Shotgun - Showing Them Some Love!

[Azamagon]

I know, all weapons could needs tweaks, but this thread is specifically about all the shotguns. So, here are my thoughts about them:

 

* Drop-off - Yes, shotguns do drop off in damage faster than bullets IRL, but they don't need to drop off SO MUCH in this game, since spread also reduces their range already. I'd just change this from being a maximum damage reduction of 50%, when the pellet reaches the "max" range. Dropping off to 10% is far too severe. Note: This should go for Brakk too!

* Mod buffs - I think weapon damage-mods in general are too strong, but regardless of that I'll propose this (balancing the mods with specific numbers can be done later, but making them more equal across the weapontypes is more important first):

1) Give Point Blank the same amount of ranks as Serration (that would give it the same ranks and max power etc)

2) Make Vicious Spread have 25% damage boost per rank (instead of 15%, increasing its max boost from 90% to 150%).

Would those 2 shotgun mod buffs be too strong?

* In general, all shotguns could go with a Proc buff. To balance off a (heavily?) increased proc chance, the proc chance could drop in chance over distance, similar to the damage drop off perhaps?

 

Now for each specific Shotgun:

 

Phage

Doesn't need many changes, but I'd suggest this:

* Instead of INSTANTLY resetting the tentaclespread to the max when you stop shooting, making it disperse the spread backwards in a similar speed and fashion similar to when you aim it to narrow the spread, would be a nice QoL-change.

 

Drakgoon

Doesn't need many changes either:

* To follow its description of shooting hot shards of metall, maybe the Drakgoon could have some innate fire damage?

* Proc chance is very much in need of a buff in this weapon...

 

Tigris

While quite good at taking out heavy units, its niche still causes it to suffer too much against crowds:

* Innate 1.0 meter punchthrough! Would help it out to become much better against crowds!

* Reloadspeed reduced to 1.3 seconds. 1.8 is FAR too much.

* Maybe spread its damage over 6 pellets, instead of just 4?

EDIT: * And bump up its damage (and/or critvalues), to like 250 or even up to as much as 300! It's slow, has a quite short range, has spread etc, so make it truly worthwhile to use >:)

 

Hek

* Damage maybe buffed a bit, to 185? (from 174)

* Reloadspeed reduced to 1.8 seconds

* Maybe give it innate 0.1 or 0.2 meter punchthrough? Would make it a middleground shotgun between Strun and Tigris.

 

Sobek

* Rate of fire buffed a bit, maybe as much as 3.5 or 4? (Currently only 2.5, same as Strun...)

* Maybe spread its damage over 6 pellets, instead of just 4?

* Maybe reduce the reloadtime to around 3.5 seconds (4 is a bit excessive, even with its big magazine).

 

Boar

* Increase magsize to 12, or even up to 15

* Slightly improve accuracy?

* Bring it back to the market!

 

Boar Prime

* If anything, slightly improve accuracy (should be the same on Boar and Boar Prime)?

* Possibly increase magsize to 16 to give it a very slight edge over the regular Boar?

 

Strun

* Reduce reload time to 2 seconds

* Increase magsize to 7

* Since it's a low rank weapon, spreading the damagetypes to be more even (57 Impact, 56 Slash, 56 Puncture) would be more understandable. Imo, I think that should be a general rule for low rank weapons though (and higher rank = more specific damage niches and mechanics)

 

Strun Wraith

* Buff damage to 169, same as the regular Strun

 

MK-1 Strun

* Reduce reload time to 2 seconds

* Since it's a low rank weapon, spreading the damagetypes to be more even (50 Impact, 50 Slash, 50 Puncture) would be more understandable. Imo, I think that should be a general rule for low rank weapons though (and higher rank = more specific damage niches and mechanics)

* However, my main opinion is that all MK-1 weapons should all be removed from the game (the options for newbies in the tutorial+market to choose from should be the REGULAR versions, not weaksauce MK-1 version. And those regular versions should all be available for credits of course)

 

What do you think, would this be a good start for the Shotguns?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Azamagon

[Vorsches]

I would love to pull some of my shotguns out from the back of my arsenal for high tier use instead of just for fun, so some buffs would be cool.

+1 For excellent, well thought out points. (As opposed to the usual one line topics: "de buff x weapons for damidge plz".)

[SergeiTheBeast]

While I agree that shotguns definitely need some love, I can't say I agree with all your changes OP.

 

The Sobek's fire rate is fine, and is godly with a fire rate mod. shotgunspazz or accelerated blast work fine.

