Mods 3.0: A New Chapter In Warframe?

[FatRefrigerator]

WANNA KNOW WHAT GRINDS MY GEARS?

Grinding. Grinding grinds my gears. But ya know what, kid? It's unavoidable in pretty much any game you play, and that sucks. So instead of looking for ways to make grinding go away, we need to be thinking about how to make grinding suck less.

Okay so I know the hottest topic since Mods 2.0 were introduced has been...Mods. So here's yet another mod thread, but wait, what's that? It's not talking about making the mods give you Jesus-guns if you happen to have enough credits and good luck? It isn't raging about how the drop rate sucks and fusion cores suck? Well I'll be! It's a grand ole (partial) solution thread!

Alright so I now have a few ideas on the table for how to make mod/stat progression be skill/proficiency based.

Here it is people:

THE FIRST IDEA:

Mods 3.0:

The whole purpose of Mods 3.0 is to take -the mod RNG, the luck, fate, whatever the hell you wanna call it- out of the game, and make it be based on skill and proficiency.

So, instead of having to farm mods and fuse them up to get better, have the mod progress instead be based on how well you perform with a certain type of skill...let me explain further:

Example 1: You want to level up your rifle critical chance mod. How do you go about doing this? Instead of hoping you you can get the mod to drop, you must prove your proficiency in getting headshots. Every time you land a headshot, not necessarily the killing blow, but just a headshot, you get a bit of Affinity for that type of critical chance mod.

Example 1.5: Same as above, except for critical damage instead of chance. You gain mod affinity every time you kill with a headshot.

Example 2: You want to level up your pistol fire rate mod. How do you go about doing this? Every time you pistol kill an enemy within 3 seconds of a previous pistol kill, you gain affinity with that mod.

Example 3: You want to level up your melee charge speed mod. Every time you land a heavy melee attack with a two handed(heavy) melee weapon, you gain affinity for that mod.

Example 3.5: You want to level up your melee charge damage mod. Every time you land a killing blow with a heavy melee attack from a heavy melee weapon, you gain affinity for that mod.

There are a myriad of other examples...well, one for each mod at least. But you get the point, it's supposed to be based off of skill and not who got really lucky with the RNG and had plenty of fusion cores.

EDIT: It seems I forgot to mention one part, you can still have 8 mods equipped at one time, and level each of them up at the same time. You don't have to level them individually.

THE SECOND IDEA:

This idea would function more or less the same as the above one, with one major exception:

Instead of having mods increase your weapon stats, using the weapon a certain way will increase each individual stat on the weapon.

For instance, to increase your Braton's crit chance, simply get headshots. To increase its crit damage, get headshot kills. It works just like the mod idea, except each weapon is affected directly, and not through the use of mods.

THE THIRD IDEA:

This idea, is again, similar to the ones above it, with another change in mechanics. Using the current weapon leveling system, you get a random stat boost with each level you weapon gains. I find this to be the weakest of the current ideas on the table, but hey...its something.

"Hey FatRefrigerator, how will leveling up elemental mods work?" Excellent question hypothetical inquirer!

Elemental mods will now act on guns like auras act on Warframes...to an extent. The main point I'm trying to make is that you have a special slot just for elemental effects on each weapon. This also implies that you will only be able to have one elemental modifier on your weapon at a time-BUT FATREFRIGERATOR, I LIKE HAVING 4 DIFFERENT ELEMENTAL MODS ON MY-Yo kid, I'm really happy for you, and Imma let you finish, but I just wanted to say that having more than one elemental effect on a weapon at the same time is kinda OP and shouldn't happen. The way you level up your elemental effect mod is simply to get kills with the mod. Seeing as this would make the mod fairly easy to level up, it would require a substantial number of kills to get the mod to the next level, and you would get bonus affinity for using the proper element against the proper faction(Grineer-Armor Piercing, Corpus-Electric, Infested-Fire, and Cryo gets bonus affinity on all kills).

So there, I said it. Now obviously it's not a fully developed concept, but it's one that can be expanded on and improved. I created this thread in the hopes of getting the ball rolling in the direction of skill based progression, and not luck/grinding. So without further ado, let the keyboard war....BEGIN!

