[soooo why does the braton prime have a max ammo pool of 375 again?]

1 hour ago, D.art said:

I dissagree with you. For me braton prime is the only one full auto assault rifle. Without slow moving projectiles, without long as hell reload, without ridiculous secondary fire type. Plain and simple.

And it's not only for me.

 

Just now, SFTT.Lightning said:

thank you.

While the design and production value of most of the weapons in this game is great, sometimes I just want to play with a plain old classic rifle.
The Braton (Prime) is the only moderately weapon to fulfill this criteria, and it makes me sad to see how terrible this gun is compared to the top tier guns.

ikr , people think dps is everything these days. This is such a great mid tier assault rifle, tis a pity it doesn't get the love it deserves. It really needs its ammo pool buffed back up to normal standards it isn't even close to op at all

[soooo why does the braton prime have a max ammo pool of 375 again?]

55 minutes ago, Rorgal_Sina said:

No one cares about "weak" weapons, so there's no player that's emotionally attached to it. That means DE can balance it without getting a major outcry.

Edit: And it's call kind of sad. Very sad.

See that mindset is wrong , it might not be huge dps weapons like the soma or boltor but it isn't a bad weapon, not top tier but still a good mid tier weapon. Dps isn't always everything, variety is the spice of life . That said it being mid tier is exactly the reason why it makes absolutely no sense why it should not have the average ammo count.

4 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

I just made a thread on the same topic lol 

 

XD, great minds think alike ?

[soooo why does the braton prime have a max ammo pool of 375 again?]

This completely baffles me. I had heard that at the time the devs wanted to keep the weapon "balanced," at least that is what someone told me, whether that is true or not doesn't really matter. The fact of the matter is that right now this gun still has a max ammo pool of 375, why???  We have the soma prime with a max ammo pool of frikin 800 and that is not even counting the starting 200 in the mag, which is one of if not the highest dps assault rifles in the game. Then we also have the boltor prime another top tier assault rifle rivalling the Soma and it's prime variant in terms of dps, yet that also has a higher ammo pool, the default of 540 that most rifles have. So why does the braton prime with a fairly average damage of 35 and a pretty good status chance of 20% , have a measly ammo pool of 375 ?

Besides this weapon's status chance this gun isn't  particularly special or overpowered at all, especially compared to it's competition. The game has evolved and changed a lot since the release and buff of this weapon, thus the power creep of weapons have gone up since then. Therefore I think it's only fair to give this weapon an ammo pool of 540, like the rest of the weapons of it's type. So please DE, I humbly ask if could you think about bringing this weapon up to scratch ? I doubt it would be hard to change just the ammo pool in a hotfix.

[Blindspam Mirage makes things boring and bad]

49 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

wait what? Berserk -  out of control with anger or excitement; wild or frenzied.  nothing about that says invincibility and her melee range makes her need it? try eternal war and any 2h weapon say scindo or galatine or war then slap life strike on it. that extremely high armor isnt for looks. invincibility isnt something anyone should control in an ONLINE game. show me 1 game outside warframe that is an online game that allows you to god mode. for her to have ridiculously high armor and have invincibility is an absolute mockery. forgot to mention hysteria passively has a free no energy channel life strike what is the point of this if you are invincible? there is no point.

Agreed she has more than enough armour not to mention in addition even more armour from her buff, as well as life steal in hysteria , the invincibility is totally unnecessary. That said lets try stay on topic though please and not bring other warframes and topics into the equation. 

[Blindspam Mirage makes things boring and bad]

35 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

Dont forget Hysteria Invincibility nerf. You are subjected to melee only and her range requires Invincibility, she is in a Rage mode it only makes sense.

I love Exalted Blade and its waves, but if people really despise it then shorten the waves I guess, not completely destroy them. or place them in specific combos. If so then make Channled attacks send increased Waves with infinite Punch through and and damage increase along with a higher drain. Uuuughh what am I saying. Forums is brain washing Me.

