Change Grineer From Hitscan To True Ballistics

[Bakercompany86]

The more I play against Grineer, the more I wonder why they were implemented with hitscan weaponry.

 

 

If you are unfamiliar with the term hitscan, here is a link that will help you:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitscan

 

 

Why do I have a problem with Grineer hitscan weaponry in Warframe?  In a game about agility, parkour, and dodging, their hitscan removes a large chunk of that gameplay.

 

When you're running at high speeds, jumping and dodging along the way, the Grineer still have no problem hitting you.

 

 

When you're playing against Corpus, they have true ballistics and you have the ability to dodge their fire.  I feel like the Grineer mostly remove this option, and require us to move from cover to cover.  Which according to a large chunk of this fanbase, is an undesirable gameplay mechanic. (see any discussion of cover mechanics and slowing down gameplay).

 

In Grineer missions I find it frequently necessary to hide around walls and pop out to take shots.  Even then, you are still struck by their gun fire.

 

The coding already exists in this game (the corpus and many of our weapons use true ballistics).  So it's a copy/paste with some simple modifications to code.

 

Even some of the Grineer units already have true ballistic gunfire.

 

Just my opinion, but I think Grineer missions would be much more entertaining and fun to play without their hitscan weaponry.  Yes you can program hitscan to simulate actual bullet travel.  However, the Grineer seem to have instantaneous bullet travel with no delay what so ever.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Destro6677]

+1

[JerichoFayne]

Either that....or build an avoidance mechanic in to wall running, rolling, and sliding, such that weapons have a chance to miss.

[porkabakin11]

With knowing how fast Bullets actually travel it is not much different from hitscan. Corpus use lasers/plasma which are super slow, it does not even make sense for bullets to travel that slow. This counts as nerfing the Grineer. I think that would honestly make them too easy considering we move all the time when we shoot. Grinner have hitscan because there guns do little damage compared to the dera, or any other lasery gun in the game. Setting aside the gorgon, I like the heavies as they are. And the grineer are fine.

Edited August 12, 2013 by porkabakin11

[CaptainohCaptain]

No, they are weak already. Somewhat annoying, yeah, but weak.

Not to mention that evasion is sick. What are you, The Chosen One?

[Darkwave1098]

With knowing how fast Bullets actually travel it is not much different from hitscan. Corpus use lasers/plasma which are super slow, it does not even make sense for bullets to travel that slow. This counts as nerfing the Grineer. I think that would honestly make them too easy considering we move all the time when we shoot. Grinner have hitscan because there guns do little damage compared to the dera, or any other lasery gun in the game. Setting aside the gorgon, I like the heavies as they are. And the grineer are fine.

 

Elite Grineer Lancer would like to have a word.

[CaptainohCaptain]

Elite Grineer Lancer would like to have a word.

With base damage of five per bullet? Seriously?

[Bakercompany86]

With knowing how fast Bullets actually travel it is not much different from hitscan. Corpus use lasers/plasma which are super slow, it does not even make sense for bullets to travel that slow. This counts as nerfing the Grineer. I think that would honestly make them too easy considering we move all the time when we shoot. Grinner have hitscan because there guns do little damage compared to the dera, or any other lasery gun in the game. Setting aside the gorgon, I like the heavies as they are. And the grineer are fine.

 

You can change projectile speed to match that of real bullet travel.  If you've ever fired a weapon at around 100 yards (roughly the size of the larger Grineer rooms) even with a high speed projectile like 5.56 or 7.62 there is a noticeable delay in travel from the time you pull the trigger to the time you hit your target.

 

Right now their bullet travel time is instantaneous.  If they were to fire at your body while you're moving in a horizontal line at full speed at any distance past 45 yards or so, they would miss.

 

Unfortunately their current mechanics preclude any sort of dodging we might try.  To me, it goes against the very principle of this game.

 

You can certainly keep their projectile speed high enough to simulate real bullets.  I would like for some chance to dodge it, being that this game is about speed and dodging.

 

Great input both for and against this idea guys, thank you.

[CaptainohCaptain]

You can change projectile speed to match that of real bullet travel.  If you've ever fired a weapon at around 100 yards (roughly the size of the larger Grineer rooms) even with a high speed projectile like 5.56 or 7.62 there is a noticeable delay in travel from the time you pull the trigger to the time you hit your target.

 

Right now their bullet travel time is instantaneous.  If they were to fire at your body while you're moving in a horizontal line at full speed at any distance past 45 yards or so, they would miss.

 

Unfortunately their current mechanics preclude any sort of dodging we might try.  To me, it goes against the very principle of this game.

 

You can certainly keep their projectile speed high enough to simulate real bullets.  I would like for some chance to dodge it, being that this game is about speed and dodging.

