We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[r3dzer0]

right here's the doc i've been making.  haven't had time to get through it all, just got up through the grineer.  tell me what you like or don't.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iRvag0bXvwOWDfC1HZg6QsNRJYQmTR8UI7bxf_Wfiqc

[Paprika]

Add in that the enemies should move around behind cover so as to "surround" the player, forcing the player to stay in motion. This'll be in line with DE's wish to avoid "cover fire" gameplay.

 

Add telegraphing on Scorpion pulls (make it obvious and easy to avoid). Add AI in Scorpions to get them to pull you closer to large groups of enemies (Pulling should end with knocking the Tenno on the ground so as to make it dangerous to get caught off-guard by Scorpions).

 

Otherwise, very nice.

[r3dzer0]

I'm not sure that Scorpions don't already telegraph.... i see their hand come up and i know they're gonna launch their cable, the problem for me is that they never really hit....( well not much of a problem but rather a blessing haha) I'd like the cables to be breakable so the player can still retain control as long as they have their composure and whits about them.

 

added your stuff in and started on corpus and their lack of units..... infested will be even better haha.

[Eisvogel]

right here's the doc i've been making.  haven't had time to get through it all, just got up through the grineer.  tell me what you like or don't.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iRvag0bXvwOWDfC1HZg6QsNRJYQmTR8UI7bxf_Wfiqc

 

D: D: D:

 

Who is this eisvegol you speak of xD? It hurtz my feelings :'(

:P

Edited September 12, 2013 by Eisvogel

[r3dzer0]

sorry lol was 3 in the morning and i was tired from work xD

 

What does everyone think about a heavy melee grineer?

[litlit]

That would be fine, as long as it didn't have that annoying ground slam. I'm fine with enemies that can stun/disable players, but uninterruptable stuns really need to go.

[r3dzer0]

I agree.  they wouldn't have a ground pound like others, since that effectively pushes you away, they'd want to draw you in.  I think however to counter the whole thing, you would have a sequence of keys/buttons to press to "cut" the cable and free yourself, and stagger the heavy melee/scorpions.  Which leads me to another thing, for stealth kills, they should be 100% kill except on heavies, but you have to do  a 2-5 button combo for it to work(*based on unit size armor etc) messing up the combo allows the unit to live and he alerts his friends.

[Eisvogel]

Add in that the enemies should move around behind cover so as to "surround" the player, forcing the player to stay in motion. This'll be in line with DE's wish to avoid "cover fire" gameplay.

 

It's funny though, they say they wish that..... but the cheapmode... i mean, nightmare mode :P.... attempts to force exactly the opposite to try and fabricate a virtual "challenge", where players need to slow down the pace and use cover tactics... particularly true with energy drain mode.

[litlit]

I agree.  they wouldn't have a ground pound like others, since that effectively pushes you away, they'd want to draw you in.  I think however to counter the whole thing, you would have a sequence of keys/buttons to press to "cut" the cable and free yourself, and stagger the heavy melee/scorpions.  Which leads me to another thing, for stealth kills, they should be 100% kill except on heavies, but you have to do  a 2-5 button combo for it to work(*based on unit size armor etc) messing up the combo allows the unit to live and he alerts his friends.

Hm, I'm not sure quick time events are a good idea. But it might work if it's something like, your squadmates can kill the unit pulling you in or shoot/melee the cable, and the player who has been grabbed can spam melee to cut it themselves (that way solo players have a chance; might be a better idea for them to not spawn in solo-mode though).

 

[edit]: About stealth kills on heavies... Again I remain dubious about quick time events here. I have a few thoughts:

 

-It might be best for heavies to die to stealth attacks like other enemies do.

 

-Heavy units take more than 1 stealth attack to die. The animation could be pretty quick, not that much longer than it is now. Maybe the Tenno strikes them and hurts them badly. The heavy doesn't die and reacts by knocking the Tenno away; however, the heavy is stunned from surprise and pain, unable to speak loud enough to shout for help. As a result the Tenno has a small window of time before the heavy comes to its senses and enters "alerted" status. During this window the Tenno can execute another stealth attack to finish it off. This makes assassinating heavies pretty risky, since it would take twice as long to do as stealth killing other enemies

 

-Heavy units take 1 stealth attack to kill. But maybe they are killed loudly, or the stealth kill animation takes longer to complete, so they need to be picked off more carefully or even avoided.

