Recent Nerfs

[.-Tenno-.]

This is from my friend but I share her opinions.

She says:

 

 

The recent nerfs to both shotguns and the Gorgon arent what I was expecting, as the form of nerf that was performed did not guide these guns into specialized niches, but rather make them fairly useless as a whole. A nerf is meant to make game better by specializing set parts of the system to make those parts better, not worse, which in this case are the guns a key part of the game itself.

 

The issues with shotguns are on both sides, yes shotguns shouldn't be able to snipe, but they shouldn't be dubbed down to they only have a range of 10 meters, that's less range then a riot shotgun in real life. Now yes, the fact that shotguns could snipe needed to be addressed, however the flat falloff does not work as a whole.  Now the largest issue is, the shotgun types were not specialized, rather the falloff was flat across all of them.

 

Now for each shotgun, the Boar, Strun, and the Hek. Each of these three shotguns are very different, each one having their own unique ranges, setups, damage counts and even tricks to use. But lets start with the Boar, now its a rapid fire shotgun, with a very wide spread cone, and fairly low damage in the idea of a shotgun. But its fire rate makes up for the lack of damage. Now the Boar is fairly alright with the nerf, it was never meant to be used past close range like a Riot shotgun in real life, which is made to handle large crowds and have a quick firing ability. But even with it needing to be close range, the current falloff doesn't make much sense, and yes I understand this game isn't exactly going to be based purely on real life but a riot shotgun in real life has an effective range within 30 meters, which is roughly 90 feet. This is a far cry from the current falloff, which is heavily limiting its true meaning as a close range carnage maker.

 

Now for the Strun, this is a combat shotgun, a weapon that should mirror its real life counterpart, and it does fairly well. It has a fair balanced spread making survivable in close range, but its true calling is in more close-mid range engagements where its quick firing, higher damage, and spread can be used to down targets as they move on you, or you move toward them. The Nerf completely destroys this gun at the moment, as a combat shotgun in in real life such as the M1011 has an effective range up to roughly 50 meters, that is roughly 150 feet. That is a massive disparity to the current in game falloff, which cripples this gun for the most part and making it hugely ineffective as a whole.

 

Now for the hot topic, The Hek. This is a super full choke, long barrel shotgun. This is not a close range weapon by any sort, it has a super tight spread which means COMPRESSION. Now you may wonder why I typed that in caps, that is the key to the Hek's legendary track record. Compression is what happens when you choke a shotgun, your compressing the pellets and gasses through a tighter barrel to increase speed of the shot, and increase range, damage and accuracy. Now it may seem alittle odd, but here is the fact of reality for this one. A super full choke, would turn a current day shotgun into a pump action rifle, that tears its target apart with a hail of buckshot. This is the reality of the Hek, it is a long range shotgun, a range that in real life which effective from 70meters to well about 100meters, while maintaining a spread that puts, at range 70% or more of the pellets on the target. Now yes this is an issue, this is due to the fact the Hek wasn't made for suppression, it was made for damage pure and simple. And the falloff DE has forced onto the Hek has taken away its unique feature as a mid to long range shotgun as a whole, and made the gun extremely less effective, as the tight spread makes it very easy to miss at close range.

 

Now I agree with those that complain about the Hek and other shotguns, but this Nerf is not what we needed. Yes falloff is a good step in the right direction, but it is not right to outright destroy whole set of weapons to make one group happy and make everyone else in the warframe community suffer for those that “don't like” “don't use” or “Can't use” the Hek. Rather Falloff should be based on EACH GUN INDIVIDUALLY. But even that is not enough, the best way is to limit the Hek itself which is the biggest hot topic in the game due to it basically being the weekend warrior of all our weapons. 

