R3Leaz's (Possibly Final) Feedback.

[R3leaZ]

Mechanic isn't BROKEN just because you don't like it.  Some weapons have advantages and some have disadvantages.  Pretty normal to have trade offs.

 

You know that ALL enemies' armor scale don't you? With exception of light grineer and light infested. Infested Chargers have armor, Ancients have massive armor, Medium Grineer have a lot of armor, Heavy Grineer have armor, Corpus boxheads have light armor on their bodies that still scales drastically at high levels.

 

Currently the AP mod is a necessity like the most important mod in the game due to how armor scaling works. Same goes for AP/AI weapons: Kunai, Bolto series, Despair, Snipetron Vandal, Boltor, Acrid. Also about power creeps.

 

"Warframe/Gun X is over(or under)-powered! (Why did you nerf? Why did you boost?):

We are rolling out balance changes very quickly. We love the feedback (good and bad) and take it very seriously. Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - source: FAQ

 

This could also have been maintained a lot more easier if armor didn't scale.

 

 

Look at those numbers.

 

You reference min/maxers.  There are some of those.  If you read a lot of the forums you'll find MANY people play with what's fun.  How many people use Paris when there are other weapons like Ogris for Flux that can kill more faster?  Plenty.

 

Ogris and Flux.... are Mastery Rank 6 and above... and the reason they use those other weapons is mainly for the mastery so you can level up. This game is a grindfest. Also: Slots. F2P players have a lot of restrictions with that and it hinders progress big time.

 

 

Prime weapons are rewards from an often more difficult set of missions and not as easy to farm as boss runs.  Isn't it fair they have their own advantages?  It doesn't make anything obsolete unless you are in fact a min/maxer.

 

Yes, a system purely based on RNG. I got my full Latron Prime on the 4th try doing Void (Luck?). RNG is really random and it can cause a lot of hate. Fair to have their own advantages? Like what? If they were straight upgrade skins I would be fine with it. Since you would still need to require the base weapon. But a seperate weapon that is a straight upgrade making the old weapons outdated and a lot less effective vs the Prime weapons? No.

 

Skins are good since you still require the base weapon to have it. But current system is not. It is different with the Braton Vandal which is a side grade from the regular Braton: It has no better points at all so it can stay a limited edition seperate weapon like that. This is not an MMORPG. This is a 3rd person shooter, MMORPG like mechanics don't really fit well into this game since this game mainly attracts players that come from a shooter background.

 

You retort my opinion with an opinion??  "most important to keep the game alive for a long time" is clearly an opinion.  Battlefield is a war game.  Single player and multiplayer killing.  It wasn't designed to be a team-oriented goal based game.  Warframe combines multiplayer with the "single player" experience of goal based missions that end when the goal is achieved.  You could argue blah blah blah, but the games are very different in nature.

 

Clearly an opinion? Yes it's an opinion but that opinion was created based on research and calculations. It keeps the game alive longer and people almost always stay longer playing the game due to PvP. Because fighting players is a complete different experience each time and the learning curve is steep vs PvE. It's a complete new set of challenges because the way the enemies behave is completely different from the oh so predictable AI. This is not restricted to Battlefield 3 only. It's with a lot of games which have a good working integrated PvP. You even have a lot of players staying in those games for over 2-4 years and the reason they give why they stuck so long to that game is.... PvP. The game itself, the PvE features don't last as long. Grinding, farming all of that stuff don't provide much challenge. It will get boring really fast especially for players who are used to PvP. And that is the biggest part of the "players who are used to shooters"

 

You can't seriously expect Warframe players to ONLY play Warframe.  if you feel like sports, pop in some Madden.  If you want PVP, play WoW or Battlefield.  If you want to play a 4 player coop space ninja game, play Warframe.

 

No, ofcourse not. But it would help the game a lot more if players instead of searching for other games that have PvP stick with the own game's PvP. PvP is a necessity to keeping games alive a lot longer. That is both an opinion of me but it's based on calculations. Yes I am asking for something big, it's because that can be a great investment into the game if it is implemented right. Sure it takes a lot of resources. But who says it needs to be implemented right now?

 

I express discontent with the way the game currently is going. The lack of focus on broken mechanics, bugs and the glitches that have stuck for a long time. Graphics department is still messed up with settings glitching out and resetting while in-game. Also the ridiculous settings like bloom that almost never gets used at all and HDR that doesn't even function at all atm. Stupid AI that bugs out very often. I either prefered if they focused on fixing that. But PvP was just an idea.

 

Lacking something simple. Yes it was an understatement. I actually meant "Lacking something that's a necessity" I'm not a native English speaker. I have trouble finding out how to say certain stuff. But this is one of the good ways how to implement PvP. There are a lot of bad ways to implement PvP and I tried to base my ideas from a game I used to play a lot back in the day: Tribes 2. It's a fast paced game that needed a lot of cooperation, skill and it had different classes in it.

 

They are doing a lot yes. But they shouldn't focus on new features each time. They should just focus on fixing the current features and the balancing issues.

