I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[Stefanovich]

EDIT: I give up. This is just as pointless as I thought. Everyone has already gone corrupt with power, and their precious crutch Boltor Prime is the only thing holding them in 5 hour survivals, so there is nothing I can do on the forums.

 

Useless "No." posts have already been rooted, people are insulting me for no reason, and balance has been thrown out the window within minutes.

 

I am also thoroughly convinced half a dozen people did not read my reasoning to this, as I clearly pointed out this change would still leave Boltor Prime more powerful than Braton Prime, Burston Prime, and about every other Prime, yet they argue "primes should be more powerful, so no nerf."

 

I'm done. DE, it's up to you to buckle up and do what needs to be done. You did it with Nova, you can do it with Boltor Prime.

 

BlantantFool, Letter13, Silverbones, just lock the thread if you deem it necessary. This thread has been burnt to the ground within minutes.

 

Now I know why _Nugget quit Warframe.

 

A shame. This is just a shame.

 

Now I know what you're thinking...

 

 

BUT...It's seriously out of line and needs to be dealt with soon before everyone becomes spoiled with it's power (it's already starting to happen!)

 

No, I am not butthurt because I can't get it. I have it and it's potato'd as well.

 

No, I am not "whining", "crying" or "ruining endgame".

 

DE claimed that they are balancing everything around level 30-40 enemies, and Boltor Prime already wipes the floor with every living thing on the star chart. Just because this weapon will be less effective on level 100 enemies, doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. You cannot balance around infinity.

 

All I'm asking for is to take the 50 Puncture Damage and reduce it to 35 Puncture Damage. Even with this change, it deals 10 more base damage than the Braton Prime, and beats it in every other field, except in reload speed.

 

Braton Prime has a 0.2 faster reload speed.

 

Other than that, Boltor Prime will still outclass it in every category, but won't be such an incredible outlier in the game, while still being a really solid rifle in the game.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Stefanovich

[immolator1001]

I have the boltor prime forma'd a couple times and only use it if I plan on going to obscenely high levels. I think Prime Weapons should be the goal and deserve to be hard to find and more powerful.

[Stefanovich]

No.

 

No.

 

I am thinking on PMing every moderator to remove every single post that is just, "No.", as it literally adds nothing to the discussion, wastes everyone's time, and takes up space on our monitors.

 

And everyone else, please stop giving these idiotic posts a thumbs up. It only encourages this wasteful trend to be repeated.

[VKhaun]

This isn't even an argument. No one likes to see anything nerfed so it looks like it's an argument/discussion on the forums, but it's clearly not. DE doesn't even ask design council before nerfs (and that's a good thing). They nerf as needed and they rework as needed. It's one of the things I'm still optimistic about.

[slykidd]

personally i dont agree with you. i think these weapons are supposed to be very powerful! they are the prime version of their counterpart nerfing weapons that you think are OP is not how i would balance it. also im gonna thumbs up their comment because you asked me not too :)

[izzatuw]

I am thinking on PMing every moderator to remove every single post that is just, "No.", as it literally adds nothing to the discussion, wastes everyone's time, and takes up space on our monitors.

 

And everyone else, please stop giving these idiotic posts a thumbs up. It only encourages this wasteful trend to be repeated.

Maybe because this is practically a nerf thread about Boltor Prime which they've seen before. DE has stated that they might tier weapons.

[BrotherIcarus]

Ye it does not render every weapon in the game obsolete so no. 

[immolator1001]

personally i dont agree with you. i think these weapons are supposed to be very powerful! they are the prime version of their counterpart nerfing weapons that you think are OP is not how i would balance it. also im gonna thumbs up their comment because you asked me not too :)

This.

 

And I'm fine with the Boltor Prime being powerful as long as other primes are at the same level. The latron Prime and paris prime are god tier with the boltor. And the burston and Boar are the best of their weapon types. I do think the braton prime should receive a buff to pre-damage 2.0 levels.

 

 

Basically all prime side arms need a buff but most prime melee weapons are very good.

