Explaining The Newest And Previous Bladestorm

[Azamagon]

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the current and previous incarnations of Bladestorm, with lots of misinformation being spread. So this is just a thread to explain the findings I personally experienced with both versions:

 

Previous version (the bleed proc)

* No clones were summoned

* He dealt 2000 slash damage (this was mitigated by resistances and armor)

* 100% bleed proc, dealing 4900 (0,35 * 2000 * 7) bleed damage. This 4900 damage was only affected by resistances (if I recall correctly), but not by armor nor did it depend on the actual initial attack's actual damage dealt. So even if the initial 2000 damage was reduced significantly by armor, this bleed DoT never was! Thus, you had guaranteed 4900 damage per target

 

Current version (the clone version)

* 2 clones are summoned, that help you attack random targets.

* Ash and each clone deals 2000 finisher damage, which completely ignores resistances and armor.

* It seems like the clones add to your combo multiplier as well (not sure though)

* Ash can attack a single target over and over again, until it dies or you run out of "targettings"! This can lock you down for quite a long time, which kinda defeats the purpose of trying to speed it up with the clones.

 

Both versions add to and are affected by the melee combo multiplier.

 

Personally, I'd like it to be changed to be a mix of the 2 versions:

* Clones are summoned

* Ash and his clones only attack one target each (no repeated attacks on a single target, so you aren't stuck in a long animation), each attack dealing 2000 slash damage with 100% bleed proc.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Where you see a flaw I see an important aspect to balancing the game. Right now it has a pretty big drawback to the damage it does, this is not a flaw. The drawback gives the ability an element of "Only push 4 if you need to and when you can afford to", unlike (after the toggle update) every other ultimate in the game. This is not a flaw with this ability, its a balance problem with other abilities and the game in general from my perspective. People all over the forums complain about "Push 4 to win" gameplay being the only gameplay. Yet when an ultimate isn't push 4 to insta kill the room people seem to get upset. The community can't seem to figure out what it wants as a whole. That is part of the reason when parts of the community go "We want X to change" and it would cause very apparent balance issues I tend to not like it. Mainly because after it happens 5-10 threads pop up going "X change that we asked for sucks now that we actually play it", "It wasn't implemented the way we wanted", "This change is terrible DE what were you thinking", or "it's way to OP change it back." I'm willing to bet speeding up bladestorm (im assuing to ~5 seconds unless you're not doing the animations its all clones in which case basically instant) will have the same effect. 

 

Im tired of replying to all of these threads, with anything worth while. I preferred old bladestorm here is why. (this was pre 13.5 change, which I don't like)

[RealPandemonium]

The essence of Blade Storm is that you trade speed and aoe potential for high (execution level) damage and safety. 

 

The13.3.0 buff to Blade Storm accomplished this by giving it huge damage potential.  The Slash procs ignored armor, resistances, and shields and did huge damage over time (10k total damage before power strength mods.)  The added ability of Blade Storm to increase and use the melee combo multiplier to boost its damage further ensured that the damage would not become irrelevant until late in T3 defenses and survivals.  Using a 57% strength 75% efficiency build you get 10834 damage per strike.  Over the course of the ability you will build up a melee combo multiplier (1.5x after 5 hits, 2x after 15 hits.)  Each blade storm attack can add between 1 and 4 hits to the counter.  Assuming you get 2 hits on average: 2 * 15 = 30 average hits, so you would be doing double damage by the end of the ability assuming you hit all 15 targets.  On top of that you could start a melee combo before casting the ability, starting with a 1.5x or 2x damage multiplier, or just cast twice in a row to get 2x damage and eventually 2.5x damage after a 45 combo. 10834 * 2 = 21668, a huge amount of damage.  The drawback of this is that the ability takes time to run its course and that much of the damage is in the form of a damage-over-time effect that last 6 seconds.