Edited August 13, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Bakercompany86]

Funny thing is what Cyrosage said is what *should* be implemented but isn't.

 

Weapons should have trade offs.  Faster firing rate and more damage, with slower reload and less accuracy, etc.

 

The problem is it's all irrelevant.  You simply dump as much damage into your weapon as possible in order to succeed.

 

 

This game needs more horizontal progression, period.  Right now there is none.  It's up your %'s, or don't play.

[R3leaZ]

Funny thing is what Cyrosage said is what *should* be implemented but isn't.

 

Weapons should have trade offs.  Faster firing rate and more damage, with slower reload and less accuracy, etc.

 

The problem is it's all irrelevant.  You simply dump as much damage into your weapon as possible in order to succeed.

 

 

This game needs more horizontal progression, period.  Right now there is none.  It's up your %'s, or don't play.

 

"Warframe/Gun X is over(or under)-powered! (Why did you nerf? Why did you boost?)

We are rolling out balance changes very quickly. We love the feedback (good and bad) and take it very seriously. Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - Source: FAQ.

 

It's the main reason why I don't like the route this is going. They are diverting from what they said here and are now releasing overpowered mods, power creeps and a lot of unbalanced stuff.

 

Currently everyone obviously is going for damage builds only. It's quite a big problem. I'm pretty sure they took away all my mods during U7 because they wanted to change that route of taking only one superior build setup. But now the exact same is happening allover again.

[Bakercompany86]

 

"Warframe/Gun X is over(or under)-powered! (Why did you nerf? Why did you boost?)

We are rolling out balance changes very quickly. We love the feedback (good and bad) and take it very seriously. Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - Source: FAQ.

 

It's the main reason why I don't like the route this is going. They are diverting from what they said here and are now releasing overpowered mods, power creeps and a lot of unbalanced stuff.

 

Currently everyone obviously is going for damage builds only. It's quite a big problem. I'm pretty sure they took away all my mods during U7 because they wanted to change that route of taking only one superior build setup. But now the exact same is happening allover again.

 

 

 

See and I said all of that before I even knew that horizontal progression was their original vision. (suck it, guy who told me otherwise)

 

 

Horizontal progression with better enemy scaling will save this game.  Coupled with some new innovative ideas I've seen floating around this thread, it's still capable of becoming that amazing game that's as much of a success as Planetside 2, for example.

[jibbahjabbah]

TL;DR  Some want PVP.  Some don't.  Some don't care.  PVP might suck and ruin game.  PVP might rock but will take resources from main game and people already complain constantly about the main game.  Stakes are too high for PVE F2P game.

 

Don't have anything to add to the topic but felt the need to say that I like the cut of you jib Cyro. After reading post after post of people failing to distinguish that what's good for them is not the same thing as what's good for the game your posts have been rather refreshing. Kudos to you good sir.

[Cyrosage]

You know that ALL enemies' armor scale don't you? With exception of light grineer and light infested. Infested Chargers have armor, Ancients have massive armor, Medium Grineer have a lot of armor, Heavy Grineer have armor, Corpus boxheads have light armor on their bodies that still scales drastically at high levels.

 

Currently the AP mod is a necessity like the most important mod in the game due to how armor scaling works. Same goes for AP/AI weapons: Kunai, Bolto series, Despair, Snipetron Vandal, Boltor, Acrid. Also about power creeps.

 

"Warframe/Gun X is over(or under)-powered! (Why did you nerf? Why did you boost?):

We are rolling out balance changes very quickly. We love the feedback (good and bad) and take it very seriously. Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - source: FAQ

 

This could also have been maintained a lot more easier if armor didn't scale.

 

 

Look at those numbers.

 

 

Ogris and Flux.... are Mastery Rank 6 and above... and the reason they use those other weapons is mainly for the mastery so you can level up. This game is a grindfest. Also: Slots. F2P players have a lot of restrictions with that and it hinders progress big time.

 

 

 

Yes, a system purely based on RNG. I got my full Latron Prime on the 4th try doing Void (Luck?). RNG is really random and it can cause a lot of hate. Fair to have their own advantages? Like what? If they were straight upgrade skins I would be fine with it. Since you would still need to require the base weapon. But a seperate weapon that is a straight upgrade making the old weapons outdated and a lot less effective vs the Prime weapons? No.

 

Skins are good since you still require the base weapon to have it. But current system is not. It is different with the Braton Vandal which is a side grade from the regular Braton: It has no better points at all so it can stay a limited edition seperate weapon like that. This is not an MMORPG. This is a 3rd person shooter, MMORPG like mechanics don't really fit well into this game since this game mainly attracts players that come from a shooter background.