 

Great input both for and against this idea guys, thank you.

0.15-0.17 sec? Yeah, blue ultrasonic hedgehog territory.

[Bakercompany86]

0.15-0.17 sec? Yeah, blue ultrasonic hedgehog territory.

 

So you agree, there is a delay =)

[Eant]

No, they are weak already. Somewhat annoying, yeah, but weak.

Not to mention that evasion is sick. What are you, The Chosen One?

 

Travel time could be compensated with slightly increased damage per hit.

[Bakercompany86]

Travel time could be compensated with slightly increased damage per hit.

 

There are plenty of things available to balance the mechanic change.

 

But faster than light bullet travel doesn't allow for the ninja-dodgy Tenno to dodge.  Goes against this games core principles if you ask me.

[TheHeraldXII]

About the inability to dodge, that's only true to an extent. The way the mechanics work are that the longer you stay in their field of vision the more accurate they become. If you stand around for too long instead of actually staying mobile you get ripped to shreds. Hopping from cover to cover and breaking line of sight repeatedly makes them stormtrooper levels of inaccurate effectively allowing you to dodge their "undodgable" bullets.

Dodging a bullet is mostly about not being where the enemy is aiming when they fire and the way Grineer aim supports a mobile playstyle better than most people are implying. None of how the Grineer work goes against the core gameplay and letting simply moving be the answer to all gunfire is, in my opinion, a bad move. Tactical mobility should be supported more than simply moving for the sake of it.

As for constructive ideas, having parkour moves decrease enemy accuracy, perhaps by resetting it to the default level when you start a parkour trick, could make the fancier movement tricks more appealing.

Edited August 12, 2013 by TheHeraldXII

[Bakercompany86]

About the inability to dodge, that's only true to an extent. The way the mechanics work are that the longer you stay in their field of vision the more accurate they become. If you stand around for too long instead of actually staying mobile you get ripped to shreds. Hopping from cover to cover and breaking line of sight repeatedly makes them stormtrooper levels of inaccurate effectively allowing you to dodge their "undodgable" bullets.

Dodging a bullet is mostly about not being where the enemy is aiming when they fire and the way Grineer aim supports a mobile playstyle better than most people are implying. None of how the Grineer work goes against the core gameplay and letting simply moving be the answer to all gunfire is, in my opinion, a bad move. Tactical mobility should be supported more than simply moving for the sake of it.

As for constructive ideas, having parkour moves decrease enemy accuracy, perhaps by resetting it to the default level when you start a parkour trick, could make the fancier movement tricks more appealing.

 

 

Works for me =)

 

Just wonder why they went with a hybrid hitscan/ballistics game.  Seems like a lot of unnecessary programming.  Use one or the other and alter accordingly.

 

Personally instead of all of these work arounds, I would rather just see hitscan removed.

[Pekku]

Just make it so that they have some sort of damage drop off at longer ranges. 

[General-Griffin]

About the inability to dodge, that's only true to an extent. The way the mechanics work are that the longer you stay in their field of vision the more accurate they become. If you stand around for too long instead of actually staying mobile you get ripped to shreds. Hopping from cover to cover and breaking line of sight repeatedly makes them stormtrooper levels of inaccurate effectively allowing you to dodge their "undodgable" bullets.

Dodging a bullet is mostly about not being where the enemy is aiming when they fire and the way Grineer aim supports a mobile playstyle better than most people are implying. None of how the Grineer work goes against the core gameplay and letting simply moving be the answer to all gunfire is, in my opinion, a bad move. Tactical mobility should be supported more than simply moving for the sake of it.

As for constructive ideas, having parkour moves decrease enemy accuracy, perhaps by resetting it to the default level when you start a parkour trick, could make the fancier movement tricks more appealing.

Yea it would work but it would kind of feel like a cheap knock off when compared with just having even a minute delay. I always hated in games where rolling meant an instant dodge no matter how close or far you are. Just my two cents.

[gell]

I would rather they kept it as now, which is more or less consistent with how a player aims. Don't give them a special rule set.

 

What they need to do is give the AI virtual controls, similar to Unreal Tournament or TF2. Bots use controls to move and aim, and they track players using those same rules. That way no bot will ever aimbot. Part of the issue is that the AI always knows where you are when they are alerted. They're code is obviously obfuscating t his a little by making them wander when they are at your coordinates (easily tested by using invisibility, moving around, and watching everyone follow you around even though you can't be seen). Once they get rid of that lock onto your coordinates in realtime, and just base their actions off your last known position and trajectory, they will be way more believable and feel fair. Using most of our ninja moves will naturally mess up their aim, as they might vs a human player. (That means I echo General-Griffin above, that dodges shouldn't add any inherent chance to miss or dodge, but rather the sudden movement, working in conjunction with their tracking code, would naturally be more prone to miss during most of your ninja moves.)

