Saryn´s Moult Nerf

[DeusInsania]

One of the highly exploitable ways Saryn was used was in defense missions. For example I (being volt) was in a party with an Excalibur, Saryn and Nyx. We were doing an infest mission on one of the higher level planets. We got the space ship map and to the left was a bridge. The Saryn moulted under it and by doing so, the mobs would aggro to it and try to attack it but not be able to destroy it due to them not reaching it. Then the nyx would use chaos and make the large infested mobs fight each other while the Excal and I pumped out dmg along with the other two frames (one even had a shotgun i think). We easily soared to lv 25 with none of us ever needing a revive and even then we decided to quit just to not push our luck (probably could have gotten to 30 but I don't know who the enemy toughness scales past 20 since I had previously never gotten that far). Other than this incident (which gave me tons of exp and mods <33) I have no clue how else they were exploited. This nerf does make me sad because I literally just started the 3day wait for my Saryn to build and was possibly even thinking about getting plat to rush it but I think I'll hold off doing that..

[GTG3000]

One of the highly exploitable ways Saryn was used was in defense missions. For example I (being volt) was in a party with an Excalibur, Saryn and Nyx. We were doing an infest mission on one of the higher level planets. We got the space ship map and to the left was a bridge. The Saryn moulted under it and by doing so, the mobs would aggro to it and try to attack it but not be able to destroy it due to them not reaching it. Then the nyx would use chaos and make the large infested mobs fight each other while the Excal and I pumped out dmg along with the other two frames (one even had a shotgun i think). We easily soared to lv 25 with none of us ever needing a revive and even then we decided to quit just to not push our luck (probably could have gotten to 30 but I don't know who the enemy toughness scales past 20 since I had previously never gotten that far). Other than this incident (which gave me tons of exp and mods <33) I have no clue how else they were exploited. This nerf does make me sad because I literally just started the 3day wait for my Saryn to build and was possibly even thinking about getting plat to rush it but I think I'll hold off doing that..

 

Oh, so... the 'exploitableness' is them, deciding that fixing the AI from trying to reach the unreachable is harder than just nerfing the moult?

That's just great. Personally I had no idea, that it could be exploited in any way other than "place it so, if you don't count crows, you could save 25 energy once it regenerates", and for some reason I get a feeling I'm not alone like that. If they wanted to add better scaling, they could make it's HP non-regenerating, but scaling up with the level.

 

ALbeit it seems less silly if my idea about them, experimenting, is correct.

[DeusInsania]

Oh, so... the 'exploitableness' is them, deciding that fixing the AI from trying to reach the unreachable is harder than just nerfing the moult?

That's just great. Personally I had no idea, that it could be exploited in any way other than "place it so, if you don't count crows, you could save 25 energy once it regenerates", and for some reason I get a feeling I'm not alone like that. If they wanted to add better scaling, they could make it's HP non-regenerating, but scaling up with the level.

 

ALbeit it seems less silly if my idea about them, experimenting, is correct.

Yea. Basically on that bridge part of the map if you fall off there it does that teleport thing to you.

[DeusInsania]

I hate to double post but I think this should be shared with everyone. I think this is a great idea IMO: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38401-scaling-of-molt-on-saryn/

[Nuhj]

Why not just make the molted skin affected by gravity. 8[

[MoonicusMaximus]

Moult was being used as a permanent distraction tool in Defense missions to great effect. Saryns were jumping off the sides of platforms and Molts were being cast off the side of pits and other places in view distance of enemies but just outside of their area of attack, which allowed enemies to acquire them as targets and simply stand on the edge of the platform staring at the Molt. For 25 energy. It even regenerated both its health and shield if anything every actually touched it.

 

The nerf was coming, that much was plainly obvious. Now Moult is more in line with Loki's decoy in that it is time-based, meaning that continued use requires more energy. Molts can still be placed under bridges and over pits, but now are a temporary means of deterrence rather than a permanent one made in a single cast.

[Swiftwing]

as was discused earlier Moult is by far inferior to decoy.

 

1,) decoy can be placed without Loki being there. Saryn have to walk to the spot.

2.) decoy is time based, moult is time AND hp based

3.) on lvl 3 decoy lasts 21 sec moult 15

 

the nerf was comming and needed but this was way overnerfed and the skill is now out of the spot and nearly useless

[Kyiliares]

I disagree with that nerf and posted this earlier :

 

Hey :)

 

Thx for that update guys, you're doing great work, but imo, I think Saryn's Moult nerf in kinda crappy.

