Level Design: Is Running All That We Do?

[Psychen]

I bring upon you all this question in order to create some discussion and hopefully to create some insight into a different approach for levels.

 

*This is not about proposing more mission types, but to pursue suggestions on improving their complexity.

 

 

Current situation:

Right now, all our missions (except Defense) are based in completing an objective and running to extraction, all of this with a constant need for running and power-killing every bit of trash mobs that we actually consider worth killing.

 

Even in Defense maps you need to constantly be running if you want to catch loot (the Carriers' vacuum range is far to insignificant since enemies can die from 1cm to +50m from you).

 

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How to brake this chain and introduce something different?

 

I get the point that we are ninjas, we are always supposed to be on move, enter and leave silently (when stealth gameplay is actually viable).

 

Still, rushing levels and running to extraction gets highly monotonous. It's important to have a balance between the effort and end-reward (not like the current Void Defense missions).

 

 

So, what is your opinion about this subject, any suggestions?

[Psychen]

I decided to write my own suggestions in a different post and not the Main one to keep it clearer and to avoid making it only about what I wrote:

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Barriers->

Grineer: Mounted Cannon/ Heavy machinegun

Corpus: Electric Landmines/ Electric Fence

Infested: Contaminated area or virus/ Aberration blocking the path

 

Something that makes a halt, regroup, develop strategy, and attack. Even if it's a mining tank going in your direction and you need to move back and shoot it down. 

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Ambush->

Do you remember this phrase?: "It appears there's some viable intel aboard this ship" (or something similar)

What if something like this appeared instead: "It's a trap! You'll need to fight your way out of this Tenno." (or perhaps a Grineer general sends a message like "We got you now Tenno, prepare to meet your doom!"). 

[Notice I mentioned fight, not run over to extraction; this means something will have to be strong enough to hold passage].

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Extraction->

Some sort of smooth-extraction could help counter the need for extraction and the 1 minute timer until everyone arrives.

For example, an Assassination on an open map, you would have to wait 5m to be extracted at that place, while the *ship personnel* would try to kill you.

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Labyrinths/ Puzzles->

This would make players progress slightly slower through the mission. Randomizing patterns for each puzzle can be though, but not always necessary.

What if you had to avoid a corridor of indestructible security cameras, when each of them would either activate a specific turret (or an instantaneous stun aoe) or increase the mission difficulty with more mobs. 

Let's face it, the current void traps are pretty simple to over-run (they actually make beginners to void stay further behind).

[ProjectKaeon]

Or have a difficult mini boss near the extraction like an ambush. That way your teammates that are falling behind will have to catch up at some point.

 

Like a Vor Henchmen, : You have defeated Captain Vor?! You Will Pay!   Or maybe : I was waiting for Vor to die, Now it's my turn to take over!

 

That kind of vibe

Edited November 7, 2013 by NBlitZ

[bobafetthotmail]

A basic requirement for this to work is implementing actually good AI and a nerf to damage dealt by ultimates.

 

Because.... pressing 4 multiple times will trivialize anything you care to put up.

 

 

Then you can add that.

[bejuizb]

The only thing to keep in mind is that this system will anger a lot of players constantly farming for blueprints or drops, since it reduces the effectiveness of the grind.

[Psychen]

A basic requirement for this to work is implementing actually good AI and a nerf to damage dealt by ultimates.

 

Because.... pressing 4 multiple times will trivialize anything you care to put up.

 

 

Then you can add that.

 

The ultis can be a problem if there aren't any kind of counter-measures. Still mini-bosses can be immune to most skills like the normal bosses, while some traps in the game are also not possible to destroy with skills.

 

The only thing to keep in mind is that this system will anger a lot of players constantly farming for blueprints or drops, since it reduces the effectiveness of the grind.

 

True, no doubt. That's why the end-reward part needs to be balanced like it isn't happening with the t3 def when comparing to t3 survival. Although meantime it would offer something different to the meaningless grinding.

[Drifter11]

Ok,I agree that stealth gameplay definitely needs attention.

 

I think we should have missions that are specifically and obviously stealth-encouraged. In these missions, stealth should be strictly practiced and if the players are unsuccessful in doing so, then massive consequences should arrive, such as a huge spawn of higher level enemies, a mission countdown timer that must be reached, an extra objective, or perhaps even flat out failure of the mission itself.

[fatpig84]

Ok,I agree that stealth gameplay definitely needs attention.

 

I think we should have missions that are specifically and obviously stealth-encouraged. In these missions, stealth should be strictly practiced and if the players are unsuccessful in doing so, then massive consequences should arrive, such as a huge spawn of higher level enemies, a mission countdown timer that must be reached, an extra objective, or perhaps even flat out failure of the mission itself.

 

Isn't that what happens ?

 

In a perfect stealth run of my loki, I can walk through 3 rooms with no one except a guard strolling around. I can even get away with 0 kills or even less than 10 or 20 kills because there is so few enemies.

In comparison my Excalibur slaughters triple digit figures of enemies.

 

And silly loack downs.

 

You get mission count downs after performing a sabotage.

Extra objectives..... They happen way too often, so i prefer not.