 

But who knows if DE will ever change it.

Edited August 12, 2013 by gell

[taiiat]

Either that....or build an avoidance mechanic in to wall running, rolling, and sliding, such that weapons have a chance to miss.

that could also work.

 

 

With knowing how fast Bullets actually travel it is not much different from hitscan. Corpus use lasers/plasma which are super slow, it does not even make sense for bullets to travel that slow. This counts as nerfing the Grineer. I think that would honestly make them too easy considering we move all the time when we shoot. Grinner have hitscan because there guns do little damage compared to the dera, or any other lasery gun in the game. Setting aside the gorgon, I like the heavies as they are. And the grineer are fine.

if this was to be changed, i wouldn't want it much slower travel time than it is now, but having a little bit of travel time may iron out some problems with ping and lag related issues. that's probably the issues people are experiencing actually are due to. enemies that the player cannot see (left the room or some S#&$), yet the host still says there's LOS, so the grineer keeps dealing damage, etc. 

a little bit of travel time might actually remedy this. 

so we're indirectly improving another part of the game, which in turn fixes the problem ;)

[The_Markie]

I'm not against this, I'll be actually pretty glad if they polish one of the biggest piece of Warframe, the gun mechanics. But...

 

The problem is, I think, when we create extremely fast bullets to replace the hitscan weapons (which forces all weapons to change their mechanics), see how buggy and crazy that thing is. Thousands of bullets flying in an usual Endless Defense mission, that'll be a hard thing to optimize. Regarding the fact that the game is based on matchmaking, which has enough connectivity problem as it is. Implementing this may not be a good move, because even with the current hitscan mechanics, we've already had problems with hit registration.

 

Also consider the fact that we have more mobility over the Grineer, which makes it even harder for them to hit us. So it's a straight nerf.

[cary2010haha1]

Move laterally....and grineer never get me, also, all AI in WF can't hit anything "Move laterally",  dethcube to heavygunner to all boss use guns...

 

 

hitscan or not is not important because it never "never" ""never"" aim fast enough to anything "Move laterally", they just aim behind the target, if the target never stop or rush direct to AI, AI never get it....

 

 

coding problem, increase AI aim speed plz, to 0.1 second or less

[porkabakin11]

You can change projectile speed to match that of real bullet travel.  If you've ever fired a weapon at around 100 yards (roughly the size of the larger Grineer rooms) even with a high speed projectile like 5.56 or 7.62 there is a noticeable delay in travel from the time you pull the trigger to the time you hit your target.

 

Right now their bullet travel time is instantaneous.  If they were to fire at your body while you're moving in a horizontal line at full speed at any distance past 45 yards or so, they would miss.

 

Unfortunately their current mechanics preclude any sort of dodging we might try.  To me, it goes against the very principle of this game.

 

You can certainly keep their projectile speed high enough to simulate real bullets.  I would like for some chance to dodge it, being that this game is about speed and dodging.

 

Great input both for and against this idea guys, thank you.

Yes but grineer will never get a shot at 100 yards because their AI doesnt agro on you at that range. The ultimate reason is that they are to easy already, dont make them easier. 

[Bakercompany86]

Yes but grineer will never get a shot at 100 yards because their AI doesnt agro on you at that range. The ultimate reason is that they are to easy already, dont make them easier. 

 

There are ways to compensate for the change, I don't want a straight nerf.

 

 

Think about it.  You're sprinting through a level (for whatever reason) running past multiple Grineer.  Doesn't matter how far you get, they will still be shooting you.  

 

This is more to reward players who actively dodge and use parkour for evasion (what this game is about).

 

You can easily change certain things to make this not a straight nerf.

 

 

Anyway, it will probably never happen.  Just trying to make parkour and skilled evasion more rewarding.

[Hayden11121]

With knowing how fast Bullets actually travel it is not much different from hitscan. Corpus use lasers/plasma which are super slow, it does not even make sense for bullets to travel that slow. This counts as nerfing the Grineer. I think that would honestly make them too easy considering we move all the time when we shoot. Grinner have hitscan because there guns do little damage compared to the dera, or any other lasery gun in the game. Setting aside the gorgon, I like the heavies as they are. And the grineer are fine.

Grineer are the only faction who players have not gone ot very high defense with.

 

 

Why? They have Shockwaves, AoE, Homing Missiles, Flamethrowers, Rollers, Scorpions, Latchers.

 

 

What do infested have?

Exploder, Runner, Ancient.

 

 

Nerfing a race which obviously has a superior advantage to the other races wouldn't be bad, especially in the case like this.

[Sni7ch]