Add Turbofire-Option

[DiabolusUrsus]

What was the last game with a semi-auto weapon that didn't also fire by just holding down the button?

Skyrim. Blacklight: Retribution, which is a decent shooter. Primal Carnage.

You people need to stop saying "well, games a, b, c, d, e, f, etc. have semi-auto guns that are basically just slow automatics." Warframe is not game a, b, c, d, e, f, or even g.

Like people said earlier, this feature is unnecessary, and  would largely disrupt the already fragile pseudo-balance for various weapons already in the game. Click your mouse or just bind fire to the wheel.

[Pave]

What is this "balance" you speak of?..

...

 

No seriously, you keep dropping this word "balance" as an argument while having nothing to back you up. or even not able to show anything valid.

Not to mention that once again you're suggesting to use either make-shift-solution or 3rd-party-software to brake this "balance", thus contradicting your own arguments against this feature.

 

Please, read through the previous posts once again to already see that "balance"-argument has been already invalidated not by various "obvious" points, but by the developers themselves (hint: It's regarding to Rate-of-Fire, which due being bound to game-code itself cannot be broken by auto-clicker software, workarounds, or ideally the possible turbofire-function(unless of course, the coding is faulty and allows such exploit to happen, that is).

 

Also, to whom you keep siding for by advocating / argumenting for balance? Never so far this has been mentioned everytime this topic has been brought up. All we keep hearing is "balance, because of the balance!". The question is: To whom, or what?

 

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This is kinda off-topical, but it simply would be far more easier to list games with lack of "turbofire-function" for specific games. But then again, the lack-of and inclusion-of this function is highly dependable on the game itself too; Warframe is one example where there's no reason to not have this option, aside artificial / made-up trivial ones that are being dropped here as arguments...

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Honestly, one would think there wouldn't be a need for yet another side-kick of Captain Obvious when it comes to argumenting 101s. But apparently these forums also keep proving the opposite everytime there's a glimmer of hope for an actual argument. Sheesh, how disapointing...

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What is this "balance" you speak of?..

...

 

No seriously, you keep dropping this word "balance" as an argument while having nothing to back you up. or even not able to show anything valid.

Not to mention that once again you're suggesting to use either make-shift-solution or 3rd-party-software to brake this "balance", thus contradicting your own arguments against this feature.

Err... quotes where people say "but balance, and use auto clickers" at the same time.

 

Please, read through the previous posts once again to already see that "balance"-argument has been already invalidated not by various "obvious" points, but by the developers themselves (hint: It's regarding to Rate-of-Fire, which due being bound to game-code itself cannot be broken by auto-clicker software, workarounds, or ideally the possible turbofire-function(unless of course, the coding is faulty and allows such exploit to happen, that is).

...or you could bother to try and explain your point again. The rate of fire being affect by FPS is a bug, not a feature.

 

Also, to whom you keep siding for by advocating / argumenting for balance? Never so far this has been mentioned everytime this topic has been brought up. All we keep hearing is "balance, because of the balance!". The question is: To whom, or what?

When was balance brought up? It's more for diversity than balance. With every gun being full auto, they all play the same, and therefore are boring.

 

-----------------------

Honestly, one would think there wouldn't be a need for yet another side-kick of Captain Obvious when it comes to argumenting 101s. But apparently these forums also keep proving the opposite everytime there's a glimmer of hope for an actual argument. Sheesh, how disapointing...

How bout some real arguments instead of pulling stuff outta thing air? How bout you give REAL reasons as to why it should be added. It's not up to others to debunk you, it's up to you prove this is a good idea.

Edit: read through the topic again, not a mention of balance at all, simply how the weapons work and feel. So, got arugments for why it should be added?

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[A5PECT]

-snip-

That is, of course, if this if the feeling many keep referencing to, especially with words "feel", "immersion" and so on.

Because if you're going for immersion, a game must go to the absolute extremes of trying to emulate real life. There's no such thing as a middle ground.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Because if you're going for immersion, a game must go to the absolute extremes of trying to emulate real life. There's no such thing as a middle ground.