 

-Your idea might work if there was a more robust stealth system in place. I have a personal distaste for quick time events and I don't think they'd work too well in an online game, but really I'm not sure. Are there any examples of quick time events that worked very well in fast-paced, online co-op shooters, or even in other types of games that seem applicable?

Edited September 12, 2013 by litlir

[Eisvogel]

Well... i finally took the time to briefly write down the idea i had talked about some pages ago..... but i would say it will face divided opinions at best :P

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/105231-how-to-achieve-balance-and-avoid-nerfing/

[r3dzer0]

I see ur point litir but afyer having played tons of god of war I don't thimk it'd be that bad. Like I said 2-5 button. Like fire fire melee. Hell I'd be fine with jusytwo buttons every time or just straight out kill. I think for heavies tthat ciuld be an option. But when would the others know when hes in danger etc. Sorry for mispelled crap. My phone hates this forum setup

[KARMA2605]

Got caught up on this thread today at work (it was a slow day lol), lots of good ideas.

 

I think tho that either the title may be misleading, only in the sense that a lot of people came in here expecting Endgame to be the big issue while I personally felt like most of the really good suggestions focused on improving gameplay as a whole.  Just a thought, but might it be more efficient to take all the best ideas from either category and make two new threads in point form?  There are a lot of good ideas here, but I think at 22 pages some things are slipping through the cracks and a lot of people aren't taking the time to read them all.

 

For my two cents, I definitely think ideas you've presented that should be focused on are:

 

- improved AI in terms of tactics or action (speed, maneuvers, etc) rather than only stats

- make each faction even more unique in terms of play style (ie focus Corpus even more on neat tech tricks unique to them, Infested even faster, etc)

- include more map challenges (ie parkour challenges at times, the infested "grass" grab idea, fire generation in map tiles after core breach, etc)

- a random events generator for missions, to keep player's on their toes (though don't make it too common, so as to be more annoying then challenging)

 

In regards to input of story, I made some suggestions to the mission track logic and mission types being able to pay further into story and meaning.  You can check them out here if you like - I unfortunately made a forum taboo in posting them in different threads, so apologies for two links:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/104895-make-the-mission-track-more-logical/

 

I think both of my threads show how with a little more rework of how and in what sequence missions are presented in, it could get rid of some of the tedium that Eisvogel (I believe) was talking about where a new planet like Phobos is presented and yet no-one cares what the hell they are doing, just what is the fastest way to get to the bosses.

 

I also have some interesting ideas for bosses, specific ones, but am curious if you feel this is the thread to present those.  Let me know, if so I will type up my thoughts tomorrow.

 

Great job on keeping this thread relatively flame free and productive guys!

 

EDITED TO CONDENSE TWO THREAD LINKS INTO ONE

Edited September 13, 2013 by KARMA2605

[r3dzer0]

I'll reply to this here Karma.  I actually had read your other posts earlier today.  If you look here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63428-cells-this-is-warframes-endgame/ this adds a type of linking between missions creating a story arc and quests that add lore and rewards to the game.

 

The idea of the topic, is that the game as it currently is lacks direction.  A bit of the direction that we need is endgame and reworks.  Many of the points in here have been regarding reworks -enemies, ai, level structuring etc, which now that i notice as i'm typing this up you already addressed- and  possibly a few posts regarding an actual endgame type simulation.  A good few of us would like raid bosses.  so by all means type em up.  I myself am just trying to make our current bosses more fun and work them into an endgame boss solution.

 

As per your random event generator, I personally believe for it to work it needs to happen before your main objective.  My favorite instance and example of how it shouldn't be is Hyena.  Many times people will kill hyena, all just to go off and collect 4 data terminals before finishing.  From what i understand many people just quit.  if its done the other way around, then people will see it through to the end, but that's just my thoughts.

 

Next raid boss unit : maybe mighty morphin power corpus crewmen?

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Thanks for your input and feedback, I needed some time to answer your post, to be able to read your links and such.

 

And of course i believe this is a proper place to share your bosses ideas :D :3, it's a main point in OP as also the idea of raid bosses for the endgame part.

 

About the title, i think it pretty much covers the whole idea.... it states two of the main important points that the game needs (endgame and challenge/skill based gameplay) and after that a question inviting to what we would like Warframe to become in the near future.