The Mk-1 Strun, it's a MK-1, it's supposed to be bad.

Phage, I'm with you on this one actually.

Drakgoon, Raise proc chance, otherwise I'd say it's fine.

Tigris, ugh, don't even get me started on all the buffs that thing needs. -_-

Hek, I thought it was fine as is personally.

Boar, No, just no.

Boar prime, Haven't used it. Can't say anything to be fair.

Strun, A little bit of love for this would be nice. a reload speed buff or at least I wish DE would give us another reload speed mod on the shotgun table.

Strun Wraith, You know this is considered to be the best shotgun in the game by a lot of tenno right?  I would like to see a damage buff personally but I don't expect it.

Edited September 13, 2014 by SergeiTheBeast

[Azamagon]

I would love to pull some of my shotguns out from the back of my arsenal for high tier use instead of just for fun, so some buffs would be cool.

+1 For excellent, well thought out points. (As opposed to the usual one line topics: "de buff x weapons for damidge plz".)

Thanks man ^^

Yeah those "buff damage" posts are usually the worst. Only in VERY few cases are damage buffs the right thing to do. But what weapons MOSTLY suffer from is the inability to handle hordes, with combos like a small mag and a long reload. Even with the biggest damagebuff in the world, these kind of weapons will always suffer, since they don't fit Warframe's pace. Guess why snipers still suck, while the quite similar bows are totally viable? Speed is very important...

 

While I agree that shotguns definitely need some love, I can't say I agree with all your changes OP.

 

The Sobek's fire rate is fine, and is godly with a fire rate mod. shotgunspazz or accelerated blast work fine.

The Mk-1 Strun, it's a MK-1, it's supposed to be bad.

Phage, I'm with you on this one actually.

Drakgoon, Raise proc chance, otherwise I'd say it's fine.

Tigris, ugh, don't even get me started on all the buffs that thing needs. -_-

Hek, I thought it was fine as is personally.

Boar, No, just no.

Boar prime, Haven't used it. Can't say anything to be fair.

Strun, A little bit of love for this would be nice. a reload speed buff or at least I wish DE would give us another reload speed mod on the shotgun table.

Strun Wraith, You know this is considered to be the best shotgun in the game by a lot of tenno right?  I would like to see a damage buff personally but I don't expect it.

* Sobek - The fact that you mention spazz and blast shows that it suffers too much in base speed... Thus, at least a small RoF improvement would help it out a lot. I mean, it shoots with the same RoF as the Strun, but the Strun also has more power per shot.

* Let's not discuss the MK-1 weapons, I hate them. Lazy copy+paste creations tend to make me a bit frustrated.

* Phage - Alrightie :)

* Drakgoon - Yeah, like I said ^^ The heat damage is just a flavour idea, far from necessary.

* Tigris - Well, I started somewhere! :D

* Hek - Yeah, I guess it's quite fine. But just a little something like that would make it stick out enough to not be too similar to Strun.

* Boar - Why? Oo

* Boar - Alright. All I can say is that it is a less accurate but FAR more bursty version of Sobek. It's good as is.

* Strun - Yeah the reload is what is killing it the most.

* Strun Wraith - It's quite good, yes. But it is also embarrassing that the regular Strun is more powerful (in plain damage). With the buffs to the Strun, the Strun Wraith feels a bit lacking. If the Strun got the buffs I suggested it would only be fair for the Wraith to get boosted a bit so it doesn't become obsolete.

[CaptainJohnson]

Yeah those "buff damage" posts are usually the worst. Only in VERY few cases are damage buffs the right thing to do.

 

I don't think it's so rare. For Shotguns, I agree that damage buffs aren't the end-all be-all way to go, but several weapons would do just fine with a simple damage buff. Take the Braton Prime, for instance. It's perfect as it is, just needs a bit of damage boosting. I agree that only buffing damage isn't usually the way to go, but they often put the weapons at least on a better tier than before. You can add QoL boosts to any weapon you want, but if the damage is absolutely pitiful, nothing will really help it (unless it's an ungodly status weapon, like the Tysis).

[SergeiTheBeast]

* Sobek - The fact that you mention spazz and blast shows that it suffers too much in base speed... Thus, at least a small RoF improvement would help it out a lot. I mean, it shoots with the same RoF as the Strun, but the Strun also has more power per shot.