Psh, I hardly think different firing types in a game is "extreme" in the aspect of imitating real life. (but yes, I agree with you, just disagree that this is "extreme", fairly basic really.), it's kinda basic, like, how do guns work? Well, some are full auto, some are semi auto, and some are burst. Never has the world had a semi auto that can fire as long as the trigger is held down. Why? Because we have a term for that, it's called FULL AUTO.

 

(edit, again, agreeing with you, having semi autos, full autos, and bursts are all part of immersion, just not an extreme part of it, a fairly basic and essential part. You can't have a semi auto gun firing all of it's rounds as long as the trigger is held down.)

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[A5PECT]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/satire

Edited August 2, 2013 by A5PECT

[KvotheTheArcane1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

Ah I see you were being sarcastic (I guess), but here's the problem with expecting people to understand that: Sarcasm is ALL in tone and body language, which is pretty hard to convey via the internet.

[Pave]

Ah yes, the argument of "video-games aren't escapism" but instead "reality simulators"...go on, I shall read more if you just keep writing more to be read.

[A5PECT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Ah yes, the argument of "video-games aren't escapism" but instead "reality simulators"...go on, I shall read more if you just keep writing more to be read.

Immersion =/= reality simulator. It'd be like in skyrim, unmodded, you had space marines dropping in for no reason. Now, why is your idea a good idea, and not terrible?

A5PECT, on 02 Aug 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

woah, that explanation. It's... so indepth. And deep. And meaningful.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[XCodes]

Reasons to have a feature built into the game engine for autofire:

1) You can already do it by being super-fiddly about it, like binding fire to your mouse wheel. It's stupidly inconvenient, but it works.

2) You can already do it by downloading 3rd-party software. Those are NEVER bad for your system and NEVER compromise game security, do they?

3) You can already do it by having a gaming mouse with drivers that support the feature. They're not necessarily all that expensive, either.

 

4) There are very real concerns in the computer industry when it comes to repetitive strain injuries, one of the causes of which is rapid, repetitive mouse clicks.

"Reasons" not to have autofire in a game that are completely invalid:

1) It does not ruin immersion.  If you want to shoot a gun semi-auto, then you can turn it off or just click the mouse once.

2) It does not cause balance issues.  Other than the Akbolto, nothing really benefits from autofire (Latron Prime and the Snipers have enough kick that you want to stop firing and re-aim after each bullet), and the Akbolto, while good, is really not a top-tier weapon at present.

3) It is not a feature that will be used only by "lazy" people. First off, an Akbolto can fire 17 times per second with mods.  It's actually kinda hard to click a mouse button 17 times a second. Secondly, re-read my point about repetitive strain injuries.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Reasons to have a feature built into the game engine for autofire:

1) You can already do it by being super-fiddly about it, like binding fire to your mouse wheel. It's stupidly inconvenient, but it works.

didn't realize rebinds were "super fiddly"

2) You can already do it by downloading 3rd-party software. Those are NEVER bad for your system and NEVER compromise game security, do they?

To each their own, if they want to hit max fire rate without using legitimate "skill" then so be it.

3) You can already do it by having a gaming mouse with drivers that support the feature. They're not necessarily all that expensive, either.

 

4) There are very real concerns in the computer industry when it comes to repetitive strain injuries, one of the causes of which is rapid, repetitive mouse clicks.

The only real point here.

"Reasons" not to have autofire in a game that are completely invalid:

1) It does not ruin immersion.  If you want to shoot a gun semi-auto, then you can turn it off or just click the mouse once.

2) It does not cause balance issues.  Other than the Akbolto, nothing really benefits from autofire (Latron Prime and the Snipers have enough kick that you want to stop firing and re-aim after each bullet), and the Akbolto, while good, is really not a top-tier weapon at present.

It kinda does. All semi autos gain a massive fire rate buff if you can't hit the max fire cap normally, this means bolto, akbolto, lato (+ prime/vandal), aklato, vasto, latron (+ prime, even if it's accuracy suffers, at semi close range to mid range it's not that hard to control with some practice), and burst weapons (minimizing the down time between bursts) + they're fairly accurate, as scrolling the mouse wheel is MUCH easier than clicking rapidly.