 

 

Clearly an opinion? Yes it's an opinion but that opinion was created based on research and calculations. It keeps the game alive longer and people almost always stay longer playing the game due to PvP. Because fighting players is a complete different experience each time and the learning curve is steep vs PvE. It's a complete new set of challenges because the way the enemies behave is completely different from the oh so predictable AI. This is not restricted to Battlefield 3 only. It's with a lot of games which have a good working integrated PvP. You even have a lot of players staying in those games for over 2-4 years and the reason they give why they stuck so long to that game is.... PvP. The game itself, the PvE features don't last as long. Grinding, farming all of that stuff don't provide much challenge. It will get boring really fast especially for players who are used to PvP. And that is the biggest part of the "players who are used to shooters"

 

 

No, ofcourse not. But it would help the game a lot more if players instead of searching for other games that have PvP stick with the own game's PvP. PvP is a necessity to keeping games alive a lot longer. That is both an opinion of me but it's based on calculations. Yes I am asking for something big, it's because that can be a great investment into the game if it is implemented right. Sure it takes a lot of resources. But who says it needs to be implemented right now?

 

I express discontent with the way the game currently is going. The lack of focus on broken mechanics, bugs and the glitches that have stuck for a long time. Graphics department is still messed up with settings glitching out and resetting while in-game. Also the ridiculous settings like bloom that almost never gets used at all and HDR that doesn't even function at all atm. Stupid AI that bugs out very often. I either prefered if they focused on fixing that. But PvP was just an idea.

 

Lacking something simple. Yes it was an understatement. I actually meant "Lacking something that's a necessity" I'm not a native English speaker. I have trouble finding out how to say certain stuff. But this is one of the good ways how to implement PvP. There are a lot of bad ways to implement PvP and I tried to base my ideas from a game I used to play a lot back in the day: Tribes 2. It's a fast paced game that needed a lot of cooperation, skill and it had different classes in it.

 

They are doing a lot yes. But they shouldn't focus on new features each time. They should just focus on fixing the current features and the balancing issues.

Armor scales.  And you still don't have to have a particular weapon or mod to kill anything for pretty much the entire game except very high level defense.  You act as though everything is obsolete without the anti-armor stat.

 

AP mod.. I will not bother discussing how armor elemental damage is different from armor ignore.

 

You quote the FAQ as though a slightly more powerful weapon completely invalidates the need for any other weapon.  Other weapons still perform very well.  No weapon just plain sucks and can't kill stuff.  Your whole argument appears based on very high level defense.

 

So armor scales again.  WOOO.  It makes enemies harder to kill.  Nice.  Glad I can't 1 shot everything.

 

F2P by nature has to involve some grindfest bro.  Without goals, players have nothing to strive for.  Mastery gives small consistent goals for those interested with rewards in the form of unique weapons.

 

Skins are nice.  An elite version of a weapon from void still does not invalidate the current weapon because not everyone has the prime version.

 

PVP blah blah blah helps games geared toward PVP blah blah blah.  Last I checked Call of Duty and Battlefield included grinding to get more stuff.

 

You don't have an opinion based on fact and research.  You reference games designed for PVP in which PVP has been successful.  It is not a proven business strategy for all games.

 

Mechanics aren't broken if you don't like them.  Armor scaling adds artificial difficulty to the game in place of advanced AI that would slow the game down.  It could be better, but the game is constantly being tweaked.  Wait for it.. Waaaaait for it... HOTFIX.

 

PVP as a necessity is a false fact and purely opinion.  If it was a necessity, EVERYONE would agree with you and DE would have already added it.  It's not.  The game is a cooperative objective based game in a fantasy world that does not involve tenno fighting each other while trying to save the galaxy.  Also, your version of PVP is still a whole new game.  Tribes 2 was a PVP game.  Massive levels with weapons and vehicles.  Warframe is a procedurally generated linear level system with weapons, powers, and wall running.  Pretty different.  Both games are great for focusing on what they are designed for.

 

TL;DR:  You can't force animators to find the bugs in the code that you *@##$ about.  You can't force the content design team to fix your alleged broken mechanics.  You can't expect coders to drop everything and add PVP because you have an extremely narrow complete and want a whole new game.

[Bakercompany86]

PVP blah blah blah helps games geared toward PVP blah blah blah.  Last I checked Call of Duty and Battlefield included grinding to get more stuff.

 

 

I think your definition of grinding is a bit askew.

 

Nothing in those games feels like a grind.  Unlocking new weapons as part of level progression is not a grind, it's just horizontal progression that works beautifully in those games.  And getting kills with said weapons to unlock attachments rewards player skill, not grinding.  You can play all day, but if you don't learn how to shoot and control your fire properly, you won't get those kills.

 

 

A grind is say, having to run missions over and over to find the materials necessary to boost something like a mod, or build something like a new weapon.  Further made painful by RNG.

 

You can run one zone 10 times, but you're not guaranteed that drop at all.  That is a grind based on RNG.

 

 

EDIT:  I think you also mistook his words on PvP.  It's true.  Games that are PvP centralized or at least have a strong PvP component have a much easier time maintaining game longevity.  Simply because designers don't have to come up with new enemies, new AI, and new areas constantly.  Players do this for them by being dynamic in themselves.  Players never act the same and are always trying different tactics.  Such is the nature of PvP.

 

A purely PvE game will have a much harder time at this.  New content must always be created, and it must be different or players will get bored and quit.

 

Look at Phobos.  They JUST released this zone, and people have already smashed it to bits and are pretty much done with it.  And it's not a small zone by any means.