Actually, there is no point using Moult since Loki's Decoy outperforms its stats :

- Decoy has a better aggro.

- Decoy last longer, even without duration mod.

- Decoy can be placed wherever the player chose, and pretty far from the caster. It also can block lasers while saryn need to take the laser shot to be able to block it with moult.

- Decoy allow loki to switch position, so it has better possibilities than saryn's moult.

- Decoy cost the same energy price as Saryn's Moult, but Loki can cast it 4 times since it has more energy than Saryn.

- Decoy mod cost less to equip than Moult (3 vs 4 on affinity slot [halved rounded up at max level]).

So, just tell me, what's the point of using Moult while Decoy is far away better ? I just see none, except wasting mod points.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I just think that setting a timer on Moult is kinda effectiveless, and even more if we just consider the fact that saryn's moult can only be placed on Saryn's position (what shall we do then ? put it somewhere and go back to that place every 20 seconds to cast it again ?)

Maybe we can just find a solution by putting Saryn's Moult duration back to the way it was, but by deleting its Moult's regen.

 

That's my point of view, you may disagree, but I just consider that this nerf retrieved almost all Saryn's gameplay possibilities. There is no more good benefit playing Saryn since its sprint speed only get up to 0.9 (1.17 with rush mod at max, which will at least cost 6 mod points), and Contagion will be no more effective since the duration of Moult don't allow that much possibilities.

 

What do you think of that ? :)

[ScorpDK]

The main issue with Moult was that you could place it wherever and mobs would stop moving because there was no pathing to the target.  The actual FIX to this problem is having the AI ignore it if they cannot find a way towards it (melee) and have no LOS to actually hit it (ranged). The same fix is needed for Loki's decoy.

 

While I agree that a timer was somewhat needed to not make it last forever, the duration it currently has is a bit TOO short for my taste. Might be just the abrupt change from "lasts until destroyed / replaced" to about 20 seconds. Considering she's not a caster, 20 seconds still somehow feels too short considering she can't place it wherever, unlike Loki. Make it 40-60 seconds, which doesn't force Saryn to constantly recast it and burn through her power pool (as power orbs don't drop all the time).

 

Also, don't diss Venom. Put it on a grineer boss and watch how it keeps their shields from regenerating. It is not doing much damage, but as long as you keep it applied, Val Hek and the General are actually Solo'able without having to constantly burn their shields down again.

Edited May 4, 2013 by ScorpDK

[GTG3000]

The main issue with Moult was that you could place it wherever and mobs would stop moving because there was no pathing to the target.  The actual FIX to this problem is having the AI ignore it if they cannot find a way towards it (melee) and have no LOS to actually hit it (ranged). The same fix is needed for Loki's decoy.

 

While I agree that a timer was somewhat needed to not make it last forever, the duration it currently has is a bit TOO short for my taste. Might be just the abrupt change from "lasts until destroyed / replaced" to about 20 seconds. Considering she's not a caster, 20 seconds still somehow feels too short considering she can't place it wherever, unlike Loki. Make it 40-60 seconds, which doesn't force Saryn to constantly recast it and burn through her power pool (as power orbs don't drop all the time).

 

Also, don't diss Venom. Put it on a grineer boss and watch how it keeps their shields from regenerating. It is not doing much damage, but as long as you keep it applied, Val Hek and the General are actually Solo'able without having to constantly burn their shields down again.

 

Well, personally I liked how it was permanent while you could keep it from getting destroyed. Maybe taking away it's ability to regenerate health would fix that, but, quite honestly, it doesn't last long enough while taking beating from high-level enemies to need fixing at all. Not to mention how different it made the ability.

 

As for the AI issue, I sincerely hope that DE plans on resolving that, with his nerf being a temporal solution.

[Dasmir]

I dunno why people are calling saryn useless with this change.

 

Me saryn still having a :

 

-800 True damage DoT, 25 energy and can stacks.

 

-108% Extra poison (True damage) for melee

 

- A WHOOOPING 2k of AoE true damage, also stacks too..

 

Saryn moult still doing his main function : Bait and Soak damage, even with continnuity is enough for defense. I think people are just overreacting.

 

Also you know loki is UBER SQUISHY against saryn you know. (75 health vs 150 base health, 50 armor vs 100....)

 

Inba downvotes.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Dasmir

[Vanadio]

I'm trying to see the reasons behind people believing an endless decoy that could be cast midair trolling hordes of infested is a perfectly reasonable and balanced skill.

 

With no success.