 

Rather the best way to limit the hek is to one remove the ability for it to crit a target past mid range for, roughly 40-50meters. Secondly, lower its refire speed making each pump take longer. Third, put a cap on the weapons clip at 4 as is the standard for it, which countless people will hate. Or the better means for it, increase the reload time further, and make it unable to be modded as part of the gun itself. This would mean, it is a heavy full choke shotgun, which mid fire speed, and a VERY long reload, which would press players to learn when to use it, when to shoot it, what targets to shoot, and most of all, when to reload. This is over all the best means in which to balance the Hek.

 

Now for my last topic, and I'm going to admit, I always thought the Gorgon was personally lackluster. Yes the Gorgon is the “strongest” rifle like gun in the game, its also has a very long reload, a massive clip and drive up time to put its full damage out. And I understand why the people at DE nerfed it like this, but it doesn't work. It makes the gun feel like the barrel is deformed, and that the recoil system for it is based on barrel deformation rather then your aim shifting from shooting. And yes I understand how sniping with the first shot needed to be addressed, but making a weapon useless to combat this is not how to fix the system. Personally, I nearly never used this first shot sniping, I normally moved into mid range put down a full clip killing and weakening targets, and when I was out switch to my quicker side arm and took the survivors down. This is what the gorgon was made for, mid range suppressive fire, but few used it as such. 

 

But killing off the accuracy of the gun is not the way to balance it out. Rather, you need to make it more logical to move in, and go full auto. While at the same time the first shot should be fairly accurate, its the truth with almost every gun that exists in real life, but as the issue was this insane first shot spam, you can break that down with greater ease then just tearing out any hope of hitting a target at the range it was meant for. Rather, a large recoil to the first few rounds, with am aim that tightens up as the gorgon's rotary system spins up till full auto, which at that point it should enter a heavy suppressive fire mode where you walk with the cannon of a gun rather then run. But you have much more control with it, and to make up for the slow movements keep the spin up for several seconds (2-3) in which one can resume full auto fire with the controlled spread by just re-firing the gun. Secondly, and this will fix the first shot spam, is to give the first shots not only higher recoil to them, but if you stop firing before entering full spin speed you should need to deal with a very long aiming time. This would mean if someone takes a single shot, or a short burst they need to deal with the fact their next few shots will be even worse, which would force the snap shot firing into an “As needed only” firing.

 

 

 

As I said before.  These words are not my own but I support them as if they were. I agree with all of her standpoints.

I also know this is a bit on the lengthy side but that couldnt be helped.  

 

IF YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON THIS PLEASE DO SO BUT...try to keep it civil.  Were not here to rage but discuss.

Thanks.

 

 

Edit:

Disclaimer:

      The Ranges of real world guns in this post were not meant to be a staging point from which ranges should be based, rather just a means for discussion to be formed from to be based on logic, and hard numbers. Rather then random ideas. Personally the writer of this post HarukaTsukiko believes the best over all ranges for the shotguns to be within 40-50 meters for warframe. In which the Boar would stay at the current Nerf of 10 meters, the Strun would be pushed up to full damage 15 or 20 meters with falloff range being 5 meters after its full damage edge. And finally the Hek with a range of full damage 30 meters, with falloff range of 10 meters after its full damage edge.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Aege

[Kadishia]

I love read the story or suggestion.

 

Those points nailed down what Hek and Strun needs.

Hek hardly does damage at long range and I'm having a hard time killing enemies.

Strun I haven't tried that out.

 

Anyways, Good job.

[.-Tenno-.]

I love read the story or suggestion.

 

Those points nailed down what Hek and Strun needs.

Hek hardly does damage at long range and I'm having a hard time killing enemies.

Strun I haven't tried that out.

 

Anyways, Good job.

 

Thanks.  Would appreciate a +1 to draw attention to it from DE.  Its pointless if they don't notice it.

[datoamo]

+1

[Argoms]

Agreed on most things, except weapon ranges and the hek suggestion. Crits are useless, so taking them away from a non-grakata weapon is effectively reducing dps by less than 3%, having no real effect on gameplay. 