 

So what was probably months of designing, programming, and implementation, was completed in less than 12 hours by most players.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Cyrosage]

I think your definition of grinding is a bit askew.

 

Nothing in those games feels like a grind.  Unlocking new weapons as part of level progression is not a grind, it's just horizontal progression that works beautifully in those games.  And getting kills with said weapons to unlock attachments rewards player skill, not grinding.  You can play all day, but if you don't learn how to shoot and control your fire properly, you won't get those kills.

 

 

A grind is say, having to run missions over and over to find the materials necessary to boost something like a mod, or build something like a new weapon.  Further made painful by RNG.

 

You can run one zone 10 times, but you're not guaranteed that drop at all.  That is a grind based on RNG.

 

 

EDIT:  I think you also mistook his words on PvP.  It's true.  Games that are PvP centralized or at least have a strong PvP component have a much easier time maintaining game longevity.  Simply because designers don't have to come up with new enemies, new AI, and new areas constantly.  Players do this for them by being dynamic in themselves.  Players never act the same and are always trying different tactics.  Such is the nature of PvP.

 

A purely PvE game will have a much harder time at this.  New content must always be created, and it must be different or players will get bored and quit.

 

Look at Phobos.  They JUST released this zone, and people have already smashed it to bits and are pretty much done with it.  And it's not a small zone by any means.

 

So what was probably months of designing, programming, and implementation, was completed in less than 12 hours by most players.

So this might be less readable because I'm on my phone, but a grind is still a grind even if it doesn't "feel like it". I love both war games mentioned but great aim isn't the only thing you need to succeed. The perks and add-ons (better sights and scopes for example) have to be unlocked by killing. Coincidentally, Warframe requires killing to make your stuff better. Whether it feels like a grind or not, still a grind. RNG simply determines what you have to grind with. 

 

Your assertion that PvP is great because players never act the same is based on an exaggerated claim. Given a limited space, players will develop patterns which you can see on heat maps of those levels. Campers camp, rushers rush. Some do a little of everything. Dynamic AI of a human pvp nature does not fit Warframe because it would slow the action. A clearly inferior enemy must take cover, hide, surprise, flank. How can you expect flanking in a linear level? If they hide, we run by. 

 

Players are "done" with Phobos the same way they are "done" with Xini or the void. Killing the same things in the same levels is something that is repetitive and grindy in both Warframe and CoD. 

 

Games that are MULTIPLAYER have the most longevity. It doesn't have to be PvP. 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Cyrosage

[Cyrosage]

 

"Warframe/Gun X is over(or under)-powered! (Why did you nerf? Why did you boost?)

We are rolling out balance changes very quickly. We love the feedback (good and bad) and take it very seriously. Our goal is to avoid having a single dominant weapon, build, mod configuration..." - Source: FAQ.

 

It's the main reason why I don't like the route this is going. They are diverting from what they said here and are now releasing overpowered mods, power creeps and a lot of unbalanced stuff.

 

Currently everyone obviously is going for damage builds only. It's quite a big problem. I'm pretty sure they took away all my mods during U7 because they wanted to change that route of taking only one superior build setup. But now the exact same is happening allover again.

 

While I agree that damage builds are something to strive for (vs throwing candy at enemies to make friends) there are plenty of people who play for fun which is why people play with bows, or use support frames like Trinity, or put Fury and Pressure Point on Reaper Prime (inferior damage I know, but very entertaining to me). 

[Bakercompany86]

So this might be less readable because I'm on my phone, but a grind is still a grind even if it doesn't "feel like it". I love both war games mentioned but great aim isn't the only thing you need to succeed. The perks and add-ons (better sights and scopes for example) have to be unlocked by killing. Coincidentally, Warframe requires killing to make your stuff better. Whether it feels like a grind or not, still a grind. RNG simply determines what you have to grind with. 

 

Your assertion that PvP is great because players never act the same is based on an exaggerated claim. Given a limited space, players will develop patterns which you can see on heat maps of those levels. Campers camp, rushers rush. Some do a little of everything. Dynamic AI of a human pvp nature does not fit Warframe because it would slow the action. A clearly inferior enemy must take cover, hide, surprise, flank. How can you expect flanking in a linear level? If they hide, we run by. 

 

Players are "done" with Phobos the same way they are "done" with Xini or the void. Killing the same things in the same levels is something that is repetitive and grindy in both Warframe and CoD. 

 

Games that are MULTIPLAYER have the most longevity. It doesn't have to be PvP. 

 

 

Kind of right, parts are wrong, some opinion.

 

Generally speaking, PvE games tend to die out quicker than PvP games.

 

The difference between facing players and AI, is that AI will do the exact same thing every time.  Even if a player rushes or whatever 3 matches in a row, he might alter it slightly or try things different on the fly.  AI is incapable of this.

 

If warframe allowed me to kill exactly 10 things to unlock something, it would be different.  But the fact is I might have to kill 100 things to get that one item or what have you.  That's not how the horizontal progression systems work that I mentioned.