No I love EB leave the Waves please, dont listen to me that was just an analogy to Nerfs. Remember when You ask to nerf remember it wont get fixed for a Long time and I hope to not see You back here asking to rework/Buff it again. I mean why complain to begin with?

Excal is my most played frame in the game , I too do enjoy his EB very much so but I actually think he still needs work the fact that his combos don't really affect the waves disappoint me, not to mention my finger gets sore from all that clicking. I am surprised he has no charge attack with it either, considering they are bringing those back. What I want to see and an idea I had was a charge attack that greatly increases the size of the wave to a huge slash killing whole groups with one slash, the downside to this would be and even faster drain on energy while charging up the attack till the release. As for the right click combo and others perhaps give it some sort of proc or cc effect because EB does enough damage as is, we really don't need anymore damage multipliers.

As for the rest of his abilities , I think RJ needs too be removed completely since it practically has no use whatsoever, we have more than enough damage from EB and are sorted for cc too due to RB thus the ability has no role whatsoever. Perhaps replace the ability with some sort of melee or defensive buff, maybe even both. Because besides excal's armour the rest of his stats are very mediocre. Also about slash dash, it's damage is great, but right now the amount of targets it hits seem very random sometimes, it will only hit one in a group and sometimes multiple, the ability seems very wonky to me and even if it didn't have those problems, since EB has no base energy cost it is more efficient energy and dps wise, even if you only use it for a few seconds. For this ability I'm not exactly sure on how to rework it but right now I know it needs a lot more synergies with other abilities, what it is lacking is not damage but utility.

Anyway kind of went off on a tangent there , this is a topic for another day and another post. I do not want to derail this thread,  back to the topic , yeah you cannot nerf something without buffing something else in exchange , that is if you don't want balance at all.

[The Synoid Simulor is tearing this game apart.]

Nice pun harharhar, in all seriousness though move on people just another pointless and baseless nerf post

[Sayrn Constructive Analysis]

5 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Disclaimer: I do not use Saryn much. I have been testing her in various missions for a week or so. Trying various builds. If there are some things that I am missing, or that I need to factor in please let me know.

 

So at the advent of saryn prime's release I decided to try out Sayrn's kit. Im pretty open to most kits, as I enjoy frames like frost prime (who is m favorite) as much as ivara or nyx. I like to dip into other play styles and I think I can do pretty well at them. With that being said I really wanted to talk about sayrn's kit.

I heard a lot of complaining about the rework, you had one side that said misama does no damage but you had many youtubers proving that saryn is viable. For example Shy's critique on such comments and Fait KO's 40 min survival challenge. I couldn't choose a side because I never used Saryn, her kit never intrigued me and this was mainly because I did not enjoy her

A E S T H E T I C appearance.

 

But now that I can safely say that everyone is wrong. Saryn is not a bad frame but shes not a good one either. And today I wanted to discuss my qualms with the frame and how I think it should be changed.

 

Lets start off with, How do I play Saryn. Quite simply the objective of playing Saryn is to slowly weaken enemies and wither them to a vulnerable state. In a sense we got a poison version of ember where if you want to do the max amount of destruction you need to debuff the enemies. Although there is a big difference in Ember's kit and in Saryn's. For Ember your 4th ability (with maxed mods) can last for a very long time, deal constant damage and can optionally do CC. What she does not make in instant damage, she makes up for in sustained damage. Now you can say that sustained damage does not have place in a game that required you to kill as many enemies as fast as possible, but that is a discussion for another day.

 

With Saryn you have the same concept your misama sucks if you don't debuff your enemies. Now  for ember you cast accelerant and bam debuff, but with Saryn you need to add two procs on an enemy. You can either cast molt and put spores on the molt, Molt gives toxin procs and spores give viral procs. With these procs you can use misama and in "concept" do really good damage on enemies.