EDIT: So after reading a few of the replies, it would seem to me that you guys are able to level up your mods quite quickly and easily, so it may just be my sore luck or horrible gameplay, but I still do not have maxed out redirection, serration, or vitality mods...and I'm mastery 8.5 with 300+ hours drained into this game. So I kinda wish I could level up my mods without having to pray to the fusion core gods every night.

EDIT 2: Another common reply theme is that "I don't wanna be forced to play a certain way." I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you have to play a certain way. No where in this post does it say that you lose 5000 credits each time you don't get a kill the right way. You can still play the way you normally play and get mod affinity all the whole. Now, if you're striving to get your critical chance up, then buckle buttercup because it's headshot time. Most of the methods that I can think of (and haven't posted) are all doing things that you already do, they just level up your mods on the side.

EDIT 3: Another alternative-to let those players satisfy the weird fetish they have for progression based on luck-would be to keep fusion cores in the game and have them be able to be applied to an individual mod to give it a temporary boost to it's stats.

The rarity of the core and the level of it determine how it behaves. The level(number of white dots filled in) would determine how long the core lasts. And the rarity(common, uncommon, rare) would determine how much of a stat boost the core would provide.

For example: A common fusion core with 5 of the white dots filled in would increase the stat by (5%?) for 5 mission runs.

An uncommon core with 7 white dots filled would increase the stat by (10%?) for 7 mission runs.

A rare core with 3 dots filled would increase the stat by (15%?) for 3 missions.

Edited August 16, 2013 by FatRefrigerator

[EinRyu]

Yeah it's cool and all... but this would be a bigger grind then the mods themselves... If they did this and they kept a base of what was the Mod Tiers, something like 100% Rifle Crit Chance split into 5 Levels starting at say 100 Headshots and then maybe 300 then 500 etc would be honestly... a pain in the &#!. In that amount of time I could have farmed the mods need and been done with it, and how would this work for melee? It'd be a mess with the current state of melee weps. What if I wanted to level a Pressure Point on a say... Scindo, since it has no armor ignore I'd be stuck fighting infested using the normal attack over... and over... and over... till I get to that 120% Melee damege or w/e it is then.

 

And then there's the fact that when Mod 2.0 released anyhow it caused some backlash due to the fact that it was practically an account reset, it removed all the power you previously had and put you back at level 1 pretty much, do you honestly wanna grind out to be as strong as you are now AGAIN? I honestly can't see myself having the motivation to do that. It's an okay idea but leave it for another game as I can easily see this having way too much back lash. And the amount of Endless Defense/Mobile Defense grinding to do this... Makes me shiver.

[arisaka]

I think the idea of actually using your weapons to level up your mods is a good idea. Here's a story: I've played about 58 hours of Warframe; I got my first Cryo rounds mod at about hour 50. It's not really an isolated incident either - my first Killing Blow was probably at ~45 hours, my first Reach was about ~50 hours, my first Stretch mod was at ~55 hours. And all of those are uncommon. If the mods I get depend on luck, then all the choice that the mods give is based on luck. That isn't cool.

 

EDIT: As the above poster said, it's also a full reset, which most people (even the people like me who want change) aren't going to be happy ab out. But I suppose there could be a way for the mods we have and their levels to transfer over?

Edited August 15, 2013 by arisaka

[FatRefrigerator]

Yeah it's cool and all... but this would be a bigger grind then the mods themselves... If they did this and they kept a base of what was the Mod Tiers, something like 100% Rifle Crit Chance split into 5 Levels starting at say 100 Headshots and then maybe 300 then 500 etc would be honestly... a pain in the &#!. In that amount of time I could have farmed the mods need and been done with it, and how would this work for melee? It'd be a mess with the current state of melee weps. What if I wanted to level a Pressure Point on a say... Scindo, since it has no armor ignore I'd be stuck fighting infested using the normal attack over... and over... and over... till I get to that 120% Melee damege or w/e it is then.

