Why The Penta/ogris Does Not Need An Ammo Nerf...

[nephalem87]

As you can see lately here on the forums, we have a quite a few players complaining about the Penta/Ogris Ammo type, and these players need to seriously be ignored for the greater good. I want to make a detailed post about why THEY DO NOT NEED AN AMMO NERF.

The first question you're thinking, "Well why should it?"

let's get into that here:

First of all , correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to get to Mastery level 6 or so to use the Penta/Ogris so that right there locks it away from noobies, which is ok in my book, and doesn't completely alienate your veteran/grinding player base. 

The Penta/Ogris has a high damage output and enemies are affected by it's splash damage which already makes it one of the most powerful weapons that are easily accessible to players ( at least the penta is). 

With that said a lot of players want to get the rare drops and  most of the time DE's rare drops come from lasting long times in survival and Defense, whether they be Orokin missions are not, you need a weapon that can carry you if your frame/weapon stash is not geared for late/end game. The ammo pool makes these difficult runs a very, very viable option. 

What I think you complainers are forgetting is that not every player wants to grind hours upon hours for mods, completing missions, parts, gear  etc, some of us do not have the spare time to do all that is required to have a badass end/late game weapon. There is NOTHING wrong with this sect of players having literally one weapon that can carry them if they are weaker or do not have 500 hours on this game logged, it is simply unfair to take away something from this group of players because the grinders don't feel like they deserve it. 

The Penta/Ogris is great because  you can get away with forma'ing this once and adding a potato, which allows you to easily take down the lvl 30-40 enemies, and that's generally the range that drops some of the most coveted crafting parts and/or mods. You can take a Penta/Ogris with you and a weaker frame into a T3 or T2 and be successful, due to both a large damage output and a huge ammo pool. 

simply put, There is a large section of players who both need this weapon to have it's large ammo pool for some of the rare item hunting, it shouldn't be only viable for players who have an insane amount of time on their hands who earned all their stuff to get the best drops. 


TL;dr
1. The penta/ogris helps players who have real life time constraints.
2. With the RNG being atrocious these days, players without best gear can at least make viable attempts to farm the rare items, and the ammo pool allows them to do that. 
3. For those whining about the ammo pool, you are not the only type of Warframe player out there, and those of us who are not you, have a right to keep this weapon as is. 


P.S.-sorry if grammar is a bit off but I am just sick and tired of seeing some posters whine about this and hopes DE does not alienate a whole demographic of Warframe players in hopes of appeasing a very small/and whiny group of players.  

Edited January 11, 2014 by nephalem87

[IIJetfireII]

ogris and penta forever :D ( same for their ammo :D )

Edited January 11, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII

[direcyphre]

The real reason Penta/Ogris don't need an ammo nerf: It doesn't matter what ammo you make it, they will still never run out.

[SpilockT_T]

One word=Balance.

[DiddlyMcGee]

The real reason Penta/Ogris don't need an ammo nerf: It doesn't matter what ammo you make it, they will still never run out.

sniper ammo

[Zephyric_Reaper]

Penta/ogris are camping weapons and are in line with trinity invincibility. Actually, they both go well together. 

However, they're overpowered. You just want to keep your toys and it's understandable. Because we definately more "I win" buttons.... 

All in all, I hope everything gets BALANCED by the time it ends beta. 

[nephalem87]

One word=Balance.

Here's the thing about that...you say "balance" but what that means is making weapons all too equal and making no real distinction between weaps, Definitely not that great for a F2p game, Some people want to have an awesome weapon and the Penta is one of them as well as the Ogris. 

[nephalem87]

Penta/ogris are camping weapons and are in line with trinity invincibility. Actually, they both go well together. 

However, they're overpowered. You just want to keep your toys and it's understandable. Because we definately more "I win" buttons.... 

All in all, I hope everything gets BALANCED by the time it ends beta. 

WHat you mean is they are a useful combination...

Useful =/= Overpowered. 