 

Those are the consequences.

 

Flat out failure other than death is harsh on new players and I don't encourage it.

And considering some mission nodes are already so light played, this is really bad form.

Edited November 8, 2013 by fatpig84

[CY13ERPUNK]

I decided to write my own suggestions in a different post and not the Main one to keep it clearer and to avoid making it only about what I wrote:

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Barriers->

Grineer: Mounted Cannon/ Heavy machinegun

Corpus: Electric Landmines/ Electric Fence

Infested: Contaminated area or virus/ Aberration blocking the path

 

Something that makes a halt, regroup, develop strategy, and attack. Even if it's a mining tank going in your direction and you need to move back and shoot it down. 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Ambush->

Do you remember this phrase?: "It appears there's some viable intel aboard this ship" (or something similar)

What if something like this appeared instead: "It's a trap! You'll need to fight your way out of this Tenno." (or perhaps a Grineer general sends a message like "We got you now Tenno, prepare to meet your doom!"). 

[Notice I mentioned fight, not run over to extraction; this means something will have to be strong enough to hold passage].

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Extraction->

Some sort of smooth-extraction could help counter the need for extraction and the 1 minute timer until everyone arrives.

For example, an Assassination on an open map, you would have to wait 5m to be extracted at that place, while the *ship personnel* would try to kill you.

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Labyrinths/ Puzzles->

This would make players progress slightly slower through the mission. Randomizing patterns for each puzzle can be though, but not always necessary.

What if you had to avoid a corridor of indestructible security cameras, when each of them would either activate a specific turret (or an instantaneous stun aoe) or increase the mission difficulty with more mobs. 

Let's face it, the current void traps are pretty simple to over-run (they actually make beginners to void stay further behind).

+1 this ^^^^

also : NON-LINEAR map generator

currently the map tile randomizer always generates a roughly linear (sometimes a few dead ends) map, if the generator could be designed to generate maps with alternate paths, say 3-4 alternate paths, then the missions could have MUCH move diversity in how you reach an objective and each different path could have different obstacles to get through (ie stealth path, barricade path, etc, etc, just to not even be creative at all)

[Drifter11]

Isn't that what happens ?

 

Not really. Being seen is pretty much always something you can deal with. I think the stakes should be higher. 

[tmtke]

Yeah, the map generator needs some love in all regards, maybe except defense maps. There are some differences which are possibly simple parameters depending on game type I think (capture always have 2 escape starship rooms, etc.), but this could be improved further, like:

* Survival maps should have a circular layout with some additional enemy spawning rooms, + a starting room and the extraction room (which doors are opening up only after the minimum time limit)

* Sabotage have to be non linear (more routes to the objective and the extraction to be precise)

* In rescue, the jail room might be better moved closer to the starting point with more route to extraction (and would be funny if in nightmare mode one of the players were become the prisoner, starting with no ammo and energy, and the other three have to rescue him first :))

* Spying missions should have a maze like map layout with an interconnected room network, where a bunch of targets are placed in different rooms, needed to be scanned (therefore players can solo different targets separatedly or move in groups).

* I think deception is the least played game type - in terms of map layout it could be similar to sabotage, but needs a more polished gameplay to be interesting.

* Mobile defense is ok, but the terminals could be more scattered through the map (but it's not really necessary)

[Drifter11]

I totally agree, there is far too much running and it's all due to gameplay design. I think that larger missions that are played out in a series of short stages, where one area must be completed before proceeding to the next, would help. Defense missions are ok. Survival missions I think are a little better because players get to "hold" a part of the map for a while before moving on.

[-Mandachordian-Tenno-]

Yeah, the map generator needs some love in all regards, maybe except defense maps. There are some differences which are possibly simple parameters depending on game type I think (capture always have 2 escape starship rooms, etc.), but this could be improved further, like:

* Survival maps should have a circular layout with some additional enemy spawning rooms, + a starting room and the extraction room (which doors are opening up only after the minimum time limit)

* Sabotage have to be non linear (more routes to the objective and the extraction to be precise)

* In rescue, the jail room might be better moved closer to the starting point with more route to extraction (and would be funny if in nightmare mode one of the players were become the prisoner, starting with no ammo and energy, and the other three have to rescue him first :))

* Spying missions should have a maze like map layout with an interconnected room network, where a bunch of targets are placed in different rooms, needed to be scanned (therefore players can solo different targets separatedly or move in groups).

* I think deception is the least played game type - in terms of map layout it could be similar to sabotage, but needs a more polished gameplay to be interesting.

* Mobile defense is ok, but the terminals could be more scattered through the map (but it's not really necessary)

the nightmare rescue mission is cool but it would cooler if four if you were the in prison no ammo/energy at all like a jailbreak, the lotus has an operative disguised a an enemy unit which will give you/ open the cell and bring back comms to the lotus thats my suggestion.. but i like your idea too :)

[Trentnes]

The weak map generator and mission design are definitively the biggest barriers to my enjoyment of this game - even more so than the lack of stealth.  There is nothing to the usual mission. Run shoot run,  no sense of actually going anywhere, no need think or change pace. 

