Molecular Prime In Relation To Other Abilities

[A5PECT]

I did up to wave 15 with 2 frosts on xini because our ash left at 4.To say the least, pressing 4 pretty much the only efficient wave to clear a room like this.

Right, and what does it say about the overall design of the game when only a single ability out of all 52 available ones is effective at clearing end game content?

Edited August 2, 2013 by A5PECT

[rksk16it]

Okay...but blocking them from contributing what? As you said, everyone gets a fair cut of the xp, and assuming your team members are all courteous, the drops. 

I don't mean to trample on your opinion or anything, but what exactly does molecular prime stop other teammates from contributing...

 

It does give them a fair cut of xp/loot/drops etc, but it may not give them their fair cut of... *gasp*.. FUN. Some (like me) define fun as maximizing output with minimum input, so yea a Nova doing all the work while I stand still and read forums is fun for me. A Nova being stupid and dying repeatedly, only to make me blow my abilities to revive her safely is NOT fun for me. But for some.. fun is watching their enemy blown into pieces from *THEIR* weapon/ability.

 

It depends on the player though, some players don't mind NOva taking all the kills, less work for them and they get XP.

 

And at times, Nova is just the only one who can take on waves.

 

I did up to wave 15 with 2 frosts on xini because our ash left at 4.To say the least, pressing 4 pretty much the only efficient wave to clear a room like this.

 

Nope, she isnt the only one. And she is not the best. Oh I sooo love to argue with Nova fanboys who says Nova is the best dps in game in defense missions, did it in two other threads, now looking forward to do it here :D

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/86471-let-nova-live/page-5#entry980851

 

There are situations in defense missions, which 99.5% of player population never get to see, where Nova cant do **** compared to a certain other warframe in terms of dmg output :)

[Buzkyl]

Right, and what does it say about the overall design of the game when only a single ability out of all 52 available ones is effective at clearing end game content?

 

 

Xini? Endgame?

No, just no.

 

Still doesn't take way from the point.Is MP balance? ofcourse not. And it's best to compare MP to other damage ult, to which for the most part, it does outclass for the majority of the game

 

 

 

 

As to the above, me? Nova fanboy? Please, i love playing with nova simple because she's efficient at farming which is mainly what this games comes to. And

 

i have seen your post about venom. While I do agree, but at the same time, yes it is possible for venom to crash a pc but you're going to have to get that far into a defense wherer Nova become useless (which will be pretty dam far) while bringing a build to maximise venom to prove how subpar Nova is to Saryn? Not to mention how broken armor and hp becomes there that everything else becomes useless.

 

That's a small percentage of the game, and what about the rest? Is Nova OP? No, Molecular Prime is.

Edited August 2, 2013 by cozzi21

[rksk16it]

Right, and what does it say about the overall design of the game when only a single ability out of all 52 available ones is effective at clearing end game content?

 

51

[rksk16it]

As to the above, me? Nova fanboy? Please, i love playing with nova simple because she's efficient at farming which is mainly what this games comes to. And

 

I did not intend the word "fanboys" to specifically point towards you, though I agree it appears that way and I apologise for it. But, my reason to call Nova lovers "fanboys" because most of them who I find in game and in forums look no furthur than "2 buttons to press to clear the wave". I play mainly Frost and Saryn, and building Vauban atm (stupid helmet alert took eternity to occur).

 

There are many instances where I join the lobby with some randoms for a defense, wanting to play Saryn, but as a responsible team player, I do notify them that I have Frost as well. And what happens... 99.99% of time they will say "we need a nova" and one or two will switch to Nova and I have to play Frost. And I am pretty sure when I get my Vauban decked up, as soon as I will say "Saryn, Frost or Vauban", I am never getting to play Saryn, unless of course playing with friends and clanmates.

 

Saryn is almost equally good at farming (read: killing), and that too without spamming Miasma and annoying the **** out of everyone, though most do just that. The only difference with Nova is it takes like 2-3 seconds of ramp up time for Venom to spread. When it takes more than that, its almost everytime because of stupid teammates with Hek/Ogris/Snipetron who blow up my venom carrier before I get to spread it. And lastly, another good, or shall I say GREAT thing about Venom is, it gives other players something to shoot at. I have often found that support/utility players who know a thing or two about the game often find it much more enjoyable to shoot those spores than to stand idle and watch a frantic Nova pressing "4" every chance she gets.