 

And then there's the fact that when Mod 2.0 released anyhow it caused some backlash due to the fact that it was practically an account reset, it removed all the power you previously had and put you back at level 1 pretty much, do you honestly wanna grind out to be as strong as you are now AGAIN? I honestly can't see myself having the motivation to do that. It's an okay idea but leave it for another game as I can easily see this having way too much back lash. And the amount of Endless Defense/Mobile Defense grinding to do this... Makes me shiver.

 

 

Yeah I know exactly how you feel, and I felt it the whole time I was writing this thread. And to be honest, I'm not quite sure how to remedy the situation of "I got my redirection mod maxed out and it cost 7093842174309182537152098 credits and took me 300 blood-curdling hours, I don't want it reset".

 

And one way I see it being fixed is kinda simple and maybe completely stupid but hear me out. Whatever overall Mastery level you are, is the max level your mods will be when they are reset. For example, if you're mastery 6 and you have a level 8 vitality, it will be lowered to 6, yet your level 4 charge speed mod will be left at 4.

[Syndrella]

Just the real life. Need luck to accept your ideas and improve the game btw i don't care anymore.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

 

Well, let me start saying that i will give you my +1..... not because i would like this to be implemented, but because it's really well presented, it shows that you put a lot of consideration into it and went through the effort of making a suggestion based on facts, gameplay and other game's experience too.

 

I really really don't want to shoot down the idea. But the main thing is, this would promote a lot of problems, a great deal of them.

One of the critical issues, would be that besides all the grinding currently existing in WF, this would take grinding to yet another level. The idea in itself it isn't terrible, but the consequences on gameplay would be devastating. And do you imagine what will happen to people that want to have more than one mod maxed? I really like that i have the CHOICE to spend my mods, fuse them however i want to..... and max the ones i want first. When i had nothing, i scrubbed in whatever i could, swapping mods between frames and weapons all the time...... now that i have the mean to do it, i simply have maxed a lot of common use mods for each thing i use frequently because i HATE to swap mods, i simply hate that... and i find it very comfortable to just keep them there in each weapon. But that's a minor thing compared to the grinding (and also a thing that might get worked up after some time with the pre-loadouts they talked about in livestream)

Another critical issue would be how to balance this with current things..... a lot of people farmed for their stuff, there's the fusion cores (i don't see a place for them in your system and i don't see you mentioning what would happen with them)....  so probably the only way to go with that is compensate them with equivalents or ways to auto level the mods with that..... but that would also break the system (and you totally have to do it, you can just screw them... people would go mad, kill themselves, burn you alive, raid villages and murder children.... :P)

 

Bottom line, i am sorry but i don't really see a place for this in Warframe and i think games that used systems like this (use skills to level them up, keep passives active to level them up, use that weapon or style to level that particular thing/skill up, etc) ended up tiring the players because of the massive grinding restricted to a fixed thing (skill/weapon/ability/etc) doing it over and over and over again until you kill yourself or become a zombie. With the current system, at least we can do the farming/grinding in any way we like it and not totally restricted.

[FatRefrigerator]

Well, let me start saying that i will give you my +1..... not because i would like this to be implemented, but because it's really well presented, it shows that you put a lot of consideration into it and went through the effort of making a suggestion based on facts, gameplay and other game's experience too.

 

I really really don't want to shoot down the idea. But the main thing is, this would promote a lot of problems, a great deal of them.

One of the critical issues, would be that besides all the grinding currently existing in WF, this would take grinding to yet another level. The idea in itself it isn't terrible, but the consequences on gameplay would be devastating. And do you imagine what will happen to people that want to have more than one mod maxed? I really like that i have the CHOICE to spend my mods, fuse them however i want to..... and max the ones i want first. When i had nothing, i scrubbed in whatever i could, swapping mods between frames and weapons all the time...... now that i have the mean to do it, i simply have maxed a lot of common use mods for each thing i use frequently because i HATE to swap mods, i simply hate that... and i find it very comfortable to just keep them there in each weapon. But that's a minor thing compared to the grinding (and also a thing that might get worked up after some time with the pre-loadouts they talked about in livestream)

