Tenno Are Glass Cannons....

[Xylia]

......Seriously.

 

The more I think about how Challenge works in the game, the more I think about Offense vs Defense.

 

I know they want a fast-paced game, but to be honest, I don't like how squishy you end up being in anything Lv40+. You can't take more than a couple hits before you're seeing red around the edges of the screen, and then you're dead two seconds later unless you either kill what is attacking you, or somehow find someplace they can't hurt you.

 

Meanwhile, on the flipside, everybody is putting more focus on "MOAR DAMAGE!" on their weapons so that everything, including high-level enemies dies in a few hits (or in extreme scenarios, one-shot).

 

Honestly, my opinion, I'd like to see the game gradually change where Tenno have more survivability, but less damage so we can stop with the ridiculous health and armor scaling on enemies, and allow us to actually survive solo without being Rhino (even Iron Skin doesn't stay up very long, and no Iron Skin means you die in 4 seconds instead of 3 in higher-level stuff).

 

Not everybody is Frost or Rhino; everybody else dies in seconds.

 

But with the ridiculous stacking of mods (especially since they added new nightmare mods that stack with old mods), the damage output of the Tenno are getting simply ridiculous. To counter this to keep the game "challenging", DE simply jacks the armor and health up on everything because they must, otherwise people one-shot everything.

 

But, if Tenno did less damage, and if mobs did less damage, we could make the game harder in different ways without making you feel like a piece of wet paper that can just look at things and they die.

[Satwo]

but thats exactly where SMNC failed. they tried that over at Uber, and it didnt work well. as a matter of fact, the game is practicly (in scale by number of active players a week) dead.

it would be slow. people these days have short attention spans, so this is actually a good balance.

1. enemies scale in armor, health, shields, and damage with each passing level. ultimately you wont be able to do too much later on, but thats just part of the process.

2. tenno earn health and shields as they rank up, and theres mods to boost this. if you want to be less squishy, then add in some health or shields.

3. if youre having trouble staying alive, then how about being sneaky? there are ways of eliminating rooms of enemies without so much as a bullet being fired your way. if you step back and look at whats before you, you might stand a better chance at picking off your targets.

this is a game about space ninjas, it needs to stay fast paced. its essentially required when youre dealing with ninjas in general.

[MetalGerbil]

play long enough and you wont fear anything.

stupid high endless defense aside. its a game with very heavy progression. when you have the mods for it you can basically take on anything. only time i ever get behind anything is cause im reloading.

game is too easy. unlike most games you also need some skill to get by. if you are face tanking you are doing it wrong. i take loki anywhere. be it solo void3 or pluto missions or whatever.

gear and skill. now go and be a real tenno.

[RX3_Zero]

Can i tell you a secret?....we are in a mmo fps,learn to cover yourself!!!,i think warframe defenses are fine.

[10twenty4]

I think the solution here is to give us more defensive options. Preferably not making it a cover-based shooter, but through options such as making block a viable option, or giving our dodge action some invincibility (or reduced damage) frames.

[kyuosumaru]

Can i tell you a secret?....we are in a mmo fps,learn to cover yourself!!!,i think warframe defenses are fine.

fps? this is a tps

 

mmo? we can only play a mission with 4 people thats not like an mmo 

[Grilleds]

but thats exactly where SMNC failed. they tried that over at Uber, and it didnt work well. as a matter of fact, the game is practicly (in scale by number of active players a week) dead.

it would be slow. people these days have short attention spans, so this is actually a good balance.

1. enemies scale in armor, health, shields, and damage with each passing level. ultimately you wont be able to do too much later on, but thats just part of the process.

2. tenno earn health and shields as they rank up, and theres mods to boost this. if you want to be less squishy, then add in some health or shields.

3. if youre having trouble staying alive, then how about being sneaky? there are ways of eliminating rooms of enemies without so much as a bullet being fired your way. if you step back and look at whats before you, you might stand a better chance at picking off your targets.

this is a game about space ninjas, it needs to stay fast paced. its essentially required when youre dealing with ninjas in general.

