We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[Kinjeto]

...well...

i cant read all this wall of text, im sure there are great ideas here but i prefer play the game insted...

...if you want more challange just take off your mods from frames and weapons.

the endgame is WARFARM!

I'll just be leaving these here...

http://www.thatsaterribleidea.com/2009/12/serious-games-live-in-metagame.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/022010/5716_The-Endgame-Myth

http://taugrim.com/2013/06/10/why-pve-content-shouldnt-be-a-coral-reef/

http://taugrim.com/2013/06/06/the-two-big-issues-plaguing-mmorpg-game-developers/

 

Also more recently this one:

http://www.gatheryourparty.com/articles/2013/05/29/difficulty-youre-gonna-carry-that-weight/

and this:

The challenge is, is it possible to create enough 'systems' that can in/envolve/evolve enough meta-game because In PvE it has never been done seriously before. I suppose in some ways you could say it was done with MOBAs but that is still 'PvP'.

As crazy as it might sound...

Can leader/ranking/??? boards be a meta game?

Can varying experiences controlled by a computer be a meta game?

Can there be enough variety in system responses be a meta game?

It is an interesting challenge and I've never seen it done on a level that grips/paces/engages people. I'd also be kidding myself if in 1 or 2 years from now I said or wrote what I did here and everyone smirked at me. But we've got technology. The console lounge room gaming 'computer' *platform* was last cross-platformed with "PvP" in 2007 with Shadowrun.

http://www.techhive.com/article/203559/answered_did_microsoft_kill_cross_platform_play.html

Not to say I am sick and tired of PvP. I still enjoy the likes of Tribes Ascend, Killing Floor, TF2, Super Monday Night Combat, Guild Wars 2, Firefall, Hawken, numerous other things and the like (with friends) but I'm moving on to this point in my life where psychology, socialisation, fun competitive over toxic retardation (wait no it's the internet).

Edited August 30, 2013 by Kinjeto

[Paprika]

I've added a bit of commentary to your post in bold.

http://www.thatsaterribleidea.com/2009/12/serious-games-live-in-metagame.html

 

There is little metagame depth in Warframe. As many have stated, there is no strategy portion to this. Unlike games like Journey, DE can't get away with this because the game is arcade style and lacks story and drive for the player to finish any planet. Since there is no "why" given by the game's story, no bigger picture, the "why" has to be "the game is fun, and I'm finding new ways to do things; I'm finding beter ways to do things".

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/022010/5716_The-Endgame-Myth

 

We all want endgame. But it's more because the process of grinding feels so dead that we can't accept the fact that levelling up a warframe is the game itself. There is no real progression. It's just get mods, finish the solar map, and that's it. The process of finishing the solar map isn't fun. 

 

... I'm sorry. that's not fair of me to say. What I'm saying is that the first 10 missions you run feel amazing because the difficulty level and possibilities are reasonably balanced by the watered down stats on both sides. Soon, though, the game kind of feels watery, and the arcade slice n' dice/run n' gun formula doesn't feel right. This thread suggests adding an endgame, and while it's not necessary, a lot of the gameplay mechanics need reworking.

http://taugrim.com/2013/06/10/why-pve-content-shouldnt-be-a-coral-reef/

 

It's not a bad idea, and the Devs plan on implementing something like this, but the thing is that it brings about a sense of competition and isolation in a game that was built around the beautiful vision of a completely co-op game. Competition might harm it. I think the guy who wrote the article had some good ideas, though. Mainly concerning horizontal progression. Instead of stat progression, I would like to see some new skills become unlockable through time/skill-based achievements like an obstacle course run awarding a new movement/attack animation set.

http://taugrim.com/2013/06/06/the-two-big-issues-plaguing-mmorpg-game-developers/

 

An eye-opener. I understand. But there are some Game mechanics that need overhauls. What I'm talking about is stuff like Ultimates. I'm of the opinion that the model for ultimates needs to be looked at. Reworking moves isn't something the Devs are new to, but that general rework would go a long way in addressing issues presented by the community.

 

Also more recently this one:
http://www.gatheryourparty.com/articles/2013/05/29/difficulty-youre-gonna-carry-that-weight/
and this:

The challenge is, is it possible to create enough 'systems' that can in/envolve/evolve enough meta-game because In PvE it has never been done seriously before. I suppose in some ways you could say it was done with MOBAs but that is still 'PvP'.

The thing is, I see the path to reasonable difficulty is through a rework of all the warframe powers, and that is 100% possible. Instead of damage-abased moves, utility moves can be the norm, setting up damage through melee, stealth, or gun-play. If stealth and relevant melee weapons take years to come, nobody will mind so long as the the movesets are redone. The nature of the game gives it the potential to be the first PvE to maybe get challenge right. It's not happening today. It's not happening tomorrow, but we need the Devs to say they are open to taking this road.