Another critical issue would be how to balance this with current things..... a lot of people farmed for their stuff, there's the fusion cores (i don't see a place for them in your system and i don't see you mentioning what would happen with them)....  so probably the only way to go with that is compensate them with equivalents or ways to auto level the mods with that..... but that would also break the system (and you totally have to do it, you can just screw them... people would go mad, kill themselves, burn you alive, raid villages and murder children.... :P)

 

Bottom line, i am sorry but i don't really see a place for this in Warframe and i think games that used systems like this (use skills to level them up, keep passives active to level them up, use that weapon or style to level that particular thing/skill up, etc) ended up tiring the players because of the massive grinding restricted to a fixed thing (skill/weapon/ability/etc) doing it over and over and over again until you kill yourself or become a zombie. With the current system, at least we can do the farming/grinding in any way we like it and not totally restricted.

 

 

You have opened my eyes, I'm gonna edit the main post to reflect how it might be better implemented.

[arch111]

The idea is good and well presented. Not likely to work in the game we have now tho.

But auras or something similar could work.

For example, Bladesmaster, Markman, Assasin, Demolition Man.

They all give boost to skills and weapon types. And kevel up either with use or fusing.

The elements I agree on, but they should negate. Fire OR Ice, or if you use two opposites, you get a %makeover reduction.

The only other way for this system to work is to add skills like a RPG that each class is better at.

Like 10% dmg on heavy weapons for example.

Basically incorporate some Mods as Passives on each Warframe making it more viable to pick wich one you want to play and master.

Finsally a weapon that is if technocyte design, origin.

They are capable of evolution, and have limited conciousness.

These weapons could indeed learn by usage instead of modding.

Of course they would be like Legendary items and is more or less a steal from

Whatever rpg you prefer.

I got to thinking of this when I found a mod "Smite Grineer".

Sounds an awfoul lot like diablo giving small tesistances or boosts

against specific factions.

Anyway, my contrib to your idea.

[TheHeraldXII]

A noble idea but it's basically just making the mod collection process a whole slog of 'chieve grinding.

I like the idea of making elementals take up a seperate slot though, that's a good idea that I think could work.

[SilentCynic]

I greatly enjoy this idea, but the obvious problem of grinding rears its head. You're replacing random grinding with a more... 'enjoyable', skill-based grinding, but it'll still be a slog.

 

My suggestions would be to either:

A) greatly increase the rate at which this new method you're suggesting gains affinity, or

B) use this new method in conjunction with what we have now. That way, one can still quickly add a bunch of ranks to mods, but you have the option to grind them and level them that way. This would be quite welcome for those of us who keep having to sacrifice newborns to our Merciless Lord, Serration.

[FatRefrigerator]

I greatly enjoy this idea, but the obvious problem of grinding rears its head. You're replacing random grinding with a more... 'enjoyable', skill-based grinding, but it'll still be a slog.

 

My suggestions would be to either:

A) greatly increase the rate at which this new method you're suggesting gains affinity, or

B) use this new method in conjunction with what we have now. That way, one can still quickly add a bunch of ranks to mods, but you have the option to grind them and level them that way. This would be quite welcome for those of us who keep having to sacrifice newborns to our Merciless Lord, Serration.

Many of you guys are replying and talking as if I said you needed 300million affinity per rank and you only gain one affinity at a time. The mechanic of the idea is what I'm presenting. Everything is still in variable form. I usually leave the job of coming up with concrete numbers and values to other people.

[SilentCynic]

Many of you guys are replying and talking as if I said you needed 300million affinity per rank and you only gain one affinity at a time. The mechanic of the idea is what I'm presenting. Everything is still in variable form. I usually leave the job of coming up with concrete numbers and values to other people.

 

I suppose many of us people are basing our replies off of assumptions and estimates, formed from experience in Warframe and other titles. I apologize for the error, but I believe that what will make or break this intriguing idea of yours is the amount of 'grinding' involved relative to what we have now.

[Bakercompany86]

Your post

 

I freaking LOVE THIS.  As a strong proponent of skill based challenge in shooting games, this is the best idea for leveling mods that I've heard to date.

 

There are people who won't like this, because they either lack the skill, enjoy grinding (who?), or just don't want to be taken out of their comfort zone.

