Dera Vandal Is The Strongest Gun In Pvp. There's No "if" "and" Or "buts" About It.

[vGrayFox]

There is no question the Dera Vandal is the stongest gun in pvp. I don't care about what the stats are or the ttk or whatever people like bring up. This gun is downright powerful. I have entered countless battles, were I begin to get on a "spree". And out of no where, people flip the script to spam Dera V. Interesting, isn't it? It's because they know the Dera is crazy strong. I don't have the gun for myself, but the clip seems very extended. As people often "Jump" spam using the weapon.

 

It mows through anything and anyone. Can Dera V users be killed? Yes. However, it's an end all gun atm. This is just my perspective and my experience. I know I can't be the only who knows/feels that gun is ridiculous overpowered.

The damage is high, the bullet come out like paintballs on rapid fire, and the magazine/clip most be extremely long.

[princoded]

Agree..its the most broken wep...but the pro will say its not overpower. .if uts not overpower why so many ppl use it

[Guest Pun-chee]

Dev's are in holidays currently, I'm pretty sure next hotfix/update there will be a nerf - considering how many are using the gun (they seem to nerf overused gear).

 

I for one didn't have any problems with Dera V users. Even Vanilla Dera always was very strong, but almost nobody used/uses it.

[Dzecar]

I didnt seen a single dera(vandal) recently. And its not as OP as you think it is

[_BUSHIDO_]

Well if You know how to move properly nothing is Op.

However The dps is too high and the weapon is really easy to use. A nerf in terms of dps will be good, people who are good will still use it and other Player will just try to find somethihg more "cheesy" to exploit

[(XBOX)Tylers Legend]

Agree..its the most broken wep...but the pro will say its not overpower. .if uts not overpower why so many ppl use it

Just because a lot of people use something, doesn't make it overpowered. It could be extremely easy and fun to use, still doesn't make it overpowered.

[Drinniol]

It's definitely top tier, but OP?

 

Right now, I see a good balance of top players using Dera Vandal, various shotguns, and Burston/Sybaris/Latron all with good success.  Plus the occasional melee build or bow/penta/opticor users. 

 

Right now, I feel like Dera Vandal is in the perfect spot with regards to decently skilled players.  Its incredible strength and high projectile speed is just barely enough to keep it usable against decent players despite the inherent weakness of projectile vs. hitscan. 

 

Where this falls apart, is when you're against not-decent players aka 'right-clickers'.  Noobs tend to not move much, and noob vs. noob fights usually devolve into "I'll aim down sights and slowly wiggle back and forth" kind of battles.  In such battles, it's pretty much just who has the strongest methods because you basically CAN'T miss against a right-clicker.  In other words, in low-skill scenarios, fights are decided by loadouts and this feels bad. 

 

It's the exact same thing as with melee.  With the right weapon, if you know what you're doing, melee is a very close to guaranteed and instant kill if you can actually get into melee with someone without dieing. Against GOOD players, this is EXTREMELY hard to do unless they are distracted and you blindside them.  To the point that, in a straight annihilation, you're better off just ignoring a player who is actively avoiding your melee and going for someone else - maybe those juicy right-clickers who never jump and are worth the same Oro.

 

So we have this situation where against experienced players melee is in a good or even weak spot, and against new players or simply less skilled players it is overwhelmingly powerful. Do you nerf it to balance for the experience of noobs, and leave melee useless in real matches? 

 

We're in an exactly parallel situation, I think, with Dera Vandal.  It's a good weapon.  By far the strongest projectile assault rifle - and yet, that only makes it competitive, not overbearing, due to the inherent weakness of projectiles against opponents who actually know how to be evasive.  Yet in low-skill matches, the weakness of being a projectile weapon isn't apparent, and the Dera Vandal dominates.  Do we change it to fix it?  I don't think we should. I don't think it fixes anything.  Good players will still completely bully noobs no matter what weapon they use, and noob vs. noob will still be decided largely by loadouts - it's just that the "top tier" loadout will shift a bit. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Drinniol

[Feyangol]

Maybe it's just my way of playing (well, I do move a lot ... ), but the Dera V doesn't seem as strong as you make it ... Sure this thing has some really nice dmg, but it doesn't matter, if you don't get hit that often. It is a precision weapon and you have to anticipate the movement of your opponent to use it properly, so it takes a good amount of skill to actually use this weapon against an experienced opponent.