The problem is that it does not.  In addition her kit, suffers the same problems as pre-duration-buff ember had ,which was the fact that you needed everything to be good in order to be effective, you could only resort to balanced builds and you are unable to min max. Frames that have this issue get thrown into the curb because of this. A good frame in my opinion should have the option to min max while still allowing the other abilities that are not exactly affected to be some what effective. Ivara is a prime example of a frame where you can do anything you can do a sleep build, you can do a Artemis build you can do a prowl build and still retain some usefulness in at least 3/4 of your other powers.

 

Here is an example of me trying misama with the combo. The build is shown at the start of the video. I tried to consider my survivability, but replaced my primed flow with constitution to get the max amount of misama ticks. I tried it on a 105 corrupted gunner, just to see how much It would take to kill it.

 

 

And of course to my surprise it did almost nothing. Atlas' landside does a much better job, is 1/10th of the cost and is much easier to perform.  I understand this is a top tier enemy, but what about those "augmented enemy armor sorties" those guys are practically 105 gunners hell, maybe even stronger. If you want a frame to be viable you have to consider that if a player with at least 90% of the max power level he can achieve is unable to construct a build that can't even pick off a few guys than theres no point. Keep in mind I have tried many different builds with misama and spores on sorties, tritton runs, etc pretty much most of the endgame content that you can do on this game, and I still get that same underwhelming result.

 

I understand that "well the lower armor targets will get #Rekt" thats not the point. The actual enemies that are a threat HAVE armor. I can easily pick off the non armored targets with my gun. When putting that much work and considering that this is the PESTILENCE frame you would think that a poisoned cloned mate with a cold and decaying armor would be a lot easier to hit, unless theres a "Puffs +" tissue box weave under the armor, in that case I am beat.

 

In addition these are favorable conditions, the territory is spacious, no one else is shooting at me. I played sorties every day since they came out, and let me tell you these games get intense, you barely get enough time to move so to place a trap and spores then jumping into the area to misama is extremely risky. In addition you cant min max her build?

Now im not saying Saryn sucks, I think shes not being designed with the right intention. First of all why is Saryn even a damage frame? Seriously this is such an over sight. Why not make misama a debuff frame instead of a damage caster? 

Hear me out:

Since that molt + spore thing is one of the harder things to perform (compared to other frames) why don't we make it so instead of misama doing damage, we make misama strip armor away from enemies? This way we don't have to worry about damage entirely, we can focus on duration for CC and range in order to debuff as many enemies as possible. Saryn can potentially dominate the battle field, the corrosive frame, the corrosive proc is amazing and it's not even being used to its fullest potential. Viral is great in organized squads, but its to the point where spores are the only good cast in her kit.

You can make sayrn a frame who controls pivotal map locations and withers off enemies and cuts flow to enemies by making them really vulnerable. You guys made this 2.0 damage system, added a proc that takes away armor, and you are not even using it on the corrosive themed frame! By slightly shifting the focus away from damage, we now got a frame where you can mix max builds and get a lot more variety and specialized builds. Now Saryn is a unique frame, that can dominate with a twist. A support debuffer that strips away one of the most obstructive factors in the game. Keep her stats, keep her powers this is where it's at. 

The only issue I can see here is the combo of MIsama and Spores you can make the armor dissapear but then the viral on spores can be pretty powerful. I dont know if that would grind your gears DE but. I think with some tweaks we can make Sayrn the pestilence queen that she deserves to be. Im done with these garbage elemet based frames, we need to change out approach with support casters in this game and it starts with Saryn

You my man just hit the nail on the head, like you say she isn't a bad frame by any means but she isn't particularly great either. With just a simple change to miasma giving it garanteed corrosive procs, you basically give saryn a purpose again, imagine reducing enemy armour then stacking toxin/viral which absoloutely destroy flesh, you could devastate the battlefield , it sounds amazing. The only problems I still have though is her energy costs of having to use so many abilities in tangent, unnecessary reduction of hp pool, spore not spreading on enemy death and toxic lash being completely pointless ( needs another look tbh). Fix all of those problems and saryn could become one of the top tier frames.

