce the need for health and would then encourage tactics

(I haven,t even covered corpus or infested or the other classes the the greneer has)

[Destro6677]

Agree with OP on the main point: making enemies bullet sponges makes them harder to kill, yes, but it's an artificial difficulty of sorts.  I would much rather see improved tactics, increased speed, increased maneuverability, etc. from higher-level enemies.  And yes, a cap on armour/hp increases at some point. 

 

Filling slow-moving mobs with entire magazines is neither fun nor challenging.

This.

 

And another thing I might add is the whole DPS argument.

 

By increasing enemy stats constantly, everyone at end game is going to end up using a Supra.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Destro6677

[Vaskadar]

I like the idea of a smarter AI, but for Sonars sake... the skill "adds" a weak spot on the enemy, not really reveals one. A weak spot often tends to be the head in which you deal 200% damage. Sonar adds one which deals a varying percentage depending on skill level and focus level.

 

In essence, Sonar "adds" a new weak spot per cast. The enemies do have a fixed weak point. Aim for heads if corpus/grineer and aim for limbs/head on infested if you are looking for fixed weak points.

Really depends on the enemy type. For weapons with normal damage, it'll just be 100%.

As far as the OP goes, here's my two cents.

What needs to change here is armor scaling so that enemies do not become relatively impervious to normal damage at levels 60 and above. A sort of soft-cap is necessary.

Enemy diversity will truly make the game more challenging and difficult. Adding more enemies at a single time won't really make the game truly more challenging, but introducing more enemy types at once will, take for example last event's Eviscerator enemies, they were truly difficult to fight amongst other units because of how they behaved (and yes, they did a S#&$-ton of damage too), but combining their attacks with the scorpion attacks and having to be actually wary of enemy positioning made a big difference in the gameplay.

I've also noticed that enemies often do not fire back while being fired upon.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Lenzerker]

I've notice no one comments about an important feature I've talked about.

The enemies should scale in  difficulty based on the number of players on the squad.

What's your thoughts about it?

[PulseNeon]

More ideas here:

 

at lvl 30+ shield lancers have larger shields that cover their entire body (take off 100 - 300 HP)

at lvl 40+ make them larger and have even larger shields that friendlies can take cover behind (another 100 - 300 HP not need to be added)

also add the ability to wallrun over the shield so you can get to the guys behind the shield but at the cost of exposing your self to what ever may be on the other side

with this you can make it so the shield lancer will never break aggro with a particular player (unless given reason to change), thus making players think of ways to get around him not just shooting over him or walking around.

 

I feel the scorpion should be introduced at around lvl 20+ and only taze you not pull you

30+ have her pull you and be more agile but weaker (she should want to run away from you if she was smart)

Give her things like invisibility at lvl 50+ so she is harder but still easy to kill provided you can find her

 

heavy gunner should (and in a way does) suppress you, but don't make her a bullet sponge give her a shield on her gun at lvl 30+

At lvl 50+ give her a lot of frontal armor but you can stagger her with a slide slash to the legs and shoot her now exposed and opened up back (by leaning forward all the joints of the armor in her back open up)

 

All these things would reduce the need for health and would then encourage tactics

(I haven,t even covered corpus or infested or the other classes the the greneer has)

I love OP's post and this post. This kind of gameplay might seem gimmicky, but it modifies the game's flow rather than slow it down. This is what Warframe in a lot of ways -many- games need. This game feels the same as the FPS syndicate, where bullet sponges with regenerating shields unless you could empty an entire clip into an enemy they would just regened...and that were most of the difficult enemies. It wasn't enjoyable at all.

[Pekku]

People seem to ignore the fact that Warframes become demi-gods when maxed out. The gimmicky, tactical enemies are not going to do anything to improve gameplay when you kill them with single shots and AOE ability spams.

[IcarusNine]

People seem to ignore the fact that Warframes become demi-gods when maxed out. The gimmicky, tactical enemies are not going to do anything to improve gameplay when you kill them with single shots and AOE ability spams.

In before Corpus Tech casts Bastille.

[zezzame]

I love OP's post and this post. This kind of gameplay might seem gimmicky, but it modifies the game's flow rather than slow it down. This is what Warframe in a lot of ways -many- games need. This game feels the same as the FPS syndicate, where bullet sponges with regenerating shields unless you could empty an entire clip into an enemy they would just regened...and that were most of the difficult enemies. It wasn't enjoyable at all.

 

Why thank you, I may make a thread of my own stating all my ideas for every faction but can't do that atm

[11.11.11]

People seem to ignore the fact that Warframes become demi-gods when maxed out. The gimmicky, tactical enemies are not going to do anything to improve gameplay when you kill them with single shots and AOE ability spams.