 

13.3.0 Blade Storm Pros:

-Huge damage

-Ignores armor, shields, and resistances

-makes you invulnerable to everything (including proc damage) and allows you to recover shield

-Carrier's Vacuum functions normally

-Can be cast from a 50m distance and activates instantly

-Increases and can be boosted by the melee combo multiplier

 

13.3.0 Blade Storm Cons:

-Locks you in an animation for a potentially long time

-Number of targets capped at 15

-Much of the damage occurs over 6 seconds rather than instantly

 

13.3.0 gave Blade Storm the damage it deserved while also doubling as a defensive skill, regenerating shields and avoid area damage and DoT effects (potentially healing and restoring energy/ammo if Carrier picked things up during it.)  At the same time the damage was not front-loaded and prevented you from doing other things while the ability occured.  This made the player have to think before casting it and kept the ability's power in check to an extent in addition to differentiating it from generic radial nukes. 

 

The latest changes to the skill (13.5.0) remove most of its defensive benefit (duration is very short,) remove most of its damage (Slash procs were tremendous,) and make it disorienting (the animation is too sped up and the clones appear haphazardly all over the place.)  It is now effectively a generic nuke ability that is mindless to spam, yet weaker than its last incarnation.

 

I fear that these changes were made to appease a vocal group of feedback-suppliers who do not play Ash and never appreciated the good things about him, people who claim "he's an inferior Loki," "he's only good for solo," "he doesn't kill fast enough," etc.  Those who appreciated Blade Storm's nuances and potential have been thrown under the bus after enjoying 13.3.0's buff for a brief two weeks. 

 

Edit: Fixed erroneous damage number.

Edited May 30, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[MarcusGraves]

if the damage is considered finisher damage does that mean finishing touch will buff the damage or is it for the ground and stealth attacks only still?

[RealPandemonium]

if the damage is considered finisher damage does that mean finishing touch will buff the damage or is it for the ground and stealth attacks only still?

Still only those special maneuvers. 

 

* 100% bleed proc, dealing 4900 (0,35 * 2000 * 7) bleed damage. This 4900 damage was only affected by resistances

Slash procs deal Finisher damage, which ignores resistances.

 

I would like to add that while I would prefer for Blade Storm to be reverted to its 13.3.0 incarnation I would not be averse to a 20% animation speed-up.  I also like the idea of revisiting surviving targets when less than 15 are affected; the clones would be perfect for performing these extra hits (executing the survivors with a flurry of clone attacks would be cool as hell as well as practical.)

Edited May 30, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[shut]

I fear that these changes were made to appease a vocal group of feedback-suppliers who do not play Ash and never appreciated the good things about him, people who claim ... "he doesn't kill fast enough,"

 

Is this implying that pre-13.5 Blade Storm did, indeed, kill fast enough?

 

Ash player here. I disagree with this statement entirely. Weapons were generally more efficient. Prior to the fixing of the Blade-Storm-preventing-Finishers glitch, even strategies like Teleporting to a group, casting Smokescreen, and then whacking everything in sight killed faster and more efficiently than Blade Storm.

 

What the Ult had was defensive utility, but not much more.

[RealPandemonium]

Is this implying that pre-13.5 Blade Storm did, indeed, kill fast enough?

 

Ash player here. I disagree with this statement entirely. Weapons were generally more efficient. Prior to the fixing of the Blade-Storm-preventing-Finishers glitch, even strategies like Teleporting to a group, casting Smokescreen, and then whacking everything in sight killed faster and more efficiently than Blade Storm.

 

What the Ult had was defensive utility, but not much more.

It was also the only way to efficiently kill high level, high armor targets without bringing an overpowered weapon with the appropriate element.  Boltor Prime and stealth-boosted Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana are gonna out-damage any abilities, period.  Comparing abilities to weapons is a flawed approach to appraising an ability's value.  

 

13.3.0 Blade Storm killed enemies with certainty.  You could mark them for death and they would surely die, whether you had an OP weapon available or not, and you could focus on your next objective after recovering from the animation.  Blade Storm's current incarnation is a weaker, "spam until everything is dead" kind of skill that is more similar to Miasma, Avalanche, and the rest of the radial nukes.  Admittedly, Ash was slower to kill large groups of enemies before but that was fine; not every frame needs to be able to wave-clear enemies.  Ash is an assassin that neutralizes the cell's most dangerous enemies, not a wizard that AOEs everything to death.   

