How To Improve The Infested

[imaxium]

First off, the Infested is my favorite faction, but it needs some love.

This post is more aimed at defense/survival missions.

My goal here is propose some balancing, make the infested more melee only viable, and kinder to solo players, while keeping the infested challenging. Now I'm not asking for a "OMG NERF PLZ", but the infested need some balancing with the new features and buffs. I like the way infested are headed, but I dont want to see my fav faction ruined.

 

I want to say that I play solo mainly, frequently do DS missions, & have nothing potatoed. I use to often solo, & use mainly melee on DS missions on Eris, Pluto, & Ceres before U14.

 

1) First and Foremost, the infested NEED Medium units. Currently there's basically only light units/normals & Heavy units.

Consequently, you end up with way too many Ancients spawning on defense/survival missions. Imagine basically having Lancers & butchers with a ton of Napalms, bombards, & heavy gunners with auras (not cool).

We Need Medium units like seekers, eviscerator, Hellion, Elite crewman, Railgun moa, anti moa, etc. Units that you should watch for but arent so heavily armored. These units would have health above the normals, but less than normal eximus's.

I know theres the new unit coming, but thats another Heavy if not super heavy. Even more so why we need more medium units and less heavys.

 

Ancients should now be tried as Heavy units (not a medium heavy unit), and play a supportive role.

Before U14 the ancients were an in between of med&Heavy, in spawning, health & damage, and charged you with a knockdown that allowed normals to swarm you.

After U14 the Ancients are tanks(more damage resistance & health), supportive, have a pull, and spawn slightly more. Ancients are now fulling two roles. I feel they should fulfill only one role, becasue currently they are overpowered by being both.

 

2) I really like the idea of making Ancients a Heavy supportive unit, it makes sense. However it needs balancing.

1: Ancients should have a lower spawn rate (similar to other faction's Heavy units)

2: Auras should not stack or at least have a cap thats not 90% damage resistance. More like 50-75%

3: Auras should replace Ancients previous abilites- Mag proc from a Distruptors attack should be removed. It should only steal an amount of energy. No one likes a complete energy drain. Using warframe abilities is what makes this game fun, why rob that from players. Its not a challenge, its annoying.

Healers should not have radial pulses now that they heal from linked units taking damage. Why? because multiple Healers together makes everything Extremely hard to kill, esp on a high level solo defense.

4: Ancients should move faster ( akin to Heavy Gunners walk&run), not charge, and rely on Pull for getting close to a tenno.

5: Pull should be its long arm, not a hook, and it's distance should be reduced (a little) to reflect its arm (with current distance they would need a Mr Fantastic arm)

6: Disruptor aura's damage reduction should be reduced a little, or have a weakness (like enemies are now vulnerable to electric when in aura). However I DO NOT want to be forced to use an elemental damage every time I run an infested mission.

 

The infested should be about the numbers. Strength in numbers, not enemy types. I view the infested as the zombie/zerg of warframe. It should be a slaughterfest, but still challenging. How is this possible? Look at L4D. A crazy amount of zoms with a few specials mixed in. I would like to see ancients fill the role that Specials fill in L4D, specials are priority targets, deadly, and to be feared, and spawn at just the right rate. Ancients should be the same.

 

They should look like this

 

Not this

 

Warframe is about having fun, and being a powerful demi-god slaughtering hordes, and then gets harder as you continue on in time/waves. not a hardcore challenge game right off the bat.

Edited August 13, 2014 by imaxium

[RSITH]

There fine the way there are also for no guns.

[sambarpowder]

There will always be people telling you the infested are fine as they are because they believe you're being a wimp by asking for these changes. It's an opportunity to stroke e-peen, you can't expect an average forumite not to jump on it and rub it in.

 

I personally think most if not all of your changes are necessary, but really your first point is the most important one. There are no infested medium units, unless you consider mutalisk ospreys (hint: I don't). This is also the first time I've seen this point raised by someone in a thread like this. You are right, and the infested seriously need to be fleshed out. Yes. I did just say that.

[SolarDwagon]

I like the stark contrast the infested have between the [basically] zerg rush light units and the "Oh, crap!" heavies, and I don't see it as a problem that needs solving. This isn't a faction-based game, we don't need every faction to be "same but different". Also, in terms of health pool, I still feel that ancients aren't tanks-only the grineer really have tank heavy units.