That isnt why SMNC failed. SMNC failed for a large number of reasons, probably the biggest being that the game has one hell of a learning curve compared to games like TF2, and for a very long time people would setup teams on Mumble for the specific purpose of stomping new players. Uber gave up on that game, which is why its the same 30-40 people playing every day. Lets not just latch on to one element of the game at random and say "That's why it failed, so Warframe should be different", because Warframe isn't really comparable.

[Loswaith]

Used to be much that way.  People complained it was too easy, but also didnt want to take responsibility for it and reduce their mod power levels, until a real end game gets completed.

 

The game was too easy with 3-4 players and still is, it only realy got harder for soloers and some duo teams.

 

Enemies scalling in armour just make non-armour ignore weaponry obsolete.   So you end up using throwing weapons (though not sure why they are Armour Ignore when high velocity bullets arent, an oddity for other discussions).

[PaperAlien]

Can i tell you a secret?....we are in a mmo fps,learn to cover yourself!!!,i think warframe defenses are fine.

Not an MMO.

Not a FPS.

0/2

Edited August 4, 2013 by PaperAlien

[RX3_Zero]

You are all right...i not shooting stuff,i dont have a target bottom and i cant' cover or get down.

The site descricption are also wrong,such stupid arguments i have to Quote...you win, keep lying to yourselfs,

i wasting time with kids.

Edited August 4, 2013 by RX3_Zero

[Xylia]

You are all right...i not shooting stuff,i dont have a target bottom and i cant' cover or get down.

The site descricption are also wrong,such stupid arguments i have to Quote...you win, keep lying to yourselfs,

i wasting time with kids.

 

................what?

 

Could you say that again, in English please?

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Yes, please^^^.

 

And children? Your grammer says just that about you; a child.

[1stVirus]

play long enough and you wont fear anything.

stupid high endless defense aside. its a game with very heavy progression. when you have the mods for it you can basically take on anything. only time i ever get behind anything is cause im reloading.

game is too easy. unlike most games you also need some skill to get by. if you are face tanking you are doing it wrong. i take loki anywhere. be it solo void3 or pluto missions or whatever.

gear and skill. now go and be a real tenno.

damn straight and on point... fully agreed

[Xylia]

damn straight and on point... fully agreed

 

Until you get those awesome mods, just bend over, amirite?

 

*rolls eyes*

 

What a nice way to convince newbies to play your Elitist-only game, eh?

 

Let's put them through the most hellish experience, give them ridiculously squishy Warframes (you call those suits of ARMOR!?), wimpy weapons that can't kill anything, and then go "here you go!" without as much of a "this is how you get better"?

 

Until you get decent mods, you die ridiculously fast anytime you try to go past Lv30-40 stuff. It takes forever to kill anything, and Iron Skin doesn't last very long at all without Focus, neither do those 800 some shields with Rank5-ish Redirection. Mag or Nova? pfft, a stiff breeze bowls those two over. Ember, too.

[Greater_Dullahan]

Please don't bash people for their attempts at speaking the same language as you. I thought this community was better than that.

[Clessiah]

ah, the classic problem with almost every single RPG games where bosses have 80m hp while you barely have 10k but in return each of your attack hits 300k damage while the boss either hit you for either 2k or OHKO.

 

It is definitely a problem DE will run into as soon as they start to look into end game contents. I really hope they will balance out the damage dealt/received by Tennos and enemies instead of feeding players with meaningless big numbers. Being the protagonist doesn't mean we have the vitality of Roller Balls, protection of a Ancient's boot and fire power of dual Raptors!

Edited August 4, 2013 by Clessiah

[RX3_Zero]

ah, the classic problem with almost every single RPG games where bosses have 80m hp while you barely have 10k but in return each of your attack hits 300k damage while the boss either hit you for either 2k or OHKO.