 

I like the idea of (and actually also suggested) making the gorgon more accurate as it fires more, acting sort of like blacklight's LMG if you've every played that. 

Edited April 29, 2013 by Argoms

[Hatr]

Great job, i agree with everything from here, you and your friend are an example for how every beta tester should be. I hope that all the DE will read your post, good luck buddy.

[Korevas]

Let me just add this:

 

After reading the patchnotes, my first thought was "well, too bad my favourite gun was nerfed. But with the dominance it had over others, maybe some adjustment was warranted. Then I went out to see how bad it was. I equipped my potatoed level 30 shotgun, stacked through the roof with upgraded damage mods. Ironically, my first finding was that I couldn't oneshot *a vent* at max range.

 

Then I went to test my gorgon. I missed a chest at mid range for 3 times before I could hit it.

 

Then I decided to quit for the day.

[LoRDxDeMoN]

There are many topics saying the exact same thing. Using more words does not make your argument any different.

 

I don't care much for HEK or Gorgon, they were never all that good. But apparently they were the most used weapons, so DE tried their best to make them be a bit less appealing. Did they choose the best way to do that? Who knows.

[Hatr]

There are many topics saying the exact same thing. Using more words does not make your argument any different.

 

I don't care much for HEK or Gorgon, they were never all that good. But apparently they were the most used weapons, so DE tried their best to make them be a bit less appealing. Did they choose the best way to do that? Who knows.

Compared to the other weapons they were, you can't compare the pre-nerf gorgon to latron, snipertron, paris or grakata

[Argoms]

Compared to the other weapons they were, you can't compare the pre-nerf gorgon to latron, snipertron, paris or grakata

Pre-nerf gorgon was a latron with a giggle switch.

[Pandas_and_pancakes]

Yeah, even though im not a big fan of shotguns, i cant help but feel bad for people who have spent time and effort into their favourite primaries and have them completely destroyed in a single update. Sure the devs are trying to balance out the weapons, and i appreciate that, but i still dont think that they have thought everything through before they implemented the update.

 

+1

[Hatr]

Pre-nerf gorgon was a latron with a giggle switch.

I;ve palyed with both of them, both had the same mods (without potato) and against infested, latron was almost useless (ancients) against low levels ofc latron was much more comfortable to play with.. but who looks forward to low lvl mobs?

[Argoms]

I;ve palyed with both of them, both had the same mods (without potato) and against infested, latron was almost useless (ancients) against low levels ofc latron was much more comfortable to play with.. but who looks forward to low lvl mobs?

Latron and gorgon are bad to compare at low level because the latron has the polarity and the gorgon doesn't. Therefore, the latron has higher potential, but may not be so obviously good at lower levels. Comparing level 20 at least (not even potato) would be a fairer representation of what the weapons can do.

 

And besides, it is fair to compare the two when they both could act as semi-auto long ranged rifles, but one of them could hold down the trigger to go full auto and rip through everything.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Argoms

[Captator]

Gorgon should have good first shot accuracy with high recoil so you have to wait a while to land the second on point shot as you suggest. Then as it spools up it should become increasingly accurate to a lower cap. I would also like to see it being less accurate while moving, to reflect its heavier nature. The heavy machine gun from BF2142 springs to mind as an almost perfect example of how it should behave, and largely what you describe.

[Phoenix86]

+1 on this, refine and balance, shotguns needed a tune down but this is too much devs ;)

 

no attacks, u doing fairly well in this game and 'errors' are a way to learn and grow up

[Argoms]

Gorgon should have good first shot accuracy with high recoil so you have to wait a while to land the second on point shot as you suggest. Then as it spools up it should become increasingly accurate to a lower cap. I would also like to see it being less accurate while moving, to reflect its heavier nature. The heavy machine gun from BF2142 springs to mind as an almost perfect example of how it should behave, and largely what you describe.

Having good first shot accuracy allows it to take over the role of the latron too much, which is what the nerf intended to fix. The spread should be reduced as firerate increases, otherwise we're back where we're started. 

