Orokin Catalysts/Reactors NEED to Change: A letter to the Game Devs

[Blatantfool]

LoL is the single most played game in existence.

Not even close.

Also the rest of your post kinda missed her point a bit.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool

[KGeddon]

because catalyst's and recators are needed in progressing yes you can play the game up to X but you'll never be as good as person Y with them and you'll have issues playing in Z places.

Which is why supercharge was changed to catalyst/reactors. But people now want them more often, and are offended that there is any need to buy plat.

[PlusEighteen]

People complaining about upgrades forget that you can still apply better mods to your gear even if you haven't unlocked it

Yes, you're going to deal less damage than someone with an unlocked weapon at the same mod level, but if you slot in 3 blue mods you're going to roll the face of most enemies

I don't feel like burning 20 plat on my cronus at 17, but I still use it from time to time and slot in better mods to make it still competitive

The game is easy enough as it is (and if the 50 plat we start with stays with the game forever that would be amazing, cause I probably would have quit once I hit 20 or so with how hard it is to get new frames)

If anything needs to change it's the price of new frames, especially considering we only start with 2 slots

[Blatantfool]

Which is why supercharge was changed to catalyst/reactors. But people now want them more often, and are offended that there is any need to buy plat.

Pretending this is what the argument is actually about is really juvenile. The reasons people don't like the Orokin items are much more numerous and much more reasonable then "I hate buying Plat."

Regardless of my argument on here I remain extremely tempted to buy Platinum for the Ember Helmet and some slots for new gear. To me those purchases are great. Buying from DE has never been my problem and I doubt it is really a problem for anyone else.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool

[KGeddon]

LoL is the single most played game in existence. I get that you need to be careful in your posts, but saying you don't have the data to back up how successful LoL is is just silly. Now, there is definitely going to be a big difference in playerbases when compared to your game, but I feel that has little to do with what F2P model you choose to use.

Put it this way. If you think your game isn't popular enough to pull off a model similar to LoL's, then you should just stick a $20 price tag on it and get your money that way. The alternative is the current model (or any variation of walling players off from required game content), which in my opinion is a misleading and deceptive model. The only reason to call your game free-to-play, and then charge for progress, is to deceive. Hopefully, whatever alterations your team has in mind can change that.

DeNA is more valuable, has higher gross earnings, and higher profit margins than Riot.

[Cavman]

Not even close.

Also the rest of your post kinda missed her point a bit.

And your source is what, exactly? I have several that quote the numbers of players logging in per month to be double that of WoW subscribers. The hours put into LoL for the past 3 years almost beat out the hours put into Halo since 2004.

[Kyuzo]

Which is why supercharge was changed to catalyst/reactors. But people now want them more often, and are offended that there is any need to buy plat.

most of us want a better way to get them. don't mistake that for "we want them easy in little to no time" i've posted idea's of what they could do.

[PlusEighteen]

words words words

You aren't secretly Batabii are you

[Blatantfool]

People complaining about upgrades forget that you can still apply better mods to your gear even if you haven't unlocked it

Yes, you're going to deal less damage than someone with an unlocked weapon at the same mod level, but if you slot in 3 blue mods you're going to roll the face of most enemies

I don't feel like burning 20 plat on my cronus at 17, but I still use it from time to time and slot in better mods to make it still competitive

The game is easy enough as it is (and if the 50 plat we start with stays with the game forever that would be amazing, cause I probably would have quit once I hit 20 or so with how hard it is to get new frames)

If anything needs to change it's the price of new frames, especially considering we only start with 2 slots

Which is stronger.

An Ember with 3 Mods slots

Or

an Ember with 10 Mod slots?

The Orokin items aren't just a small upgrade.

Also, weapons like the Cronus fall off after a while. I doubt you are facerolling the higher level areas without significant help, likely from people with boosted items.

That said, I understand your point. In a sense, you are right. You CAN squeeze some extra power out of a non-boosted item. But I don't think it even scratches the surface when you consider how much stronger boosted items really are.

[Cavman]

DeNA is more valuable, has higher gross earnings, and higher profit margins than Riot.

And still pales in comparison to LoL's playerbase. Maybe business is more than just making money?

[Blatantfool]

And your source is what, exactly? I have several that quote the numbers of players logging in per month to be double that of WoW subscribers. The hours put into LoL for the past 3 years almost beat out the hours put into Halo since 2004.

I'm more interested in you posting your source.