[Excal And The Exalted Blade Fiasco. A Balancing Suggestion.]

sucks DE didn't add a dislike button with the website upgrades, for posts just like this.

[Hotfix 18.4.1: Operation Shadow Debt.]

Shrapnel shot ? looks like someone has been playing too much path of exile

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

I think one of the big problems is the rework highlights her as an individual and what she contributes to the team. This is a game where utility is king, and she doesn't have any. Spreading viral isn't a big utility because any frame can achieve that with status build weapons. She doesn't increase the team's damage output by a relevant degree, she doesn't plow through enemies, she doesn't reduce the threat that enemies pose. She has nothing to stand out of help a team, in a game where characters that have support options are held in extremely high regard. Nova, Loki, Trinity, Rhino, Frost, Equinox, Banshee, Vauban... right now if you stack what Saryn brings to a team up against other frames, I think its safe to call her one of the three worst Warframes.

My thoughts are based on the words of the community and footage I have seen from the people here because I am a PS4 Tenno who hasn't touched this new build yet. But I have a process when I select a Warframe for a mission. I think about what the mission type is, what that Warframe offers to my squad, and how much easier will the mission be if I bring that frame. As a result, I almost never play frames like Saryn. Because Saryn doesn't make my teammate's lives easier. She just inflicts damage. The biggest thing she needs right now is a way to truly help her team beyond just making enemies hurt.

Consider making Miasma stun enemies for longer. Maybe look at having Miasma apply a guaranteed Corrosive proc, similar to Spore's Viral and Toxic Lash's Toxin. Take a look at potentially having Toxic Lash affect teammate or consider making it a toggle. Small tweaks that can give her more of a presence in a team and more worthwhile in longer runs. I think she may even need more beyond these things to be truly relevant in harder missions, but ideas like those can help her stand out more and really contribute to the team effort.

Right now she can't hope to stand out against the other frames because she brings no direct support to the team, and support is king in Warframe. She needs some way to truly help her team to really shine in this game. As it stands, she doesn't help the team besides doing what most of our guns do better: Inflicting damage.

agreed add to the fact doing all this costs her a ridiculous amount of energy for what other frames can do better.

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Lets be honest - Warframe is not about fabulous combat-setups. Yeah, you can achieve nice damage if enemies have viral + toxic, but who is going to bother?

 

I mean, the damage is about the same? Yeah, k, what about the cast time? It takes FAR too long to actually get all that damage starting and it takes even longer for it to be dealt. What was great about Saryn was her abilitiy to quickly nuke a room and continue. Now it's a slugfest at best. And it costs more energie.

 

Let's sum it up then, shall we?

 

Pro:

 

+ Pretty Skin

 

Contra:

 

- Less damage on average

- The DPS did the same thing Neo did when he first tried to jump to the other building

- A LOT more energy to deal the same damage needed

- By the time you are done casting, somebody probably already cleared the room with an unmodded Lato

these ae all the problems I have with this rework, people saying she is fine right now is bullS#&$.

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

 

I believe the rework is in the right direction. Before, her only used skills were Miasma to nuke/stun, and molt to heal/decoy.

I like how the rework makes all her abilities viable. There's just a few problems.

She's far less tanky (thanks to the health buff nerf) and in order to utilize her melee, you need to get close. The small armor buff isn't enough to mitigate the damage she use to beable to tank. Further more, her regenerative molt isn't as useful now, since the duration increases the time it takes to heal.

That being said.

 

Spores: I think its perfect as is. Does moderate damage. Instant proc of viral. Spreads other status effects to enemies when spores explode. And the best part about the rework, it spreads upon death.

I think this is a great skill now, and no need to change at all.