[Firebat86]

BETA is trial and error.  And this thread lays out some of the potential flaws to the shottie "fixes."  What I love is that the DE team listens to this feedback, analyzes it, and actually acts upon tons of the community feedback!  while the OP was a little long winded, I do agree with your points!  It's definitely frustrating shooting something for 1-6 dmg, move 1 foot forward and magically do 100 or more...

 

Nice post!

[ValhaHazred]

Having good first shot accuracy allows it to take over the role of the latron too much, which is what the nerf intended to fix. The spread should be reduced as firerate increases, otherwise we're back where we're started. 

 

I feel it would have served them better to slightly buff the Latron rather than make the Gorgon terrible. I can't stand the Gorgon now.

[Argoms]

I feel it would have served them better to slightly buff the Latron rather than make the Gorgon terrible. I can't stand the Gorgon now.

Right now, it still needs a buff. But giving back the first-shot accuracy is not the solution.

 

The latron is actually a good weapon as-is, you just have to actually aim for weak spots.

[HarukaTsukiko]

When I orginally wrote that post up, to send to a friend so he could edit it for posting, I didn't mean the recoil would break down in a few seconds for the gorgon. Rather I meant something much more like 5+ seconds if you take a short burst, but if you go fullauto it would override that recoil gain through the stablization system.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The real problem with the Hek that its entire purpose and niche was severely broken from conception.

 

The draw of shotguns in video games has always been "high power, short range". Shotguns are meant to deliver damage that is both sizable in comparison to other weapons and instantaneous, meaning that all the damage is delivered in a single shot rather than consecutive shots. The downside to using a shotgun is meant to be a short effective range, which perfectly balances out its ability to instantly gib targets. It's a classic risk and reward scenario; you trade power for range, the ability to kill easily and effectively, at the expense of exposing yourself more to enemies as you reach ideal position to utilize the shotgun.

 

Comparison to the statistics of real-life shotguns does not do any good in the arguments levied against the Hek and other shotguns; video game FPS's have, for quite a while now, utilized the checks and balances of "high power, short range" in order to keep shotguns as a desirable alternative playstyle, rather than a centralized playstyle that is the baseline rather than a effective alternative.

 

The Hek prior to the shotgun nerf dashes this idea of balance into the rocks. It was a novel idea that made it unique; a shotgun that worked at long range. DE attempted to balance this out by reducing magazine size for 4 and giving it a modest reload time... however, this was not nearly enough to bring balance to the weapon, for reasons that almost always translate into efficiency.

 

1.) The Hek allowed for absurdly fast kills at ranges comparable to in-game rifles, utilizing shotgun-level damage at rifle-level ranges. While this might not seem like a big deal at lower levels, it becomes more and more apparent at higher levels of play that the ability to kill even one enemy in a shorter span of time makes or breaks your level of efficiency when dealing with enemies. The faster ONE enemy dies, the less potential damage it can do, and the faster the player is able to move on to the NEXT enemy, and the Hek provided, hands down, the quickest Time-To-Kill (TTK) ratio coupled with optimal ranges that were not meant for such low TTK. Even the supposed weaknesses of only have 4 rounds (6 with mods) were negligible to this TTK ratio, as the reload time was still fairly fast. This made the gun favorable above all other guns; enemy killing efficiency.

 

2.) Because of the nature of the shotgun being able to deliver high damage in a single shell, it often only took that ONE shell to kill a single enemy. Again, not that big a deal at first glance, but at higher levels, ammunition economy is a big deal. Enemies take more damage and require more rounds to kill, however the Hek's insane upfront damage in a single (1) shell, coupled with the fact that shotgun ammo pickups restore ten (10) shells a pickup, and drop at nearly the same frequent rate as pistol and rifle ammo, meant that its ammunition efficiency was also the best in the game. This extremely efficient ammo economy essentially translated being able to use your Hek much, much longer than you would, say, a Braton or a Latron, in comparison to the damage/kills you would have been delivering.