 

Besides, I think infested balance comments should probably be held until they get their new super-heavies-those will probably be a game-changer and make any comments based on current state of Infested null and void. To be clear, there ARE new units being made for Infested RIGHT NOW, which can't help but change the balance.

 

Also, slide attacks are your friend when it comes to melee. Don't expect the same melee tactics to work against infested as Grineer, for example. One shoots blockable bullets from fewer units, the other has units designed to tear you apart in melee if you let them hit you-because they have no range instead. If sliding is too hard or not working, then Life Strike is your friend. Infested are completely viable melee-only (in fact, they're by far the BEST faction to go up against melee only.)

Edited August 13, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[Inmemoratus]

You don't potato anything though, so what is your idea of balanced, making it possible to solo DS missions without potato'd gear? Then anyone with potato'd gear would stomp it easily and it would be boring.

[AbstractLemons]

Anyone who says they are fine has obviously not ran 10 waves without high tiered equipment the freaking ancients absolutely require you to have an energy efficiency/energy siphon build on top of having multishot mods in low level dark sectors like coba. You can no longer get to wave 10 of low level dark sectors without having at least two players being geared out in high end mods because the ancients are forming nigh invincible walls with their stacking buffs.

 

2 leeches to prevent energy regeneration and rob it, 5-7 disruptors, 2-3 healers, and even if you only have one person with multishot mods on a latron prime for example you're not going to kill fast enough to help out your lowered tiered squad members on low level dark sector when the enemies are barely even hitting lvl 20.

 

Normally you would say "lol use crowd control' cant do that with 0 energy or even 30 if you don't have energy efficiency, '"lol, kill the leeches?" Suckers can be hard to find in a sea of infested especially with disruptor buff going off, this overpowers the leeches aura. On top of that without multishot or any of my high ranked mods I wouldn't be able to even damage the suckers because -90% (or what feels like it) damage plus 2-3 healers healing it off almost immediately. Makes it impossible for lower level squad mates to do anything because they don't have energy so they cant provide support and they can literally do no damage.

 

"Lol, kill the disruptors?" Disruptors are Protected by all of the above and are even tankier and harder  to do damage against so having only one person shoot them down one at a time isn't going to get them down fast enough while all the smaller infested wreck the cryopod.

 

"Lol, kill the healers?" Again protected by the above damage mitigation and other healers healing it off. On top of that other infested can get in the way of your shots so that's just further unnecessary protection.

 

I don't consider the first 10 waves of coba to be "end game" so why are we being required to be 'OP' just to do that content its currently almost pointless for players actually at the suggested level to use dark sectors as away to help them along in progression as of right now mobile defense is more viable for them to grind because they'll actually last long enough to accumulate exp and even resources that would outweigh just doing the first 5 waves of low level dark sectors like coba.

 

So either make all Dark Sectors recommended level 30 or something or balance it out so newer players aren't expected to have the 'best' mods just to actually benefit from dark sector.

[imaxium]

Updated original post with pics I wanted to include but couldn't at the time (They are half jokes FYI)

 

A lot threads i have seen about changing the infested come to arguing between medium, casual players (requesting change, ancients annoying) and Hardcore, 10 forma gear players (saying too easy, they are fine). This thread is about feedback (forma more is not a solution).

 

For Exterminate and other mission types, the infested currently arent bad. But for endless missions, mainly defense. Ancients are overpowered.

 

@SolarDwagon, My concern is that if the ancients spawn rates & abilities arent balanced, the new unit will only make the infested more annoying and frustrating to players on defense missions.

 

 

You don't potato anything though, so what is your idea of balanced, making it possible to solo DS missions without potato'd gear? Then anyone with potato'd gear would stomp it easily and it would be boring.

I still dont understand the potatoing mechanics. The game seems to be based off the assumption thats gears potatoed. Yet new players start with nothing potatoed, and we wonder why the learning curve is backwards. Anyway, thats another topic all together.

 

My main points are:

Need medium units

reduce ancients spawn rates on endless missions

Auras & Pull need a look at

L4D is a good example of what I think infested should be similar to.

[notionphil]

 

My main points are:

Need medium units

reduce ancients spawn rates on endless missions

Auras & Pull need a look at

 

 

I rarely agree with EVERYTHING in a post, but I 100% agree with your OP. That is quite odd.