[11.11.11]

It does give them a fair cut of xp/loot/drops etc, but it may not give them their fair cut of... *gasp*.. FUN. Some (like me) define fun as maximizing output with minimum input, so yea a Nova doing all the work while I stand still and read forums is fun for me. A Nova being stupid and dying repeatedly, only to make me blow my abilities to revive her safely is NOT fun for me. But for some.. fun is watching their enemy blown into pieces from *THEIR* weapon/ability.

 

You're right of course. People mostly play for the enjoyment. And I can understand why having someone spam their ult and kill everything on screen isn't fun. I sure don't find it fun, even as a dedicated Nova player. I hate it when someone else plays as my favorite frame and spams M.P. before I have a chance to even have a go at the enemies, it's frustrating as hell, and it feels like they're tarnishing my reputation somewhat. 

 

 

 

However I still don't feel that it's cause to Nerf nova, or any of the other ultimate's. They're powerful tools, in many ways necessary for higher tier missions of the game currently. Just because some inconsiderate &#! holes arn't taking the time to consider the enjoyment of others, dosn't mean they're bad or over powered tools.

 

Perhaps a good long term solution would to be see some kind of increase in the power cost of ultimate's - a decrease in the energy regeneration provided by Energy siphon and a lowering of the energy sphere drop rate. Make Energy a rare commodity (as I have always felt it really should be). Make powers something that can't be spammed, and has to be used in last ditch or tactical applications only. Perhaps even reward players with an energy bonus for assisting in kills, opening doors with team-mates and other beneficial team-minded behavior. What could be even better, would be if the game dynamically adjusted to players power use. What if you received an energy bonus for timing your powers and chaining them with others? What if the longer you went for in a match without using a power, the more the game would reward you with a slight regen in energy. _{It even makes sense from a prescript standpoint. Energy seems a likely power source for our frames themselves, with the excess being channeled off to provide powers, so it's not unreasonable to think our suits are generating it in some form.}

 

 

Of course some consideration would have to be made as to how this would effect player customization of their energy pools. I'm not really suggesting flow, streamline and the like be nerfed per say, but they may have to be adjusted slightly to prevent people circumventing the system with massive energy pools. Maybe energy leaks, or decays if used to often? If multiple powers are spammed in a couple of minutes, they cost increasing amounts to use? 

Edited August 2, 2013 by 11.11.11

[rksk16it]

However I still don't feel that it's cause to Nerf nova, or any of the other ultimate's. They're powerful tools, in many ways necessary for higher tier missions of the game currently. Just because some inconsiderate &#! holes arn't taking the time to consider the enjoyment of others, dosn't mean they're bad or over powered tools.

 

Agreed completely. But still the problem remains, and its unfair to deny a large fraction of players their "fun" just because they are NOT playing Nova.

 

Perhaps a good long term solution would to be see some kind of increase in the power cost of ultimate's - a decrease in the energy regeneration provided by Energy siphon and a lowering of the energy sphere drop rate. Make Energy a rare commodity (as I have always felt it really should be). Make powers something that can't be spammed, and has to be used in last ditch or tactical applications only. Perhaps even reward players with an energy bonus for assisting in kills, opening doors with team-mates and other beneficial team-minded behavior. What could be even better, would be if the game dynamically adjusted to players power use. What if you received an energy bonus for timing your powers and chaining them with others? What if the longer you went for in a match without using a power, the more the game would reward you with a slight regen in energy. _{It even makes sense from a prescript standpoint. Energy seems a likely power source for our frames themselves, with the excess being channeled off to provide powers, so it's not unreasonable to think our suits are generating it in some form.}

 

 

Of course some consideration would have to be made as to how this would effect player customization of their energy pools. I'm not really suggesting flow, streamline and the like be nerfed per say, but they may have to be adjusted slightly to prevent people circumventing the system with massive energy pools. Maybe energy leaks, or decays if used to often? If multiple powers are spammed in a couple of minutes, they cost increasing amounts to use? 