 

 

But this idea to me is excellent, well thought out, and would work REALLY well.  Also putting a huge chunk of challenge back into the game.  Coupled with massive AI improvements, and holy crap we've got ourselves a game now boys! (and girls, sorry Rebecca).

 

Man....I'd pay money to see this implemented.  Hell I'd implement it just for myself if everyone else wanted to stick with RNG and mod dumping.

 

+1 for damn sure.

 

 

EDIT:  This for damn sure goes along with most modern shooters.  Where they typically have you get X kills to unlock Y attachment.  This is putting that into Warframes unique structure.  So you need X kills or X headshots to level your mod to the next stage.

And just to keep the credits involved as a credit dump, you could have it similar to the mastery system where you fill up a bar and then have to pay for it to make the jump (maybe even involve some mats of some sort, random thought).

Edited August 15, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[xenapan]

Actually I think a mini achievement system for mods would be a good idea. BUT instead of replacing the current mod system, make it concurrent with the existing system. It would also be able to help fix some of the existing problems (aka randomness with the RNG) so that players would get basic mods they NEED to progress consistently.

 

e.g. After taking 5000 damage so your shields, you are given a free redirection mod from the lotus (along with a tutorial on HOW to rank up mods)

 

THEN afterwards, each mod has it's levels split into 3 parts: 2 parts can be done concurrently. The 3rd part is full mastery.

1st part: Current mod system: fusing mods into other mods. (call this blue)

2nd part: XP system where mods gain affinity. (call this red)

3rd part: Mastery. After both first and second parts are complete (eg. rank 4 out of 5) you then have to complete one last achievement to gain that mod.

 

Then all the "basic" mods can be put in as achievements for health, shield, rifle damage, pistol damage, charge attack/speed, melee damage.

This would also slow down progress for older players getting new mods from events etc as they would have new achievements for the new mods which would also help extend gameplay a little.

[FatRefrigerator]

Another alternative-to let those players satisfy the weird fetish they have for progression based on luck-would be to keep fusion cores in the game and have them be able to be applied to an individual mod to give it a temporary boost to it's stats.

The rarity of the core and the level of it determine how it behaves. The level(number of white dots filled in) would determine how long the core lasts. And the rarity(common, uncommon, rare) would determine how much of a stat boost the core would provide.

For example: A common fusion core with 5 of the white dots filled in would increase the stat by (5%?) for 5 mission runs.

An uncommon core with 7 white dots filled would increase the stat by (10%?) for 7 mission runs.

A rare core with 3 dots filled would increase the stat by (15%?) for 3 missions.

[Bakercompany86]

Another alternative-to let those players satisfy the weird fetish they have for progression based on luck-would be to keep fusion cores in the game and have them be able to be applied to an individual mod to give it a temporary boost to it's stats.

The rarity of the core and the level of it determine how it behaves. The level(number of white dots filled in) would determine how long the core lasts. And the rarity(common, uncommon, rare) would determine how much of a stat boost the core would provide.

For example: A common fusion core with 5 of the white dots filled in would increase the stat by (5%?) for 5 mission runs.

An uncommon core with 7 white dots filled would increase the stat by (10%?) for 7 mission runs.

A rare core with 3 dots filled would increase the stat by (15%?) for 3 missions.

 

It just keeps getting better =D  Love it!

 

EDIT:  As far as the RNG grind fans out there (who the hell are you people?); leaving in the current weapon crafting system still involved grinding.  This helps keep older content relevant because you still need the materials.

 

If you were to couple that with the new Prime idea floating around, you'd still have plenty of grind to make the weapons and a lot of fun leveling your mods.  As opposed to endless farming to get enough mods to dump into your choice mod.

 

The idea with primes and tiered weapons;  The 3 stages (Standard, Vandal, Prime) would require the previous weapon as a component to upgrade.  Thus you must have the standard to make the vandal, and the vandal to make the prime.

 

This leaves in a good chunk of grind, albeit a fun one.  DE wins because players will need to spend plenty of time grinding out the weapons (plus blasting away to level up mods ala this system proposed here).  Players win because their previous weapons with forma/catalysts will carry over into the new version.  

Edited August 16, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[FatRefrigerator]

It just keeps getting better =D  Love it!