 

 

Anyways, you weren't kidding about the taboo.. you even threw a third link inside those xD. For related ideas, it's always best to keep them in one thread instead of having the reader bouncing back and forth to get to the point (just a suggestion). And if it's too long ,you can organize it with colors, lists and spoiler tags to avoid overwhelming the reader.

About the ideas, i think some add a positive input for the game, since as i mentioned in OP and many have brought up along the thread.... missions lack change of pace, any kind of context and/or story/plot progression. It's just a random collection of dots among an unfriendly and cold planet map UI.

 

I'll link your entry in the OP.

Also, if you are interested mostly in the mission discussion, there's a whole section about it in OP (if you haven't already read it) and also a thread from Boatsniper linked in the suggestion threads list, talking about mission depth

[KARMA2605]

And if it's too long ,you can organize it with colors, lists and spoiler tags to avoid overwhelming the reader.

 

Yeah, live and learn right?  Anyway, how do you use the spoiler tags?  I'm (obviously) a bit of a noob on the forums and have not learned that feature.

[Eisvogel]

Yeah, live and learn right?  Anyway, how do you use the spoiler tags?  I'm (obviously) a bit of a noob on the forums and have not learned that feature.

 

Don't worry, for spoiler tags => [_spoiler] [_/spoiler] 

(without the "_")

 

 

 

Edit: Here's a link with a list of useful codes (http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/misc.php?do=bbcode).... but let me warn you, not all of those will be supported anywhere.... in the case of WF forums, the way it works is one of the least pleasant among forums for BB codes, so some may not work.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Eisvogel

[KARMA2605]

Okay so here are some ideas regarding specifics for Boss fights.

 

@Eisvogel, thanks for info on forum codes.  Trying them here.

 

First I think there a few things that need to be put into all Boss Fights to help make them more interesting.  Warning, a bit of a wall of text in this next part.

 

- first off I'd "close off" Boss rooms, or put them into lockdown, whatever.  If it seems necessary to have enemy units joining the fight midway, use mechanicals like Vor's.  I think this will help prevent "easy tactics" like kiting Tyl Regor out of a room and down hallways while he can't catch you.  This shouldn't cause griefing from rushers, as Boss fights (usually?) don't start until all Players are present

- if enemy units are going to part of the Boss fight, or are there to make it more interesting, don't have them start in the room in such a way that they can all be eliminated before the Boss fight even starts

- if enemy units are going to part of the Boss fight (and they should IMO) then use units that allow for synergy with the Boss tactics

- absolutely include two types of programming: a) if x seconds have passed and no player has taken damage, Boss should switch tactics (eg fighting Vor, he uses Beam attack, you hide behind pipe so it doesn't hit you but you can hit him, x seconds go by, he teleports to new position behind you and does something different like drop Tesla's) b) if x seconds go by and Boss has not attacked or moved (from stun lock or Bastille, etc) use a "Get out of Jail" ability such as a ground stomp or teleporting away

- another thread (which I'll try and track down to give a link) mentioned about giving Boss' more abilities but making them rotate from match to match so you never quite knew what you were getting;  maybe rather than that, put the abilities in a different priority order akin to what you can do with Sentinels.  Unfortunately since several Boss' go through stages, this might not work.

 

On the topic of unpredictability, I say we use the idea in this thread of random events and occasionally toss them into the Boss fights.  Imagine in the middle of a fight getting the "ship unstable" message for example.  What's that Lotus?  Another Tenno cell blew the reactor on this base?  Those bastards!  I guess we better hurry.  What's that Lotus?  This fight with the Boss has damaged enough equipment that flaming debris on the ground appears and we have to watch out for it?  I knew Shred was good, but maybe I should have checked my fire.  Little tweaks like that are using mechanics already in the game, so it shouldn't be hard to implement.  I think it could add unpredictability to Boss fights, but as mentioned by someone else when discussing similar ideas - it would either have to be carefully balanced, or made as a toggle feature.

 

If interested, below are some specific ideas on specific Boss fights in point form.

 

Captain Vor

 

- keep mostly them same

- possibly add a slow effect to his "Tesla" balls to make them more deadly, yet use them less

- when Vor fight starts, he immediately teleports a unit of Elite Shield Lancers in; the Shield Lancers should have the tasking of corralling the Player(s) so Vor can dispatch them more easily.