 

I like all of the suggestions in the thread so far, in particular the barriers and ambushes.  There have got to be a few occasions when the enemy has it together enough to think "Ok, maybe we should pull back to a defensive position rather than let the murder ninja pick us off a few at a time." 

 

In addition, how about some targets of opportunity that come as a result of players taking their time and searching the ship.  "Excellent Teno, the codes on that ID you found gave me access to another sector of the ship"

[sewens]

I like the one grineer asteroid tile with the platforming section. I missed it when it went out of circulation for a while.

 

All of these suggestions are amazing, I'd love them in-game with different obstacles appearing on different map nodes. Personally I'd like it if there were branching paths in place of the occasional two-panel door where you need to go down one path and turn back to go down the other and progress. Maybe a sabotage variant where three players need to split up and coordinate to shut down a generator.

Edited January 13, 2014 by sewens

[Drifter11]

In addition, how about some targets of opportunity that come as a result of players taking their time and searching the ship.  "Excellent Teno, the codes on that ID you found gave me access to another sector of the ship"

 

^This. Maps should gradually open up to the players in small increments that require all players to be present at the gateway to the next portion of the map. This way, we could cut down on sprinting through the map. Having the doors require two people to open works this way a little bit, but it's not enough. I think more of the level designs should make this a priority, and also adding changes to the tileset once you reach a new area would help reduce the monotony, so it feels like you are traveling somewhere.

[mooser6]

I think anything that encourages team play over run-and-disperse-trash-mobs is good.

 

Coordinated Strike would be a fun mission type that encourages something a little extra. To make it viable there would have to be two separate bosses that need to be taken down within X seconds of eachother, so unfortunately these missions would not be available to solo players, but the whole point is to encourage team play (not team sprinting), so... no worries.

 

As long as the bosses are difficult enough it would be a decent challenge requiring splitting up and communication between teams (or two players) with mission failure as a penalty for not coordinating closely enough.

 

 

Non-linear maps would be a great upgrade to the map generator. It would also be fun to add one or two trap areas into a map, where the team is likely to get downed or have serious trouble attempting to run through. Result is either strong team play to make it through, or back out and take a different route. The areas could either be full of overpowered enemies or some sort of highly damaging effect, possibly even some road block that requires one person to clear while another covers their back.

 

 

 

Realm of the Mad God implements a lot of these kind of ideas in the higher level dungeons/bosses. Yeah it's an MMO, but the developers did a pretty good job with the higher level and end game challenges (they're actually challenging and require team work).

[Drifter11]

I would like to see more dynamic heist-style missions where players must equip craftable gear that is unique to each particular heist.

 

For instance, perhaps one player needs to equip a cutting torch to cut through an otherwise impassable wall or vault door. While he's doing that, his teammates would have to defend him (because maybe an alarm goes off). Another player might need to equip a welder to bind their entry back in place, otherwise the players might get overrun by enemies.

 

I'd like to see more in-depth hacking, starting with a more varied and complex mini-game. But in addition to this, hacking should enable players to open new or special doors, new parts of the map, control cameras, turrets, drones, or environmental functions. So maybe one player equips a special hacking tool that enables him to perform these special hacking feats.

 

Sniping positions and opportunities could be improved. Perhaps while part of the team is busy breaking in to a certain part of the mission, it's imperative for one player to take up a position in a watch tower or similar advantageous spot, so that he can cover the rest of his team more easily than if he were on the ground with them.

 

Stuff like this is what I want and hope to see. Unique roles for team members and more dynamic missions.

[NitroMidgets]

Not going to happen. These ideas are great. They have been mentioned before. That along with not breaking up squads after Void missions, setting team goals in the global window to differentiate between rushers and explorers, stopping mission leeching, etc. We have been waiting over a year for those things. Maybe in another year they will get to your ideas.

[tmtke]

Not going to happen. These ideas are great. They have been mentioned before. That along with not breaking up squads after Void missions, setting team goals in the global window to differentiate between rushers and explorers, stopping mission leeching, etc. We have been waiting over a year for those things. Maybe in another year they will get to your ideas.

 

Please, be more constructive. As a developer myself, I do know how much work this is. It's pretty easy to say: "create a more diverse map creation algorithm" - I also have said something like this (above), but in a bit detailed form. If you look around on the net on this topic, it's actually a really hardcore stuff, and while not without some nice results, they are far from perfect in the most of the cases - main thing is generated maps currently are far in quality to human designed maps in playability. On the other topics, yes, you are right, but balancing the game against all possible exploits is the second hardest topic I think.

[NitroMidgets]

I have been more constructive. In fact not bothering to suggest more features while we have already been waiting for so many other features for over a year now is actually constructive. Failing to fix already known issues or add features requested a year ago in order to add new weapons or recently suggested features isn't constructive either. 

 

I have already seen that most of my friends are moving on from the game for many of the reasons I mentioned. I doubt they will return simply because they made wall running more important or because they added yet another weapon. There are a few games coming this Spring that will rob more players from DE. I guess we will see if they can get caught up and finally add some diversity to the game while trying to compete with newer and fresher games.