 

 

Warframes problem is it's crushing vertical progression, with no horizontal progression at all.  You're forced to boost your damage as high as possible with no utility at all (or making utility irrelevant, as long as you have the damage).

 

This game would greatly benefit from a combination of the two, leaning towards horizontal progression where challenge could become the appeal instead of mindless grinding of missions (which really isn't fun).  Just my opinion.

 

This game rewards persistence only.  It doesn't reward skill at all.

[DiabolusUrsus]

While I agree that damage builds are something to strive for (vs throwing candy at enemies to make friends) there are plenty of people who play for fun which is why people play with bows, or use support frames like Trinity, or put Fury and Pressure Point on Reaper Prime (inferior damage I know, but very entertaining to me). 

Yes, people play for fun and use builds that aren't definitively 'the best,' simply because they have builds they like better. I am one of these people. But am still on board with R3leaZ concerning weapon balance and enemy scaling. Why? Because there are certain areas of the game (not just high wave defense, either,) where you can feel the difference between weapons that have that added armor ignore and those that don't.

Saying that weapon balance only affects a select portion of gameplay or that people still use nonstandard builds for fun as a means of dismissing the importance of balancing out existing equipment is misguided. I am a proponent of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it," but the key to being successful with that philosophy is that you need to be able to recognize when things are broken. The weapons in Warframe are most definitely broken. They're mostly broken because of the way armor scales in this game, but we'll see how DE deals with the community uproar about that.

The important thing to realize is that according to DE's previous statements, the people who customize their weapons to their preferences (e.g. those that don't simply use min/max damage+ builds on all their equipment,) should be standing on equal ground with the people who do use min/maxed damage+ builds. Everything should be more or less equally viable. And that definitely isn't the case. YES, many casual mod configurations and weapon loadouts are reasonably viable. The only problem is that there is a very select set of weapons and mods that under identical circumstances will always perform decisively better. That part needs to change.

[CrazyCanadian24]

In response to the PvP debate, here's an idea... why not play as the enemy factions? As in, play as Grineer/Corpus units? That would certainly make balancing a lot less of a headache.

[Cyrosage]

Kind of right, parts are wrong, some opinion.

 

Generally speaking, PvE games tend to die out quicker than PvP games.

 

The difference between facing players and AI, is that AI will do the exact same thing every time.  Even if a player rushes or whatever 3 matches in a row, he might alter it slightly or try things different on the fly.  AI is incapable of this.

 

If warframe allowed me to kill exactly 10 things to unlock something, it would be different.  But the fact is I might have to kill 100 things to get that one item or what have you.  That's not how the horizontal progression systems work that I mentioned.

 

 

Warframes problem is it's crushing vertical progression, with no horizontal progression at all.  You're forced to boost your damage as high as possible with no utility at all (or making utility irrelevant, as long as you have the damage).

 

This game would greatly benefit from a combination of the two, leaning towards horizontal progression where challenge could become the appeal instead of mindless grinding of missions (which really isn't fun).  Just my opinion.

 

This game rewards persistence only.  It doesn't reward skill at all.

To reach mastery 11, you'll find plenty of horizontal progression as you get new weapons and try new planets. You might still have weapons that provide a noticeable difference in higher levels but you can take your aklato and still kill just fine unless you're fighting level 100+ (defense anybody?). 

 

The horizontal progression works differently because the style is different. Admittedly, they could just add better rewards to the head shot mini quests though and it would be more rewarding for skill. 

 

As this isn't a competitive game, there is little incentive to reward skill when you can reward loyalty or dedication. Not saying skill rewards wouldn't be nicer if it were more than a tiny xp reward. 

[Bakercompany86]

To reach mastery 11, you'll find plenty of horizontal progression as you get new weapons and try new planets. You might still have weapons that provide a noticeable difference in higher levels but you can take your aklato and still kill just fine unless you're fighting level 100+ (defense anybody?). 

 

The horizontal progression works differently because the style is different. Admittedly, they could just add better rewards to the head shot mini quests though and it would be more rewarding for skill. 

 

As this isn't a competitive game, there is little incentive to reward skill when you can reward loyalty or dedication. Not saying skill rewards wouldn't be nicer if it were more than a tiny xp reward. 

 

 

The weapons are fine by themselves.  And you're right the mastery system does lend a hand to horizontal progression.

 

It's the mods that kill it.  Having to bump up your damage by 200+% in order to keep up with the armor values and EHP.

 

Your last point is right.  And I'd love to see more incentive added to the skill challenges per mission.  XP is cool, but I'd like to see multiple challenges with separate tiers of difficulty perhaps.  20 pistol kills is far easier than 20 headshots.

 

 

 

My point on the horizontal progression would require a large game overhaul, and probably isn't very realistic at this point.  In shooters I personally like to see more challenge and less grind.  Which is where the horizontal part comes into play.  Instead of upping enemy health and armor, you add new units that add new challenge and require more skill to defeat.  Not to mention scaling AI, where units start off inaccurate and unaware upgrading eventually to Commando units that are lethal at range and know how to take cover and flank.

 

That's entirely my personal opinion and preference though.  I have heard others on this forum who say that like the fact that they can grind past content to make it trivial and a breeze.  That to me has no place in a shooter.