3) It is not a feature that will be used only by "lazy" people. First off, an Akbolto can fire 17 times per second with mods.  It's actually kinda hard to click a mouse button 17 times a second. Secondly, re-read my point about repetitive strain injuries.

I think the cap is more for the ability to fire as fast as possible without really hitting it, just something to help increase how fast the guns can possibly fire.

As for you point about repetitive strain, a solution would be to when the option is enabled, simply have it fire at roughly half max speed. That way those who want it can use it, but it still rewards "skill" for being able to click rapidly (or figure out how to rebind keys)

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[PsychedelicSnake]

[JollierThanThou]

Psh, I hardly think different firing types in a game is "extreme" in the aspect of imitating real life. (but yes, I agree with you, just disagree that this is "extreme", fairly basic really.), it's kinda basic, like, how do guns work? Well, some are full auto, some are semi auto, and some are burst. Never has the world had a semi auto that can fire as long as the trigger is held down. Why? Because we have a term for that, it's called FULL AUTO.

 

(edit, again, agreeing with you, having semi autos, full autos, and bursts are all part of immersion, just not an extreme part of it, a fairly basic and essential part. You can't have a semi auto gun firing all of it's rounds as long as the trigger is held down.)

We have full-auto throwing knives, so I dare say gunplay/input immersion isn't a priority in this game.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

We have full-auto throwing knives, so I dare say gunplay/input immersion isn't a priority in this game.

eh, they should be changed imo, doesn't make sense for the to be full auto really...

[XCodes]

As for you point about repetitive strain, a solution would be to when the option is enabled, simply have it fire at roughly half max speed. That way those who want it can use it, but it still rewards "skill" for being able to click rapidly (or figure out how to rebind keys)

It's not fiddly to rebind keys, it's fiddly to use the mousewheel to shoot.  Furthermore, the ability to click a mouse button really fast isn't skill, and it's not even "skill." It's a side effect of consuming too many energy drinks or spending way too much @(*()$ time playing shooters on your computer.

 

Also, OH NOEZ, BAD GUNS ARE BETTER BUT STILL BAD, IMBA IMBA IMBA!!! Go home, kid, you're drunk.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

It's not fiddly to rebind keys, it's fiddly to use the mousewheel to shoot.  Furthermore, the ability to click a mouse button really fast isn't skill, and it's not even "skill." It's a side effect of consuming too many energy drinks or spending way too much @(*()$ time playing shooters on your computer.

 

Also, OH NOEZ, BAD GUNS ARE BETTER BUT STILL BAD, IMBA IMBA IMBA!!! Go home, kid, you're drunk.

Err.. where did I say it was imba? Where did I say they're bad? Akboltos were one of the best guns before the kunai. And yes, being able to click fast is a "skill", might not be desirable, but it's a skill, just like being able to play shooters well, being good at math, or driving (again, might not be useful, but a skill is determined by usefulness). And how is using the mousewheel fiddly? Fairly easy to just keep scrolling it when you want to fire (down being easier than up imo)

 

Also, what are you so mad about? The fact you have to use guns as intended, or use a macro, or god forbid, rebind some keys? Sheesh, grow up. (also, what's with the insults? Or is that what you have to resort to? If so GG go home you lose)

Also:

 

skill  

Noun

1. The ability to do something well; expertise. (In this, being able to click a mouse fast without the aid of energy drinks)

 

 

as for "IMBA", I dunno, would being able to fire a bolto (25 damage, ignores armor), acrid (same as bolto, only with a stacking dot too), as fast as a viper (or in the case of akbolto faster) be IMBA? Probably, but that's just another point against it, not that it really matters. As for the others (latos mostly) being IMBA, right now? No, but when/if armor gets fixed, maybe.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[XCodes]

^ This is exactly why you don't put your "arguments" (quoted because they are, by definition, not arguments) inside other people's quote bubbles.