[Ryouhi]

Thank you so much for putting my thoughts into words (as i suck at that myself).

I always thought the Ancients should be Special units with special abilities/passives and such.

Instead they spawn en masse at the moment, making it impossible to even be on low ground.

 

I have not seen anyone stay on the ground for more than the first 5 waves, after that there's just so many Ancients sending hooks your way from every angle, light units everywhere that are buffed to hell.

I won't even bother trying to revive someone that was stupid enough to try going toe to toe with Infested, because i would simply die myself.

 

Enough bbbling though, i'd just repeat what you said, only thing i also would like to see changed is parasitic Eximi.

They too just spawn in masses when they should actually be 'special' and rare units.

On top of that parasitic ones seem to also be the most common of the Eximi spawns, usually spawning 2-3 of them per wave (even more later on i believe).

they punish you for having so many priority targets.

Take down Healer -> Take down Disruptor -> Take down Toxic -> Try to find the Parasitic Eximus in the flood of light units.

By the time you get them all your Energy will probably be at zero.

These units severely punish power-reliant Frames and players that do not mod for power efficiency.

[Aramanth]

Honestly, the only change I'd think they should make is make it so healer and toxic ancients don't use the new grapple rope.  Or at least not healer ancients, it's just more busy work dodging rope from something that just knocks you back anyway.

[Rapxtor]

Updated original post with pics I wanted to include but couldn't at the time (They are half jokes FYI)

 

A lot threads i have seen about changing the infested come to arguing between medium, casual players (requesting change, ancients annoying) and Hardcore, 10 forma gear players (saying too easy, they are fine). This thread is about feedback (forma more is not a solution).

 

For Exterminate and other mission types, the infested currently arent bad. But for endless missions, mainly defense. Ancients are overpowered.

 

@SolarDwagon, My concern is that if the ancients spawn rates & abilities arent balanced, the new unit will only make the infested more annoying and frustrating to players on defense missions.

 

 

I still dont understand the potatoing mechanics. The game seems to be based off the assumption thats gears potatoed. Yet new players start with nothing potatoed, and we wonder why the learning curve is backwards. Anyway, thats another topic all together.

 

My main points are:

Need medium units

reduce ancients spawn rates on endless missions

Auras & Pull need a look at

L4D is a good example of what I think infested should be similar to.

 

This is something that should be look at and your proposal is very interesting indeed,  what I find most annoying is the number of ancients past wave 11 in OD, and the fact that they all try to grapp the moment you enter their line of sight make things even more harder, and even using some mods to counter, i find that any enjoyment is lost by the confusion that is created at so early stage of the game.

 

Like I already said, this is debatable, but i think that the fact we can do something, should never affect our judgment about it, and even that you encounter some "its easy that fine", there are always people that trow that line, its very common here.

[Inmemoratus]

Updated original post with pics I wanted to include but couldn't at the time (They are half jokes FYI)

 

A lot threads i have seen about changing the infested come to arguing between medium, casual players (requesting change, ancients annoying) and Hardcore, 10 forma gear players (saying too easy, they are fine). This thread is about feedback (forma more is not a solution).

 

For Exterminate and other mission types, the infested currently arent bad. But for endless missions, mainly defense. Ancients are overpowered.

 

@SolarDwagon, My concern is that if the ancients spawn rates & abilities arent balanced, the new unit will only make the infested more annoying and frustrating to players on defense missions.

 

 

I still dont understand the potatoing mechanics. The game seems to be based off the assumption thats gears potatoed. Yet new players start with nothing potatoed, and we wonder why the learning curve is backwards. Anyway, thats another topic all together.

 

My main points are:

Need medium units

reduce ancients spawn rates on endless missions

Auras & Pull need a look at

L4D is a good example of what I think infested should be similar to.

 

It's simple, they want you to feel pressured to buy plat so you have to drop 20 plat on each new weapon and warframe to make it viable. It doubles your upgrade slots which basically doubles your stats.

 

Anyway good example, you say there should be lower spawn rates on ancients? I can one-shot an ancient on sechura with my Paris Prime because I potato'd it so I can fit the damage increases needed. I don't see why they should reduce spawn rates of things I can kill that quickly.