[LazyKnight]

TL;DR  Some want PVP.  Some don't.  Some don't care.  PVP might suck and ruin game.  PVP might rock but will take resources from main game and people already complain constantly about the main game.  Stakes are too high for PVE F2P game.

Aion is F2p and has pvp and it flat-out sucks in pvp because it is all class and gear for victory. Vindictus is F2P and has Pvp as well but it is terrible and basically tacked on as a useless feature. Tera has PVP but I wouldn't call it good. About the only F2P game that has solid PVP and PVE is the game Dragon nest but it uses two rule sets for each game type.

 

Wow has decent(at least did when I played years ago) PVP but it is not f2p but they also have blizzard running it and they are constantly balancing it. If DE wanted to add PVP they would likely need to hire a full time PVP support staff to balance all aspects of the game and I am unsure if it would even be warframe by the time they are done.

[Bakercompany86]

Aion is F2p and has pvp and it flat-out sucks in pvp because it is all class and gear for victory. Vindictus is F2P and has Pvp as well but it is terrible and basically tacked on as a useless feature. Tera has PVP but I wouldn't call it good. About the only F2P game that has solid PVP and PVE is the game Dragon nest but it uses two rule sets for each game type.

 

Wow has decent(at least did when I played years ago) PVP but it is not f2p but they also have blizzard running it and they are constantly balancing it. If DE wanted to add PVP they would likely need to hire a full time PVP support staff to balance all aspects of the game and I am unsure if it would even be warframe by the time they are done.

 

Aion is pay to win unfortunately.  And about as close to a WoW clone as you can get.

 

IF we implement PvP in Warframe, it would have to be similar to ranked PvP in GW2 where everyone has a set frame or a choice between 3 set pvp frames (as mentioned, light, medium, heavy) and a set of PvP balanced weapons.

 

Otherwise this game is ripe for PvP play.  The gameplay and mechanics are perfect for fast paced game modes of Conquest/CTF/Deathmatch types.

 

Whether you like PvP or not, that would add a significant amount to the playerbase and increase this games longevity a great deal as well as adding another venue to sell platinum for DE (we want them to succeed, after all).

 

 

Having said that, I know that there is a great deal of outcry from the playerbase against PvP.  On that note I'd like to make sure a couple points are remembered:

 

-Things like that get dedicated teams, thus not taking away any focus from single player aspects of the game

-If you don't like PvP, you do not have to play it.  And the two don't have to have anything to do with each other beyond aesthetic things from victories.

-Like it or not, there are tens of thousands of players who would.  I'm one of them.  I'd play the hell out of PvP in this game.

 

 

*puts on flame retardant gear*

[Cyrosage]

Yes, people play for fun and use builds that aren't definitively 'the best,' simply because they have builds they like better. I am one of these people. But am still on board with R3leaZ concerning weapon balance and enemy scaling. Why? Because there are certain areas of the game (not just high wave defense, either,) where you can feel the difference between weapons that have that added armor ignore and those that don't.

Saying that weapon balance only affects a select portion of gameplay or that people still use nonstandard builds for fun as a means of dismissing the importance of balancing out existing equipment is misguided. I am a proponent of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it," but the key to being successful with that philosophy is that you need to be able to recognize when things are broken. The weapons in Warframe are most definitely broken. They're mostly broken because of the way armor scales in this game, but we'll see how DE deals with the community uproar about that.

The important thing to realize is that according to DE's previous statements, the people who customize their weapons to their preferences (e.g. those that don't simply use min/max damage+ builds on all their equipment,) should be standing on equal ground with the people who do use min/maxed damage+ builds. Everything should be more or less equally viable. And that definitely isn't the case. YES, many casual mod configurations and weapon loadouts are reasonably viable. The only problem is that there is a very select set of weapons and mods that under identical circumstances will always perform decisively better. That part needs to change.

I agree for the most part but implying fun builds should be equal to damage builds only works when they are the same. Skill just isn't needed as much as teamwork. Maybe that's not a good thing but pvp isn't necessarily the answer either. 

 

Skill rewards are the best suggestion to come from this thread actually. Doesn't require pvp either! 

[DirkDeadeye]

I love the forums here.

 

Instead of trying to work with the OP in topics regarding feedback, the attitude is.. "OKAY! Let's TRY AND REFUTE ALL THE THINGS!"

[Bakercompany86]

I love the forums here.

 

Instead of trying to work with the OP in topics regarding feedback, the attitude is.. "OKAY! Let's TRY AND REFUTE ALL THE THINGS!"

 

There are some people on here are fiercely defensive of all aspects of this game, good or bad.  Even if it might benefit Warframe and the playerbase as a whole in the long run.

 

Then there are others who feel that due to their time invested into a Beta that DE owes them something, and don't want anything changed because of the time they've invested.  It's like this is their current fix of a drug or something.

[R3leaZ]

Armor scales.  And you still don't have to have a particular weapon or mod to kill anything for pretty much the entire game except very high level defense.  You act as though everything is obsolete without the anti-armor stat.