[MedusaGorgon]

I'm trying to see the reasons behind people believing an endless decoy that could be cast midair trolling hordes of infested is a perfectly reasonable and balanced skill.

 

With no success.

It's not, but a time limit shorter than Loki's decoy, less aggro attraction than Loki's decoy, shorter life-span than Loki's decoy, and you can't place it at range like you can with Loki's decoy?

As of right now, Saryn's Moult is just a really really REAALY bad version of Loki's decoy.

You may say that Saryn's molt still has the ability of regenning shield and health, but come on, exactly how much shield and health are you going to regen in 8~15 seconds? Devs might as well remove that part too because it's useless.

[Enomilli]

It's not, but a time limit shorter than Loki's decoy, less aggro attraction than Loki's decoy, shorter life-span than Loki's decoy, and you can't place it at range like you can with Loki's decoy?

As of right now, Saryn's Moult is just a really really REAALY bad version of Loki's decoy.

You may say that Saryn's molt still has the ability of regenning shield and health, but come on, exactly how much shield and health are you going to regen in 8~15 seconds? Devs might as well remove that part too because it's useless.

Interesting...I did not know that you played Warframe as well Medusa...

[MoonicusMaximus]

 

I disagree with that nerf and posted this earlier :

 

Hey :)

 

Thx for that update guys, you're doing great work, but imo, I think Saryn's Moult nerf in kinda crappy.

Actually, there is no point using Moult since Loki's Decoy outperforms its stats :

- Decoy has a better aggro.

- Decoy last longer, even without duration mod.

- Decoy can be placed wherever the player chose, and pretty far from the caster. It also can block lasers while saryn need to take the laser shot to be able to block it with moult.

- Decoy allow loki to switch position, so it has better possibilities than saryn's moult.

- Decoy cost the same energy price as Saryn's Moult, but Loki can cast it 4 times since it has more energy than Saryn.

- Decoy mod cost less to equip than Moult (3 vs 4 on affinity slot [halved rounded up at max level]).

So, just tell me, what's the point of using Moult while Decoy is far away better ? I just see none, except wasting mod points.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I just think that setting a timer on Moult is kinda effectiveless, and even more if we just consider the fact that saryn's moult can only be placed on Saryn's position (what shall we do then ? put it somewhere and go back to that place every 20 seconds to cast it again ?)

Maybe we can just find a solution by putting Saryn's Moult duration back to the way it was, but by deleting its Moult's regen.

 

That's my point of view, you may disagree, but I just consider that this nerf retrieved almost all Saryn's gameplay possibilities. There is no more good benefit playing Saryn since its sprint speed only get up to 0.9 (1.17 with rush mod at max, which will at least cost 6 mod points), and Contagion will be no more effective since the duration of Moult don't allow that much possibilities.

 

What do you think of that ? :)

 

Considering that Loki has no direct attack abilities, while Saryn has 2, Miasma being one of the better, if not the best AoEs on any frame, I'd say Loki having a better decoy ability fits quite nicely in the overall balance of things.

[Dasmir]

Considering that Loki has no direct attack abilities, while Saryn has 2, Miasma being one of the better, if not the best AoEs on any frame, I'd say Loki having a better decoy ability fits quite nicely in the overall balance of things.

 

Exactly moult its only a way to soak a little amount of damage in the go, since loki is the TRUE tactician warframe he deserve a better decoy.

[GTG3000]

I dunno why people are calling saryn useless with this change.

 

Me saryn still having a :

 

-800 True damage DoT, 25 energy and can stacks.

 

-108% Extra poison (True damage) for melee

 

- A WHOOOPING 2k of AoE true damage, also stacks too..

 

Saryn moult still doing his main function : Bait and Soak damage, even with continnuity is enough for defense. I think people are just overreacting.

 

Also you know loki is UBER SQUISHY against saryn you know. (75 health vs 150 base health, 50 armor vs 100....)

 

Inba downvotes.

 

I'm not calling Saryn useless. I am just disappointed to see a rather unique skill suddenly brought back to being a slightly different moult because someone was exploiting a buggy AI.

 

I'm trying to see the reasons behind people believing an endless decoy that could be cast midair trolling hordes of infested is a perfectly reasonable and balanced skill.

 

With no success.