I'm betting it is some site like Kotaku. I'm not gonna deny the size and success of that game, but 'Most played game ever' is a huge line to try to deliver without some real proof man.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Cavman]

I'm more interested in you posting your source.

I'm betting it is some site like Kotaku. I'm not gonna deny the size and success of that game, but 'Most played game ever' is a huge line to try to deliver without some real proof man.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57531578-1/league-of-legends-the-worlds-most-played-video-game/

http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/24/league-of-legends-the-most-played-pc-game-in-the-world-runs-on-the-same-open-hardware-as-facebook/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2012/10/12/league-of-legends-bigger-than-wow-more-daily-players-than-call-of-duty/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2012/07/11/riot-games-league-of-legends-officially-becomes-most-played-pc-game-in-the-world/

http://www.gamespot.com/news/league-of-legends-most-played-pc-game-report-6386428

want me to keep going?

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jasonevangelho/files/2012/10/League-of-Legends-infographic.jpg

heres a nice infographic from one of those sources

Edited February 1, 2013 by Cavman

[Blatantfool]

http://news.cnet.com...yed-video-game/

http://techcrunch.co...re-as-facebook/

http://www.forbes.co...n-call-of-duty/

http://www.forbes.co...e-in-the-world/

http://www.gamespot....-report-6386428

want me to keep going?

Thank you. Good enough for me. Gotta admit. I was legitimately expecting Kotaku.

[KGeddon]

And still pales in comparison to LoL's playerbase. Maybe business is more than just making money?

700 million in the domestic Japanese market alone. I'm sure that's a player base of 3 or less people.

As well, free players are completely dependent on developers, who are completely dependent on paying players.

[Blatantfool]

700 million in the domestic Japanese market alone. I'm sure that's a player base of 3 or less people.

As well, free players are completely dependent on developers, who are completely dependent on paying players.

Not sure what you are getting at. League makes ridiculous money. Care to explain a little more?

Also, we really should be getting back on topic.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Gestalt]

We are in the 4 player co-op PvE world.

LoL is in the MOBA PvP world.

This cannot be overstated. Three cheers for Beccs.

Everytime we try to compare Warframe to a F2P game in a different genre, we need to keep that in mind. With different genres we get different player-base as well: player age, type of player, and all sorts of other demographic differences have to be taken into account.

[Cavman]

700 million in the domestic Japanese market alone. I'm sure that's a player base of 3 or less people.

As well, free players are completely dependent on developers, who are completely dependent on paying players.

After googling DeNA (I thought you were referring to the NA division of Digital Extremes), this comparison is foolish. You're comparing a single game to a company that's basically a monopoly. Also, if you look at mobage's consumer base (the gaming platform of the company), you're only looking at, from the source I found, 30 million users. LoL clocks in at 32 million.

[PlusEighteen]

Which is stronger.

An Ember with 3 Mods slots

Or

an Ember with 10 Mod slots?

Skill tree changes are pretty recent and I doubt they are the final design

And I'm mostly thinking of weapons, since frames are so hard to get relatively ( not so hard to get that I'd rather pay 25USD for a single character though )

[Cavman]

This cannot be overstated. Three cheers for Beccs.

Everytime we try to compare Warframe to a F2P game in a different genre, we need to keep that in mind. With different genres we get different player-base as well: player age, type of player, and all sorts of other demographic differences have to be taken into account.

I addressed this in one of my posts. This might explain why they choose not to use LoL's model, but it doesn't excuse them for using a deceptive one. If they want people to pay them money for their game, they should put a price tag on it.

[Blatantfool]

This cannot be overstated. Three cheers for Beccs.

Everytime we try to compare Warframe to a F2P game in a different genre, we need to keep that in mind. With different genres we get different player-base as well: player age, type of player, and all sorts of other demographic differences have to be taken into account.

This matters for gameplay implementation or features maybe, we aren't asking for DE to make Warframe a MOBA. It has little bearing on the cash shop what Genre a game is. You shouldn't try to retreat to this. It isn't really the case.

If there was an equivalent to Orokin items in LoL there would be an enormous outrage among the players, but that isn't even the point.

The angle Riot takes is simple. Focus on selling the player looks. Focus on selling the player time savers. Nothing else. If you don't ever touch the gameplay or progression people will feel better about it. You play to get better, you pay to look sexy doing it.

This doesn't change from one genre to another, even across pretty large genre leaps.

>TF2

>Firefall

>Path of Exile

>Warframe (They do this too. There is some focus on cosmetics. Orokin items are an outlier, not the norm.)