"All semi-autos gain a massive fire rate buff if you can't hit the max fire rate cap normally."
1) If you have to lord your ability to click a mouse button 17 times a second over other people as your crowning achievement of skill, and feel like you should automatically perform better in video games because of this skill, then you are a miserable failure at life. I can't for the life of me think of something quite so petty as complaining that clicking a mouse button 17 times a second is a skill that should be treasured and respected to the point where you get to use the Akbolto as intended, but nobody else does.  Again, not that it even matters. As I have said, there are already MANY ways to shoot full-auto.

2) Oh, right, this is how the Akbolto is SUPPOSED to work.  If the game were to be balanced at all, it's balanced around the idea that the Akbolto can fire 17 times per second.  Allowing full auto doesn't make the Akbolto better, it simply lets everyone use the Akbolto to it's full potential without having to worry about RSI.  On the same note, allowing full-auto doesn't make the Vasto better, because the Vasto's fire rate is pretty damn slow compared to the Akbolto.

3) If you use full-auto with snipers, Latron, Latron Prime, Lex, or Seer, then you are doing it wrong. These guns rely on getting headshots for their DPS and have enough kick that if you auto-fire them, you're going to miss the required headshots.  Not that it matters much, anyway, becuase these are all extremely slow-firing guns.

4) If you can't stand the fact that the Bolto, Lato, or Aklato are getting a buff, then don't ever talk about balance in this game again.  These guns suck, buffing them is not a bad idea at all, not that this is even a buff for them.  Again, these guns don't actually shoot all that fast.

5) Every other shooter, and I do mean EVERY other shooter, has you click the mouse button to shoot the gun.  Suddenly, for warframe, I have to scroll the mouse wheel to shoot the gun?  That's bullS#&$, it's not intuitive, and it's not a natural movement for firing a gun.  There's a Extra Credits episode that explains that last bit if you can't comprehend why it's bad.

6) Why should people who want to protect themselves from injury have to play with a handicap? Again, having the fire rate be halved for people shooting at full auto is bullS#&$ because you can already set it up VERY easily so that you shoot the gun at full-auto at the normal fire rate. It's also bullS#&$ because you're basically saying that people who want to protect themselves from injury should be handicapped, and are second-class Warframe players.  That last bit could actually turn into a liability issue if a court finds that the full-auto option is a punishment for players trying to play the game safely, and DE would be exposed to liabilities.

All this seems to stem from the idea that clicking a mouse button 17 times a second is a skill of such magnitude and value that you deserve special treatment in the game.  Truth is, I can use rudimentary computer knowledge to emulate THOUSANDS of mouse clicks a second and out-perform your "skill" on a magnitude that isn't even funny.  Therefore, you are a douchenozzle.  It's not an insult, it's a logical conclusion of my argument.

[LasersGoPewPew]

what about making it auto fire after the recoil is recovered similar to tf2s full auto?...... would make using semi auto weapons that aren't a one shot one kill semi auto much easier to use lol

[Pave]

This makes one wonder though: Why not simply remove the possibility to even increase the firerate of semi-automatic-guns then? Or simply reduce the RoF of all of them to 1/second?

Kinda pointless make the firerate any higher than that because in most of the conditions no one is even able to click twice within a second when you think of this further. And then there's the info which tells that all the RoF is adjusted to turbofire within game-code itself...

[XCodes]

This makes one wonder though: Why not simply remove the possibility to even increase the firerate of semi-automatic-guns then? Or simply reduce the RoF of all of them to 1/second?

Kinda pointless make the firerate any higher than that because in most of the conditions no one is even able to click twice within a second when you think of this further. And then there's the info which tells that all the RoF is adjusted to turbofire within game-code itself...

Because this messes with game balance.  If you could suddenly shoot the Latron Prime or Akbolto only once per second, then it becomes a @(*()$ terrible gun.

[JollierThanThou]

I'm not convinced the Akbolto was balanced around a fire rate of 17:

 

Despair: 145 DPS

Hikou: 133 DPS

Akbolto actual, due to semi-auto bug (6.8): 107 DPS

Akbolto theoretical (17): 172 DPS

[KvotheTheArcane1]

^ This is exactly why you don't put your "arguments" (quoted because they are, by definition, not arguments) inside other people's quote bubbles.