[Angius]

Primes are supposed to hit hard to be able to kill those frickin' bulletsponges the game throws at us at higher levels. If somebody uses Boltor Prime on Appolodorus, well... It's purely his fault that he won't be enjoying it.

 

No nerfs, please. If you feel, that your 8-Forma Boltor Prime is too OP for Xini, then just switch for unmodded regular Boltor, simple as that.

[SHADOWSTORM-NZ]

No I think primes should be more powerful. And not every weapon in the game should be on the same level. If your finding it too OP, dont use it. Leave the boltor prime as it is.

[Tali]

Well Boltor P certainly is effective in killing everything but i wouldnt say that it makes other weapons obsolete, they dont deal as much damage but still they are good enough for relative high waves, grakata is good example, it has low damage but makes up for that with crit and status. Personally i wouldnt mind a little damage reduction on Boltor P, as long it is not nerfed to the ground.

[Metalarcher]

If no one wants Boltor Prime to be nerfed, then other Prime weapons need to be buff, along with hard-to-obtain research and stalker weapons, to create the "tiers" DE talked about so long ago.  Because right now Boltor Prime is on its own tier, far above all other weapons...

 

So it's either inflate the numbers so there's not one instant win gun for all situations, nerf Boltor Prime for the same reasons, or do nothing and have an OP gun that outclasses basically all others forever.  Get that gun and you're done.  No need to make any others.

 

Pick one option.

[APBladeX]

I am thinking on PMing every moderator to remove every single post that is just, "No.", as it literally adds nothing to the discussion, wastes everyone's time, and takes up space on our monitors.

 

And everyone else, please stop giving these idiotic posts a thumbs up. It only encourages this wasteful trend to be repeated.

We are allowed to voice our opinion, even if it's simply a no. Prime weapons are goals that players want to achieve, and are difficult to obtain. Nerfing these would just waste everyone's time that was used to obtain these parts. Have you even tried the Boltor Prime in "endgame"? I think you are over exaggerating it's usefulness. Every weapon stops being effective at a certain point, mainly from level 40-100+. If this train of nerfs continue, we won't be able to hold our ground in high level content. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by APBladeX

[Cursor]

This is not a flame war, stop turning it into one. This is a serious problem. Power Creep has already rendered dozens of weapons useless.

 

Don't even try and tell me that Furax still has it's place in Warframe, or Bronco, or Hind, or Supra. They all have been reduced to mastery fodder because of weapons like Boltor Prime.

 

These 1st generation weapons have been left in the dust thanks to power creep, and buffing every other weapon to match Boltor Prime is just building on the power creep.

 

This truly gets to the crux of why weapons like Boltor Prime need to be brought in line. Power Creep.

 

Does anyone remember when Boltor, just Boltor, was an amazing gun? I do. Or Gorgon. Anything. But that isn't the case now. Every time a new weapon is released that even marginally steps outside the bounds of what is reasonable, it opens the door for even stronger weapons in the future. Damage and other stats need to be normalized, and kept within a general range with only a few justified outliers, or else this is a pattern that has no end.

[Xhos]

Dude, look. Tenno are supposed to be like "lol vaporize" kind of guys. So you're telling me you want us to be the vaporized? Just tell me dude. If anything needs a nerf, the high level enemies do.

[immolator1001]

These 1st generation weapons have been left in the dust thanks to power creep, and buffing every other weapon to match Boltor Prime is just building on the power creep.

 

"Power creep" that term means nothing in Warframe, we got damage 2.0 which completely changed which weapons were good and bad, same with melee 2.0 and everything is constantly being revised.

 

Also that idea doesn't work for prime weapons which are supposed to be better than their normal counter part and are slowly being released.

[Cursor]

"Power creep" that term means nothing in Warframe, we got damage 2.0 which completely changed which weapons were good and bad, same with melee 2.0 and everything is constantly being revised.

 

Also that idea doesn't work for prime weapons which are supposed to be better than their normal counter part and are slowly being released.