 

Or abilities can have a cooldown :)

[11.11.11]

Agreed completely. But still the problem remains, and its unfair to deny a large fraction of players their "fun" just because they are NOT playing Nova.

 

Or abilities can have a cooldown :)

 

~ They're not being denied fun by not playing Nova. They're being denied fun by self-centered team-mates. Don't shift the blame onto the frame. If you want to ensure you have fun, play with decent people. That'll always be true in multiplayer experiences, no matter how much effort the developer goes to try and force co-operation.

 

~ *sigh* Or yes, we can go the lazy, inflexible, uninteresting route too I guess. 

[Enomilli]

If Nova Primes all of the enemies then all of your weapons get EXP vs you getting EXP for only one weapon. It's better this way.

[rksk16it]

~ They're not being denied fun by not playing Nova. They're being denied fun by self-centered team-mates. Don't shift the blame onto the frame. If you want to ensure you have fun, play with decent people. That'll always be true in multiplayer experiences, no matter how much effort the developer goes to try and force co-operation.

 

I am not blaming Nova or any frame. I am blaming the situation as a whole. A super self-centered Excalibur can do very little to "destroy" the fun, a Nova can do a lot. I am not talking about difference between playing with decent people vs playing with selfish people. I am talking about the difference between a selfish Nova vs selfish other frames. No matter who you choose to blame, the fact remains most players dont enjoy having that kind of Nova in their team. Its not only about kills, its also about being able to shoot at the enemies.

 

For example, I will point out the difference I observed with Venom. If I heavily Venom a large group, lots of spores are sticking to every target, and they are about to die within 2-3 seconds max. Still, other players get to see them, they get to shoot at them. They see the health of their targets dropping extremely fast. Even though they are aware that venom is contributing to that health drop more than their weapon, they still find it FAR FAR less annoying than ... say they killed a charger which started a chain explosion and no more enemies ever appeared out of spawn point.

 

~ *sigh* Or yes, we can go the lazy, inflexible, uninteresting route too I guess. 

 

Lazy ,inflexible, uninteresting.. AND economically cheaper to implement.. :D

 

 

If Nova Primes all of the enemies then all of your weapons get EXP vs you getting EXP for only one weapon. It's better this way.

 

Those players who get annoyed by Nova dont give a **** about EXP. They want their bullets to rip the flesh of their enemies and dismember them.

[11.11.11]

I am talking about the difference between a selfish Nova vs selfish other frames. No matter who you choose to blame, the fact remains most players dont enjoy having that kind of Nova in their team. Its not only about kills, its also about being able to shoot at the enemies.

 

For example, I will point out the difference I observed with Venom. If I heavily Venom a large group, lots of spores are sticking to every target, and they are about to die within 2-3 seconds max. Still, other players get to see them, they get to shoot at them. They see the health of their targets dropping extremely fast. Even though they are aware that venom is contributing to that health drop more than their weapon, they still find it FAR FAR less annoying than ... say they killed a charger which started a chain explosion and no more enemies ever appeared out of spawn point.

 

 

Lazy ,inflexible, uninteresting.. AND economically cheaper to implement.. :D

 

 

Fair points all of them, and I don't strictly disagree.

 

Nova is powerful, near omnipotent when it comes to taking down large groups of enemies. *Shrugs* I still don't feel that people have much cause to complain that M.P in particular isn't enjoyable for them. In truth the ability is never going to appeal to everyone. Could it do with some tweaking to make it more team-friendly, sure. But I'd be wary of neutering it's damage. Which, as it's not exponential, or scaled to anything, is fairly limited in a long-term perspective anyway.

 

At the end of the day I guess I just feel that, in response to this:

the fact remains most players dont enjoy having that kind of Nova in their team. Its not only about kills, its also about being able to shoot at the enemies.