 

It is definitely a problem DE will run into as soon as they start to look into end game contents. I really hope they will balance out the damage dealt/received by Tennos and enemies instead of feeding players with meaningless big numbers. Being the protagonist doesn't mean we have the vitality of Roller Balls, protection of a Ancient's boot and fire power of dual Raptors!

Look i kill a raptor without take any damge, you just need to cover(with a excalibur..without a frost on my side before trolls show up)

"Role play game" we are not in a medieval game interpreting a mage or a dwarf,there is a a difference between mmo rpg and mmo.

Edited August 4, 2013 by RX3_Zero

[Clessiah]

Look i kill a raptor without take any damge, you just need to cover(with a excalibur..without a frost on my side before trolls show up)

"Role play game" we are not in a medieval game interpreting a mage or a dwarf,there is a a difference between mmo rpg and mmo.

DE did mention that they want Warframe to be a speedy game instead of a trench warfare. Having a Raptor is a nice change of pace, but I don't think any defense mission comes with such a convenient indestructible house of safety.

 

I believe we are crawling around in the level range DE is not prepared to present, but they should definitely think it through. Personally I believe Tennos will take their own safety as priority by enhancing their defensive abilities through research/investments.

 

Did I mention medieval? I'd apologize if I did.

[RX3_Zero]

DE did mention that they want Warframe to be a speedy game instead of a trench warfare. Having a Raptor is a nice change of pace, but I don't think any defense mission comes with such a convenient indestructible house of safety.

 

I believe we are crawling around in the level range DE is not prepared to present, but they should definitely think it through. Personally I believe Tennos will take their own safety as priority by enhancing their defensive abilities through research/investments.

 

Did I mention medieval? I'd apologize if I did.

The point: we are not 'interpreting' , we arent' role playing anyone,now some missions i have to agree with you, are too hard to be done alone.

If we want a indivicual game or a more cooperative game is another topic.

[Paprika]

Progression in this game is luck based. You can't play without the right mods because it's too hard. You can't play when you have the correct mod build because it's to easy. 

 

I understand the reasoning the behind switching to the mod system from the Skill tree, but without a proper passive leveling system, things just ain't workin' out.

[Clessiah]

I use RPG to relate to the situation in Warframe where "if you ever hit yourself with your own gun you'd die instantly even though it'll still take half a clip to take down a regular grineer". I use RPG as an example because we do see the damage we deal in numbers when we hit something, and only for that.

 

And yes the current Rank 30, 60 mod points 10 slots setting is rather shallow for the growth that is required for higher level contents. It'll be nice if we have other means to strengthen our warframes more than how weapons can be modified.

[Xylia]

I use RPG to relate to the situation in Warframe where "if you ever hit yourself with your own gun you'd die instantly even though it'll still take half a clip to take down a regular grineer". I use RPG as an example because we do see the damage we deal in numbers when we hit something, and only for that.

 

And yes the current Rank 30, 60 mod points 10 slots setting is rather shallow for the growth that is required for higher level contents. It'll be nice if we have other means to strengthen our warframes more than how weapons can be modified.

 

Also, enemies do not have mods.

 

Basically, all enemies have, is base health/shields/armor/damage and a Level Number.

 

Problem: It is almost impossible to scale this to a player's equipment, because the player's equipment means absolutely nothing if they don't have the mods to accomodate them.

 

Player A might have a Level 30 Rhino with Rank5 Redirection, powers maxed, and Rush/Marathon/Thief's Wit, etc. He'll have, say, Sobek, Orthos and Acrid with no multishot, half-full damage mods, and random crit stuff.

 

Player B might have a Level 30 Rhino with Rank10 Redirection, powers maxed, Streamline, Focus, the best stuff. He'll have the same Sobek, Orthos, and Acrid all with Multishots, maxed Damage Mods, etc.

 

The game has literally zero way of telling which player is better.

 

However, the performance between these two players are WILDLY different -- Player B will wade through stuff effortlessly that will kill Player A several times over.

 

That's the problem with gating ALL of Warframe's Progression behind RNG Mods.

 

The only way to fix this is to assign values to each mod based upon their usefulness and scale enemies based upon that. But that'd be a large and complex system....

