New Enemies In Void Make Obsolete 90+ Weapons From Being Usable

[Garuger]

Corrupted Nulifiers (even the normal ones) have one huge downside.. they die if you so much as sneeze at them.  They take less damage than most Corrupted lancers/crewman.  The furis line of side arms (even the basic furis) are exceptionally effective on nulifiers and rank anf flie units, so not sure why you dismissed them as not effective.

I waas mentioning the ones in void . Indeed furis weapons are great against nulifiers but for how long? A normal mission would be okay with them but if you go void defence etc when you use furis u defeat nulifiers but u wont be able to counter bombards and other enemies because of the damage drop . All the weapons i mentioned that are not good for void is seen as a total having all enemies around you and not just considering nulifiers .

Grinlok is literally the only rifle i touch anymore

 

Latron P and wraith just dont exist to me

 

I know w far it can go and how far behind it is...

 

But still youre absolutely right about nullifiers

 

Theyre terrible

Especially with deadly sequence grinlock is mazing \o/

[Garuger]

 

Problem being, nullifiers largely don't do that - they just gimp options by tanking the viability of weapons with small mags and low RoF (weapons which were already disincentivized compared to high-RoF weapons, given the horde-based nature of the game).

 

Enemies pigeon-holing the player into a particular set of weapons to remain effective was the primary reason for the switch to Damage 2.0.

 

Too many people fail to grasp the concept that other players are perfectly capable of dealing with such enemies, it's just that it largely isn't fun or engaging.

Thus void becomes more and more rainbow builds and specific weapons to counter the enemie . So void is now damage 1.0 all over again? -_-

[Apps1995]

For the bombards i feel that a Loki is a must have due to radiating disarm, if you ingore that threat the nullifiers are the only remaining problem

[AMDMAD]

For the bombards i feel that a Loki is a must have due to radiating disarm, if you ingore that threat the nullifiers are the only remaining problem

That is fine and dandy until bombards spawn inside the nulifiers shield and are immune to disarm which make loki useless . Thus you are dead meat either way because you must aim nulifiers eat all the magazine on them to actually kill them and if you are alive from the guide missiles of bombards then you may be able to disarm them . However the things get even more complicated because you have to also watch every enemy around you and since they spawn around you nulifiers flank you with enormus shields that protects your enemies and absorb all the the damage that is aimed towards them . See how big is the problem now?

[TwoCrabs]

almost all newly added units(infested and void) completely RUIN the FUN of the game for me :( bombards and nullifiers are easily able to one shot you and the infested turned my favourite faction to go up against into my now least favourite, becaus of all the CC and screen shaking.


none of the new units are well designed or thought through:

nullifiers: imo theyre well designed but their dmg output is STUPID! they deal over 1000 dmg on level 40 meaning they one shot most squichy frames
(loki is the best example since hes only able to survive due to his invisibility, yet nullifieres make the whole frame """"""useless"""""")

bombards: same dmg output as nullifieres just even more long ranged and UNAVOIDABLE


infested:
broodmother: well designed I like it.
boiler: well designed I like them(both of these units feel as if they belong in the infested armee imo)

moas.:....where do I beginn?they constantly turn your screen dark and slow you down(the screen effect is annoying, np with the slow)
BUT why do they deal this absurd amount of dmg?? why do they spawn in a ratio of 2moas per 3runners?why do they still have the stupid moa shockwave???? we already have to watch out for ancient hooks, slows, broodlings, crawlers, and boiler explosion while having the weird screen effect!
infested are just one big CLUSTERFUCK of awefullness nowdays please de this isnt fun, this isnt even challenging it is just plain annyoing.

how would I fix it?

-remove the lanka from the nullifiers, give them a tetra they really dont need this damage output, theyre a support unit.
-bombards should not have THIS much damage and 100% accuracy a slight nerf to both is needed(make them just normal bombards those are well designed imo)
- mutalist moas shouldnt deal any damage at all if you ask me they already slow the player.

-decrease the spawnrate of nullifiers and moas theyre WAYYYYYYY too common.
-remove or decrease the weird spore screen effect of the moas. it doesnt add to gameplay its just annoying.