People just shouldn't play with those sort of Nova's. I don't tend to play with rushers because I don't like their playstyle, and I'm not going to intentionally make the game 'un-fun' for myself. I don't like people who spam Molecular Prime either, and if someone's doing it I'll ask them to stop, and failing that, leave. I don't come away feeling that the power needs balancing or isn't team-friendly. Just that L33tTenno404 was a bit of a jerk. 

 

But I can still totally see your point of view. 

[rksk16it]

 But I'd be wary of neutering it's damage.

 

Yeap, doing that kind of change is harmful.

 

One other semi-solution I can see is introduction of more planets with defense missions which start at a level of enemies which dont insta die with those explosions but remain with like 10-15% hp on first wave.

[11.11.11]

Yeap, doing that kind of change is harmful.

 

One other semi-solution I can see is introduction of more planets with defense missions which start at a level of enemies which dont insta die with those explosions but remain with like 10-15% hp on first wave.

 

Bleugh. Not more needless armor / health buffing please. DE needs to move away from that superficial nonsense and make their enemies actually challenging. 

[rksk16it]

Bleugh. Not more needless armor / health buffing please. DE needs to move away from that superficial nonsense and make their enemies actually challenging. 

 

To have mobs NOT to die from some ability, you can only do two things :-

1. Decrease offense (aka nerf ability)

2. Increase defense (increase target armor/health)

 

So basically.. you dont want to nerf Nova's dmg, and dont want extra armor/health on mobs... well then I dont know how to prevent enemies from dying instantly to Nova (or for that matter any frame with 1 hit room clear ability like Saryn and Rhino).

Edited August 2, 2013 by rksk16it

[Love2Camp]

What about when def mission ends, and Nova has four times the kills of the others, but nowhere near the same damage done?

Some snowglobe gets most damage, for just idling on the pod. I strongly believe the damage from M Prime isn't counted for the end results.

 

As for the rest.. I didn't know you got xp on all stuff when another nova primes stuff, so that's awesome. Now I can slack when not a Nova and M prime EVERYTHING as a Nova, and not feel bad/annoyed at all \o/

[RoboDoge]

Who cares for kills and damage in this game?

[11.11.11]

To have mobs NOT to die from some ability, you can only do two things :-

1. Decrease offense (aka nerf ability)

2. Increase defense (increase target armor/health)

 

So basically.. you dont want to nerf Nova's dmg, and dont want extra armor/health on mobs... well then I dont know how to prevent enemies from dying instantly to Nova (or for that matter any frame with 1 hit room clear ability like Saryn and Rhino).

 

I don't care if the enemies do insta-die from Nova or any other ability. At least not on the lower planets. That's how it should be. I like running around Tethy's one-shotting things with my Latron prime. It's fun. 

 

When we get to talking about stuff like T3 mobile defenses, I want enemies with more intelligent - trickier to combat coding. Not just bigger health pools so ultimate's do less damage.

[101blubb]

I don't know how a spell with 25m range that makes its targets take 2x dmg, move at 50% speed and detonate violently made its way into the game in its current form. It is in no way balanced in comparison to other damaging ubers - that much should be painfully obvious.

[rksk16it]

What about when def mission ends, and Nova has four times the kills of the others, but nowhere near the same damage done?

Some snowglobe gets most damage, for just idling on the pod. I strongly believe the damage from M Prime isn't counted for the end results.

 

As for the rest.. I didn't know you got xp on all stuff when another nova primes stuff, so that's awesome. Now I can slack when not a Nova and M prime EVERYTHING as a Nova, and not feel bad/annoyed at all \o/

 

Why are you focussed too much on end game chart. Many players are not concerned with that either. THEY WANT SOMETHING TO SHOOT AT. They want to see blood splattered as they fire bullets into enemies, they want to try their new weapon/mods. Seriously, think from THAT perspective, and then you understand the problem. Its not the kill count, its not the score chart, its not the xp, its the fact that they never get to shoot at enemies !!!

 

I said about Venom as an example above. I get a LOT MORE kills than other players in team if they dont have some ult-trigger-happy-Nova among them, and they dont seem to mind it even a least bit. They will get annoyed if I run into spawn point and do Miasma.. and do it again.. and again...