>LoL (But we've covered this one)

Would you argue Firefall and Path of Exile are similar? And yet they share a cash shop that wont get involved in gameplay directly. They let you play to get better and pay to be fabulous.

It WORKS. It is FAIR. Indesputabely so.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Blatantfool]

Skill tree changes are pretty recent and I doubt they are the final design

And I'm mostly thinking of weapons, since frames are so hard to get relatively ( not so hard to get that I'd rather pay 25USD for a single character though )

I figured that man. But still, the point stands. Even Melee weapons go from 3 to 6 (Or was it 7?) slots.

We discuss the problems of now in hopes that change happens for the better.

[KGeddon]

After googling DeNA (I thought you were referring to the NA division of Digital Extremes), this comparison is foolish. You're comparing a single game to a company that's basically a monopoly. Also, if you look at mobage's consumer base (the gaming platform of the company), you're only looking at, from the source I found, 30 million users. LoL clocks in at 32 million.

DeNA started as a game developer, and then started buying other companies. This is similar to what Tencent did to Riot. You can't use a small fish as an example of profitability. There is obviously a better way, otherwise Riot would have bought out Tencent. Here's a hint. If a company says how many users it has, but won't give out earnings, the profit per person is small.

F2P models have notoriously small profit per person ratios, and this only decreases with softer sales. People simply won't pay if they don't have to.

[aheed]

DeNA started as a game developer, and then started buying other companies. This is similar to what Tencent did to Riot. You can't use a small fish as an example of profitability. There is obviously a better way, otherwise Riot would have bought out Tencent. Here's a hint. If a company says how many users it has, but won't give out earnings, the profit per person is small.

F2P models have notoriously small profit per person ratios, and this only decreases with softer sales. People simply won't pay if they don't have to.

That is totally right. I won't pay if i don't have to, and i shouldn't have to. I will pay high dollar amounts optionally though, give me helmets give me skins give me added effects fancy flashy stuff and i will rain money on you.

The first thing im going to do when i get ember unlcocked is buy additional warframe slots and get the ember helm.

Edited February 1, 2013 by aheed

[Ced23Ric]

Feedback and changes to a business model are ... hard to do with a playerbase, one has to admit. As those with the money, we are usually inclinded to ask for more. On the other hand, it is true that optional payments are nicer than more or less forced payments. The supercharging is, in my opinion, as much a chore/hindrance as limited slots. Now I just shrugged and paid those, because I can. I literally do not feel the sting of it, I enjoy the game, whatever, have my money. AAA titles give me 15 hours (DIshonored, 12) if I am lucky, for US$50. Digital Extremes gave me 150 hours and keeps giving me more. Wicked. Seems like me paying US$200 (ish) is still cheaper than those AAA titles for the playtime*.

Nevertheless. I would prefer it a lot more if DE would do a couple of things.

• Equalize Platinum and real world money. US$10 = 100 Platinum. Odd conversions are carnie tricks for value obscursion and really grey area stuff. Shady, almost. It's certainly not consumer friendly to distort his perception of what he is paying when he spends the currency.
• Deal differently with slots. Unlocking slots with rank ups would be an idea, bypassable with cash. Also, stop it with odd payments for Revives and Weapon Slots. That is another carnie conning trick to sell more tickets. Don't do this because you see others do it. It's not smart business unless you like to label your customers suckers.
• Do away with the supercharge concept entirely or make the progress for F2Pers more realistic. Have them collect bits every mission, and after X missions (say, 50), they automatically get a Reactor/Catalyst. Cash bypasses for convenience. But having them hunt a carrot they have a hard time reaching is vicious.
• Get the cash shop cleaned up. Avatar packs need to be updated, Omni Ammo needs to go (no one buys it, metrics should back that up), helmets for Frost/Nyx/Excalibur are missing. Also, skins/texture packs. Broaden the colour palette - US$5 for a limited selection of pastel isn't cool.

The thing is, a happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a risk, and you know it. But if you are afraid at the wrong spot to put trust in your customer base, you will more than likely disgruntle them. I don't want you to be afraid to make even the cash shop awesome. Currently, it feels like you do, and I have a hunch that not the developers or community reps are the reasons, but marketing/controlling. Obviously, you cannot comment on that. Obviously, marketing/controlling won't read this. But I can try and hope and wish and dream.

* Borderlands 1/2 is kind of an exception there, that gave me 240 and 180 hours for US$ 60. Heh.

[Blatantfool]

I like Ced's post. A lot.

No seriously. Read that post.

Seriously it is good.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blatantfool