 

 

 

well those are my two cents. agree with me or not lately if been exclusivly playing against the grineer just becasue theyre the least annyoing faction right now :( they used to be the most difficult and hardcore one but man these guis are just a bunch of nerds in comparison.
Ive been here since the open beta release and I will certainly stay but cmon DE this is not what we asked for we asked for more challenge not......this :(

[Apps1995]

That is fine and dandy until bombards spawn inside the nulifiers shield and are immune to disarm which make loki useless . Thus you are dead meat either way because you must aim nulifiers eat all the magazine on them to actually kill them and if you are alive from the guide missiles of bombards then you may be able to disarm them . However the things get even more complicated because you have to also watch every enemy around you and since they spawn around you nulifiers flank you with enormus shields that protects your enemies and absorb all the the damage that is aimed towards them . See how big is the problem now?

Yeah, that happens a lot when you hit higher rounds or you get higher than 25 min in the void, the enemies start to accumulate. When a temmate falls, sorrounded by 4 nulifiers and with lots of enemies inside you're basically screwed, no matter what build are you using.

[AMDMAD]

Yeah, that happens a lot when you hit higher rounds or you get higher than 25 min in the void, the enemies start to accumulate. When a temmate falls, sorrounded by 4 nulifiers and with lots of enemies inside you're basically screwed, no matter what build are you using.

That is why Kohm is one of the best weapons to deal against them . The pure magnitude of it spread / speed and damage can kill everything . it just is not efficient enough

Edited January 6, 2015 by AMDMAD

[Loswaith]

I waas mentioning the ones in void . Indeed furis weapons are great against nulifiers but for how long? A normal mission would be okay with them but if you go void defence etc when you use furis u defeat nulifiers but u wont be able to counter bombards and other enemies because of the damage drop . All the weapons i mentioned that are not good for void is seen as a total having all enemies around you and not just considering nulifiers .

This is why you have 3 weapons at your disposal, so you can use and cover all aspects with the three options.  While the furis line can deal with the rank and file units, you take a primary weapon to deal with the heavies.  No single weapon is meant to beable to deal with everything (though some can) and if your only looking at them that way they will obviously have short comings.

 

The Furis line will happilly still shred Nulifiers of level 50+  (where they arent really even handling the crewman/lancers anymore) which is when the scalling of enemy damage/health is starting to get out of hand anyway that most frames are made impotent, thus the game isnt really designed to handle that.

 

Sure Nulifiers need work but they arent the core of the issue, scalling is.  We got the enemies working togeather as plenty of people asked for this, and they gain more power as a whole for working togeather, just like if groups of players work togeather.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Loswaith

[AMDMAD]

This is why you have 3 weapons at your disposal, so you can use and cover all aspects with the three options.  While the furis line can deal with the rank and file units, you take a primary weapon to deal with the heavies.  No single weapon is meant to beable to deal with everything (though some can) and if your only looking at them that way they will obviously have short comings.

 

The Furis line will happilly still shred Nulifiers of level 50+  (where they arent really even handling the crewman/lancers anymore) which is when the scalling of enemy damage/health is starting to get out of hand anyway that most frames are made impotent, thus the game isnt really designed to handle that.

 

Sure Nulifiers need work but they arent the core of the issue, scalling is.  We got the enemies working togeather as plenty of people asked for this, and they gain more power as a whole for working togeather, just like if groups of players work togeather.

Basicually you have 2 weapons in late levels because if you try to meelee them in high levels you almost got one shot from lanka . Furis is indeed good but it is too uneficient vs nulifiera . Sure it shreds them but how many can it supress before running out? Or are you suggesting to have secondary just for nulifiers and primary for everything else? Because if you suggest is true then the primary should be made just for nulifiers and secondary for heavy enemies since secondaries have way better mods than the primaries

[Macdermott]

my sentinel's shotgun two-shots the nullifier's shield. is this intentional?

[AMDMAD]

my sentinel's shotgun two-shots the nullifier's shield. is this intentional?

I have no idea ._. . It ma ybe random targeting and it is not ver y reliable so even if it does it is hard to tell

[Apps1995]

After some testing,  the best guns that obliterate nullifiers are the syndicate secondaries, like marelok, akbolto and specially the gammacor. It seems that AoE completely ignores their shields. is that so?

[TaylorsContraction]

Seems somehow some people posting here don't know the simple fact that late into endless void modes (past 20 minutes) nullifiers start spawning in groups of 2 or 3. In addition they will be accompanied by 2 or 3 bombards. This combination as many have pointed out is impossible to deal with. You can't walk into that bubble you just can't. Not "may" walk into the bubble but can't.

 

Can't because you'll be dead long before you reach it. Every run I have done in the past few weeks people die due to bombards BUT not because they took a missile to the face. Because they took splash damage through a wall or a door. I honestly have lost count how many times I've been killed through doors and thinking what happend (door isn't open mind you). Then I get revived, we open the door and bam 3 bombards just blasting away.