- since Vor's big catch is he can teleport, and already teleports units in when he goes into recharge, allow him to teleport allied units into more advantageous positions (likely one or two at a time); imagine your ducking out of the way of Vor's beam attack, he's not hitting you he realizes so he teleports a Shield Lancer or two near and behind you to help coral you; conversely, you could Vor's teleport to be Switch Teleport and have been summon Shield Lancers to himself, then Switch Teleport you into a pack of them and then laugh at you as you are clubbed :P

- and lastly, instead of having his speed bump regen moments replace the invulnerability bubble with an effect more like Mag's Shield Polarize.  At the same health levels, he pops off Polarize which drains the Player shields say 75% and directly adds that same amount to his own (capped at x; this also means that he is only gaining in direct correlation to the player level(s) he is facing); during this phase he is temporarily invulnerable until his Shields get their gain; during this phase the Players are temporarily slowed or maybe even stunned (that is a dangerous game I know, Players hate being unable to act but really what is the point of a shield recharge if it's gone the moment he gets it?); and instead of staying in his bubble of invulnerability, he still teleports allied units in and continues to immediately fight; the allied units he teleports in are mostly more Shield Lancers and they teleport in a wider circle around Vor, hopefully wide enough that they are behind and surrounding the Player(s)

 

Jackal

- I've fought Jackal a lot, I can't honestly even say I remember that he has Missiles and Sticky Grenades (according to the Wiki); if those are still there, they need to be dialed up in terms of usage

- Jackal's big weakness is that he is slow and easily flanked or even circle strafed, so change his Grenades to give a Slow effect rather than all damage; "Slowed" targets should be given priority in the aggro system

- Jackal should use a Missile Barrage to target flanking enemies; for example, if using my programming idea of no Player damage has been dealt in last few seconds, pop a Missile Barrage because they are likely moving in strafes too fast for Jackal to keep up

- if using the idea above, perhaps the Missiles should cause a knockdown, allowing Jackal time to catch up; the missiles should be completely avoidable however if say using a quick roll in any direction (giving roll an actual use) or by being invisible or quickly teleporting away

- have Jackal use his Shockwave knockback every time he "recovers" to prevent stun locking or melee spamming

- the Mine Ospreys again should have better programming to try and coral the Player(s) towards Jackal 

 

Vay Hek

- so Hek is supposed to be an assassin I guess, and nothing screams assassin like a shotgun (?!); however if DE wants to keep the assassin/hit-and-run theme then Hek needs some abilities to help with that

- Hek apparently has decoys, I always assumed he just was summoning in shotgun Lancers; change this ability to work more like DnD's Mirror Image; for those not in the know, basically Hek projects 2-4 Decoys of himself that do no damage and take only a few or one hit to kill but uses the distraction to reposition or wrack up damage

- give him an ability like Radial Blind, where it distorts the Player's screen similar to Disruption Ancients making it very difficult (tho not impossible) to aim for a short duration; again Hek can use this time to wrack up damage or reposition

- since Hek uses a Hek shotgun (which only makes sense given his name), he needs a way to either close the distance with the Player(s) or bring the Player(s) to him; either give him a Teleport like Vor's (not my first choice), give him a Pull like Mag's (a little better), or have a unit of Scorpions zipline down from the ceiling (or something) to surround him, and then proceed to pull you towards Hek

 

Nef Anyo

- Nef's big ability is to go invisible; add in the ability to summon a Decoy like Loki while invisible occasionally; Nef is a sniper, so let him summon a Decoy so he can line up his kill shot; player's would have to wonder occasionally, is that him or the decoy?; if feeling generous, give the Decoy a color or other visual clue

- Nef should always be able to find invisible targets, the theme on being a sniper should allow for excellent target recognition

- either give him a Teleport (again I don't want to overuse that) or make it when he goes Invisible the first priority is to relocate; a sniper should want to keep distance between themselves and their target(s); to many Nef fights have been about stun locking him while he is invisible leaving him no recourse but to melee back

- Railgun MOA's would make the most sense as an Elite Guard, but I'm pretty sure they aren't seen by the time you fight Nef

- what would be really neat is that because Nef is ostensibly selling Tenno or artifacts or whatever, occasionally give him an additional mini-boss that would represent "the buyer"; you could make it a buffed up Corpus Tech, or maybe even a scaled down other Boss that disappears once at 50% health or some such

 

Tyl Regor

- maybe one of the more unique Bosses in that he uses melee; really play up to this