 

You see, that's the point. Trolling hordes of infested isn't reasonable or balanced, but that isn't the fault of Moult, it's the fault of the AI's pathfinding procedure, that can't give up on an unreachable target. It's exploitable even WITHOUT moult, so should I now have a timer attached to how long I stand juuuuuust out of reach of the chargers/ancents when I solo infested missions? I sure hope the answer is no. As much as I believe in DE, it's sort of funny, how they adress a real issue by curing symptoms again, and I hope they bring back functionality of unlimited ranged fire distraction decoy moult had, either by a patch to the pathfinding of AI, that would give up after not finding the way, or by calculating reachability upon moult placement. This IS a real issue, but I'm afraid a few timers won'y cut it.

[Bulag]

Saryn still has good abilities. Moult is just more of a panic button now. It still has it's own health. So it might be destroyed before the timer even ends.

 

They probably should have changed it to being completely time-based. Either that or just force it to be grounded. Maybe have melee ignore it, if they can't hit it?

why a piece of skin can just ignore gravity was beyond me. how it could take a healthy beating was also mind blowing..

Its a chunk of skin she(saryn) shed off. no where was it described to be a gravity defying alt to take beating for u. 

moult will still serve its purpose as a quick distraction.

 

the fact that loki's decoy has a higher duration should also be irrelevant. loki has a cast time for decoy, which everyone knows is a big deal.

(now im not saying mess with decoy. its good as is)

 

my real concern is her(saryn) contagion. cant they just take back the way it acts as another element mod, and just give it similar effects as venom, but as its description says "transmitting disease and plague with each strike that connects with targets." but without ticks too pop.. kinda how those toxic ancient leaving posion debuff.

[fortris]

Saryn still has good abilities. Moult is just more of a panic button now. It still has it's own health. So it might be destroyed before the timer even ends.

 

They probably should have changed it to being completely time-based. Either that or just force it to be grounded. Maybe have melee ignore it, if they can't hit it?

 

NO, THIS MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE. HOW DARE YOU COME UP WITH A REASONABLE AND LOGICAL WAY TO NERF AN OP ABILITY

[Cleesus]

I bought Nyx as my first frame- Nerf

 

I build and claim Saryn a day ago - Nerf

 

Now all i have left is banshee and Frost whenever he gets done building.

[Dredj]

It was also possible to trap(troll) allies with Moult, that's why I thought Moult was changed to have a timer.

 

I don't really mind the change to Moult, I use it when I walk into a room and 10 enemies start shooting me, a panic button as someone suggested. I Moult, step to the side of it and then clean out the room while the enemies shoot it. This still happens even with a 15 second timer.

 

Moult is still working for me. Venom and Miasma are still ace abilities. Contagion... I'm working on it, I don't hate it but I also don't love it. I think what I hate most about Contagion is the cast time, if I could use it on the fly I'd use it all the time. It's why I also like Glaive on the Saryn, charge it and then use Contagion while it's in flight.

 

Saryn is still my favourite frame. 

[CaptainSomalia]

I dunno why people are calling saryn useless with this change.

 

Me saryn still having a :

 

-800 True damage DoT, 25 energy and can stacks.

 

-108% Extra poison (True damage) for melee

 

- A WHOOOPING 2k of AoE true damage, also stacks too..

 

Saryn moult still doing his main function : Bait and Soak damage, even with continnuity is enough for defense. I think people are just overreacting.

 

Also you know loki is UBER SQUISHY against saryn you know. (75 health vs 150 base health, 50 armor vs 100....)

 

Inba downvotes.

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.  Miasma is so much stronger than any other ability for dealing damage - 1700 damage that isn't mitigated by armor. Only other ones which can even hope to compare against armored targets are Bladestorm and Radial Javelin, but they still deal considerably less damage even despite all of the other disadvantages that come with them.

 

Saryn is isn't just fine after the moult change, she is still much better than fine.

Edited May 4, 2013 by CaptainSomalia

[GTG3000]

It was also possible to trap(troll) allies with Moult, that's why I thought Moult was changed to have a timer.

 

I don't really mind the change to Moult, I use it when I walk into a room and 10 enemies start shooting me, a panic button as someone suggested. I Moult, step to the side of it and then clean out the room while the enemies shoot it. This still happens even with a 15 second timer.

 

Moult is still working for me. Venom and Miasma are still ace abilities. Contagion... I'm working on it, I don't hate it but I also don't love it. I think what I hate most about Contagion is the cast time, if I could use it on the fly I'd use it all the time. It's why I also like Glaive on the Saryn, charge it and then use Contagion while it's in flight.

 

Saryn is still my favourite frame. 

 

Yes, mine too.

