[UPDATED] - Three ideas for new skill trees.

[Cavman]

Why do we need to have our thoughts provoked and mind enlightened in regards to a skill tree? How did some of you even interpret it in that way in the first place?

I dislike having to upgrade Slash Dash more than once to get to one skill. Now I get to put up with flying 5 miles past my targets.

Right now, different mod slots have different "weights" to them. A mod slot that is unhindered to you is the most ideal situation, but that doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes you have to pass two or three different stats in order to get to one. Some mod slots are simply too far for you to even reach within a given build. This is where the depth comes in. Build your talents around which skills you want. Then, you can decide which mod slots to pursue based on what stats you want. If you want to use your powers a lot more, the mod slot that is behind two power max slots is more valuable to you than the one behind the one health slot. If you want to be all up in the enemy's face, you're going to need some pretty hefty shields. The mod slot near the three shield slots is now your goal.

Also, having to rank abilities you otherwise wouldnt want is an issue with the precise layout of the current talent grid, and can be fixed by putting skills in better spots. I'd rather them work towards having an improved version of the current skill tree, rather than having OP's skill tree.

[KGeddon]

KG, you're working on the assumption that everyone will always be maxing the mod slots.

As you level, and you don't have a massive collection of great mods, it's not a clear cut choice.

And even when you manage to find enough mods that maxing the mod slots will be an obvious choice, the /rest/ of the slots will be open for absolute freedom of choice.

This opttion offers absolute choice, it's not restrictive in any way, the current system is.

You are working off the assumption that removal of consequences somehow improves the quality of your choices. That is the illusion of choice.

There is some tweaking that needs to be done. Some of the trees are rather lopsided, offering fixed benefits + powers on one side, and a crapton of mod slots on the other. As well, powers should be just past a junction, probably with mod slots just behind. The fixed benefits should be scattered about to prevent people from "gimping" themselves via choices, but also preventing "min/max" tactics. Currently, the problem is mostly a design issue of the trees(the 5 high/11 wide matrix seems to be somewhat unwieldy).

I do agree that placing powers that you may not want on the main path is a removal of A choice, and I actually dislike that certain powers that do not fit my playstyle at all are sometimes pushed too hard(shock for the Volt warframe as an example. You ARE forced to take three levels to get into the right side of the tree.)

However, simplifying this system to become cherry picking would be unwise. There is no choice involved in cherries.

Edited January 30, 2013 by KGeddon

[Cavman]

This opttion offers absolute choice, it's not restrictive in any way, the current system is.

This is true, but that doesn't make either system better than the other. The current system allows much more creativity with your stat points, but is actively trying to restrict you (that's where the creativity comes in :P). The OP's system isn't as restrictive (you still can't max everything, so it does restrict you), but it's terribly bland. Both systems can offer absolute choice, the current one just needs a bit of tweaking to get there.

The simplicity of OP's system is the best part of it. It's what makes it seem so perfect compared to the current system. The current system definitely needs tweaking. For example, you shouldn't be forced into spending points to strengthen abilities, just to get to another ability. That limits customization. But if that is fixed, I would choose it instantly over OP's

Also, OP's system is almost exactly the same as the mass effect skill system. The restriction it puts on you can't be countered by creativity, unlike the current system in warframe.

[Zakalwe]

You are working off the assumption that removal of consequences somehow improves the quality of your choices. That is the illusion of choice.

There is no choice involved in cherries.

So, your argument is that, because peopel will max the mod sltos every time, they have an illusion of choice?

As I said, while you level you might not have mods, so as before you do this will offer much mroe freedom.

And so what if you max the mod tree every time? The rest is open to choice. Abosolute choice. Absolute freedom for the remaining points.

There's no illusion there at all.

[NexiKuro]

Also, the mods you may have for health and shield boosts may not benefit you more than the actual talents for them. ergo, a mod that gives less than 50 hp isn't actually worth picking up a mod slot for. same with shield boosts. This allows for a much more thought provoking customization, based on the quality and availability of your mods.

This just makes it a matter of time, afaik high level health/shield mods can easily drop in exces of what those nodes offer.

The current system is about maxing mods or abilities, all the other nodes are of secondary importance at best. Not to mention every stat is mixed in everywhere, so you never have full control over which route you want a certain frame to take.

Incredibly arbitrary system is incredibly arbitrary, I'd rather have a more straightforward system that offers more direct controll rather than the current cluttered one.

That's actually how I exactly felt about the new system, the illusion of choice. In my opinion, the new skilltree is nothing more than a nerf.

it's a slight buff to ember tbh, since she can now have 2 more mod slots without sacrificing anything.