 

All of these combined are what you had with the Hek prior to its nerf; the best TTK in the game, with large optimal ranges comparable to roughly 80% of the rifle roster, with the best ammunition economy that allows more constant use. It's hard to argue that the Hek was broken with all of these factors riding behind it, and even harder to not imagine that DE would eventually attempt to fix the broken nature of the weapon.

 

The scary part about this is that very little about the Hek's strengths actually changed with this nerf. It still has the best TTK currently, and because of the shotgun nature of upfront damage expended in a single round, still has the best ammunition economy. The only change is that now, it cannot be used at rifle's optimal range with great effect. And although my opinion is not popular, that is how I would prefer it remain with this weapon, as it does a better (but not complete) job of balancing it to bring it more into line with other weapons.

 

---

 

Now I agree with those that complain about the Hek and other shotguns, but this Nerf is not what we needed. Yes falloff is a good step in the right direction, but it is not right to outright destroy whole set of weapons to make one group happy and make everyone else in the warframe community suffer for those that “don't like” “don't use” or “Can't use” the Hek. Rather Falloff should be based on EACH GUN INDIVIDUALLY. But even that is not enough, the best way is to limit the Hek itself which is the biggest hot topic in the game due to it basically being the weekend warrior of all our weapons.

 

Giving the Hek any range longer than its current while still keeping its original stats the same will only serve to bring it back to its original broken status. While I agree that the damage falloff shouldn't drop so drastically, I also believe that the new optimal ranges for shotguns is actually fairly good, in a balance sense. The short range is not so short that the purpose of the weapon is rendered useless, as there are currently still many pros to utilizing your shotgun rather than resorting to melee damage. TTK with a shotgun on multiple enemies still has quick a lead over melee weapons despite the shortened effective ranges, as well as the inherent risk of coming into melee ranges against the factions.

 

All in all, my ideal scenario would be to keep the optimal range as it is, at ten (10) in-game meters, but give the damage falloff a much larger berth before its reduction to 1 is introduced. Perhaps even double the falloff ranges so that, at 20m, I only do half-damage per pellet from my weapon. Shotguns should be close-range weapons of choice, but should still be able to work at decreased effectiveness at non-optimal ranges, to a certain extent.

 

Rather the best way to limit the hek is to one remove the ability for it to crit a target past mid range for, roughly 40-50meters. Secondly, lower its refire speed making each pump take longer. Third, put a cap on the weapons clip at 4 as is the standard for it, which countless people will hate. Or the better means for it, increase the reload time further, and make it unable to be modded as part of the gun itself. This would mean, it is a heavy full choke shotgun, which mid fire speed, and a VERY long reload, which would press players to learn when to use it, when to shoot it, what targets to shoot, and most of all, when to reload. This is over all the best means in which to balance the Hek.

 

1.) Lower/removing the critical chance at longer ranges would do nothing, I'm afraid. A majority of the Heks damage comes from its innate stopping power coupled with its instantaneous delivery method. Crits are negligible, at best.

 

2.) Lowering the refire rate could potentially help balance the weapon, but it would take more than that to allow it to receive its original ranges. Most enemies below the 60's die from a SINGLE Hek shot. Lowering the fire rate would not effectively reduce the Heks TTK in this manner.

 

3.) Lower the magazine size is, again, a potential balance but is still made negligible due to the very nature of the way the Hek works. Only one shot is required in many instances due to the Hek's power; keeping the magazine at 4 and not changing the reload rate, or anything else about the weapon in addition, would not change much about the Hek, as the reload times were never enough to balance out the massive pros of the Hek's damage and range.

 

 

And I cannot comment on the Gorgon, as I never used it. But being able to use it as a very accurate semi-auto rifle seems to go against/beyond its minigun/bullethose purpose.

[Lunasa]

Great text mate, good job

[HarukaTsukiko]

The real problem with the Hek that its entire purpose and niche was severely broken from conception.