- this should be a drag down, whiskey bottle flinging, table flipping, bar brawl; either fantastically increase his mobility/speed (he is after all likely genetically modified based on the research he conducts) or make a new map that is closed in and cramped

- add an ability similar to Radial Disarm, after all would Tyl not want the Tenno to face him on even footing; it shouldn't last too long nor be used all the time, but it adds a different dynamic to this fight

- give him an ability like Super Jump to get out of trouble, maybe combine it with Heavy Impact or some such (again playing into the fact he is likely genetically modified)

- make his Elite Guard all melee types as well

- perhaps change his Slash Dash to more of a Rhino Charge (since Stalker already uses Slash Dash), complete with a knockdown effect

 

Those are just a few examples.

 

Making these fights more unique and more challenging of course would require the Bosses to be rebalanced in terms of hit points, damage mitigation, and damage output.  The challenge, as Eisvogel and others have said numerous times, should be in maneuvers and tactics needed to beat the Boss rather than the sheer DPS.  Giving Boss' better movement and more "outs" that aren't speed bumps and invulnerability phases will reduce the stand and deliver (or power combo for insta-kill) mentality of most Boss fights I believe.

 

 

tl:dr - use better AI programming, better use of enemy units as "elite guards", and possibly throw some random events into Boss fights to make them less "Sleepwalkish" and less exploitable

 

Maybe as a reward, since trying to do these more challenging fights would really frustrate farming BP drops the RNG drop rate could be increased.  I'd rather do 10 challenging runs that took a half hour each, then 50-150 boring runs done in 5-10 minutes. 

 

What do you guys think?

Edited September 13, 2013 by KARMA2605

[Eisvogel]

oh wow, give me some time to read it and let me get back to you on that :3

[r3dzer0]

Sooooo anyone else see vids of new j2000 golem? fun looking fight..... but as one said grinding to grind to grind?

 

the boss is more of what we need.  what we don't need however is grinding to get a key to get a key to get a chance at dropping new frame parts.

 

it seems like they took notionphils idea to the extreme...... as unfortunate as that may be.  It seems the challenge that is to be pursued is the grand grind :(

[Eisvogel]

yes.... as most of the update... it's a fiasco

 

Also, i fought golem........ we killed his two phases in about... 2m....... sad.... very sad.... It looks big and mean..... but that's about everything :P

[Shifty_Shuffler]

I doubt we will see any end game for a long time. Every livestream they say the same old stuff of not expecting people to play as many hours as they do, and then swiftly move onto the next topic.

 

It seems that they have no idea what to do, even though some great suggestions have been brought up. I know that they are working on Armor 2.0 and that is a very good thing has they need to get the core mechanics to be solid before moving on, so I guess the next step after that will hopefully be an AI overhaul.

 

If they are suggesting that the new Golem is end game stuff then that is a sad day for Warframe. I want this game to be good, I really do, but I am playing less and less. U10 sparked my interest for about an hour, maybe less.

 

By the sounds though, they aren't that bothered about us vets, as they seem to concentrating on hooking the new players, which makes sense with the imminent release of the PS4 version. I would just love to hear something from them about some ideas they might have, just a glimmer of hope. Farming for farmings sake is not end game.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Shifty_Shuffler

[KitMan1973]

We need to fix and update the existing game before we focus on End-Game. The Orokin Derelict set is an example; it was meant to go on Jupiter with the new J2000 Golem replacing the old J3 this would have been new content which over wrote old, dull, content. But instead we got more 'End-game' and Jupiter will remain for ever dull and repetitive.

[KARMA2605]

Come on now guys, it's not that bad.  I know we were expecting a quantum leap, but I for one was encourage by a lot of what I saw. 

 

From a map design standpoint, they did things the "rightish" way - take existing content and change it from an artistic perspective (using up the time of the art team yet not the programmers).  It also made sense from their direction story wise. I loved the map sets, we took a lot of time exploring them.

 

The new Golem has multiple components to the fight.  Several different ways it could attack you, mooks running around that could disrupt your pattern, abilities that should* require most players to stick and move, and a fight in whole that normally requires differing skill sets.  That all said, I'm sure you noticed a lot of "should's" and "usually's".  That is because DE has opening stated they are still trying to figure out exactly how to counter or balance things towards "power gamers".  While that word is usually used with a sense of distate, things like the warframewiki make the mathing in this game even easier to figure out and as a result a large percent of the population will be much too powerful for balanced content.