 

I'm sorry but with all due respect that is complete bull. Most weapons did not dramatically shift up or down the ladder after Damage and Melee 2.0, and enough time has passed after Damage 2.0 that we can already see the creep continuing.

 

Also, there is creep within prime weapons. Braton Prime does five damage more than it's normal counterpart. Boltor Prime does twice the damage of Boltor as well as has increased fire rate and is just better in basically all areas. Weapons aren't just getting stronger with no mitigating factor, primes are getting farther away from their originals.

 

And also, power creep means something in every continuous game, especially one with microtransactions.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Cursor

[Xhos]

I'm sorry but with all due respect that is complete bull. Most weapons did not dramatically shift up or down the ladder after Damage and Melee 2.0, and enough time has passed after Damage 2.0 that we can already see the creep continuing.

 

Also, there is creep within prime weapons. Braton Prime does five damage more than it's normal counterpart. Boltor Prime does twice the damage of Boltor as well as has increased fire rate and is just better in basically all areas. Weapons aren't just getting stronger with no mitigating factor, primes are getting farther away from their originals.

 

And also, power creep means something in every continuous game, especially one with microtransactions.

 

lol. Primes are the originals. The others are made based on them. So...

[Cursor]

lol. Primes are the originals. The others are made based on them. So...

 

You know what I mean.

[arisaka]

Dude, look. Tenno are supposed to be like "lol vaporize" kind of guys. So you're telling me you want us to be the vaporized? Just tell me dude. If anything needs a nerf, the high level enemies do.

The only reason why would be vaporized is because our weapons do so much damage that we need to go to ridiculously high level enemies to make our weapons not one shot everything. Our weapons do so much damage that they can kill enemies that are instantly killing us. That should sound weird to you because no other game like Warframe does that. Other games are going to have the players' health and damage output, enemy health, and enemy damage output...well...not three orders of magnitude larger or smaller than each other. I mean, we can have, what, at most 3000 combined health and shields while doing tens of thousands of damage per second? We simply shouldn't be able to kill enemies that one shot us even if we're using the best weapon in the game.

 

Right now basically every weapon in the game can utterly smash everything on the solar map if enough forma and the best mods are put on it. Weapon progression/tiering does not mean anything if the worst weapons in the game can be used to kill everything that DE is currently balancing the game around. You run into the situation where the best weapons are ludicrously godlike...which is a perfect description of the Boltor Prime once it's forma'd and modded to hell and back.

 

I think mods should be toned down, honestly. In the end it's not the weapon itself that is broken, it's the mods that can make any weapon, no matter how crap, orders of magnitude better than its stock form.

[immolator1001]

I'm sorry but with all due respect that is complete bull. Most weapons did not dramatically shift up or down the ladder after Damage and Melee 2.0, and enough time has passed after Damage 2.0 that we can already see the creep continuing.

 

Also, there is creep within prime weapons. Braton Prime does five damage more than it's normal counterpart. Boltor Prime does twice the damage of Boltor as well as has increased fire rate and is just better in basically all areas. Weapons aren't just getting stronger with no mitigating factor, primes are getting farther away from their originals.

 

And also, power creep means something in every continuous game, especially one with microtransactions.

You mean how the 2 best weapons in the game, the flux rifle and acrid, became useless and most other weapons were shuffled? I'm not saying it balanced the game, but it basically reset when you could say power creep was coming from, and we already had the synapse at that point.

 

As for primes having a creep, go check the latron and paris. Latron is arguable better than the boltor. You are only bringing up the braton which I agree needs a buffs to the other prime weapons.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I'm sorry. but...

What the hell?? Why the sudden hate and insults? Also, question: if no one is going to argue their point, then why go to the forums in the first place?

This is not a flame war, stop turning it into one. This is a serious problem. Power Creep has already rendered dozens of weapons useless.

Don't even try and tell me that Furax still has it's place in Warframe, or Bronco, or Hind, or Supra. They all have been reduced to mastery fodder because of weapons like Boltor Prime.

These 1st generation weapons have been left in the dust thanks to power creep, and buffing every other weapon to match Boltor Prime is just building on the power creep.