Even so, I do agree, that it is quite strong against player of a lower skill level, but that is not particularly a problem of the Dera V but of the whole class of automatic weapons. Automatic weapons need to have more dmg in a fight between two experienced players than in a regular fight due to our high mobility. The most automatic weapons are not pressuring at all in these high level fights, while being perfectly fine in a fight with low skill ceiling. The Dera V has this necessary dmg for a high level automatic weapon, but this makes the weapon too strong against weaker opponents.

 

Don't ask me how to fix this dilemma ... :P

Edited December 26, 2015 by Feyangol

[Nighttide77]

OP complains about a gun they don't have...just have seen other people use...seems oddly familiar...

 

Guess I'll just shimmy on over to using the Boltor Prime and Telos Boltor and see if I can get a trend started on that...cuz there isn't much difference in damage between the two except small bits of recoil and spread.

[SevenLetterKWord]

 

There is no question the Dera Vandal is the stongest gun in pvp. I don't care about what the stats are or the ttk or whatever people like bring up. This gun is downright powerful. I have entered countless battles, were I begin to get on a "spree". And out of no where, people flip the script to spam Dera V. Interesting, isn't it? It's because they know the Dera is crazy strong. I don't have the gun for myself, but the clip seems very extended. As people often "Jump" spam using the weapon.

 

Here is an excerpt from one of vGrayFox's own topics:

Looking at "PvP feedback" has somewhat baffled me. I have never seen so many inconsequential complaints ever in a game. "Nerf this!!!" "Take that out" "It's too strong" and blah blah blah. 

 

"Any Gun I got killed by to fast is to strong,needs super nerf" - Warframe Player

 

"Interesting, isn't it?"

Interesting, isn't it?

[Drinniol]

OP complains about a gun they don't have...just have seen other people use...seems oddly familiar...

 

Guess I'll just shimmy on over to using the Boltor Prime and Telos Boltor and see if I can get a trend started on that...cuz there isn't much difference in damage between the two except small bits of recoil and spread.

 Projectile speed is an under-rated stat.  It's why Dera Vandal > Dera.

[Witchydragon]

 Projectile speed is an under-rated stat.  It's why Dera Vandal > Dera.

I'm fairly certain the Dera/Vandal have the same projectile speed. It's the magazine size that makes the Vandal better than the base. 

[Zeally]

I'd rather it be top dog, than the easy to use Braton series and Karak's that were running amok for so long, You've also got to take into consideration P2P and the rampant abuse of lag by many players to get kills. I'm not saying this is a 100% all the time thing, but lately most of the lobbies I get in to, I either have a poor connection to the host, or the host is pretty meh, and I wind up seeing all sorts of whacky teleporting tennos going on, or the occasional melee spammer that managed to kill me even though I was clearly out of range of them. 

 

That's why I'm basically capped out with nothing to buy from Tenshin at all again (not bragging, just stating, so don't even...), waiting in hopes that next year will start with some good conclave changes and fixes, because this year frankly ended sloppy, and it feels that even though a lot of good changes actually have come after all these months, there are still a lot of things that need to be worked on, and or implemented. There are still too many things that can be abused right now, and I don't know about some of you, but I don't often like to cheese. But it gets hard not to when half of the time you're opponent is doing exactly that. It's basically one of those never ending cycles, and hopefully next year we'll see a bit of a toning down with a proper balance pass. Even if it does feel impossible with all of these variables.