 

AP mod.. I will not bother discussing how armor elemental damage is different from armor ignore.

 

You quote the FAQ as though a slightly more powerful weapon completely invalidates the need for any other weapon.  Other weapons still perform very well.  No weapon just plain sucks and can't kill stuff.  Your whole argument appears based on very high level defense.

 

So armor scales again.  WOOO.  It makes enemies harder to kill.  Nice.  Glad I can't 1 shot everything.

 

F2P by nature has to involve some grindfest bro.  Without goals, players have nothing to strive for.  Mastery gives small consistent goals for those interested with rewards in the form of unique weapons.

 

Skins are nice.  An elite version of a weapon from void still does not invalidate the current weapon because not everyone has the prime version.

 

PVP blah blah blah helps games geared toward PVP blah blah blah.  Last I checked Call of Duty and Battlefield included grinding to get more stuff.

 

You don't have an opinion based on fact and research.  You reference games designed for PVP in which PVP has been successful.  It is not a proven business strategy for all games.

 

Mechanics aren't broken if you don't like them.  Armor scaling adds artificial difficulty to the game in place of advanced AI that would slow the game down.  It could be better, but the game is constantly being tweaked.  Wait for it.. Waaaaait for it... HOTFIX.

 

PVP as a necessity is a false fact and purely opinion.  If it was a necessity, EVERYONE would agree with you and DE would have already added it.  It's not.  The game is a cooperative objective based game in a fantasy world that does not involve tenno fighting each other while trying to save the galaxy.  Also, your version of PVP is still a whole new game.  Tribes 2 was a PVP game.  Massive levels with weapons and vehicles.  Warframe is a procedurally generated linear level system with weapons, powers, and wall running.  Pretty different.  Both games are great for focusing on what they are designed for.

 

TL;DR:  You can't force animators to find the bugs in the code that you $#*(@ about.  You can't force the content design team to fix your alleged broken mechanics.  You can't expect coders to drop everything and add PVP because you have an extremely narrow complete and want a whole new game.

 

You're right. They are not obsolete, but they are also nowhere as effective as the AI/AP weapons.

 

AP mod. Is the only elemental that actually bypasses armor. Resistances are different from armor. NO other elemental bypasses armor and eventually end up almost doing nothing. I don't want to one shot enemies with OP weapons. But I also don't want underpowered weapons or mods that lose effectiveness fast when enemies gain levels.

 

Based on progress of level. I am meant to test every part of the game, such is the task of the beta tester and the scaling currently is terribly broken. How can you not see that? T3 Void has the same issue at times with ridiculous armor scaling where I burn through a lot of ammo boxes if Im not using AI or AP weapons. My Braton Vandal (favourite gun) takes significantly longer bringing down certain enemies vs armor ignore weapons or AP weapons. Sure AP weapons aren't as effective as AI weapons are all-round but still you get my point. Armor in this game is implemented terribly.

 

I am also one of those people who has a favourite weapon and likes to play for fun. But knowing that AI weapons or AP weapons would work so much better just give a bad taste in the mouth.

 

So armor scales again.  WOOO.  It makes enemies harder to kill.  Nice.  Glad I can't 1 shot everything.

 

Great that I need a quarter or more of my max amount of ammo to bring someone down /sarcasm. Bullet sponges are a horrible mechanic. They take 0 skill to fight and get terribly repetitive very fast.

 

I think your definition of grinding is a bit askew.

 

Nothing in those games feels like a grind.  Unlocking new weapons as part of level progression is not a grind, it's just horizontal progression that works beautifully in those games.  And getting kills with said weapons to unlock attachments rewards player skill, not grinding.  You can play all day, but if you don't learn how to shoot and control your fire properly, you won't get those kills.

 

A grind is say, having to run missions over and over to find the materials necessary to boost something like a mod, or build something like a new weapon.  Further made painful by RNG.

 

I agree with this. Battlefield 3 does not feel like a grind at all. You have fun progressing in those kind of games because you need a set amount of kills to get attachments. Your goal you have set actually isn't blocked by this giant wall of RNG. Warframe is completely blocked by an RNG wall that decides whether you get the item or not and some unlucky players can try 100+ hours and still not get the things they thought they could get 100 hours ago just because RNG is horrible. Do you know how terrible that feels? Add to it that at times it takes ages to get damage mods in this games or useful mods that can help with progress. Thus you will be blocked needing to grind and grind forever until you get the necessary mod to progress effectively.

 

The vertical progression in this game is so horrible for motivation since you can get instances where it will take forever to get something because you lack the mods to do the mission effectively.

 

Aion is F2p and has pvp and it flat-out sucks in pvp because it is all class and gear for victory. Vindictus is F2P and has Pvp as well but it is terrible and basically tacked on as a useless feature. Tera has PVP but I wouldn't call it good. About the only F2P game that has solid PVP and PVE is the game Dragon nest but it uses two rule sets for each game type.

 

Wow has decent(at least did when I played years ago) PVP but it is not f2p but they also have blizzard running it and they are constantly balancing it. If DE wanted to add PVP they would likely need to hire a full time PVP support staff to balance all aspects of the game and I am unsure if it would even be warframe by the time they are done.