 

EDIT:  As far as the RNG grind fans out there (who the hell are you people?); leaving in the current weapon crafting system still involved grinding.  This helps keep older content relevant because you still need the materials.

 

If you were to couple that with the new Prime idea floating around, you'd still have plenty of grind to make the weapons and a lot of fun leveling your mods.  As opposed to endless farming to get enough mods to dump into your choice mod.

 

The idea with primes and tiered weapons;  The 3 stages (Standard, Vandal, Prime) would require the previous weapon as a component to upgrade.  Thus you must have the standard to make the vandal, and the vandal to make the prime.

 

This leaves in a good chunk of grind, albeit a fun one.  DE wins because players will need to spend plenty of time grinding out the weapons (plus blasting away to level up mods ala this system proposed here).  Players win because their previous weapons with forma/catalysts will carry over into the new version.

I had never thought about being able to upgrade from basic to vandal to prime, but that would be nice.

If, per se, after (3,4,5?) formas, the weapon upgrades permanently to the next version.

[Bakercompany86]

I had never thought about being able to upgrade from basic to vandal to prime, but that would be nice.

If, per se, after (3,4,5?) formas, the weapon upgrades permanently to the next version.

 

I was talking about the idea over on another thread in weapon feedback.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/95838-scott-weapon-tiering-concise/page-2

 

Basically my thinking was, have a blueprint that is actually a direct upgrade of your weapon that also requires your weapon as part of the material list.  Upgrading in this way would carry your catalyst and forma over.  DE could put steep material requirements on it to compensate for players not having to farm more forma (because missing forma alerts sucks).

 

Plus it made more logical sense to me, that you're ascending your weapon into vandal and prime versions.  I for one, get attached to my weapon of choice in shooters.  This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. =)

[arch111]

I was talking about the idea over on another thread in weapon feedback.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/95838-scott-weapon-tiering-concise/page-2

 

Basically my thinking was, have a blueprint that is actually a direct upgrade of your weapon that also requires your weapon as part of the material list.  Upgrading in this way would carry your catalyst and forma over.  DE could put steep material requirements on it to compensate for players not having to farm more forma (because missing forma alerts sucks).

 

Plus it made more logical sense to me, that you're ascending your weapon into vandal and prime versions.  I for one, get attached to my weapon of choice in shooters.  This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. =)

Excellent ideas! Logical upgrades and affinity gained by usage are both very motivating tools.

I am now playing with weapons ONLY to get mastery points.

Its really boring but i must climb in mastery if i want to get better weapons.

Its strange that my starter gun and rifle lv 30 is still

my best choice rather then my 27 lv paris, still pretty much useless.

If the Paris got better by me using it, that would allow me

to become a expert Archer!

[FatRefrigerator]

Excellent ideas! Logical upgrades and affinity gained by usage are both very motivating tools.

I am now playing with weapons ONLY to get mastery points.

Its really boring but i must climb in mastery if i want to get better weapons.

Its strange that my starter gun and rifle lv 30 is still

my best choice rather then my 27 lv paris, still pretty much useless.

If the Paris got better by me using it, that would allow me

to become a expert Archer!

 

 

That's yet another reason for Mods 3.0

[xenapan]

I was talking about the idea over on another thread in weapon feedback.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/95838-scott-weapon-tiering-concise/page-2

 

Basically my thinking was, have a blueprint that is actually a direct upgrade of your weapon that also requires your weapon as part of the material list.  Upgrading in this way would carry your catalyst and forma over.  DE could put steep material requirements on it to compensate for players not having to farm more forma (because missing forma alerts sucks).

 

Plus it made more logical sense to me, that you're ascending your weapon into vandal and prime versions.  I for one, get attached to my weapon of choice in shooters.  This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. =)

 

It was HEAVILY discussed when frost prime was being released. DE ignored us

[FatRefrigerator]

It was HEAVILY discussed when frost prime was being released. DE ignored us

Oh DE....

[FatRefrigerator]

It was HEAVILY discussed when frost prime was being released. DE ignored us

 

 

I was thinking and it's because they want to be able to release content to us and micromanage it.