The "insults and hate" started with you:

 

I am thinking on PMing every moderator to remove every single post that is just, "No.", as it literally adds nothing to the discussion, wastes everyone's time, and takes up space on our monitors.

And everyone else, please stop giving these idiotic posts a thumbs up. It only encourages this wasteful trend to be repeated.

No means no. It is a simple post in disagreement with you. There's no disrespect at all. Just NO.

While I agree that many of the pre damage 2.0 weapons have been left in the dust and require balancing, your're looking at things from a strict DPS perspective. I'm actually more comfortable with a Braton Prime than a Boltor in T3E, the hit scan and no projectile travel time actually allow me to pick off enemies faster. In a setting with average level enemies I'd probably get more kills with a Braton Prime over a Boltor Prime.

Trading accuracy for power... That's a form of balance... Trading power for reduced range. That's another form of balance.

I don't see EVERY player running around exclusively using Boltor Prime in Warframe. I probably see one in four using one at max.

This would be a pressing issue if the Boltor Prime was only available to a limited amount of players; it is available to anyone who will farm for it or trade for it. This is not limited exclusivity like the Braton Vandal, etc. Anyone can have a Boltor Prime, anyone can use one if they need it.

There should be a dozen or so high tier weapons in every game like this. I feel we have them, do not underestimate the hit scan guns like Latron Prime and continuous weapons like Phage. The Boltor has its place... In my eyes there are many factors that do not make it the best gun in the game.

Stop looking at everything purely from a DPS perspective.

Edited June 11, 2014 by sushidubya

[Cursor]

You mean how the 2 best weapons in the game, the flux rifle and acrid, became useless and most other weapons were shuffled? I'm not saying it balanced the game, but it basically reset when you could say power creep was coming from, and we already had the synapse at that point.

 

As for primes having a creep, go check the latron and paris. Latron is arguable better than the boltor. You are only bringing up the braton which I agree needs a buffs to the other prime weapons.

 

I do believe I said most.

 

And I do believe I was saying that primes are getting further in strength from their original bases, not that they're linearly becoming more powerful.

[Stefanovich]

The "insults and hate" started with you:

No means no. It is a simple post in disagreement with you. There's no disrespect at all. Just NO.

While I agree that many of the pre damage 2.0 weapons have been left in the dust and require balancing, your're looking at things from a strict DPS perspective. I'm actually more comfortable with a Braton Prime than a Boltor in T3E, the hit scan and no projectile travel time actually allow me to pick off enemies faster. In a setting with average level

Trading accuracy for power... That's a form of balance... Trading power for reduced range. That's another form of balance.

I don't see EVERY player running around exclusively using Boltor Prime in Warframe. I probably see one in four using one.

This would be a pressing issue if the Boltor Prime was only available to a limited amount of players; it is available to anyone who will farm for it or trade for it. This is not limited exclusivity like the Braton Vandal, etc. Anyone can have a Boltor Prime, anyone can use one if they need it.

There should be a dozen or so high tier weapons in every game like this. I feel we have them, do not underestimate the hit scan guns like Latron Prime and continuous weapons like Phage. The Boltor has it's place... In my eyes there are many factors that do not make it the best gun in the game.

Stop looking at everything purely from a DPS perspective.

 

Thank you for redeeming yourself with an explanation as to why you disagree.

 

Faith in humanity: restored

 

On topic: I let Boltor Prime have 10 more base damage and an advantage over the Braton Prime in every category except reload speed because of the travel time. Sure, it has better status chance, crit damage, fire rate, magazine size, accuracy and damage, BUT it isn't hitscan.

 

I think that would be balanced, if not, then more balanced than what we have now.

[neKroMancer]

Judging from the fact that prime weapon are mostly an upgraded version with 25-35% more damage (Boltor prime has 116% more damage), I think it's fair and consistent to give Boltor prime 8-10 more damage compared to stock one.

 

However, that also depends on which mastery rank DE intends to give it after retiring the prime access. We already see them giving double damage from rank6>8 before.