 

The draw of shotguns in video games has always been "high power, short range". Shotguns are meant to deliver damage that is both sizable in comparison to other weapons and instantaneous, meaning that all the damage is delivered in a single shot rather than consecutive shots. The downside to using a shotgun is meant to be a short effective range, which perfectly balances out its ability to instantly gib targets. It's a classic risk and reward scenario; you trade power for range, the ability to kill easily and effectively, at the expense of exposing yourself more to enemies as you reach ideal position to utilize the shotgun.

 

Comparison to the statistics of real-life shotguns does not do any good in the arguments levied against the Hek and other shotguns; video game FPS's have, for quite a while now, utilized the checks and balances of "high power, short range" in order to keep shotguns as a desirable alternative playstyle, rather than a centralized playstyle that is the baseline rather than a effective alternative.

 

The Hek prior to the shotgun nerf dashes this idea of balance into the rocks. It was a novel idea that made it unique; a shotgun that worked at long range. DE attempted to balance this out by reducing magazine size for 4 and giving it a modest reload time... however, this was not nearly enough to bring balance to the weapon, for reasons that almost always translate into efficiency.

 

1.) The Hek allowed for absurdly fast kills at ranges comparable to in-game rifles, utilizing shotgun-level damage at rifle-level ranges. While this might not seem like a big deal at lower levels, it becomes more and more apparent at higher levels of play that the ability to kill even one enemy in a shorter span of time makes or breaks your level of efficiency when dealing with enemies. The faster ONE enemy dies, the less potential damage it can do, and the faster the player is able to move on to the NEXT enemy, and the Hek provided, hands down, the quickest Time-To-Kill (TTK) ratio coupled with optimal ranges that were not meant for such low TTK. Even the supposed weaknesses of only have 4 rounds (6 with mods) were negligible to this TTK ratio, as the reload time was still fairly fast. This made the gun favorable above all other guns; enemy killing efficiency.

 

2.) Because of the nature of the shotgun being able to deliver high damage in a single shell, it often only took that ONE shell to kill a single enemy. Again, not that big a deal at first glance, but at higher levels, ammunition economy is a big deal. Enemies take more damage and require more rounds to kill, however the Hek's insane upfront damage in a single (1) shell, coupled with the fact that shotgun ammo pickups restore ten (10) shells a pickup, and drop at nearly the same frequent rate as pistol and rifle ammo, meant that its ammunition efficiency was also the best in the game. This extremely efficient ammo economy essentially translated being able to use your Hek much, much longer than you would, say, a Braton or a Latron, in comparison to the damage/kills you would have been delivering.

 

All of these combined are what you had with the Hek prior to its nerf; the best TTK in the game, with large optimal ranges comparable to roughly 80% of the rifle roster, with the best ammunition economy that allows more constant use. It's hard to argue that the Hek was broken with all of these factors riding behind it, and even harder to not imagine that DE would eventually attempt to fix the broken nature of the weapon.

 

The scary part about this is that very little about the Hek's strengths actually changed with this nerf. It still has the best TTK currently, and because of the shotgun nature of upfront damage expended in a single round, still has the best ammunition economy. The only change is that now, it cannot be used at rifle's optimal range with great effect. And although my opinion is not popular, that is how I would prefer it remain with this weapon, as it does a better (but not complete) job of balancing it to bring it more into line with other weapons.

 

---

 

 

Giving the Hek any range longer than its current while still keeping its original stats the same will only serve to bring it back to its original broken status. While I agree that the damage falloff shouldn't drop so drastically, I also believe that the new optimal ranges for shotguns is actually fairly good, in a balance sense. The short range is not so short that the purpose of the weapon is rendered useless, as there are currently still many pros to utilizing your shotgun rather than resorting to melee damage. TTK with a shotgun on multiple enemies still has quick a lead over melee weapons despite the shortened effective ranges, as well as the inherent risk of coming into melee ranges against the factions.