 

Those games are not shooters. Shooters have a completely different way to play the game. In shooters everything needs to be balanced and it is also easier to maintain than the tiering system of games like WoW and Aion. In shooters it actually is a matter of skill if you can win or not. Honestly bringing in mods from PvE is a no-no. Sure the weapons and all can get in but mods and all of that, no. The whole mod system would need to be different in PvP due to how unbalanced it is. Pre-mods like I mentioned earlier would work the best. They would be like perks. Also this would also help rebalancing the unbalanced weapons.

 

Lack of creativity I am seeing in this thread, seriously. PvP wouldn't fit the lore? How about make it a training program for Tenno? Tenno fight eachother to become better and more effective in real battle? How about another example that we could have similar PvP to: Crysis series. They have abilities there and it's very well balanced.

Edited August 13, 2013 by R3leaZ

[CrazyCanadian24]

I love the forums here.

 

Instead of trying to work with the OP in topics regarding feedback, the attitude is.. "OKAY! Let's TRY AND REFUTE ALL THE THINGS!"

 

Isn't that the best part of the forums, though?

[Bakercompany86]

 

Great that I need a quarter or more of my max amount of ammo to bring someone down /sarcasm. Bullet sponges are a horrible thing not good. They take 0 skill to fight and get terribly repetitive.

 

 

I agree with this. Battlefield 3 does not feel like a grind at all. You have fun progressing in those kind of games because you need a set amount of kills to get attachments. Your goal you have set actually isn't blocked by this giant wall of RNG. Warframe is completely blocked by an RNG wall that decides whether you get the item or not and some unlucky players can try 100+ hours and still not get the things they thought they could get 100 hours ago just because RNG is horrible. Do you know how terrible that feels? Add to it that at times it takes ages to get damage mods in this games or useful mods that can help with progress. Thus you will be blocked needing to grind and grind forever until you get the necessary mod to progress effectively.

 

The vertical progression in this game is so horrible for motivation since you can get instances where it will take forever to get something because you lack the mods to do the mission effectively.

 

 

Those games are not shooters. Shooters have a completely different way to play the game. In shooters everything needs to be balanced and it is also easier to maintain than the tiering system of games like WoW and Aion. In shooters it actually is a matter of skill if you can win or not. Honestly bringing in mods from PvE is a no-no. Sure the weapons and all can get in but mods and all of that, no. The whole mod system would need to be different in PvP due to how unbalanced it is. Pre-mods like I mentioned earlier would work the best. They would be like perks. Also this would also help rebalancing the unbalanced weapons.

 

Lack of creativity I am seeing in this thread, seriously. PvP wouldn't fit the lore? How about make it a training program for Tenno? Tenno fight eachother to become better and more effective in real battle? How about another example that we could have similar PvP to: Crysis series. They have abilities there and it's very well balanced.

 

 

Very well said.  I'm completely with you on all points you've mentioned.

 

People assume that altering this staggering vertical progression will be the end of this game, I believe exactly the opposite.

 

Bullet sponges are not fun.  Requiring me to grind out boring damage increasing mods simply to be able to spit out enough DPS to complete the content regardless of skill isn't fun either.

 

I swear some people are afraid they might actually have to aim and not rely on their death cannons they've built.  God forbid we want you to get better instead of complacent.  But that's just my opinion.

[LazyKnight]

 

Those games are not shooters. Shooters have a completely different way to play the game. In shooters everything needs to be balanced and it is also easier to maintain than the tiering system of games like WoW and Aion. In shooters it actually is a matter of skill if you can win or not. Honestly bringing in mods from PvE is a no-no. Sure the weapons and all can get in but mods and all of that, no. The whole mod system would need to be different in PvP due to how unbalanced it is. Pre-mods like I mentioned earlier would work the best. They would be like perks. Also this would also help rebalancing the unbalanced weapons.

 

I only know of a few on-line shooters(that follow a F2P cash shop model) and they are all so new I have no idea if they will die in next few month. I was just looking at games that were F2P and lasted more than 6 months. I know how I would make Warframe PVP compatible but it would take a lot of hours and take a second rule set for PVP encounters.

 

The model they need to copy is dragon nest where gear and weapon(only type matters) does nothing and all skills and powers have a 2nd set of PVP rules that the follow when used on player. DE would have to really want PVP to do the amount of work required to implement such a thing as a dual rules set for the game.

 

I am totaly neutral on PVP and couldn't careless if it was in game or not.

Edited August 13, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Cyrosage]

Overall without trying to be a #$&(%, there are many good points made for and against mentioned in changes. I respect your opinions and may disagree with some, but who knows what changes may come. Guess we can just make suggestions rather than complaints and see how it works out. 

[R3leaZ]

Take for example these other games that do very well in PvP and the main source of income comes from cosmetic items: Dota 2, Team Fortress 2. Very succesful games with huge incomes. And a gigantic playerbase. Oh and both F2P.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Edited August 13, 2013 by R3leaZ