Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Design One (very simple): - No bonuses, mods do the talking. Put points where you want. Each line could be longer, just a simple proof of concept. - Design Two: Reworked idea base on Allerion's design. - Blue circle = mod slot. Taking Allerion's idea and applying it to a slightly simpler design. The idea of bonuses that Allerion suggested is applied here, but only upon maxing each line. This gives incentive to max each line, and gives weight to your decision to choose which route to take and varierty bewteen each choice. As the bonus in each line reflects the attribute or power, the pay off of each bonus is in keeping with investment of each point. No point would feel wasted. Mod slots available every 4 skill points in each line. Maximum you can acheive is 10. - Bonuses You receive the bonus when you activate the final mod slot in each attribute line. Each attribute line costs 12 skill points to max. Each power line costs 4. Max the health tree for a health regen bonus Max the shield tree for a faster shield regen Max the power tree for a power regen bonus You receive the bonus when you activate the final mod slot in each power line. These could repeat for certain frames as certain themes overlap slightly. Example Ash: Max Shuriken - Bonus to scoped weapon accuracy Max Smoke Screen - Bonus to stealth while crouched Max Teleport - Bonus to sprint speed Max Blade Storm - Bonus to melee damage Example Excalibur: Max Slash Dash - Bonus to melee damage Max Super Jump - Bonus to standard jump height Max Radial Blind - Slight chance to stagger enemies on melee Max Radial Javelin - Increased Aoe of slam attack Example Loki: Max Decoy - Decreased threat (lower chance for enemies to target player) Max Invisibility - Bonus to stealth while crouched Max Switch Telport - Bonus to sprint speed Max Radial Disarm - Chance to disarm enemy with melee attack Example Rhino: Max Charge - Bonus to charged melee damage Max Iron Skin - Bonus to armour Max Radial Blast - Add stagger to all slam attacks Max Stomp - Add stasis effect chance to all slam attacks And so on. - Design Three, mix of the above: - Each Red node is a bonus that requires a skill point to activate. Health - Health regen Shields - Shield recharge Power - Power regen The bonuses for the powers would be individual for each frame, as proposed in design 2. Taking 10 mods wouldn't be the obvious choice as you have 8 bonuses to choose from too. The numbers of nodes could be tweaked to suit. Edited January 31, 2013 by Zakalwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BossEpoch Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) I like this idea quite a bit, especially considering I had to upgrade my Ash's teleport (Which I didn't want at all) to upgrade Shuriken. On a different note, shouldn't this be in Gameplay Feedback? Edited January 30, 2013 by Monorodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricaSix Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I quite miss the old one, but if they really want to force us into specialising and thus sacrificing some stuff, it better be done properly then, just as you suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mibu Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 you COULD do something like that, but then the tree would no longer be unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 It would be more unique as you wouldn't be forced to take superfluous powers and attributes to get to the ones you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGeddon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Forgive the crude MS paint mock up, but you'll get the idea. I don't think forcing us to make a certain choice just so we can get to the option we want is a good idea. Anyway, something like this: This simplifies things quite a bit. I am against that. Part of the idea behind the current skill trees is that the previous nodes influence the worth of later nodes(Having to go through 2 power max nodes to get to a mod slot makes that mod slot worth less than one with 1 health and 1 shield node in front of it, unless you have invested into multiple upgrades of your powers). While it isn't so easy to get into, it definitely is interesting. Edited January 30, 2013 by KGeddon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 This simplifies things quite a bit. I am against that. Part of the idea behind the current skill trees is that the previous nodes influence the worth of later nodes(Having to go through 2 power max nodes to get to a mod slot makes that mod slot worth less than one with 1 health and 1 shield node in front of it, unless you have invested into multiple upgrades of your powers). While it isn't so easy to get into, it definitely is interesting. How is it interesting forcing you to take powers you don't want? It completely limits how you want to build your character. This proposal is simple, but it offers the most creativity. It's absolute freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGeddon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 How is it interesting forcing you to take powers you don't want? It completely limits how you want to build your character. This proposal is simple, but it offers the most creativity. It's absolute freedom. It offers no creativity. It's just allocating stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 It offers no creativity. It's just allocating stats. It offers a LOT more creativity than we have right now. Shall I make a character with all powers max, and high power, with little defense? Or low power, but tonnes of health and shields and mods and only one power maxed? Or an all rounder? Etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 This simplifies things quite a bit. I am against that. Part of the idea behind the current skill trees is that the previous nodes influence the worth of later nodes(Having to go through 2 power max nodes to get to a mod slot makes that mod slot worth less than one with 1 health and 1 shield node in front of it, unless you have invested into multiple upgrades of your powers). While it isn't so easy to get into, it definitely is interesting. This, i like the current spec situation. They added new mod slots, but I don't have enough to fill all of them. That makes consider the spots next to the mods as well. Also, the mods you may have for health and shield boosts may not benefit you more than the actual talents for them. ergo, a mod that gives less than 50 hp isn't actually worth picking up a mod slot for. same with shield boosts. This allows for a much more thought provoking customization, based on the quality and availability of your mods. That doesn't even take into acount what abilities you want to use. If you're grinding boss fights for drops, maybe you'd rather not max out your 4th ability, since that focuses more on wave clear. OP's suggestion, although simple and practical, doesn't achieve the same thought-provoking depth that the current system give you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 This, i like the current spec situation. They added new mod slots, but I don't have enough to fill all of them. That makes consider the spots next to the mods as well. Also, the mods you may have for health and shield boosts may not benefit you more than the actual talents for them. ergo, a mod that gives less than 50 hp isn't actually worth picking up a mod slot for. same with shield boosts. This allows for a much more thought provoking customization, based on the quality and availability of your mods. That doesn't even take into acount what abilities you want to use. If you're grinding boss fights for drops, maybe you'd rather not max out your 4th ability, since that focuses more on wave clear. OP's suggestion, although simple and practical, doesn't achieve the same thought-provoking depth that the current system give you. There is no "thought provking depth"... There's just frustrating limition. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGeddon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It offers a LOT more creativity than we have right now. Shall I make a character with all powers max, and high power, with little defense? Or low power, but tonnes of health and shields and mods and only one power maxed? Or an all rounder? Etc... There is no "thought provking depth"... There's just frustrating limition. :/ Work towards understanding. Simplfication =/= freedom. It's actually more restrictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricaSix Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Work towards understanding. Simplfication =/= freedom. It's actually more restrictive. I understand the new system is restrictive "for the sake of having unique builds", but how is this suggestion more restrictive? Care to explain? The only downside I see is the loss of "style" that the skilltree once had. It was quite something but now it's just inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreshJB2 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 How is it interesting forcing you to take powers you don't want? It completely limits how you want to build your character. This proposal is simple, but it offers the most creativity. It's absolute freedom. agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGeddon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) I understand the new system is restrictive "for the sake of having unique builds", but how is this suggestion more restrictive? Care to explain? The only downside I see is the loss of "style" that the skilltree once had. It was quite something but now it's just inconvenient. It removes considerations of relative worth. Under the skill trees, a mod slot is partially defined by the steps leading to it(both in the desirability of those nodes and the number of intermediate steps that use your limited resource of 30 upgrades). Under this suggestion, a mod slot is a mod slot is a mod slot. So that mod slot trait will ALWAYS be maxed. So instead of choices of varying worth, there is a "must buy". Must is not a choice. Edited January 30, 2013 by KGeddon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricaSix Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It removes considerations of relative worth. Under the skill trees, a mod slot is partially defined by the steps leading to it(both in the desirability of those nodes and the number of intermediate steps that use your limited resource of 30 upgrades). Under this suggestion, a mod slot is a mod slot is a mod slot. So that mod slot trait will ALWAYS be maxed. So instead of choices of varying worth, there is a "must buy". Must is not a choice. The main point is, it will be up to you to decide whether you like it or not, despite the overwhelming temptation to spend all your upgrades on mod slots. That's "freedom" by definition. Besides it's not at all that different from what the new system will soon turn into with the "best" volt builds, rhino builds, mag builds and such. That's no different than this if you know what you're doing. The only difference is how user-friendly it will become if they revamp the skilltree. It's unnecessarily overcomplicated now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarudizer Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Man,this is a simple as simple can get, I don't even have words to describe just how... It's brilliant! The current system is just a mess, it really is. Makes me wonder if I have to break out my calculator or something whenever I'm going to choose a skill point. This would make things simple, but you know what? Sometimes less IS more. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGeddon Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The main point is, it will be up to you to decide whether you like it or not, despite the overwhelming temptation to spend all your upgrades on mod slots. That's "freedom" by definition. Besides it's not at all that different from what the new system will soon turn into with the "best" volt builds, rhino builds, mag builds and such. That's no different than this if you know what you're doing. The only difference is how user-friendly it will become if they revamp the skilltree. It's unnecessarily overcomplicated now. That my friend, is the illusion of choice. If a store is selling an item for 10 dollars, and another is selling it for 15, which do you buy from? This is the proposed system. Now add in gas prices/distance. Maybe you want something else from one store. Maybe you get a 5 dollar gift certificate for purchasing at the 15 dollar price. These are choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushcore Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 either that or u can just let WFs reach rank 45 and have all of the skill tree... that works for me.. dont like tough choices just grab it all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricaSix Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 That my friend, is the illusion of choice. If a store is selling an item for 10 dollars, and another is selling it for 15, which do you buy from? This is the proposed system. Now add in gas prices/distance. Maybe you want something else from one store. Maybe you get a 5 dollar gift certificate for purchasing at the 15 dollar price. That's actually how I exactly felt about the new system, the illusion of choice. In my opinion, the new skilltree is nothing more than a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinderain Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Why do we need to have our thoughts provoked and mind enlightened in regards to a skill tree? How did some of you even interpret it in that way in the first place? I dislike having to upgrade Slash Dash more than once to get to one skill. Now I get to put up with flying 5 miles past my targets. Edited January 30, 2013 by FatalX7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 KG, you're working on the assumption that everyone will always be maxing the mod slots. As you level, and you don't have a massive collection of great mods, it's not a clear cut choice. And even when you manage to find enough mods that maxing the mod slots will be an obvious choice, the /rest/ of the slots will be open for absolute freedom of choice. This opttion offers absolute choice, it's not restrictive in any way, the current system is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ced23Ric Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The system in OP reminds me off Faster Than Light, where a similar system was in place. You didn't have enough power to allocate max to all systems, but you could focus based on your situation. I quite liked that. It was simple, yet tactical. +1 (On a side note, it would probably shut up a lot of people complaining, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavman Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 There is no "thought provking depth"... There's just frustrating limition. :/ You see it as limitation because we have all been used to having every single skill slot filled. If this was implemented from the start, the idea of limitation wouldn't even be present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricaSix Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 You see it as limitation because we have all been used to having every single skill slot filled. If this was implemented from the start, the idea of limitation wouldn't even be present. That would've been true if the new upgrades were actually added on top of what we've had before. It seems more like a total revamp to me, messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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