[bejuizb]

I don't know about you guys but the most ammo I've ever used in my Ogris was around 100 rockets in a T3. All of which can be easily recovered with sniper ammo mutation if required, so changing the ammo type isn't going to do diddly squat.

[LennoFF]

The Ogris is a rocket launcher.  A rocket launcher.  It will clearly do more damage than other weapons.  There's a fine line between overpowered and realism.  If the Ogris gets nerfed to do more balanced damage with other weapons, it'll lose it's realism as a rocket launcher.  It's a dojo weapon, it takes a bunch of credits and stuff to build, it has a mastery rank requirement, and most use a few forma (4 on mine), so the high damage it offers, I believe, is well worth what most players go through to make it that way. 

[mike29tw]

lol @ the wall of text.

 

A simple "I need my I win button" would suffice.

[nephalem87]

lol @ the wall of text.

 

A simple "I need my I win button" would suffice.

Say that to the Soma, Despair, and a handful of other weaps.....

[Temp0ralfool]

one of the things I like about the penta and ogris is that it eschews the usual approach of giving grenade launchers and rocket launchers a tiny ammo supply in favor of other approaches to balancing them (charge time for ogris, ease of suicide for penta), changing the ammo type would just be a cop out.

[AscendantWyvern]

Say that to the Soma, Despair, and a handful of other weaps.....

People have, and still do. The point is, those who cling to their "I win" weapons and frames are the very ones that make it difficult for balance to play out and end game to ACTUALLY be end game. And Last time I checked, changing the ammo pool is NOT a hard nerf...not in the slightest. As many have stated, even with sniper ammo pools, you will NOT run out of ammunition any time soon.

[AlienOvermind]

1. The penta/ogris helps players who have real life time constraints.

Hilarious reason. "I dont have time to play fair, because I have real life". By the way, in f2p games this constrain is usually lifted with real money. Like, if you don't have time to farm Ember Prime -> buy Prime Access. So, it you still want an easy way, just prepare to pay.

[Brimir]

The real reason Penta/Ogris don't need an ammo nerf: It doesn't matter what ammo you make it, they will still never run out.

 

Except it will. The problem isn't the 540 max ammo (altough it is still rather laughable) but the fact that you get 20 rockets/grenades per ammo pickup. That is what gives them infinite ammo.

[BlueIstari]

1. The penta/ogris helps players who have real life time constraints.

 

Irrelevant to ammo balance. Not having time to play and yet choosing to do so is a personal issue.

 

2. With the RNG being atrocious these days, players without best gear can at least make viable attempts to farm the rare items, and the ammo pool allows them to do that.

 

Again, irrelevant to ammo balance. RNG problems need to be solved by changing the RNG system. Giving one weapon tons of ammo doesn't do that.

 

3. For those whining about the ammo pool, you are not the only type of Warframe player out there, and those of us who are not you, have a right to keep this weapon as is.

 

Nobody is "whining". Those of us who are not YOU are just asking for changes to a design inconsistency. One has to wonder why less effective sniper-type weapons have such limited ammo, while more powerful explosive weapon variants that deal high damage to whole groups get a pass on ammo efficiency. If Ogris/Penta shouldn't have ammo concerns, neither should anything else. Such an opinion should speak volumes about how woefully unbalanced and insufficient Warframe's ammo system is, but nonetheless, the system exists, therefore they should use it.

[shut]

Let's take at the fastest of the Explosive weapons, the Penta.

Let's assume that the clip is 540 ammo. No reloads.

 

It's going to take you nine minutes to empty it. At base. Theoretical perfect click timing. No pickups. With each piece of ammo dishing out more damage over a bigger range than any other piece of ammo from any weapon in this game.

How can you possibly justify that?

 

 

 

There is no reason to not decrease the ammo of the explosives, or to change it to a "Special" ammo pool along with Snipers and Bows. "It won't have an effect on gameplay!" is not a reason. If anything, it only points out further how utterly ludicrous the ammo is.