 

Anyway, sorry for the semi rant. Just don't try and joust/face tank a Dera user, despite it sounding wimpy, it does some good damage. Most of the projectile auto's fail once you get out of medium range, so I'm not sure what it is you're doing. But if you're having so much trouble with the Dera Vandal (of all things, and I know  you were on some sort of Haitus) just sounds like you haven't had enough practice fighting against it.  

[Nighttide77]

Let's make a comparison...  Karak Wraith vs Dera Vandal

 

 

With rough math (not counting IPS):

 

Dera V total damage: 21.7

Karak W total damage: 20.4

 

Dera V DPS: 244

Karak W DPS: 238

 

Dera is better once shields are down, Karak W is better at wrecking shields.

 

Accuracy isn't a bother because 28.6 on hitscan is a really low spread, and Dera V is projectile.

 

Although Dera V has no 'visual recoil', one might say Karak W's 'visual recoil' is also very low.

 

----------

 

Is Dera V really OP compared to its hitscan counterpart?  I don't think the math and handling say so.  However, if Dera V gets nerfed, Karak W will need a nerf, too, or it will become the next flavor of the week.  In fact, regular Karak would need a nerf, too.  Regular Karak has a rough DPS of 252.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Nighttide77

[Pythadragon]

Let's make a comparison...  Karak Wraith vs Dera Vandal

 

Accuracy isn't a bother because 28.6 on hitscan is a really low spread, and Dera V is projectile.

 

Although Dera V has no 'visual recoil', one might say Karak W's 'visual recoil' is also very low.

 

Ignore all arsenal ui accuracy numbers. They are 100% meaningless.

 

Karak wraith accuracy is horrible. Dera is pinpoint both aimed and unaimed. Specific emphasis on the unaimed pinpoint accuracy while viewing the images below.

 

This is full auto, 60 rounds@30 meters aimed.

 

This is full auto, 60 rounds@30 meters unaimed. The gun barely keeps all the rounds on the box. This is almost as bad as gorgon aimed accuracy.

 

Commentary:

 

One thing that I have not seen mentioned, but I highly suspect, is that Dera projectiles have a very large hitbox. Much larger than the 'points' that hitscan guns have. This makes the Dera series unusually deadly at close range against a user with good aim (where projectile speed has almost 0 effect), much moreso than your average hitscan rifle with 'point' hitboxes on nonexistent projectiles.

 

Pinpoint unaimed accuracy on an auto weapon at close range is very powerful, as not using ADS allows you to use many more mobility options while maintaining better consistent damage due to lack of spread provided your aim is good enough. This is true even with the projectiles of the Dera series, especially in the close range situation as mentioned above.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Pythadragon]

I'm fairly certain the Dera/Vandal have the same projectile speed. It's the magazine size that makes the Vandal better than the base. 

 

The wiki lists them as the same projectile speed.

 

It is most certainly wrong. Just did a side by side test@30 meters. Dera Vandal projectiles are significantly faster. Perhaps on the order of approximately 2x faster.

 

THAT is what makes it powerful despite having the same DPS as normal Dera. Remember that the flight speed mod also multiplies this advantage even further.

 

The projectile speed reaches a point where the disadvantage of projectiles is lost in close-mid range fights vs most players while maintaining advantage of projectile guns having large hitboxes vs 'no hitbox/point hitboxes' of hitscan weapons.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

Would you mind checking the Karak, too, then? I was just running it and was hitting every shot at what seemed to be beyond 30m...and Karak has the same accuracy as Wraith last time I checked... If 28.6 accuracy is as bad as you seem to make it, then I should not be able to almost counter-snipe with the Braton Prime, nor hit a target beyond 50m with consecutive shots in just a 30-round magazine.

I just re-built the Dera...didn't have time to mess with it, but it would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison on video. Would probably be able to use that info to update the wiki.

[Pythadragon]

Would you mind checking the Karak, too, then? I was just running it and was hitting every shot at what seemed to be beyond 30m...and Karak has the same accuracy as Wraith last time I checked... If 28.6 accuracy is as bad as you seem to make it, then I should not be able to almost counter-snipe with the Braton Prime, nor hit a target beyond 50m with consecutive shots in just a 30-round magazine.