[rksk16it]

I don't care if the enemies do insta-die from Nova or any other ability. At least not on the lower planets. That's how it should be. I like running around Tethy's one-shotting things with my Latron prime. It's fun. 

 

When we get to talking about stuff like T3 mobile defenses, I want enemies with more intelligent - trickier to combat coding. Not just bigger health pools so ultimate's do less damage.

 

Eh.. intelligence wont help if they all die in a split second...

[DeathByDribbling]

I don't think you can blame any player for using the abilities they were given.  If the aim of the game is to stop the enemy from destroying the pod then having an ability that one shots the entire wave is doing that.  The fault is really with the design of the game where so many frames get press 4 to kill everything ults.  Yes I know it doesn't work at lvl 120 or whatever, but 99% of the game isn't played at lvl 120.

 

They should redesign all the abilities and make them require actual skill and team work.

Edited August 2, 2013 by DeathByDribbling

[rksk16it]

I don't think you can blame any player for using the abilities they were given.  If the aim of the game is to stop the enemy from destroying the pod then having an ability that one shots the entire wave is doing that.  The fault is really with the design of the game where so many frames get press 4 to kill everything ults.  Yes I know it doesn't work at lvl 120 or whatever, but 99% of the game isn't played at lvl 120.

 

They should redesign all the abilities and make them require actual skill and team work.

 

Exactly what I was trying to say... abilities insta-gibbing entire room will REQUIRE absurd health/armor scaling from mobs. No amount of artificial intelligence gonna solve it. Either that.. or nerf the abilities.

[BloodRiot]

The game still requires some tradeoffs on the powers. Nova right now seems to have it all going for it.

 

Nova's MP right now has high range with no cap on number of targets it affects, plants a increase damage taken debuff, plants a slow debuff, deals high ammount of damage when the chain reactions occur which is almost always thanks to an again high radius for the explosions and the effect last for a good 1 minute while it leaves Nova free to do other stuff. I'm glad they didn't make her invicible too for the duration or it woudl totally be OP /sarcasm :p

 

Excalibur's Radial Javelin has a target limit and despite having good damage on it's own... they don't chain react for greater effect with the only exception being Mag using Bullet attractor on a mob, but in that case it's doing single taarget overkill damage instead of multiple targets.

 

Loki's Disarm is very useful but it's the only effect it's got... technically a debuff.

 

Ash has very good damage and invincibility, but a target limit and long duration that prevents Ash from doing other things.

 

Nyx requires extra factors to play in her favor such as both the enemies being actively attacking her AND staying within range of the damaging return blast. She's also preventedfrom doing other things for the duration.

 

I could name others but you get the idea. The ones above I don't consider underpowered.... It's Nova that flies too high for them. She's in a league of her own.

 

I trully like the idea behind the chain reactions and in my opinion that should not change. But if we factor the current damage potential it has, the debuffs it applies, the range and duration.... it's just too much goodness there for it to be balanced.

Edited August 2, 2013 by BloodRiot

[Karma_Ghost]

Molecular prime should credit kills to the person who detonates it. This has been discussed elsewhere.

 

The person who triggers it isn't killing anything but that one enemy. 

 

Why are you focussed too much on end game chart. Many players are not concerned with that either. THEY WANT SOMETHING TO SHOOT AT. They want to see blood splattered as they fire bullets into enemies, they want to try their new weapon/mods. Seriously, think from THAT perspective, and then you understand the problem. Its not the kill count, its not the score chart, its not the xp, its the fact that they never get to shoot at enemies !!!

 

In mobile defense and endless defense everyone benefits from people ult spamming. Faster kills mean more xp and loot. If efficiency bothers you so much, just play solo or in zones that aren't being farmed. Your perceived problem has a very simple solution.

[11.11.11]

The person who triggers it isn't killing anything but that one enemy. 

 

They're setting off the chain reaction.

 

When someone presses the detonator on a bomb we tend not to say "They didn't kill those people. The bomb killed those people." I don't think it's too unreasonable to make a similar claim here. 

 

Unless you're contesting that the person who triggers the MP shouldn't get the kills for some reason. In which case, I'd ask why.