[NexiKuro]

So, your argument is that, because peopel will max the mod sltos every time, they have an illusion of choice?

As I said, while you level you might not have mods, so as before you do this will offer much mroe freedom.

And so what if you max the mod tree every time? The rest is open to choice. Abosolute choice. Absolute freedom for the remaining points.

There's no illusion there at all.

pretty sure the current tree doesn't allow more than 7-8 options/routes being open at any time.

[KGeddon]

So, your argument is that, because peopel will max the mod sltos every time, they have an illusion of choice?

As I said, while you level you might not have mods, so as before you do this will offer much mroe freedom.

And so what if you max the mod tree every time? The rest is open to choice. Abosolute choice. Absolute freedom for the remaining points.

There's no illusion there at all.

No. The illusion is that if you attach fixed value to "choices", then people only pick one choice("It's the best!!!"). There is no counterplay in the scheme you propose, because you have isolated each point expenditure to a single attribute. This is a recipe for disaster.

[KGeddon]

pretty sure the current tree doesn't allow more than 7-8 options/routes being open at any time.

The tree system could probably benefit from more height. It's currently long and narrow, which limits the total choices/effects of choices.

[Zakalwe]

No. The illusion is that if you attach fixed value to "choices", then people only pick one choice("It's the best!!!"). There is no counterplay in the scheme you propose, because you have isolated each point expenditure to a single attribute. This is a recipe for disaster.

You don't need counterplay when you have more choice.

This simpler system would allow such builds as:

All powers active, high power, low level mods, low defense?

Two powers active, High health, mid power and shields, full mods?

One Power active, high health and shields, low power, mid level mods?

All Powers, MId Power, Low Defense, All Mods.

Etc..

This is pretty simple stuff. There's no "best". It's freedom of preference.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Cinderain]

Right now, different mod slots have different "weights" to them. A mod slot that is unhindered to you is the most ideal situation, but that doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes you have to pass two or three different stats in order to get to one. Some mod slots are simply too far for you to even reach within a given build. This is where the depth comes in. Build your talents around which skills you want. Then, you can decide which mod slots to pursue based on what stats you want. If you want to use your powers a lot more, the mod slot that is behind two power max slots is more valuable to you than the one behind the one health slot. If you want to be all up in the enemy's face, you're going to need some pretty hefty shields. The mod slot near the three shield slots is now your goal.

Also, having to rank abilities you otherwise wouldnt want is an issue with the precise layout of the current talent grid, and can be fixed by putting skills in better spots. I'd rather them work towards having an improved version of the current skill tree, rather than having OP's skill tree.

What a waste.

[KGeddon]

You don't need counterplay when you have more choice.

This simpler system would allow such builds as:

All powers active, high power, low level mods, low defense?

Two powers active, High health, mid power and shields, full mods?

One Power active, high health and shields, low power, mid level mods?

All Powers, MId Power, Low Defense, All Mods.

Etc..

This is pretty simple stuff. There's no "best". It's freedom of preference.

I guess I should stop posting and simply let you have your way. The min/max'er in me says I will destroy everything under your system.

[Cavman]

A fair point I have to make is that OP's system doesn't take into account how powerful certain abilities are. I don't think it would be beneficial to be able to grab overload at level 1. Same goes for mod slots. There's a reason why mod slots are located distances away from each other. Being able to throw all your points into mod slots gives you access to game breaking power.

Implementation of OP's system would require rebalancing a lot of factors for something so simple and bland.

[Paprika]

I'm all for the new skill tree. The fact that it forces you to upgrade a certain power to reach another power adds... consequence. The thing the makes choice and freedom all the more meaningful is consequence.

EDIT: Looking back, I understand the argument you're making here, and I personally wouldn't mind if they switch to your system. I like the new skill tree, but won't mind the Original Poster's Suggestion.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Paprika

[Zakalwe]

The min/max'er in me says I will destroy everything under your system.

Meaning what, exactly?

Implementation of OP's system would require rebalancing a lot of factors for something so simple and bland.

It's still bland as it is right now, it's just a more complex kind of bland. And they should balance the powers anyway, every power should scale well and be attractive to take.

[Ced23Ric]

Meaning what, exactly?

That he will calculate and assess the most potent use of his upgrade points and will not ever bother putting a single point in things that do not do one thing: kill faster. It will bring the advent of "the one build", the maximized kill machine.

[Kirbuncle]

That he will calculate and assess the most potent use of his upgrade points and will not ever bother putting a single point in things that do not do one thing: kill faster. It will bring the advent of "the one build", the maximized kill machine.