 

All in all, my ideal scenario would be to keep the optimal range as it is, at ten (10) in-game meters, but give the damage falloff a much larger berth before its reduction to 1 is introduced. Perhaps even double the falloff ranges so that, at 20m, I only do half-damage per pellet from my weapon. Shotguns should be close-range weapons of choice, but should still be able to work at decreased effectiveness at non-optimal ranges, to a certain extent.

 

 

1.) Lower/removing the critical chance at longer ranges would do nothing, I'm afraid. A majority of the Heks damage comes from its innate stopping power coupled with its instantaneous delivery method. Crits are negligible, at best.

 

2.) Lowering the refire rate could potentially help balance the weapon, but it would take more than that to allow it to receive its original ranges. Most enemies below the 60's die from a SINGLE Hek shot. Lowering the fire rate would not effectively reduce the Heks TTK in this manner.

 

3.) Lower the magazine size is, again, a potential balance but is still made negligible due to the very nature of the way the Hek works. Only one shot is required in many instances due to the Hek's power; keeping the magazine at 4 and not changing the reload rate, or anything else about the weapon in addition, would not change much about the Hek, as the reload times were never enough to balance out the massive pros of the Hek's damage and range.

 

 

And I cannot comment on the Gorgon, as I never used it. But being able to use it as a very accurate semi-auto rifle seems to go against/beyond its minigun/bullethose purpose.

 

These are all very fine points, but the reality of a shotgun even within a FPS a realistic FPS, actually have these real ranges. The shotguns as they are, still are extremely powerful. and I agree with you completely the power to do that much damage is curbed by only a few things. And the largest of them is range. But to lower the range of shotguns to such crippling lvls is not a means to balence them out for gameplay. Yes a nerf needs to happen, but not a destrutive one as it currently is. I was trying to alure to is a proactive nerf, one that would again push the shotguns into a position where you would have to habe risks for your reward.

 

The biggest drawback for the Hek isn't its fast firing, its long reload, or even a limited clip. Rather it is its tight spread itself. The Hek is hard to use if something is right next to you, unlike normal high spread, crowd control shotguns. In reality the Hek is a buckshot rifle, it is a super full choke shotgun, and the only true way to balence it and keep its range would be a nerf to its other stats, not including damage. As damage would amp upward with compression, as stated before.

 

Rather a combination of set ammo, no crits (which do add alot more then you think, I normally hit between 24-28 a pellet on grineer at lvl 60, and a head shot pushs that to 35-40s), a longer reload time, and slower firing speed. It would push it to be a support in force weapon, where the idea is to take down targets quickly in order to remove their damage fromt he field outright. Again if the firespeed, reload time, clip count, where changed and locked into place so they can no longer be modded for one. And secondly crits being removed as a whole from the gun it would lower its full DPS by atleast 30% or more.

Edited April 29, 2013 by HarukaTsukiko

[MoonicusMaximus]

These are all very fine points, but the reality of a shotgun even within a FPS a realistic FPS, actually have these real ranges. The shotguns as they are, still are extremely powerful. and I agree with you completely the power to do that much damage is curbed by only a few things. And the largest of them is range. But to lower the range of shotguns to such crippling lvls is not a means to balence them out for gameplay. Yes a nerf needs to happen, but not a destrutive one as it currently is. I was trying to alure to is a proactive nerf, one that would again push the shotguns into a position where you would have to habe risks for your reward.

 

The real-life specification of shotguns are largely irrelevant to what they are in context to Warframe, or any videogame that is not trying to achieve simulation-level realism. In Warframe, balance of weapons is necessary to allow weapons other than shotguns to be desirable depending on the players given playstyle and situation.

 

And, to be completely honest, I do not entirely agree with this current nerf being as destructive as some people seem to believe.