"All semi-autos gain a massive fire rate buff if you can't hit the max fire rate cap normally."

1) If you have to lord your ability to click a mouse button 17 times a second over other people as your crowning achievement of skill,

Where are you getting this S#&$ from? Where did I say "I R GOD FOR MOUSE CLICKING"? Seriously, stop putting words in my mouth.

 

and feel like you should automatically perform better in video games because of this skill, then you are a miserable failure at life.

See above. (also, stop insulting everyone, it looks childish, lets try something crazy. You ready? Let's be civil... WOAH, crazy right? I didn't insult you, I expect you to not insult me. Crazy right? Yeah, lets see if you can handle it starting.... now.)

 

I can't for the life of me think of something quite so petty as complaining that clicking a mouse button 17 times a second is a skill that should be treasured

Again, where are you pulling this from? It's a skill. Nothing more. I even said, "might not be desirable", as in it might not be a useful skill to have.

 

and respected to the point where you get to use the Akbolto as intended, but nobody else does. Again, not that it even matters. As I have said, there are already MANY ways to shoot full-auto.

sure. If someone wants to rebind fire to mouse wheel (how fiddly, right? takes like, 5 seconds), or download a macro program or something. Not a problem, that's their choice.

 

2) Oh, right, this is how the Akbolto is SUPPOSED to work.  If the game were to be balanced at all, it's balanced around the idea that the Akbolto can fire 17 times per second.  Allowing full auto doesn't make the Akbolto better, it simply lets everyone use the Akbolto to it's full potential without having to worry about RSI.  On the same note, allowing full-auto doesn't make the Vasto better, because the Vasto's fire rate is pretty damn slow compared to the Akbolto.

3) If you use full-auto with snipers, Latron, Latron Prime, Lex, or Seer, then you are doing it wrong. These guns rely on getting headshots for their DPS and have enough kick that if you auto-fire them, you're going to miss the required headshots.  Not that it matters much, anyway, becuase these are all extremely slow-firing guns.

well, duh that's the point of the guns, but this changes if you give all semi auto guns full auto. Why aim when you can just spray a bunch of high damage rounds in close range?

4) If you can't stand the fact that the Bolto, Lato, or Aklato are getting a buff, then don't ever talk about balance in this game again.  These guns suck, buffing them is not a bad idea at all, not that this is even a buff for them.  Again, these guns don't actually shoot all that fast.

They do not "suck", armor is simply a problem. On low armor enemies, the latos work fine but once enemies get decent armor they suck because the pistol AP mod sucks. And I never said buffs are bad. But, they'd be a direct upgrade to the full auto pistols (and some rifles). They would do MORE damage by ~7-11 points (depending on furis or vipers comparison), and have roughly the same, if not more fire rate, making vipers and furis worthless. How is that not unbalancing weapons? Please, think before you type about balance.

 

Why should the akboltos/aklatos be a direct upgrade to the braton? The braton is an assault rifle/submachine gun (kinda a mix, looks like a rifle, but plays more like a submachine gun imo), while the akboltos are 2 semi auto pistols, but with a macro/rebind, they fire at what, 17 rounds a second compared to the braton's 11.2? Makes sense.

5) Every other shooter, and I do mean EVERY other shooter, has you click the mouse button to shoot the gun.  Suddenly, for warframe, I have to scroll the mouse wheel to shoot the gun?  That's bullS#&$, it's not intuitive, and it's not a natural movement for firing a gun.  There's a Extra Credits episode that explains that last bit if you can't comprehend why it's bad.

You can do it for other games that have unlimited fire rate semi autos (i.e. BL2 jakobs guns for example). It's not JUST warframe, it's any game with unlimited/close to unlimited fire rate semi autos.