Also known as nofunallowed.jpg.

[Cavman]

It's still bland as it is right now, it's just a more complex kind of bland. And they should balance the powers anyway, every power should scale well and be attractive to take.

the complexity is what makes it interesting....

and the powers are balanced. They are balanced around the current skill system. If OP's system were put into effect, they would have to RE-balance the skills.

[Zakalwe]

the complexity is what makes it interesting....

Complexity doesn't equal interesting by default. It's a jumbled mess, imo, and the the placement seems arbitrary or, at best, hapazhard.

and the powers are balanced. They are balanced around the current skill system. If OP's system were put into effect, they would have to RE-balance the skills

The powers are far from balanced. They need to be balanced in relation to one another, and when they are they'll work for any kind of skill tree.

That he will calculate and assess the most potent use of his upgrade points and will not ever bother putting a single point in things that do not do one thing: kill faster. It will bring the advent of "the one build", the maximized kill machine.

Right, but you can't with Warframe as the min/max is all based on what mods you're lucky enough to have found.

The rest is just preference based on which powers you like and if you prefer more health, shields, or energy... there's no general optimum build as not everyone can emulate the same mods.

-

Let's assume players will always want to maximise mods as that's where the real power lies, the rest is where the player's choice comes in. There's no "best" when we consider energy, health, and shields, and hopefully there won't be when they balance the powers, too.

There's plenty of choice to be had, iot's not an illusion at all.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Cavman]

complexity doesnt' equal interesting by default. It's a jumbled mess, imo, and the the placement seems arbitrary or, at best, hapazhard.

What's interesting to you might not be interesting to someone else, and vice versa. In this situation, we're talking about a talent tree. There is very little you can do to a talent tree to make it interesting. Someone earlier on gave a good example about what exactly makes it interesting. It has consequenses.

Personally, I'm really bored of seeing such simple talent trees. OP's suggestion has been used in so many games already. OP's system might have more freedom, but it feels like you're just dropping in talent points. The current talent tree feels like you're making choices.

The powers are far from balanced. They need to be balanced in relation to one another, and when they are they'l lwork for any kind of skill tree.

Balanced in relation to... their own warframe powers? Or the powers of the other warframes? Your 4th power is supposed to be much stronger than the other three. At least, that's what DE seems to want. Why should they balance the 4 powers around themselves? The only reason they would do that is for OP's skill systemCurrently, your most powerful ability is the last one you get, and that makes sense.

[Foxbyte]

While I kind of want the skill page to look like this, I would just pump *everything* into mods. They're ridiculously powerful compared to some other points, like Health or Shields especially.

[Judgebanks]

As an excalibur I absolutely hate not having Radial Blind and being forced into Radial Javelin, all because I wanted max mod slots so I didn't die to from a single grenade.

[Xanoth]

I agree with OP and others, perhaps there is room for a comprimse but I feel the current system while it allows for specialisation, a lot of the choice and options are an illusion at best.

Forcing players to take abilities they don't want and won't use, while trying to offer specialisation towards a particular style of play a player wants for a warframe is (imo) a bad choice.

I think there is room for a lot more scope with this, but that the current direction is going slightly the wrong way but with the right intentions. Just take a morning to ask what you actually want to give players, how they will likely use it and why, and what's the best way to give them that whithin the confinds of the game you want to make.

Even the illusion of choice can be a good thing, but if we're forced to take something we don't want, the illusion is shattered and we're well aware that the choices we really have are a lot more limited and limiting than it would first appear.

[Kittygoesmeow]

@topic

how about a mass effect style skill system where mod slots are locked to certain levels of shield/health/energy?

[KGeddon]

@topic

how about a mass effect style skill system where mod slots are locked to certain levels of shield/health/energy?

It would be an interesting idea, allowing more balance between nodes and mod slots, but would seriously impact late game activities. Mods are the "ph4t l3wt" as it stands now.

[Kittygoesmeow]

It would be an interesting idea, allowing more balance between nodes and mod slots, but would seriously impact late game activities. Mods are the "ph4t l3wt" as it stands now.

mods should be superficial - the decoration on the cake as it were. the decorations shouldnt be the tastiest thing ON the cake.

but the mass efect style skill system is a great compromise between simplicity and complexity. it still allows you to have a great deal of freedom, but also requires you to plan ahead because some skills would be locked to other skills.

IMHO skills, except the first one, should be locked to certain elvels of energy capacity. energy capacity should be locked to certain levels of shield capacity, and shield capacity should be locked to certain levels of health.

mods would be locked to all three passives

Edited January 31, 2013 by Kittygoesmeow