 

Molt: I feel she lost a lot of her survivability, and since Saryn was "supposedly"  a "tankier frame" yet has no tank capability anymore, a slight change to molt. Mesa is a squishy frame, but she has Shatter shield, that reduces, and reflects incoming damage. I'm not saying, change Molt into shatter shield, Im suggesting...

Since Molt is "shedding" her skin, why not have it dual cast. 

1st cast: Prepares the skin to be shed, effectively giving her a "layer" of skin around her body, reducing incoming damage by XX%, or absorbing damage by XX%. 

2nd cast: will "shed" the skin, and it will act like a decoy (like it is now) and last for the duration of the skill.

The duration is the same, and if it were to explode while on you, it's properties still stay the same (still does damage, or explodes upon being destroyed) Also. Double the explosion radius(you'll see why)

 

Toxic Lash: It's also fine as is-ish. Why strictly melee? Why not add that toxin damage to primary and sedondary? I don't really care too much, the increase in damage, damage reduction, and duration has also made this skill fairly good.

 

Miasma Overgrown: Saryn is a plant based frame. Most people become confused and think she's a disease based frame. I believe her ult should release vines with thorns that spread through the ground (same radius as miasma as is). When thorns touch enemies, they snare enemies for X seconds, stun them for x seconds (half the time of the snare) and pop spores, and makes molt explode. Also does 100% Extra damage for toxin and viral procs. After the ability is casted, the vines erode but leave behind their thorns (for x seconds) that slow, and inflict toxin proc on enemies.

 

 

This brings back her tankiness, keeps the skill synergy alive, and reminds people she's a plant frame, not a disease frame.

 

Current miasma stuns for 3 seconds, so the vines would stun for 3 seconds, and keep them snared another 3 seconds. he thorns would have the same effect as the Tar Moa, but in the form of a plant, rather then goo.

TL;DR : Keep spore, have molt give her the ability to get close range, toxic lash keep, change miasma to be plant based attack.

 

 spores don't spread on death btw, you still have to shoot them before the enemy dies otherwise no spread 

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Couldn't just use the mega thread for this?

I intend for people to see this, not get buried under a bunch of posts

 

Oh synergy is there alright.

Her Molt is now 100% more useful than just a free heal and door stopper. It actually does decent damage together with Spore, even when I did not trigger Miasma on them. 

Toxic Lash still remains lack lustre as a self buff ability compared to others, but I used it with a high attack speed weapon (Surprise surprise Dual Zoren, which everyone is complaining about the skin for) and got some really weird kick when I'm just shredding Bombards with a Zoren. 

 

All she needs is some QoL, and she will be the most fun frame (for some) that DE ever released for awhile. Aside from Atlas. Ragdolling is hella fun.

 

 

PS:  "While I like the rework I also don't like it"    Posts need to stop period

 

Her synergy is there yes, but she depends on it too heavily, her synergy should be a bonus not a reliance. But yes I too think toxic lash is still too niche of a skill to be useful, now if we could use it with guns too that might change things. I like the synergy with spore and molt that was a welcome change but besides these two her other kind of two suck. Over all though I agree with you, if she got a bit more tweaks, especially to energy cost she could be so much better, right now though she is kind of lacklustre.

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Miasma can be synergetic with viral procs from Red Veil, but that still is a quirky mechanic and takes away choice instead of adding it. Also, I can't believe they didn't make spores detonate on target death, which still means you may spore a target and watch it get killed without spreading anything.

So, to set up a target, it has to be tough, so it can live through a melee strike which would set up toxin, a spore cast and then a spore popping shot, while being in a crowd of enemies. Saryn also has to stay alive while doing all that. Good luck with that.