 

So.....increase the rarity of energy and reduce the ability to spam abilities? 

[Pekku]

So.....increase the rarity of energy and reduce the ability to spam abilities? 

 

Without health scaling they're still going to die from several shots of your weapon of choice. Not to mention with a little bit of energy management skill you can most probably have enough to use your ultimates when it's really needed. Also, without health to prolong the enemy encounters people will not have to react and use different tactics. See monkey, shoot the monkey. Bullet sponging is a required mechanic. You can say whatever you want about enemy AI and fight mechanics but they will never work without the additional health to back them up, especially when Warframes reach higher or max levels.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

This topic actually reminded me of a game called Bionic Commando: Rearmed which is a remake of an old NES game. The game actually has the enemy units exploit your knowledge of their previous tactics in order to surprise and pin you down. Having a boss suddenly pull out a new move or tactic on a higher difficulty that exploits your meta-game knowledge of their previous mechanics is very nice and keeps you on your toes. I would really love it if DE would have someone on the team play through that game, because I think it would give them lots of ideas on how to surprise the players on high level areas.

 

However, I don't see high level enemies as bullet sponges because I'm not expecting to solo 80+ level content on my own. No really, it has to be bleedingly obvious that you're not supposed to go at high level defense on your own, or to go up against a void extermination III event unless you're packing extreme gear with equally extreme mods.

[11.11.11]

Without health scaling they're still going to die from several shots of your weapon of choice.

 

Yeah...um...I'm sorry but I disagree completely.

 

A firefight with a single enemy shouldn't stretch on for hours at a time. If these weapons we're using, can't kill enemies in a few seconds then I don't really see why the Tenno are using them. They'd  be better off using a garden rake or something. Enemies should die in a few shots, not three whole magazines (possible exception with bosses). Be it because they have realistic levels of health - or - as is currently the case, because my weapon can be modded to 250% damage.

 

 

Not to mention with a little bit of energy management skill you can most probably have enough to use your ultimates when it's really needed.

 

Good, that's how it should be. Using a bit of organisation, and mod-work to allow you to use your abilities when they're really needed. Not have pimped out Nova's and Vauban's filling the room with Molecular primes and the floor with bounce pads. 

 

 

 

Also, without health to prolong the enemy encounters people will not have to react and use different tactics. See monkey, shoot the monkey. Bullet sponging is a required mechanic.

 

People will have to react and use different tactics if enemies are lethal, and attack in unexpected ways that still fall within the game's core rules for enemies. I freak out and scramble to come up with a creative solution when a Heavy gunner drops down out of hiding in the ceiling vents. Not when I see the fourteenth one come around the corner with 500hp and 10000 shields.

 

 

 

You can say whatever you want about enemy AI and fight mechanics but they will never work without the additional health to back them up, especially when Warframes reach higher or max levels.

 

Currently all they have - is higher HP - there is NO variation in the AI or fight mechanics. In fact the health scaling is so stupid that by round 40 of endless defense, even supercharged frames have to simply resort to stalling the enemies as much as possible so they have the time to chip down their effiel-tower-sized health bars. 

[Pekku]

Thing is, when you're fully modded out, killing "end-game" enemies doesn't take long at all. Let's say they're around level 70-90, because that's what their levels are in T3 missions, the current end-game. A fully modded Braton will take down a heavy in seconds, a Hek in maybe 2-3 shots. Any sniper will kill them with a single shot. The only people who can't do this are the "low level" characters, and let's be fair for a moment, if they aren't maxed out they are supposed to have trouble with the game's end content. That is a very realistic prospect.

 

I know people keep emphasizing on the important of increasing difficulty via tactical means, but let's look at it this way. If a heavy that suddenly popped down from the vents will die from a single shot to the face, where's the threat in that? If there are super clever enemies that will constantly outflank you, they will still not be a threat if they die too easily.

 

What people keep failing to see is that we NEED a combination of good battle mechanics AND health scaling for it to be truly challenging.

 

EDIT: TYPO!!

Edited August 5, 2013 by Pekku

[rksk16it]

I know people keep emphasizing on the important of increasing difficulty via tactical means, but let's look at it this way. If a heavy that suddenly popped down from the vents will die from a single shot to the face, where's the threat in that? If there are super clever enemies will constantly outflank you, they will still not be a threat if they die too easily.

 

So much this.

 

Watch any MoBa, an average player who is super fed in a game (fed = having higher level/gear cuz he got many many kills with very little deaths), will easily kill a very good player who is starved (starved = having soo many deaths, thus lagging behind in levels/gear).

 

So if a human player (a HUMAN PLAYER !!) cannot easily beat a bit lesser skilled player most of the time, when at severe disadvantage of gear/level, how can you expect an AI to be of any threat when he is going to die in 2 seconds ?!?!