[SolarDwagon]

Honestly, stop expecting to go deep into missions without good gear. Your comments on "10 forma gear" make it obvious you've never even tried upgrading weapons, otherwise you'ld know that dropping more than 6 forma on *any* weapon is a waste, and depending on exact builds less is often sufficient to fill all cards with maxed mods. So now it seems to me like you're the kind of player who asks for nerfs because they can't be bothered putting in the time or effort to get good gear or, in fact, any decent skills. As someone who's rocked a Dark Sector with an unranked melee weapon as my ONLY weapon, learn to play, then come back and talk about balance.

And yes, I've lost my patience if you didn't notice.

Edited August 14, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[imaxium]

Honestly, stop expecting to go deep into missions without good gear. Your comments on "10 forma gear" make it obvious you've never even tried upgrading weapons, otherwise you'ld know that dropping more than 6 forma on *any* weapon is a waste, and depending on exact builds less is often sufficient to fill all cards with maxed mods. So now it seems to me like you're the kind of player who asks for nerfs because they can't be bothered putting in the time or effort to get good gear or, in fact, any decent skills. As someone who's rocked a Dark Sector with an unranked melee weapon as my ONLY weapon, learn to play, then come back and talk about balance.

And yes, I've lost my patience if you didn't notice.

Of course using 10 formas is a waste, I was making a point. No I haven't done much with upgrading cause I havent found weapons I really like yet. Take things with some salt.

I regret putting the potato comment in, I had a feeling it would derail the topic.

[Arabaxus]

You don't potato anything though, so what is your idea of balanced, making it possible to solo DS missions without potato'd gear? Then anyone with potato'd gear would stomp it easily and it would be boring.

 

I ask that you remember there are indeed players, with the same rights as you and me to play the game, who might not have potatoes and Forma's on everything. We don't have an endgame, but mission node missions clearly should not require maximized gear to not get obliterated, considering it the first track everyone takes. If I were to follow the track of missions on the planets alone, which some players might actually do, it's highly unlikely they have multiple weapons with Catalysts and 5-6 Forma at their disposal.

[Inmemoratus]

I ask that you remember there are indeed players, with the same rights as you and me to play the game, who might not have potatoes and Forma's on everything. We don't have an endgame, but mission node missions clearly should not require maximized gear to not get obliterated, considering it the first track everyone takes. If I were to follow the track of missions on the planets alone, which some players might actually do, it's highly unlikely they have multiple weapons with Catalysts and 5-6 Forma at their disposal.

 

It's not about players having the same rights as others. You have a certain power progression that the game is designed around. If you refuse to use it, why should the developer cater to you?

 

20 plat for your primary weapon, 20 plat for your warframe. You're good to go and do any mission in the game. You do not need a forma, trust me. You do not need to potato anything else either.

 

If you do not want to even buy enough plat for 2 potatoes (5 bucks) then you can farm for drops that players will pay plat for. 5-10 plat for many prime parts.

 

edit: I forgot every account starts with 50 plat. You can afford both potatoes. And I can't emphasize this enough: You only need to potato your main warframe and your primary weapon. Everything after that is luxury or trying out builds.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Inmemoratus

[SolarDwagon]

Or you can use flavour of the month weapons that don't even require a potato, let alone Forma-basically any melee weapon you have a stance for (not kidding, stance and a few levels and stuff gets whomped), and a bunch of the top primaries/secondaries. Stay away from crit weapons though-those will never be effective without a forma (soma, synapse, amprex, to a lesser extent a couple of high-crit secondaries like akmagnus).

Edited August 17, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[Kurrumitsumi]

with the infested reveals at gamescon i think were getting those medium units!

[AbaliskInfinite]

Honestly, stop expecting to go deep into missions without good gear. Your comments on "10 forma gear" make it obvious you've never even tried upgrading weapons, otherwise you'ld know that dropping more than 6 forma on *any* weapon is a waste, and depending on exact builds less is often sufficient to fill all cards with maxed mods. So now it seems to me like you're the kind of player who asks for nerfs because they can't be bothered putting in the time or effort to get good gear or, in fact, any decent skills. As someone who's rocked a Dark Sector with an unranked melee weapon as my ONLY weapon, learn to play, then come back and talk about balance.

And yes, I've lost my patience if you didn't notice.

I believe when people say 8-10 forma, they're exaggerating.