 

Another portion of this is AI, and that is quite difficult, but we can wait awhile for that, as well.

[r3dzer0]

In your link on MMORPG.com ( i happened to read it real quick in its entirety) it does mention a disconnect between the player base and developers.  THat's all fine and gravy.  there will always be a disconnect between players and developers.  ME3 and the player base is a prime example.  Though i may not have liked the fact that commander shepard dies at the end, I can understand that from bioware's point of view that that was the end of his story. 

 

Unlike Bioware though, DE has not given me any lore, difficulty, or anything entertaining past the first five uses.  Weapons become dull after you use them a few times, Warframes are the same.  The ai is laughable at best since they effectively run into your bullets instead of using tactics.  We are presenting that since there is no lore, lore can be introduced through endgame and backtracked if need be, or if they insist on making us wait they can build up to it.  I enjoy warframe very thoroughly but i find it hard to finish the solar map because its tedious to say the least.  Borderline neurotic. 

 

Also while its new, the new survival mode is very drull and laced with rng mechanics that give me a nightmare 8-|.  not really surviving mobs as much as you are surviving playing russian roulette. 

 

I'm glad they're looking at game types, but they really NEED lore to keep us interested.  I have no interest in just killing things for the fun of it.  that is psychotic and they have games like prototype and slaughter house that fulfill those roles very nicely.  Reason is what we all seek to know why we do what we do and a possible endgame could fix that very thing.  it most certainly would keep people occupied while they rework planets lore and bosses IMO.

[jpvi1207]

more feedback, lore specific, made by me

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/100643-lore-how-it-should-be/#entry1149383

[Eisvogel]

more feedback, lore specific, made by me

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/100643-lore-how-it-should-be/#entry1149383

 

Just got back... busy days....

Adding link to OP :3

[icosta27]

Warframe Endgame...

 

My Idea:

 

- Buff enemies, massively. This includes a lot of different things. The best way to describe this would be Bungie's Halo. Most games copy this format (i'm sure bungie wasn't the first either) of having enemy groups consisting of different levels of difficulty by the multiple types of enemies that are there.

 

Here's the scenario for better understanding:

 

Halo(1):                   Warframe(Infested):

Grunt                       Charger

Jackle                      Runner

Elite                         Ancient (Heal)

Hunter                     Ancient (Poison)

 

This is just a simple example of your 4 tiers of difficulty when it comes to this type of gameplay. Now lets start with Warframe. Any mission at any given time, when you interact in combat with any of the above 4 enemies what does one do? 1. They kite, so they can't get either knocked down, poisoned, or stunned. That's it. There is your 100% total comprehensive overview of strategic difficulty in terms of combat in Warframe at the present moment. Don't get me wrong it's fun... but needs a change.

 

Now, the reason I chose Halo as an excellent example is for this reason. Halo 1 legendary, lets go over the same scenario here. Same question.. At any given time when you interact in combat with any of the above 4 enemies what does one do? (Difficulty Legendary)

 

 

1. Grunt - Easy to kill very much like infested. But always wanted to make sure you kept a good distance because in a pack, they could throw sticky grenades that could 1 shot you. Yes, the easiest enemy in the game had the ability to skill-shot (sticky grenade) 1 shot you at any given moment if you weren't paying attention.

 

 

2. Jackle - Another easy opponent, a tad bit harder to kill than a grunt. These guys were the Grineer Shield A-Holes we come to love to this day. But these guys would not come at you with just one lonesome guy walking aimlessly towards his demise. They worked as a group. Shields placed forward in an almost "300 The Movie" like fashion, making those skill snipes to the head crucial for these moments.

 

 

3.Elite - My favorite of all the enemies I encountered. They were tough, mean, agile, and leaders of the pack. These guys would take cover, dodge, roll, do immense amounts of damage while also being able to take immense amounts of damage. They could stick you with a grenade. Get close? They would pistol whip you in the face for crazy damage or in some cases slice you with a sword killing you in an instant. You had to be on your toes for these fights.  Having 1 person taunt them while dodging the barrage of attacks while another person stood at high ground skillfully taking each down one by one was 1 popular way of dealing with this. But for these instances you had to do the "4 D's of dodgeball"  Dodge, Duck, Dive, and .. Dodge. ;) While at the same shooting them while they were doing the same thing, it was quite hectic and VERY fun to play. (Bear in mind this game was made in the year 2000, yes 13 years ago, so the AI in that game should not be unimaginable for Warframe to accomplish)

 

 

4. HUNTER - When one (or two in some very difficult instances) would be faced in battle. The entire environment would change. The ENTIRE focus would be only on this enemy. Why? Because if you kept your eye off him for one second, this 12 foot giant muscular crazy alien with a enormous green plasma lazer cannon of death and a HUGE shield would either smash you, beat you, blow you up, you get my point.... The coolest thing about this encounter is that they are the hardest enemy in the game BUT if you were fast enough while being skillfully accurate at the same time. You could roll behind them and if your lucky get 1 bullet (yes 1) insides of a tinyyy weakspot straight into there spine. This wasn't an easy task whatsoever. But was VERY rewarding when pulled off correctly! (Warframes version of the Hunter would be a Captain which well.. he's annoying and teleports...that's about it.)