[shut]

It was also the only way to efficiently kill high level, high armor targets without bringing an overpowered weapon with the appropriate element.  Boltor Prime and stealth-boosted Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana are gonna out-damage any abilities, period.  Comparing abilities to weapons is a flawed approach to appraising an ability's value.  

 

I don't see what's flawed about it. Weapons are designed to kill things, and pure-damage Abilities like Blade Storm are designed to kill things. When the weapons are doing a better job at killing stuff than a made-to-kill ability that costs 100 energy, then that sort of points out a flaw with the ability.

 

Don't get me wrong, there's some utility that Bladestorm has that weapons don't (of course), but the fact remains that even the heavenly 13.3 Blade Storm was used more for defensive purposes than offensive, which went against its intended role in gameplay.

 

 

 

13.3.0 Blade Storm killed enemies with certainty.  You could mark them for death and they would surely die, whether you had an OP weapon available or not, and you could focus on your next objective after recovering from the animation.  Blade Storm's current incarnation is a weaker, "spam until everything is dead" kind of skill that is more similar to Miasma, Avalanche, and the rest of the radial nukes.  Admittedly, Ash was slower to kill large groups of enemies before but that was fine; not every frame needs to be able to wave-clear enemies.  Ash is an assassin that neutralizes the cell's most dangerous enemies, not a wizard that AOEs everything to death.   

 

I don't see the problem? Blade Storm is still perfectly capable of neutralizing a cell's most dangerous enemies (even more so than 13.3.0 Blade Storm's, in fact, when you take into account the fact that survivors can be hit multiple times in one cast). The difference is that it's simply done much faster.

"Neutralizing the cell's most dangerous enemies" and "wizard that AOEs everything to death" are not necessarily opposite sides of the same coin.

[RahuHordika]

I'd like to point out Lyssas suggestion to make the clones an optional feature i.e. spawn them at choice by pressing 4 again. This means Bladestorm gets to keep it's former utility as well as keeping the satifying aesthetic aspect intact, and ofr course for the sake of those that do need to get thing to be done quicker, a sentiment that I can comprehend, the clones can the be spawned for a faster dispatch of enemies.

It is clear however now that as it is now the power is a little bugged, doesn't make sense that it lost some of it's former features. All in all, keeping Bladestorm the way it is now (teleport to guys and stab them) I think this could be the best suggestion by far, and it's relatively simple.

[Rabidbluedeath]

 

I don't see what's flawed about it. Weapons are designed to kill things, and pure-damage Abilities like Blade Storm are designed to kill things. When the weapons are doing a better job at killing stuff than a made-to-kill ability that costs 100 energy, then that sort of points out a flaw with the ability.

 

Don't get me wrong, there's some utility that Bladestorm has that weapons don't (of course), but the fact remains that even the heavenly 13.3 Blade Storm was used more for defensive purposes than offensive, which went against its intended role in gameplay.

 

 

 

 

I don't see the problem? Blade Storm is still perfectly capable of neutralizing a cell's most dangerous enemies (even more so than 13.3.0 Blade Storm's, in fact, when you take into account the fact that survivors can be hit multiple times in one cast). The difference is that it's simply done much faster.

"Neutralizing the cell's most dangerous enemies" and "wizard that AOEs everything to death" are not necessarily opposite sides of the same coin.

 

Firestorm Ogris is still going to kill faster and for higher levels. Its still behind weapons, every ability is. 

 

Don't completely agree, the great thing was you could still do good useful damage WHILE recovering, not hiding in a corner while you regen. 

 

Only as capable if you have left-over targets in the 15 count. If you had max targets they wont get hit again. Old bladestorm basically made certain all 15 targets were going to die, regardless of level/armor/shields. The only thing this change does better is satisfies the "I gotta go fast" crowd, which had plenty of other frames before.

[Azamagon]

To be honest, I dunno which version I liked the best.

 

The previous version (bleedproc) was better at taking out heavy units (without spending too much time on the heavy unit), but worse for big crowds.