[Fenrisyn]

......Seriously.

 

The more I think about how Challenge works in the game, the more I think about Offense vs Defense.

 

I know they want a fast-paced game, but to be honest, I don't like how squishy you end up being in anything Lv40+. You can't take more than a couple hits before you're seeing red around the edges of the screen, and then you're dead two seconds later unless you either kill what is attacking you, or somehow find someplace they can't hurt you.

 

Meanwhile, on the flipside, everybody is putting more focus on "MOAR DAMAGE!" on their weapons so that everything, including high-level enemies dies in a few hits (or in extreme scenarios, one-shot).

 

Honestly, my opinion, I'd like to see the game gradually change where Tenno have more survivability, but less damage so we can stop with the ridiculous health and armor scaling on enemies, and allow us to actually survive solo without being Rhino (even Iron Skin doesn't stay up very long, and no Iron Skin means you die in 4 seconds instead of 3 in higher-level stuff).

 

Not everybody is Frost or Rhino; everybody else dies in seconds.

 

But with the ridiculous stacking of mods (especially since they added new nightmare mods that stack with old mods), the damage output of the Tenno are getting simply ridiculous. To counter this to keep the game "challenging", DE simply jacks the armor and health up on everything because they must, otherwise people one-shot everything.

 

But, if Tenno did less damage, and if mobs did less damage, we could make the game harder in different ways without making you feel like a piece of wet paper that can just look at things and they die.

 

People die in seconds? Are you running without Redirection? Because nothing in this game outside of Nightmare or high level Defense kills you that fast, unless you are not using cover. The levels are designed in such a way that there are ample opportunities to seek cover, if you play smart and don't go running into an area crowded with enemies without an escape plan.

 

Trinity and Rhino, two of the tankiest warframes in the game, can be obtained on the first 2 planets. The hardest part are the Control Modules but Europa isn't difficult either. In fact, Mag and Loki can pretty much trivialize the Raptor fight without needing extensive modding, as long as Bullet Attractor or Invisibility are maxed out. No reason not to have Trinity or Rhino if you are that against being a "glass cannon".

 

And even if you don't have those Warframes, soloing Exta with a decently modded (not even highly geared) Warframe with 5 pts in Redirection is really not much harder than it was soloing Tolstoj preU9 using your starter gear after just starting the game and not having many mods.

 

Also there is Shade. Ghost will save you especially if you learn how to trigger it at will rather than having it go off randomly. Put a max Guardian mod in (not difficult to obtain nor max out) and it will effectively double your shields (i.e., if you have 500 shields you now have 1000).

[Clessiah]

People die in seconds? Are you running without Redirection? Because nothing in this game outside of Nightmare or high level Defense kills you that fast, unless you are not using cover. The levels are designed in such a way that there are ample opportunities to seek cover, if you play smart and don't go running into an area crowded with enemies without an escape plan.

 

Trinity and Rhino, two of the tankiest warframes in the game, can be obtained on the first 2 planets. The hardest part are the Control Modules but Europa isn't difficult either. In fact, Mag and Loki can pretty much trivialize the Raptor fight without needing extensive modding, as long as Bullet Attractor or Invisibility are maxed out. No reason not to have Trinity or Rhino if you are that against being a "glass cannon".

 

And even if you don't have those Warframes, soloing Exta with a decently modded (not even highly geared) Warframe with 5 pts in Redirection is really not much harder than it was soloing Tolstoj preU9 using your starter gear after just starting the game and not having many mods.

 

Also there is Shade. Ghost will save you especially if you learn how to trigger it at will rather than having it go off randomly. Put a max Guardian mod in (not difficult to obtain nor max out) and it will effectively double your shields (i.e., if you have 500 shields you now have 1000).

I think most people don't mind bosses to be hard, since bosses give people the impression that strategy is required and we rarely run into the occasion where more than one boss appear at the same time.