 

Point is, Bombards hit through doors and cover, and so do the NULLIFIERS! As I've learned Lanka's punch through (which I thought requires charging the shot) works very well in the hands of the nullifier. Often times as I am closing the distance to a nullifer for a point blank shot I kill the small fodder around them. In two instances I would take cover to reload my gun and get pawned through the wall. I think that's fine and I know better now. My point is, there comes a point in which you cannot close the gap to the nullifier because he has a bombard entourage that will own you. While in the bubble nothing can be done to them and you can't just waltz up to them  and slide melee quickly. I've seen bombard rockets literally do a 180 and follow me and hit me after I do a slide attack to kill a nullifier with a bombat pal in his bubble. It's definitely "oh for freaking sake you gotta be kidding me" moment. Let me re-iterate 2 or 3 bubbles stacked on each other. You take out one, it shrinks smaller than another, you start hitting that one cus you can't hit anything else, it shrinks and you start hitting the 3rd one. By the time you get the 3rd one down the first is regenerating, all the while there are volleys of missiles coming your way.

 

Sorry for the ranty response but people saying "go in bubble and shoot it", or take out the bubble then shoot it seem to not have experienced the same things as I have. We need some way to counter these bubbles other than shooting them x amount of times.

[AMDMAD]

After some testing,  the best guns that obliterate nullifiers are the syndicate secondaries, like marelok, akbolto and specially the gammacor. It seems that AoE completely ignores their shields. is that so?

No AOE does not by pass shields they just have better mods and able to deal with them better

[AMDMAD]

Seems somehow some people posting here don't know the simple fact that late into endless void modes (past 20 minutes) nullifiers start spawning in groups of 2 or 3. In addition they will be accompanied by 2 or 3 bombards. This combination as many have pointed out is impossible to deal with. You can't walk into that bubble you just can't. Not "may" walk into the bubble but can't.

 

Can't because you'll be dead long before you reach it. Every run I have done in the past few weeks people die due to bombards BUT not because they took a missile to the face. Because they took splash damage through a wall or a door. I honestly have lost count how many times I've been killed through doors and thinking what happend (door isn't open mind you). Then I get revived, we open the door and bam 3 bombards just blasting away.

 

Point is, Bombards hit through doors and cover, and so do the NULLIFIERS! As I've learned Lanka's punch through (which I thought requires charging the shot) works very well in the hands of the nullifier. Often times as I am closing the distance to a nullifer for a point blank shot I kill the small fodder around them. In two instances I would take cover to reload my gun and get pawned through the wall. I think that's fine and I know better now. My point is, there comes a point in which you cannot close the gap to the nullifier because he has a bombard entourage that will own you. While in the bubble nothing can be done to them and you can't just waltz up to them  and slide melee quickly. I've seen bombard rockets literally do a 180 and follow me and hit me after I do a slide attack to kill a nullifier with a bombat pal in his bubble. It's definitely "oh for freaking sake you gotta be kidding me" moment. Let me re-iterate 2 or 3 bubbles stacked on each other. You take out one, it shrinks smaller than another, you start hitting that one cus you can't hit anything else, it shrinks and you start hitting the 3rd one. By the time you get the 3rd one down the first is regenerating, all the while there are volleys of missiles coming your way.

 

Sorry for the ranty response but people saying "go in bubble and shoot it", or take out the bubble then shoot it seem to not have experienced the same things as I have. We need some way to counter these bubbles other than shooting them x amount of times.

So true . However Shield transference does help alot and when i mean alot i mean ALOT . You take almost no knockback from bombards and their splash damage and it can tank the lanka shots . With it you MAY have a chance to be able to tank them just for a few crucial seconds

[geninrising]

After some testing,  the best guns that obliterate nullifiers are the syndicate secondaries, like marelok, akbolto and specially the gammacor. It seems that AoE completely ignores their shields. is that so?

Actually a funny thing occurs with explosives of all variety and the aoe of syndicate weapons, see reply below.

No AOE does not by pass shields they just have better mods and able to deal with them better

Explosions of whatever form can and will hit enemies inside, HOWEVER the explosions will not hit the nullifier itself.

 

Lately I have been using the Torid a bit, Sancti Castanas, Synoid Gamacore, Tellos AKBoltos, Vaycor Marelok and also doing some testing with the Angstrum. I found that you can hit grenades/Castanas on the floor near the Nullifer, the explosion will hit targets inside that it can reach. The same thing goes for the Syndicate weapons, all targets except the nullifiers that can be reached will sustain damage.