The current version is better at taking out smaller/weaker crowds, but worse for the REALLY healthy units (not damagewise, but TIMEwise).

 

I still stand by my suggestion that a compromise would be the best: Clones + Bleedproc + NOT revisiting surviving targets seems to be the best option. Then you have:

 

* Clones helps with the speed a lot. While you could say it is indeed satisfying the "gotta go fast!" crowd, speed IS important, especially in gamemodes like Survival (where Ash actually excels quite well). And even with the clones it is STILL one of the slower ultimates anyway.

* Not revisiting surviving targets means you are not locked in the animation forever + it doesn't make the power ridiculously strong in damage against single targets.

* Bleedprocs means that each assaulted target is "marked for death". Maybe not guaranteed death, but it still does its job for quite a long while.

 

Even with that suggestion, I'm still torn on it a little bit. While I think my suggestion would be the most practical, the revisit-survivors-thing is cool as well, because that makes the ultimate very unique. Decisions, decisions...

[Rabidbluedeath]

To be honest, I dunno which version I liked the best.

 

The previous version (bleedproc) was better at taking out heavy units (without spending too much time on the heavy unit), but worse for big crowds.

The current version is better at taking out smaller/weaker crowds, but worse for the REALLY healthy units (not damagewise, but TIMEwise).

 

I still stand by my suggestion that a compromise would be the best: Clones + Bleedproc + NOT revisiting surviving targets seems to be the best option. Then you have:

 

* Clones helps with the speed a lot. While you could say it is indeed satisfying the "gotta go fast!" crowd, speed IS important, especially in gamemodes like Survival (where Ash actually excels quite well). And even with the clones it is STILL one of the slower ultimates anyway.

* Not revisiting surviving targets means you are not locked in the animation forever + it doesn't make the power ridiculously strong in damage against single targets.

* Bleedprocs means that each assaulted target is "marked for death". Maybe not guaranteed death, but it still does its job for quite a long while.

 

Even with that suggestion, I'm still torn on it a little bit. While I think my suggestion would be the most practical, the revisit-survivors-thing is cool as well, because that makes the ultimate very unique. Decisions, decisions...

The bleed proc is near useless while revisitng survivors. whats the point of adding a 6 second DoT that does over double the initial hit if you are going to kill it before the DoT does anything? Wasting the strikes if you ask me. The "gotta go fast!" crowd had 10 other options before. now its the only option. Do you not see a problem with making everything play the same? its still the slowest ability by double (radial javelin is ~2.5 seconds total) but its by far stronger than all others. (6900 damage not counting mods/combo count). Ember is the next closest at 2800 fire damage I believe.

[Azamagon]

The bleed proc is near useless while revisitng survivors. whats the point of adding a 6 second DoT that does over double the initial hit if you are going to kill it before the DoT does anything? Wasting the strikes if you ask me. The "gotta go fast!" crowd had 10 other options before. now its the only option. Do you not see a problem with making everything play the same? its still the slowest ability by double (radial javelin is ~2.5 seconds total) but its by far stronger than all others. (6900 damage not counting mods/combo count). Ember is the next closest at 2800 fire damage I believe.

... Seriously? Did you actually read what I wrote?

 

Let me make it clear for you:

Clones + Bleedproc +  >>> NOT <<<  revisiting surviving targets.

 

Did you miss the "NOT" this time as well? -.-

[notionphil]

you guys know the missing bleedproc was fixed right?

 

 

Hotfix 13.5.1:

 

..

 

Fixes:

 

- Fixed Bladestorm not forcing a Bleed Proc on targets that Ash (or clone) is attacking.

- Fixed Bladestorm being a guaranteed kill on Zanuka and Grustrag 3 if cast.

Edited May 30, 2014 by notionphil

[Rabidbluedeath]

... Seriously? Did you actually read what I wrote?

 

Let me make it clear for you:

Clones + Bleedproc +  >>> NOT <<<  revisiting surviving targets.

 

Did you miss the "NOT" this time as well? -.-

first part was agreeing with you. the revisit is stupid and redundant. Second part I still don't like the clones. Would just prefer pre 13.5 bladestorm sorry that was unclear.