 

Although, I didn't know that was possible either. Moult still works, but it's now quite limited in applications, and a lot less effective as a distraction on defence.

 

It sort of feels bad to realize that a few &amp;#&#33; clowns, I apologize, players who found the most efficient way to use moult and exploieted as 'I win' (or 'lol u mad?') button make devs nerf unique and good skills for the rest of us. It feels even worse once you understand that both exploits are bugs in the game rather than intended behavior, and statement like "it was really exploitable" implies that this change is as far as fixing those issues will go.

 

It isn't about having an unlimited ability to be somehow superb in usual gameplay than time-limited (although it was quite useful to draw fire on defence missions), it's mostly about the principle. I have faith in DE, and I want to believe that the way they were adressing real issues with more than severe nerfs in last two patches is just them, using the beta to experiment with the adjustments, as opposed to the way they will always handle this. 

 

I would hate the complex issues to be approached in a way "nerf to the ground in the simpler way and see if comunity rises up against it before trying the hard and right one".

 

I want to believe.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I'm not calling Saryn useless. I am just disappointed to see a rather unique skill suddenly brought back to being a slightly different moult because someone was exploiting a buggy AI.

 

 

You see, that's the point. Trolling hordes of infested isn't reasonable or balanced, but that isn't the fault of Moult, it's the fault of the AI's pathfinding procedure, that can't give up on an unreachable target. It's exploitable even WITHOUT moult, so should I now have a timer attached to how long I stand juuuuuust out of reach of the chargers/ancents when I solo infested missions? I sure hope the answer is no. As much as I believe in DE, it's sort of funny, how they adress a real issue by curing symptoms again, and I hope they bring back functionality of unlimited ranged fire distraction decoy moult had, either by a patch to the pathfinding of AI, that would give up after not finding the way, or by calculating reachability upon moult placement. This IS a real issue, but I'm afraid a few timers won'y cut it.

 

If units ignored unreachable molts and decoys, then molts would be CONSIDERABLY less useful. Much, much more useful than having them set on a timer accomplishes. Think about what you are trying to explain here; if molts did not have a timer and the AI was fixed, they would just run past the molt towards the cryopod. And if you put a molt down in an area where the AI can hit it and deems it possible, the molt doesn't last long anyway. The purpose of it lasting eternally would become null and void; molts wouldn't HAVE a reason to last longer than 16 seconds, as they would be extinguished by that point or prior to that point. Until DE deems fit to update their AI, nerfing Saryn's Moult still accomplishes what it originally set out to do in a timely manner before it gets further out of hand.

 

As it is, you can still soft-tank hordes of infested with Saryn's Moult through clever placement, you just have to spend more energy and expose yourself more to actually accomplish the task, like Loki is forced to. Aside from Defense missions where you essentially exploit with it regardless, molts used during other missions also are unaffected by the time change; there are very seldom reasons you'd need the decoy to last longer than 16 seconds in any mission, as you are constantly moving anyway and most engagements with enemies do not last long.

[GTG3000]

If units ignored unreachable molts and decoys, then molts would be CONSIDERABLY less useful. Much, much more useful than having them set on a timer accomplishes. Think about what you are trying to explain here; if molts did not have a timer and the AI was fixed, they would just run past the molt towards the cryopod. And if you put a molt down in an area where the AI can hit it and deems it possible, the molt doesn't last long anyway. The purpose of it lasting eternally would become null and void; molts wouldn't HAVE a reason to last longer than 16 seconds, as they would be extinguished by that point or prior to that point. Until DE deems fit to update their AI, nerfing Saryn's Moult still accomplishes what it originally set out to do in a timely manner before it gets further out of hand.

 

As it is, you can still soft-tank hordes of infested with Saryn's Moult through clever placement, you just have to spend more energy and expose yourself more to actually accomplish the task, like Loki is forced to. Aside from Defense missions where you essentially exploit with it regardless, molts used during other missions also are unaffected by the time change; there are very seldom reasons you'd need the decoy to last longer than 16 seconds in any mission, as you are constantly moving anyway and most engagements with enemies do not last long.

 

Thank you for a detailed response.

I see where you coming from, yet as a person who never actually exploited moult (call me stupid, why don't you), I say that it would be about as useful as it was, if the ai was fixed. You note though that I used words "give up" rather than "ignore", and I think you will agree that having a way to slow down infested so they would form a nice and cc-able crowd would still work well.

Adding a proper scaling to the moults health/shields (and, possibly, the distraction time before the enemy gives up) would work quite nicely in place of a timer for the still reachable moult.