* Boar - Why? Oo

 

The Sobek is a great shotgun as is, the rate of fire mods just make it even better and if the gun itself god a RoF increase then it would make these mods effectively worthless for it

 

Boar.  I'm going to guess you weren't around for when it was on the market?  I won't sit here and claim I was, but I've watched just about every video on youtube about it. Even my personal favorite Veteran Tenno Mogamu (#BasedMogamu)  took a dump all over that gun. It was weak, very innacurate and even with mods it was terrible...

 

It was like the Machete of shotguns.  That clarify it for you?

 

One thing I think DE could do to help move towards marking shotguns feel like shotguns is give them a damage buff when you get within a certain range of the enemy. The Damage mod is called "Point Blank" for a reason.  Most shotguns aren't effective beyond a certain range and as the game currently stands, ALL of them are completely outclassed by Rifles (But that's just my opinion) I've got a boar prime on stand by so once I get the O Cells to build it, I may turn around and eat my words here. But until that time comes, Rifles are just superior IMO.

[Azamagon]

I don't think it's so rare. For Shotguns, I agree that damage buffs aren't the end-all be-all way to go, but several weapons would do just fine with a simple damage buff. Take the Braton Prime, for instance. It's perfect as it is, just needs a bit of damage boosting. I agree that only buffing damage isn't usually the way to go, but they often put the weapons at least on a better tier than before. You can add QoL boosts to any weapon you want, but if the damage is absolutely pitiful, nothing will really help it (unless it's an ungodly status weapon, like the Tysis).

I certainly don't disagreed with you, as I didn't say that it NEVER is a good idea, just that is so annoying to see that as the #1 buff people seem to want from weapons, when the problem often isn't the weapon in question being too weak, but actually more of a problem with some weapons being too STRONG (like Boltor Prime).

Take a better example: Snipers. Boost their damage all you want (I would at least agreed upon reliable crits, I can't deny that), but if their magsizes and/or reloadtimes and/or RoF and/or punchthrough aren't improved on them, they will STILL be lackluster for the horde-style enemies in this game, which is the MAJORITY of this game's fighting pace.

 

The Sobek is a great shotgun as is, the rate of fire mods just make it even better and if the gun itself god a RoF increase then it would make these mods effectively worthless for it

 

Boar.  I'm going to guess you weren't around for when it was on the market?  I won't sit here and claim I was, but I've watched just about every video on youtube about it. Even my personal favorite Veteran Tenno Mogamu (#BasedMogamu)  took a dump all over that gun. It was weak, very innacurate and even with mods it was terrible...

 

It was like the Machete of shotguns.  That clarify it for you?

 

One thing I think DE could do to help move towards marking shotguns feel like shotguns is give them a damage buff when you get within a certain range of the enemy. The Damage mod is called "Point Blank" for a reason.  Most shotguns aren't effective beyond a certain range and as the game currently stands, ALL of them are completely outclassed by Rifles (But that's just my opinion) I've got a boar prime on stand by so once I get the O Cells to build it, I may turn around and eat my words here. But until that time comes, Rifles are just superior IMO.

Sobek - But how would that make those mods useless? Sure, they would be more OPTIONAL, but certainly not useless. I just think that having them as options rather than as necessities is way better for playstyle variety, imho.

 

Boar - I have everything this game have to offer (bar Lato/Braton Vandal), including the Boar. And the Boar kinda sucks, yes. But not terribly much. Hence some boosts. Damage and RoF is honestly fine. Magsize is a bit lackluster, considering its RoF. Accuracy could be improved a bit (I'll add that, thank you!). I mean, the whole point is to NOT have a horrible weapon, so if improved, why not bring it back again as well? Your point makes no sense...

 

The thing you are speaking about with having damage bonus closer up... that's the whole point of having Shotguns with very high base damage + damage dropoff... The reason they are (somewhat) outclassed by rifles is because the Rifle mods are better than Shotgun mods and that the damage dropoff is too severe, considering they also have spread.

Boar Prime rocks btw, hope you enjoy levelling it up (and eating your words! :D jk jk ^^)

[GTG3000]

*sighs about the good old days when crits were per-pellet and hek was a sniper*

 

Really, all shotguns [in general] need is a change to the drop-off (increacing range and making it 50% minimum, or 75% in case of hek and other 'full chokes' if any arrive) and the return of shown chance-related things being calculated on per-pellet basis, as in 'assuming every pellet is a bullet shot from a weapon with such stats'.

 

It's kind of funny how the drop-off was implemented to stop Hek from overshining sniper rifles, which were kind of terrible (and I'm not entirely convinced they are better now).

 

Also, do not touch sobeks pellet count, it's a strength, not a weakness.

Edited September 14, 2014 by GTG3000