 

I have played several games post-shotgun nerf using both the Hek and the Strun, and not once did I find myself in a position where I was not able to accomplish my task of killing things with said shotguns to great effect. The enormous potential for mobility makes using a shotgun in Warframe a much, much easier task than nearly any other game, as I am able to move into optimal ranges easily and efficiently. And these ranges are NOT so close that I could touch them. The effective shotgun range is still several paces away from targets, but is not so far away that it becomes a one-wonder weapon.

 

Example: Earlier, I was in a position which I jumped down from a grate into a group of 6-7 Grineer. As I was already in optimal range for the use of my shotgun, I was able to dispatch the entire group with minimal effort, afforded to me by the quick killing power of the shotgun combined with the spread allowing for ease of accuracy. Almost immediately after that engagement, several Grineer fired upon me from an elevated platform across a chasm; I found that I was not able to use my shotgun to its optimal effect, and I found other methods of dealing with the situation by switching to my Lex. I either switched to my Lex, or disengaged the enemy completely and moved towards them in order to bring them into my optimal shotgun range. If I had my Braton Vandal in this exact situation, I could have dealt with the Grineer on the distanced platform easily, however my previous engagement with the 6-7 Grineer discovered upon entering the room would not have been nearly as smooth; the Braton Vandal does not have the instantaneous killing power of my Hek, meaning that the enemies would have been alive longer, thus delivered more damage to me, while the close range would make my accurate but narrow line of fire less effective. That, to me, is the essence of Warframe's weapon balancing; every player is capable of using any weapon to match their playstyle, but upon doing so will be met with challenges and consequences attached to their weapon of choice.

 

The biggest drawback for the Hek isn't its fast firing, its long reload, or even a limited clip. Rather it is its tight spread itself. The Hek is hard to use if something is right next to you, unlike normal high spread, crowd control shotguns. In reality the Hek is a buckshot rifle, it is a super full choke shotgun, and the only true way to balence it and keep its range would be a nerf to its other stats, not including damage. As damage would amp upward with compression, as stated before.

 

I agree with you that, currently, post-nerf Hek's ability to act as a shotgun is detracted from by its tight spread. However, now it acts like a more precise shotgun; at ranges comparable to other shotguns, proper aim will afford Hek uses a more centralized spread of pellets in vital areas that the Boar and the Strun cannot do. To me, I see that as a balance.

 

Increasing the range on the Hek to rifle-levels without reducing its killing power to rifle-level damage would only server to re-break the weapon and return it back to its original state. The limited clip and reload are not nearly as important as damage and range in this scenario, because shotgun damage and rifle range affords free time between kills that trumps what the limited clip and reload time's normal detriments would provide.

 

Rather a combination of set ammo, no crits (which do add alot more then you think, I normally hit between 24-28 a pellet on grineer at lvl 60, and a head shot pushs that to 35-40s), a longer reload time, and slower firing speed. It would push it to be a support in force weapon, where the idea is to take down targets quickly in order to remove their damage fromt he field outright. Again if the firespeed, reload time, clip count, where changed and locked into place so they can no longer be modded for one. And secondly crits being removed as a whole from the gun it would lower its full DPS by atleast 30% or more.

 

A large majority of shotgun damage is not from crits, unless you mod for them specifically. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but removing crits would not balance the Hek enough to perform the way it did prior to this nerf. The innate damage and range were too great. The ammo economy was too great. It just wouldn't not be a major detriment or balancing factor. The only way I can see the Hek returning to its original long-distance range would be to reduce it's damage SEVERELY, while perhaps keeping the rest of its original stats. To perhaps even 70 damage for a full pellet spread.

 

If you want rifle-level ranges, it needs comparable rifle-level damage and balances.

[Prepoznator]

Why did they nerf the hek when u need rank 4 to even get it, by that rank u should be able to learn to play with other weapons, i dont use hek in a long time but i dont support the nerfing RANKED weapons,they  SHOULD be powerfull or else u are loosing the point with the rank system as atm it doesent bring u anything after level 4.....