[AMDMAD]

 

Lately I have been using the Torid a bit, Sancti Castanas, Synoid Gamacore, Tellos AKBoltos, Vaycor Marelok and also doing some testing with the Angstrum. I found that you can hit grenades/Castanas on the floor near the Nullifer, the explosion will hit targets inside that it can reach. The same thing goes for the Syndicate weapons, all targets except the nullifiers that can be reached will sustain damage.

Yeah it is kinda weird that some aoe can hit other mobs but not nullifier and also sancti castana bounces back if you throw it at its shield XD

[geninrising]

Penetration is great, but damage having more impact on shields would be even better.

 

Kohm is the best weapon to deal with Nullifiers, but you need lots of ammo restores to feed it.

Kohm does not need ammo restores. DO NOT USE SPEED TRIGGER OR FRAIL MOMENTUM. If you must get a fire rate mod in there use Accelerated Blast. Additionally to conserve ammo make sure you utilize a maxed out ammo mutation and I use a Tainted shell ranked high enough to where you get a smaller amount of spread and still have a tiny bit of bonus fire rate from Accelerated.

 

I can currently run on average 1hr in a t4 survival(longest run was 1 hr 45 min,w/o ammo restore) without using a single ammo restore. Additionally when you encounter any heavy unit swap to a high damage secondary and take their heads. Mod the secondary for Radiation as it does more damage to the cloned flesh of Heavy Gunners and Bombards, which is what you will hit if on a long survival because everyone should have on a CP RIGHT???

 

Corrupted Nullifiers should be fixed by now. if not, all of this talk is moot, as they'd still be using the wrong Shield.

assuming they are however.

They are NOT fixed yet. DERebecca posted that they are testing them trying to find a solution to our complaints.

 

each Instance of Damage will reduce the Shield by a maximum amount. i would concur that this hits Precision Weapons harder than others still because of that.

i'll reiterate that. the Shield can only reduce by so much per instance of Damage.

This is the majority of the problem. Due to the fact that high ROF weapons apply more instances of DMG faster the bubble shrinks faster.

 

and... well, like other things like that, Crits don't apply to the Nullifier Shield.

that's by far what people feel the most when shooting a Nullifier Shield. most of the Precision Weapons are Crit Weighted and therefore get hit pretty hard (double hit due to the maximum reduction rate).

This REALLY kills high dmg low ROF, crit weapons, and Amprex/Synapse.

 

 

you even included atleast one Shotgun as a 'good' Weapon choice for Nullifier Shields, which clearly shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually there are 2 shotgun classed weapons that utterly waste nullifiers and are both viable t4 gear, but this is because of their damage dealing method. Kohm and Phage are really fantastic at this.

 

(oh, and Punch-Through shouldn't pierce the Nullifier Shield. that just completely defeats the Enemy entirely. that's easymode.jpg - you have a direct counter to the Enemy that is countering some of what we're capable of doing)

This^

 

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on a side note, i concur that the Corrupted Bombards' Missile should have a flight time. not what appears to be infinite. so you could theoretically outrun it or whatever if for some reason you can't dump it into a wall.

I think they should lose tracking completely and go wild if you can get further than 90 degrees to the side, slide under, or leap over them.

 

 

Not to mention every shot counts only as 1 shot no matter the weapon .

For example if you have an Angstrum and charge it , it will do the same damage  even if it is charged  or not. Same goes for Shotguns etc .

This is broken!

 

 

The only weapons i came to conclusion to have both the damage and the ammo/magazine combo ability to fits our characteristics (we are talking about only for primaries atm ) are the following : Tetra/Boltor prime /Soma / Soma prime /Quanta / Braton prime . Other would be Supra / Gorgon Wraith

Tetra?? Did you just say the Tetra was a good weapon for killing nullifiers AND a good all around weapon for the Void?? What kind of drugs are you on and where can I get some.

 

Same thing happens with burst weapons it counts the burst as 1 shot along with the explosive weapon it still is 1 . So far we had only 6 viable primary weapons from the total of 56 which makes the ratio so low almost unresonably low .

This is certainly not good as it further pigeonholes player choice.