 

My group went in with a 15 Nekros, a not quite "kitted out" 28 Trinity (so I could help keep my Nekros alive) and an maxed out Nova (mostly to use his Teleport to really explore the map).  It was about an 8 minute fight for us, give or take.  We had fun, it was "challenging", we each went down at least once.  Now my group are not noobs, we know all about how to do speed runs and maximum damage and all that.  I'm sure with the "right" frames that fight could be quite a bit easier.  My point is that it is a step in the right direction rather than a bullet sponge that stands and delivers.  There are multiple components to the fight, there are patterns that you need to discern to help kill it and to avoid it killing you.  Perhaps the biggest problem is that it does feel like the maybe the second actual effort by DE to put in a Boss fight requiring more than firepower (Vor felt like a very early attempt, and as such has very obvious design flaws).

 

Lastly, in regards to this whole "Grindception" thing: it took us one good map of exploring to get all of our beacons to make an assassin key.  In the assassin mission, each of the three of us found enough beacons to make another three assassin keys.  So know we're able to start a pattern wherein we should always have an assassin key available after these next three are made (based on the 3 hour build time, and the fact we don't blitz maps). In fact, there really appears to be no reason (other than to play until the shiny "new" smell wears off) the other new missions.  They don't seem to have unique loot drops, the Defense in particular doesn't appear to drop high end loot.  We won't need to go there to find assassin beacons for keys unless we start doing speed runs and don't find enough beacons in three combined runs to build one more each.  We will play them because the maps look great and feel good, but eventually that will wear off too.  But under no circumstances should we ever need to "grind" them.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

 

 

-snip-

 

Kit... you really think the new golem is endgame? I am building the parts for nekros already....... let me tell you exactly what i did..... i stood there, completely still, without moving during the whole two phases...... i just unleashed despair fury to his weakspots, use rhino stomp (timed precisely for exposure) and nova's prime to maximize efficiency if you want to do it even faster. I literally did not move during the whole fight.... you want to know how much time we did those 2 phases? 54s.... yep, that's right, less than a minute to annihilate this new "end-game" boss you speak of :P.... and without even moving from my position xD. Also, i am already done with it... got my nekros parts and don't have a reason to even bother with the key's fiasco they made.

 

 

About the veteran players and such, the game is very much new player unfriendly. Most of the people i invited to play Warframe.... i'd estimate a rough 90-94% resigned almost immediately..... some after seeing the UI and tutorial, just decided that it wasn't worth the trouble..... and the rest pulled the plug before even 10hs.

 

And about what kit said of updates and such, how longer do you want to keep adding content that doesn't end up adding much to the game.... it's more of the same.... and neglect addressing the key factors that make a game survive after release? I mean, if they are already highlighting the release for november.... i don't see how they will address anything at all honestly.

 

Just as shifty said, if you suggest this 54s new golem is end content.... where the only way he can kill someone is poisoning everything (for no apparent reason) and catch someone with a bit of lag to die in there..... it will be a sad very sad day, and probably the end of what could have possibly be a great game.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Eisvogel

[r3dzer0]

Yeah i haven't had a chance to get the parts yet. my net or steam/warframe has been wonky and keeps dropping me from matches.... real fun right?  I have high hopes for the idea of the golem.  Standing in place as rhino seems fairly standard tho.  and atleast it took almost a whole minute to kill him instead of what, 10-20 depending on who it is? 

 

It is sad that they aren't even attempting to throw bones at people that are well established in the game, it truly is.  New people would soldier through if they knew that there was awesome stuff to do.  Take me for example, WoW has fun endgame content, I soloed to get to the level of endgame content.  if that promise of it gets more fun at the end wasn't there i would have rage quitted long before i did(would have also saved me a ton of cash >.>).

 

If they can revamp it a bit, add a bit more hp, make it more mobile and deadly so no one can just sit still, immune to slows and stuns, but not to damage debuffs.  you know make it more dynamic it might end up being better.  

 

at the very least, nekros hasn't been farmed a 10000000 times already, even though his skills look like absolute trash ..... ( was gonna save a slot for him, and i'm very decided not to)

In the end, atleast its a step in the right direction.  we can only hope that they actually add story( which is the bit that pisses me off more) to the derelicts. and a reason to go fight this nightmarish looking creature