 

To highlight this with an example: if you had a weapon that had ten billion damage per bullet, and the playerbase said "Let's nerf it to ten thousand damage per bullet!", then "No, it's not even going to make a difference in gameplay!" isn't exactly helping your case in insisting that the weapon isn't broken.

 

 

 

Honestly. The people making their faltering claims about how 540 ammo is fine are the same people who didn't want to see QT+R godmode go away and started lashing out at pro-balance players for "trying to ruin their fun".

Edited January 11, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Brimir]

Let's take at the fastest of the Explosive weapons, the Penta.

Let's assume that the clip is 540 ammo. No reloads.

 

It's going to take you nine minutes to empty it. At base. Theoretical perfect click timing. No pickups. With each piece of ammo dishing out more damage over a bigger range than any other piece of ammo from any weapon in this game.

How can you possibly justify that?

 

Well put. Very well put. But it is not gonna matter, you're just a "nerf whiner" to these people... :/

[DHKany]

WHat you mean is they are a useful combination...

Useful =/= Overpowered. 

 

Useful=/=16k damage per shot in a relatively gigantic AOE 

No, that is just stupidly overpowered. 

 

The Ogris is a rocket launcher.  A rocket launcher.  It will clearly do more damage than other weapons.  There's a fine line between overpowered and realism.  If the Ogris gets nerfed to do more balanced damage with other weapons, it'll lose it's realism as a rocket launcher.  It's a dojo weapon, it takes a bunch of credits and stuff to build, it has a mastery rank requirement, and most use a few forma (4 on mine), so the high damage it offers, I believe, is well worth what most players go through to make it that way. 

Oh get the f**k out with realism. There's a fine line between sticking to the gun archetype and hiding behind a sh*tty argument to keep your crutch. 

If you want a realistic game play Arma or something, DO NOT come to A GAME WITH SPACE NINJAS FIGHTING MEGA CORPORATIONS AND ALIEN ZOMBIES and cry about breaking the "realism" of a gun. 

 

If you want to take the realism argument even further, realistically speaking you shouldn't be able to slug around 540 rockets. 

realistically speaking you wouldn't be able to fire a rocket launcher while diving to side from a 30 foot fall. 

realistically speaking you wouldn't use rocket launchers unless against something that really needs blasting (i.e A tank, fortified settlements, etc.) 

etc. etc. etc.

 

Think before slapping on "hurr durr realism" to ANY argument in a VIDEO GAME. 

[birdei]

People have, and still do. The point is, those who cling to their "I win" weapons and frames are the very ones that make it difficult for balance to play out and end game to ACTUALLY be end game. And Last time I checked, changing the ammo pool is NOT a hard nerf...not in the slightest. As many have stated, even with sniper ammo pools, you will NOT run out of ammunition any time soon.

if nothing is gonna change then what is the fuss all about? if nothing is gonna change then why waste time and energy changing it with no net gain of anything. you just wanna change just to make you feel good or something?

[Dalu__Ka]

All other weapons have ammo restriction, these should as well.

Want to keep infinite ammo? Enter some cheat codes or something.

 

End of thread.

[Justin_Case001]

I agree that the Ogris/penta should NOT have their ammo nerfed.  I love having effectively infinite ammo.  Why can't people just sit back and enjoy a nice perk like this?  Why is it that people always complain anytime anything is this game is GOOD?  I know that there needs to be a certain amount of balance.  That's fine.  But the Ogris/penta are not game breaking.  Just enjoy the power.  It's FUN.  Why play a game like this if it's not fun?  This isn't like the hyper-realism of Metro, built around scavenging one bullet at a time.  Nerfing the Ogris ammo doesn't really change anything; it just makes it annoying.  DE, please don't take away the best reason to use the Ogris.

 

Just for the record, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I have never once complained about anything being OP in any video game, ever.  Not my style.  When something is powerful, I get one.  And I like it.  That doesn't mean I don't want challenge.  But I love being powerful. 

[Makya]

the best reason to use the Ogris.

...When it gets changed, use an Ammo Mutation, there, infinite ammo again.

[Dalu__Ka]

By this logic, why not give all weapons infinite ammo.