 

 

The point i'm trying to make here is Warframe NEEDS that level of difficulty. Where Co-op, Strategy, and working together is vital for the success of the mission.  To this day, 13 years later I can remember specific battles in Halo 1 which I had with friends. They were memorable, why? Because we felt as if we accomplished something huge by defeating something that was difficult. That's what makes good gaming, that's what makes a great co-op, that's what creates addictive combat...

 

 

 

That's my 2 cents.

Edited August 31, 2013 by icosta27

[r3dzer0]

 

 

4. HUNTER - When one (or two in some very difficult instances) would be faced in battle. The entire environment would change. The ENTIRE focus would be only on this enemy. Why? Because if you kept your eye off him for one second, this 12 foot giant muscular crazy alien with a enormous green plasma lazer cannon of death and a HUGE shield would either smash you, beat you, blow you up, you get my point.... The coolest thing about this encounter is that they are the hardest enemy in the game BUT if you were fast enough while being skillfully accurate at the same time. You could roll behind them and if your lucky get 1 bullet (yes 1) insides of a tinyyy weakspot straight into there spine. This wasn't an easy task whatsoever. But was VERY rewarding when pulled off correctly! (Warframes version of the Hunter would be a Captain which well.. he's annoying and teleports...that's about it.)

 

 

Dunno bout you but it was actually rather easy to take down hunters.... Especially in Halo one.  I even went as far as not wasting my ammo but just letting them run past me and melee them in the small of the back.  Halo 2+ is where they were buffed and became what you have described them as such.  Elites were the real *@##$es in halo 1.  just cuz of their shields grenades and plasma rifles.  and the weakspot was actually rather large considering you were more than likely toe to toe with a hunter.  I do agree though, the ai needs tweaking. I don't think that that is what i would call endgame.  Hearken rather to borderlands where they have bosses that require moving avoiding and damaging weakspots to take down an asinine amount of health would be much closer.  I do think however that in forcing co-op we deny the solo player the ability to solo.

 

In short, imo, ai and lore are the major things we need for a challenge, and reason to keep playing.  without those two things we'll just farm for what we want, play with it and put warframe back in the toybox till we get an itch to take it out again

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Thanks for your feedback

 

I'll add the entry in OP

[Paprika]

Hey, I just had this idea regarding infestation and how that might be tweaked. 

 

One of the problems with stealth is that there isn't a fixed number of spawns. More NPC's can spawn in the middle of the game. 

 

I thought that maybe, instead, we could have units of three ancients traveling about the map at the beginning. the number of these is fixed. These don't spawn. at the beginning of the game, there are no grunts (chargers, leapers, or runners). Within each unit is a healer ancient. Healer ancients will be reworked. All offensive abilities will be removed from healers. They will become more tanky. They will be blind and have AoE line of sight based on hearing. They follow one Disrupter and one Toxic. If the Healer "sees" you, it hits the ground and runs. It continues hitting the ground every 10 seconds or so. Every ground hit summons insane numbers of "grunts". I mean INSANE numbers. So much so that it's easy to become inundated (even for Warframe standards). 

 

Why did I bring this up? Because it allows for a rework of Infestation and stealth play. My wishlist for stealth is light/dark affecting enemy behavior, one hit kill/insanely powerful stealth attacks (it should do way more than charge attack damage), stealth attacks being possible so long as you're out of enemy lines of sight (even if they know you're aboard), and drop down stealth kills (dropping from ledges).

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

I had missed this, i'll give it a read and check it out to add the entry

Edited September 1, 2013 by Eisvogel

[NIL0S]

@OP, Excellently well written and thought out suggestions.

I'm now something like 240 hours in (became a founder at 180 hours played) and have unlocked all the dots, yet i'm still satisfied with the content, though i begin to see where OP might be coming from. I'd say that the whole farming nightmare mods and running voids for prime gear and FORMA *is* a sort of end-game, it's just as short lived as the new stuff you can gain from it (love the parkour parts in Orokin Towers, more of that please). ATM the weekend events are a really good way of keeping things fresh, the challange for DE IMO is keeping them (and their rewards) meaningful, though.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

It's an idea..... though i don't know if it wouldn't mean a total rework of the system.... because i doubt that's the it works now.