 

Actually, I don't remember seeing people complain about how hard the enemies are in any mission other than defense and mobile defense (only took a few hours for people to learn how to deal with Raptor effectively without relying on specific warframes). Maybe it is just that protecting an immobile object against waves of randomly generated bullet sponges is just not something that is really fitting in a fast paced game like Warframe.

[Xylia]

People die in seconds? Are you running without Redirection? Because nothing in this game outside of Nightmare or high level Defense kills you that fast, unless you are not using cover. The levels are designed in such a way that there are ample opportunities to seek cover, if you play smart and don't go running into an area crowded with enemies without an escape plan.

 

With the ridiculous respawn of mobs, every other time I try to duck behind something..... oh wait, mobs spawned behind me and I'm getting shot in the back. There goes my shield recovery!

 

And then you got Corpus Techs... the only clue there's one in the room is its red suit... which is hard to see if there's a shield osprey near it. By the time you know there's one there, if it has 2+ seconds to start shooting.......you die 3 seconds later because they do simply RIDICULOUS damage.

 

Scorpions. If they're standing behind other enemies and you don't see the b---- right away, she'll hook you and drag you. You're dead before you get to stand up, OR you're taking health damage and you're standing right beside several other grineer.... several feet away from the nearest object. You might get to cover, but then again if you do... you're missing half of your health and if that happens again, you ARE dead.

 

 

 

Trinity and Rhino, two of the tankiest warframes in the game, can be obtained on the first 2 planets. The hardest part are the Control Modules but Europa isn't difficult either. In fact, Mag and Loki can pretty much trivialize the Raptor fight without needing extensive modding, as long as Bullet Attractor or Invisibility are maxed out. No reason not to have Trinity or Rhino if you are that against being a "glass cannon".

 

Rhino is OK until you start getting up to around Lv40-50 stuff. Then you NEED Focus for his Iron Skin to stay up very long at all. Guess what? 240 hours according to Steam.........no Focus.

 

Trinity? I could never get that Link thing to work like people claim it does, but then maybe it has something to do with missing Focus? I dunno. I find that Trinity drops dead anytime you take more than a couple hits. Once your shields go down, that 10 armor means you die in 2 hits, because increasing Health doesn't do jack when you take full damage from anything that hits you. So, trying to "Tank" anything as Trinity means spamming the link button to make sure not more than a second passes between Links. If it goes down and you get hit a couple times? You're hurting, and hurting bad. And then there's the whole "Gotta use Energy Vampire.....gotta use Link....oh wait, Vampire is about to wear off... gotta recast it... oh crap, Link is down...." and pray you don't make a mistake, otherwise you have 0 energy and you're defenseless.

 

And the sad thing of it is? You can't boost her armor, because Steel Fiber is a %. Which makes it a USELESS mod for anybody but Frost and Rhino.

 

 

 

And even if you don't have those Warframes, soloing Exta with a decently modded (not even highly geared) Warframe with 5 pts in Redirection is really not much harder than it was soloing Tolstoj preU9 using your starter gear after just starting the game and not having many mods.

 

Lv60 junk with Rank5 Redirection? Maybe if you got maxed out weapons, sure... I bet you could solo anything with a maxed out Ogris. Here's a hint: Not everybody has nightmare mods on their Ogris.

 

 

 

Also there is Shade. Ghost will save you especially if you learn how to trigger it at will rather than having it go off randomly. Put a max Guardian mod in (not difficult to obtain nor max out) and it will effectively double your shields (i.e., if you have 500 shields you now have 1000).

 

Not sure how you "learn how to trigger" something it does automaticaly; anytime an enemy gets near you, poof. Whether you wanted it or not. Oh, and Corpus Cameras AND even de-activated turrets will cause it too, so Shade ends up wasting its Ghost 50% of the time on a Corpus map, because it thinks you need to hide from cameras and inactive turrets.

 

Oh, and you don't STAY CLOAKED half the time either. S0metimes it'll cloak me and it wears off a split second later (even if I don't attack). And YES, I DO have it max rank. Other times, it gives me nearly 20 seconds.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Xylia