I just re-built the Dera...didn't have time to mess with it, but it would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison on video. Would probably be able to use that info to update the wiki.

 

Same deal. Accuracy is horrible. 

 

I highly suspect that accuracy numbers are hand inputted with little to no real connection to reality. Or they're calculating accuracy by some very abstract combination of spread + recoil + recovery rate if you have faith that there's a technical reason behind it. 

 

When the gun shoots at 12 rounds per second, you will often get the illusion of consistent consecutive hits. Likewise, at 12 rounds per second, you will still hit things due to volume of fire. What percentage of rounds hit their target is a different story.

 

30 rounds@30 meters aimed

 

30 rounds@30 meters unaimed *note the hit barely on target at the top of the box. The game has a limit on number of bullet decals it displays (approx only 20 are shown below). Rounds are barely contained within the box as is the case with the Wraith version.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[woah_dude]

dera vandal is pretty strong, id say one of the top tier weapons, but i would not call it "the strongest". If you really like nerfs or more of a mediocre type guns, u can give it a minor nerf, but if u nerf it too hard the gun would turn into S#&$ pretty fast. 

[Pythadragon]

Would you mind checking the Karak, too, then? I was just running it and was hitting every shot at what seemed to be beyond 30m...and Karak has the same accuracy as Wraith last time I checked... If 28.6 accuracy is as bad as you seem to make it, then I should not be able to almost counter-snipe with the Braton Prime, nor hit a target beyond 50m with consecutive shots in just a 30-round magazine.

I just re-built the Dera...didn't have time to mess with it, but it would be nice to have a side-by-side comparison on video. Would probably be able to use that info to update the wiki.

 

Figured I'd do a quick exercise. Here is a visual representation.

 

 

Number of hits per magazine can be modeled with a binomial distribution:

So for example, at a hit probability of 30%, you have approx. 55% chance of hitting at least 8 rounds in a 30 rounds magazine.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Nighttide77]

Guess the only way to double check accuracy, then, is to have someone standing still and video them getting struck by single shots, bursts, and full auto. Sorry, but I'm still skeptical.

If the values given on the arsenal are entirely deceptive, but are reflected from their PvE stats and those stats carry between PvE and PvP, then I shouldn't be able to hit a Grineer or Corpus with every shot in a Karak mag from 30m, much less other weapons with the same accuracy. However, if the stats for accuracy and stuff don't properly transition, then the only way to be sure is to test it in PvP on a 'human' target.

Projectiles can show the actual spread due to their stated accuracies, right? If there's a projectile weapon with a 28.6 accuracy, it would show the approximate grouping expected with a hitscan, right?

If we throw out the idea that arsenal stats have any accurate portrayal of the weapons, then every call for nerfing or buffing is invalid. There would be no solid evidence from the players' side to show anything actually needs changing.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Nighttide77

[Pythadragon]

 

Guess the only way to double check accuracy, then, is to have someone standing still and video them getting struck by single shots, bursts, and full auto. Sorry, but I'm still skeptical.

If the values given on the arsenal are entirely deceptive, but are reflected from their PvE stats and those stats carry between PvE and PvP, then I shouldn't be able to hit a Grineer or Corpus with every shot in a Karak mag from 30m, much less other weapons with the same accuracy. However, if the stats for accuracy and stuff don't properly transition, then the only way to be sure is to test it in PvP on a 'human' target.

Projectiles can show the actual spread due to their stated accuracies, right? If there's a projectile weapon with a 28.6 accuracy, it would show the approximate grouping expected with a hitscan, right?

If we throw out the idea that arsenal stats have any accurate portrayal of the weapons, then every call for nerfing or buffing is invalid. There would be no solid evidence from the players' side to show anything actually needs changing.