Also, while i see where you are coming from with this.... i don't think an insane amount of enemies it's the best idea.... first of all, it's just more kills for AoE and end tier weapons with the way gameplay currently is....... and second, the game already has a terrible performance... an insane number of objects and AI could make the instance much more horrible to play. I mean... look at this survival event...... it quickly escalates to frame-rate death and constant stuttering in high end PCs.... it probably becomes unresponsive for players with decent but no so good rigs....

 

On another note, while the idea would be good for maybe a specific mission type for stealth..... i wouldn't like it as a default preset for any mission.... it's like suddenly we'll be playing another game, focused on playing it on stealth mode instead of WarFrame.

[Paprika]

-snip-

As regards the AoE ultimates and tier weapons, they've gotta go anyways. The grand majority is against "4-spamming" and OP weapons.

 

I don't think this forces stealth. If you have a tank, a DPS, and utility frame and you can use environment to your advantage (shooting them as they funnel through doorways), stealth isn't necessary.

 

But you're other points are valid. Especially the frame-rate drop.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Paprika

[jpvi1207]

As regards the AoE ultimates and tier weapons, they've gotta go anyways. The grand majority is against "4-spamming" and OP weapons.

 

I don't think this forces stealth. If you have a tank, a DPS, and utility frame and you can use environment to your advantage (shooting them as they funnel through doorways), stealth isn't necessary.

 

But you're other points are valid. Especially the frame-rate drop

the 4 kill all is supposed to be there, AS A LAST RESOURCE, OP weapons arent OP, its just that the other weapons need a significant advantage to be able to compete with the so called "OP weapons", as an example, rifle mods right now need a buff, to be able to compete with the acrids power

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Yeah, skills should be situational privileges... not spam fests.... probably some well thought cooldowns will accomplish that

[jpvi1207]

Yeah, skills should be situational privileges... not spam fests.... probably some well thought cooldowns will accomplish that

cooldown is the key, to nerf those stalker wanna-bes

XD

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

I think everyone, myself included, enjoyed the addition of void missions a lot... the tilesets, the traps, the treasure rooms...... thing is, that feeling lasted just as much as Phobos did...... 1 hour.... maybe 2.... maybe one day..... and then that was it.

 

I would really like to start seeing players on most of the missions and to see players still enjoy the gameplay after 10 and 20 hours of game.... i would love to see some challenge and meaning infused in the current gameplay, instead of *new* instantly burned content that merely repeats in a slightly different way what we have been doing all along.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Eisvogel

[Eisvogel]

cooldown is the key, to nerf those stalker wanna-bes

XD

 

LoL XD

 

I do think cooldowns are the best option at this point and another systems wouldn't help much at all, at this point we really need a tactical limited use approach

[Inkyubasu]

There are lots of good ideas here,and bad ones too,you started from boss and ended whit "spamfest" maybe they should add different kinds of enemies? i saw a guy that posted some kind of tank or something interrupting on the mission,and actually that was pretty cool,but they could add vehicles to the enemy? some infested motorcycle,you know this guys are very creative so it should be an awesome vehicle,maybe not for the players but for the ai, but well i don't really know , the problem is,they read all the suggestions we made? i mean good or bad

i'm just wondering,cause i don't really know

[RazorTip]

Gotta ask, why hasn't this thread been pinned yet? It's got nearly 20 pages of ideas for improvement, I'd say it's time to stick it to the front page for good.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

 I don't think any of us will know that..... the best we can say, is that they claim that the sections they read are these ones... the feedback sections. Anything other than that remains unknown.

 

But i guess we all hope they do... because be it these ideas or others..... we need a change, a reason for players to keep playing... something to still enjoy the gameplay after 10 hours, something to strive along the way and to look forward to.... something different than the starting planet, a sense of accomplishment along the way, and many other things.

[jpvi1207]

new feedback, using exploits to win events is punished with ban

[r3dzer0]

new feedback, using exploits to win events is punished with ban

i think that that, along with many other things that i've seen, pvp  friendly fire, probably belong in a different thread, as it is this one seems to be getting derailed

[Eisvogel]

Let's try to keep this feedback and suggestions only, and what's related to the topic.

 

Events and exploits are something for DE to take care about, if they ever will... who knows, so far they haven't. But let's not prolong off-topic things like that here.

 

In another note, if i finish my work early, I'll add up the things I've been postponing to finally add the last of enemies section.

[Eisvogel]

Corpus section finally started.... having some thoughts and i can't make up my mind about Grineer hit-scan, that's mostly what troubles me about them when thinking about how to step up their game