 

And now we go to the secondaries which have the same set of rules Cestras are out because even if they have good magazine ratio they have low damage and it shows so out of with them . Dex furis , akfuris , furis , all the vipers (wraith etc) are out (low damage ) , hikou , kunai , despair out also along with akstilleto , akzani . WHich leads us the viable secondaries in void are Gammacor synoid / Marelok Vaykor, marelok  / Telos akbolto ,akbolto  / brakk are the most likely weapons to be able to handle them thanks to very fast reload , damage output and auras (that help) . Thus 6 secondaries are mostly viable from a total of 57 secondaries .

Um Marelok, Vaykor Marelock, and Brakk all suffer from the problem with damage per round limitations/shrink limitations on the bubble.

 

P.S:Bombards are broken because infite range snping , guided missiles , huge aoe that by pass frost and very tanky

Agreed on the AOE thing. If the Shield stops bullets, why does the aoe penetrate?

 

My suggestion is allow penetration mods (like shred pass throught it ) along with blast ( bombards do in frost shield)and reduce the nulifier shield at least 50% or more . Imean it is bigger than the frost excimus moving globe 

This could work but it would completely remove the threat entirely a most primaries utilize Shred unless they are explosive thus it would generate another level of bias working against explosive varieties of weapons.

 

By simply reading and trying to correlate my experience with what the OP says I deduce that he did not in fact actually perform much testing at all.

 

In fact there are many weapons that can do the job he is looking for that easily run to 40-50 min t4 survival HOWEVER they will make it exceedingly difficult to get the job done. What we have here is an enemy that was for some reason designed with certain factors hard coded into it's mechanics that make it very difficult for some weapons and very easy for other weapons. This was done I think in an effort to actually make the enemy dangerous and certain factors presented too much of a problem for the enemy so DE in it's flawed wisdom decided to put a gate on how fast we could tackle the problem that ended up making certain weapons utterly deplorable at handling this enemy.

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

[taiiat]

I can currently run on average 1hr in a t4 survival(longest run was 1 hr 45 min,w/o ammo restore) without using a single ammo restore. Additionally when you encounter any heavy unit swap to a high damage secondary and take their heads. Mod the secondary for Radiation as it does more damage to the cloned flesh of Heavy Gunners and Bombards, which is what you will hit if on a long survival because everyone should have on a CP RIGHT???

- i think the idea is to not be forced to use another Weapon on half of the Enemies because it can't handle them Ammunition wise.

 

- .... Radiation doesn't do any bonus Damage to the Health of anything except the Fusion MOA's and Shield Ospreys.

if your Squad is using 4 Corrosive Projections, then you should be using Viral / Heat.

if Fusion MOA's ever become a problem for your Weapons (i've heard of some people having issues with them before), use Viral / Electricity.

 

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no, high RoF Weapons don't shrink the bubble faster. there is a maximum shrink rate per second.

a MK-1 Braton can hit this maximum shrink rate per second.

things that shoot really slow, and rely on Crits, however, get the short end of the stick.

 

 

Kohm gets away with being a Shotgun against Nullifier Shields because it's Projectiles will bounce all over the place(Drakgoon doesn't have this benefit, it's Projectiles stay grouped), therefore hitting at different timings, meaning you won't waste your shots.

and Phage isn't a Shotgun. it only uses their Mods, it's an 8 Beamed Continuous Weapon.

 

 

ultimately i'd prefer Corrupted Bombard Missiles to have a maximum Range, and maximum Flight Time.

having a Missile chase you for an eternity through the map after the host is already dead is just ridiculous.

 

i get that they're more dangerous because they're more accurate at tracking, and can avoid walls sometimes, but them being able to do it forever, wtf.

 

them flying around forever may attribute to some of the random Blast Effects and knockdowns and death that happens in Survival IV sometimes. and if they fly around long enough, maybe something goes wrong. because in those situations where there's a random Blast Effect that isn't from a Plasma Grenade, i look back, and there's no Missile Trail (which lasts a few seconds so if there was one there it should be there when i look).

so my working theory currently being that sometimes Corrupted Bombard Missiles turn invisible. no trail or anything, just invisible cheating.

not enough sample data to prove or disprove it currently though.

 

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here's a thought though.

perhaps we could introduce a Mod for all classes of Guns.

this Mod would be something along the lines of N% bypass on certain things. allowing Players to have a fraction of their Damage bypass Nullifier Shields, Enemy Snowglobes, maybe even protections like Riot Shields, Minibosses, Bosses.

 

now, comes the balance problem with this. even a few percent would basically invalidate Nullifier Crewman as an Enemy because they're Glass Cannons.

and same problem but far less drastic on any other Enemy this works on (except Riot Shields because Punch-Through does that already).

Edited January 14, 2015 by taiiat