Ember feedback and one tweak

[Walkampf]

Full disclosure:

-I think the changes to Ember were a buff, not a nerf.

-I played several 1h+ survival missions VS different factions since the patch.

-My build for reference: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ember_prime/t_30_2220440330_1-4-10-2-5-10-4-6-5-5-3-5-12-1-7-13-7-3-34-8-5-479-0-10-615-9-5-726-2-5_479-7-12-7-726-8-5-9-1-7-2-6-4-9-13-7-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-4

 

All in all i'm very pleased with where ember is right now.

The additional damage from World of Fire helps a lot in longer missions. That's definitly a plus, even though in those long survivals Ember reaches a breakingpoint again. However, this point is now a lot later than before.

Energy usage was not an issue since i frequently turned off WoF and used thios downtime to make use of Zenurik to quickly refill my energypool.

It was a lot more fun than before, since I had to think about when i turned WoF of in order to catch my breath and when to leave it running in order to keep the +100% damage multiplier in the later parts of the mission.

On the flipside, during the earlier parts is was able to do business as usual, meaning, i was able to melt enemies like it's nobodies business.

I want to remind other players, the pre-patch WoF is not gone.

You simply have to turn WoF off and on again every few seconds.

And here is what i think a lot of Ember players get wrong about the reason for the changes.

I think the problem was not that Ember performed very well during the starchart, but that all you had to do was press 4 once and you were set. I think that's the reason why Whip-weapons + Maimstrike are of no concern to DE. They are very strong, just like WoF and can net a single player a very large share of the kills, however it's something you have to activly do. the Pre-patch-WoF, just as the pre-patch-Resonating Quake, literally only took one bottun press and you were set.

Thus i think DEs issue with WoF was not that is was ruining the fun for other players, but that is was massivly reducing the needed amount of action on the side of the Ember-user.

 

Now, after the patch, since WoFs first 5 seconds are just like pre-patch you have to activly monitor WoF, but if you do then it's easy to get the pre-patch results.

The only issue with the constant toggeling is the amount of engery required to keep WoF in the low-damage/high-range mode of the ability. Especially newer payers will face massive problems to use this mode reliably, since they might still need to get the right mods to reduce energycost or are lacking access to the Zenurik school.

-The tweak i'd suggest is reducing the activation cost of WoF to 35 or even 25.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Walkampf

[Walkampf]

I will keep testing Ember today with a tweaked build and post the update later.

The new build:

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ember_prime/t_30_2220440330_1-4-10-2-5-10-4-6-5-5-7-5-6-3-5-34-8-5-411-1-8-479-0-10-615-9-5-726-2-5_479-7-411-7-726-8-6-11-1-7-2-6-4-9-5-5-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-4/

Theoretically this shift from duration should reduce activation costs but keep running costs about the same, since duration behaves just as efficiency in context of continued energy drain.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Walkampf

[Lunarez]

The problem I have right now is that all of her addition changes doesn't scale with any mods.

I mean. WoF could have the duration mods increase the time it takes to charge up so for the CC build they could run full Duration/range, and still going on, needing to refresh WoF once in a while. Fireball fire patch doesn't scale with range and duration. and her Fireblast ring litterally doesn't scale with anything but duration. (range doesn't make it bigger and strength doesn't increase bonus fire damage)

if this issue is fixed we may see some new Ember playstyle like chokepoint hold ember that use Fireball patch and Accelerant to control tight corridor with burn panic proc. Or maybe a Fireblast/flash accel build that focus on team dps buff. But until then, she's pretty much too tedious to use.

[Walkampf]

il y a 40 minutes, Lunarez a dit :

The problem I have right now is that all of her addition changes doesn't scale with any mods.

While this is true for some mods, like range and duration that you mentioned, this is very wrong for stength.

Not only does it increase the base-damage of her abilities, but it also effects accelerants damage buff, thus literally effecting her damage twice.

And i think that, at least for the Fireball trap, this will be fixed in the near future, as soon as more severe bugs are taken care of.

Regarding Ring of Fire... well, in all honesty, pre-patch it was her tool for area controll. Now that this can be done by Fireball as well, i quite honestly think that Ring of Fire is now free to be replaced by another ability.

 

il y a 40 minutes, Lunarez a dit :

I mean. WoF could have the duration mods increase the time it takes to charge up so for the CC build they could run full Duration/range, and still going on, needing to refresh WoF once in a while.

I had the same idea, however i came to the conclusion that it whould hinder ember in the endgame.

If DE fixes duration not effecting Fireballs fire trap havin some duration whould be an advantage for lategame Ember, but this then would get in the way since it's slowing down WoF getting to full power, in case when you have to deactivate it.

I think it's the better option to to keep it as is. It's making earlygame Ember have to do stuff. lategame Ember has to frequently use accelerant for CC/damage buff. However, lategame Ember doesn't need to pay attention to WoF anymore.

By keeping the rampup duration non-extendable this forces earlygame Ember to be active despite not yet having to pay attention to accelerant.