6) Why should people who want to protect themselves from injury have to play with a handicap? Again, having the fire rate be halved for people shooting at full auto is bullS#&$ because you can already set it up VERY easily so that you shoot the gun at full-auto at the normal fire rate. It's also bullS#&$ because you're basically saying that people who want to protect themselves from injury should be handicapped, and are second-class Warframe players.  That last bit could actually turn into a liability issue if a court finds that the full-auto option is a punishment for players trying to play the game safely, and DE would be exposed to liabilities.

Err.. I severely doubt this psuedo lawyer bullS#&$ about the courts and being able to sue. I never said "THEY MUST BE SECOND CLASS", It was a solution. If they want to rebind some keys (aka go through a "fiddly process" as you said), then great, good for them, but warframe really shouldn't support it imo, they want guns to be semi auto, then they should let people rebind keys to go around it, maybe use macros, but really, they should stick to their beliefs here (i.e. wanting some guns to be semi auto)

All this seems to stem from the idea that clicking a mouse button 17 times a second is a skill of such magnitude and value that you deserve special treatment in the game.  Truth is, I can use rudimentary computer knowledge to emulate THOUSANDS of mouse clicks a second and out-perform your "skill" on a magnitude that isn't even funny.  Therefore, you are a douchenozzle.  It's not an insult, it's a logical conclusion of my argument.

No, I never said "I r skilled, I press mouse fast", and yeah, it's easy to set up a program to do it. And yes, it's an insult. Grow up. Stop being childish. (btw, not THAT hard to make a program do it...), so, stop being a jerk, grow up, and stop insulting people, the only thing that come from it is a locked thread.

Let me sum up my points:

1. I never said make others be second class citizens. If DE can be sued because someone played a game, and hurt themselves by clicking too fast, then how many other games could be sued because of the same thing? How would this affect future games (i.e. remove of semi autos)

 

2. Stop insulting people (me mostly) I didn't insult you, I expect the same. The only thing that comes from insults is a locked thread, and stifling discussion because it becomes more or less the equivalent of monkeys flinging poo at each other.

 

3. Semi auto guns aren't expected to be fired at max fire speed, they're put so high so people can mash the fire button and get the highest fire rate they personally can manage (think of it as a minor, (if semi-useless) skill based gun.

 

Because this messes with game balance.  If you could suddenly shoot the Latron Prime or Akbolto only once per second, then it becomes a @(*()$ terrible gun.

I agree, limiting fire rate to be THAT low would make a ton of guns terrible.

 

 

I'm not convinced the Akbolto was balanced around a fire rate of 17:

 

Despair: 145 DPS

Hikou: 133 DPS

Akbolto actual, due to semi-auto bug (6.8): 107 DPS

Akbolto theoretical (17): 172 DPS

+1 (25 * 17 = 425 before reload, despair has a fire rate of only 3.3, so it only does 181.5 before reloads. A fire rate of 17 on an akbolto would be crazy.)

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[XCodes]

I'm not convinced the Akbolto was balanced around a fire rate of 17:

 

Despair: 145 DPS

Hikou: 133 DPS

Akbolto actual, due to semi-auto bug (6.8): 107 DPS

Akbolto theoretical (17): 172 DPS

Akbolto theoretical is after a +fire rate mod.  Have you applied that mod to both the Despair and Hikou?

Also, this is more of a problem with the fire rate bug, anyway.  Once the fire rate bug is fixed, the Akbolto's true fire rate can be adjusted to 6.8 or whatever.

Alternatively, we can just bypass the fire-rate bug by making all guns full-auto and saying "If you want to shoot it semi-auto, click instead of holding down the button."

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Akbolto theoretical is after a +fire rate mod.  Have you applied that mod to both the Despair and Hikou?

Also, this is more of a problem with the fire rate bug, anyway.  Once the fire rate bug is fixed, the Akbolto's true fire rate can be adjusted to 6.8 or whatever.

Alternatively, we can just bypass the fire-rate bug by making all guns full-auto and saying "If you want to shoot it semi-auto, click instead of holding down the button."

before reload, maxed speed trigger:

Despair 290.4

Hikou: 268

AKbolto: 425

AKlato: 334.08

 

I'm sure the others catch up a bit with reload, but I'm not entirely sure how to factor that in (pretty sure I'd do it wrong).

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1