 

 

Are you actually able to do this? Or is pve multishot + overpowered weapons giving you the illusion of 'accuracy' because 99% of enemies die in only one to just a few bullets on a weapon that shoots 12+ rounds per second (+ multishot!). Or that most pve engagements are at extremely close range in the first place.

 

Shooting a weapon against a wall doesn't really lie. I hope. I am 99% sure that weapon accuracy behavior in pvp and pve is identical.

 

But first, it sounds like you don't believe that weapons in pve are as inaccurate as the demonstrations above actually show.

 

EDIT in response to edit

I'm only referring to arsenal accuracy stats being meaningless. Not reload/damage/ROF ect.

 

You can get solid evidence. Here's an example: The humble furis at only 15.4 accuracy. While aimed, is more accurate than ALL automatic weapons in the game, minus the pink elephant called the Dera series@100 accuracy due to have zero spread at all. Hopefully this really shows the meaninglessness of the arsenal accuracy stat.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557517-furis-is-more-accurate-than-sybaris-all-automatic-primaries/

 

This thread uses the anti recoil mods. I have compared it to all auto rifles in the game, also with anti recoil mod.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Nighttide77]

Are you actually able to do this? Or is pve multishot + overpowered weapons giving you the illusion of 'accuracy' because 99% of enemies die in only one to just a few bullets on a weapon that shoots 12+ rounds per second (+ multishot!).

Shooting a weapon against a wall doesn't really lie. I hope.

99% sure that weapon accuracy behavior in pvp and pve is identical.

But first, it sounds like you don't believe that weapons in pve are as inaccurate as the demonstrations above actually show.

It would be real easy to do in the Simulacrum. I'll have to give it a whirl. Thing is, too, that weapons like the Latron have a 28.6 accuracy, but it's almost a sniping weapon.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. However, from all the fighting I have done, I would expect myself to be reloading way more often, hitting way fewer shots, and even hitting opponents that aren't anywhere near my crosshair, whether it's PvE or PvP. PvE targets are enormously easier targets than PvP targets.

I would imagine bullet holes on a wall should be accurate portrayals, but...something just seems off. When I was kinda 'counter sniping' with my Karak against this newbie standing on a platform in the Grineer Ceres PvP tile, I should have emptied out my magazine trying to hit them and get them to run, but I don't recall using that much of my magazine. It's not like the Karak has enough reserve ammo for me to be okay with spraying bullets to achieve my goal.

[Pythadragon]

It would be real easy to do in the Simulacrum. I'll have to give it a whirl. Thing is, too, that weapons like the Latron have a 28.6 accuracy, but it's almost a sniping weapon.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. However, from all the fighting I have done, I would expect myself to be reloading way more often, hitting way fewer shots, and even hitting opponents that aren't anywhere near my crosshair, whether it's PvE or PvP. PvE targets are enormously easier targets than PvP targets.

I would imagine bullet holes on a wall should be accurate portrayals, but...something just seems off. When I was kinda 'counter sniping' with my Karak against this newbie standing on a platform in the Grineer Ceres PvP tile, I should have emptied out my magazine trying to hit them and get them to run, but I don't recall using that much of my magazine. It's not like the Karak has enough reserve ammo for me to be okay with spraying bullets to achieve my goal.

 

Another good example of arsenal ui being meaningless.

Latron/Prime is actually 100% pinpoint accurate. Same as the Dera. But with recoil added so that followup shots are harder (shots still pinpoint on the crosshair).

 

10 shots@30 meters, aimed. Wait between shots (ignoring recoil). One hole

 

See more reference images here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/556595-please-fix-the-accuracy-of-the-grinlok-and-sybaris/

 

Try recording your gameplay footage sometime. I think you'd be surprised on a rewatch as to what's actually going on.

 

PS.

We're playing edit the edit. Check my previous post in response to edits on your previous post.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Nighttide77]

Try recording your gameplay footage sometime. I think you'd be surprised on a rewatch as to what's actually going on.

I'll have to. Probably something I should have been doing. Hopefully I am surprised, and then I'll end up choosing my loadouts much differently.