The way requires Ember to use abilites in both, early and late game. Just that in transition the focus changes from recasting WoF to using accelerant.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Walkampf

[Lunarez]

Quote

While this is true for some mods, like range and duration that you mentioned, this is very wrong for stength.

Not only does it increase the base-damage of her abilities, but it also effects accelerants damage buff, thus literally effecting her damage twice.

And i think that, at least for the Fireball trap, this will be fixed in the near future, as soon as more severe bugs are taken care of.

Regarding Ring of Fire... well, in all honesty, pre-patch it was her tool for area controll. Now that this can be done by Fireball as well, i quite honestly think that Ring of Fire is now free to be replaced by another ability.

 

I was talking about the things that were added this patch, which are Fireball fire patch and bonus damage when shooting through fire ring (although the fire ring size is somewhat an old issue.) The funny thing is, most of whatever changes they added in this patch seems to not scale to any mods so far from what I see on other frames thread also.

Maybe DE is too rush about this patch they forget to add the mod scaling....

 

Quote

If DE fixes duration not effecting Fireballs fire trap havin some duration whould be an advantage for lategame Ember, but this then would get in the way since it's slowing down WoF getting to full power, in case when you have to deactivate it.

I think it's the better option to to keep it as is. It's making earlygame Ember have to do stuff. lategame Ember has to frequently use accelerant for CC/damage buff. However, lategame Ember doesn't need to pay attention to WoF anymore.

By keeping the rampup duration non-extendable this forces earlygame Ember to be active despite not yet having to pay attention to accelerant.

The way requires Ember to use abilites in both, early and late game. Just that in transition the focus changes from recasting WoF to using accelerant.

I found that having duration scaling on WoF is a bit more flexible and giving Ember more playstyle to fiddle with.

Right now. WoF need around 10 seconds to fully charge up. And she can reach around 300% duration with mods. So that's around 30 second maximum. However, this will render her WoF unusable due to having around 2.5m charged.

For most CC Firequake build, the build can cover the range with overextend and stretch since this build doesn't care much about power strength. This one is also got nerfed the most out of every builds since it rely on high range Firequake and Accelerant and ditch damage component of WoF completely, meaning it gets no benefits from charging up WoF. After the change this build not only need to spam their Accelerant every 3 sec, you also need to restart WoF every 5 sec. However, having duration effect the charge time will greatly change the current state of this build from being unviable, to needing some range micro management while giving CC build more skills to play with (Fireball fire patch, after range and duratiion is fixed to work with mods ofc.) This build is pretty much already active in playstyle already since it's mostly play on 60+ level missions.

For damage build, This open up for the use of negative duration mods to reach the maximum charge faster. This though trade some energy effeciency for faster ramp-up of WoF, but for damage ember, it's all about 'kill things before things kill you' so ramping faster can be beneficial and turn WoF into a semi-nuke, Although the energy cost become more harder to manage with negative duration, this will create the need to maintenance your energy by toggle WoF on and off instead of fire and forgot.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Lunarez

[Walkampf]

Il y a 2 heures, Lunarez a dit :

For most CC Firequake build, the build can cover the range with overextend and stretch since this build doesn't care much about power strength.

This whole paragraph is missing the point.

Il y a 2 heures, Lunarez a dit :

For damage build, This open up for the use of negative duration mods to reach the maximum charge faster. This though trade some energy effeciency for faster ramp-up of WoF, but for damage ember, it's all about 'kill things before things kill you' so ramping faster can be beneficial and turn WoF into a semi-nuke, Although the energy cost become more harder to manage with negative duration, this will create the need to maintenance your energy by toggle WoF on and off instead of fire and forgot.

1st - No... it whould not turn WoF into a semi Nuke. Nuke damage, or burst damage is a damage during a very short time. WoF is still a DoT ability, even if you ramp up it's charge time.

2nd - A faster ramp whould hardly make sense. 10 seconds is not that long, making it 5 seconds and completly breaking the continued drain whould break the ability.

 

Even worse, it whould gimp low-level players, who want to use the ability offensivly without havin the needed mods to gain sufficent dps without every mod available.

 

Litereally the only people who whould win out with this change is a small portion, who use the accelerant/firequake build you mentioned, since this build whould then, again, allow for a 'fire and forget' build, or call it 'firequake and forget'.

Basically, allowing the rampup to be effected by duration whould revert the ability to it's pre-patch state, making the whole change for nothing.

In the end you whould make anyone playing damage-Ember suffer in order to make a single Augment 'work' in a way that is not intended.

 

Also, the whole Firequake stuff is missing the point, which is why i bothered to link to the build i'm using.

[ZonePL]

personally, i'm mad not because of the buff/nerf, rather the fact, that DE wanted one thing, stated that this change for that exact purpose, when it didn't changed the way they intended.

Currently ember is still old ember with a little bit more powerful and less wide and less efficient 4

Edited February 11, 2018 by ZonePL