Overall I agree with OP. The rework is meh. Saryn now has too little damage for too much work, almost no readily available utility, she's forced to use melee weapon to get to her full potential while not having the defenses of melee frames, and she'd better be using a Red Veil augment/weapon too. This is too much hassle for too little reward, and as much as I like her concept, I didn't play her when she was boring "press 4 to win", and I'm not gonna play her now that she's "press a whole lot of buttons and still fall short".

 ikr , glad someone understands my point I also didn't understand why they didn't make the spores spread on death, many times i have just had enemies die outright before they spread or killed by players before they can. Saryn right now really isn't pub friendly, for her to even be somewhat effective you have to have a group build warframes specifically around her to feed her energy and cc as well as not wipe everything out before the spores spread. So you either need a dedicated group or play solo.   

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Setup really doesn't take long, especially now that spores spread on death. One marked enemy is usually enough. If you are really using too much energy then I must say you take a look at how you are going about it. In addition her abilities can cause feedback loops in tougher crowd groupings using lash or an aoe weapon. Spores popped by aoe weapons still spread to enemies near so constant popping with something like ignis means results happen fast and reliably.

it still takes too much time. If you just use her first ability not it doesn't take long to set up but using her 1 2 and 4th in a rotation takes time and energy.  My problem is it's not enough , while viable it is not much better then the first incarnation besides being able to spread it via molt. Not to mention her 3 and 4 are useless. Excalibur for example would have killed a group of enemies by the time saryn does with the same level enemies. She still needs more work, it's a nice step in the right direction but as of now she's mediocre compared to other frames . 

 

almost all of maismas potential damage was transferred into potential damage from spore which utilizing spore properly with a good toxin aoe weapon returns all of the damage maisma once had

 

Nice try, but no using all her skills together she is still less effective. We also don't get corrosive procs from misama anymore

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

That makes the assumption there is only one playstyle.

 Not really, warframe in general is a fast paced game, It is not matter of playstyle . Saryn's toolset costs too much energy and has too long of a set up for the damage any other frame or gun for that matter can dish out faster. By design it is counter intuitive to warframe's fast paced combat. Unless you have the perfect environment to set her abilities up she sucks and even then the damage is meh. Her only somewhat decent ability now is her first one her others fall short .

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Too little effort in the playstyle was part of the reason for change. As for team play, constant viral procs will always cut max health in half which long into endless, means less time an enemy is alive when guns are starting to fall off.

I don't mind putting in effort for  the damage, but still takes too long for the payoff for something not better then the last incarnation, WF is simply too fast for saryn's playstyle to be effective right now. Equinox is a better saryn and a good example of what she should be not what she is currently.

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Saryn's abilities spread and reciprocate insanely quickly if you know what you are doing. I've had toxic spore bursts level entire squads of Ceres class grineer.

 

 

Sure but you could already do that with half the effort

ever thought her DoT and Debuffs were ment for team senergy?

 

What team synergy ? The enemies will be dead before you are done casting

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

While I like and agree with the current changes to saryn on paper they were not put into practice very well. It seems like all of her abilities just don't deal enough damage at all she has no cc or stun to keep her alive to set up her combos, besides a measly decoy ability. Her damage is what was supposed to keep her alive, but without it and she has no form of offensive defense .

 

I don't mind doing more work to get good damage out of misama however the pay off for so much set up, time and energy before you deal any form of decent damage is disappointing. Misama dealing less damage then the old one with no debuffs is fine, but it seems to do no damage at all without debuffs and that isn't. You also deal this damage much too slowly thus get your self killed in the process, especially when guns or other frame's abilities could have just done the job much more quickly and efficiently without wasting so much energy or time.

 

Debuffs should allow Saryn to deal more damage, they should not be her ONLY way of dealing damage , that is dependence not synergy.

 

Loki is a good example of well balanced synergies, you can use every one of his abilities by themselves and they will be effective but if you use them together they work even better unlike, Saryn where if you don't use them in tangent they suck completely. Skills should synergize and combo but never be reliant on each other to be good. Even when the moons align and you use all her abilities perfectly, the damage output is too slow, unsatisfying, and costs way too much energy for what used to be just one skill. You literally can only use 2-3 rotations before you have to get more energy.

 

Besides misama getting nerfed they rest of her toolset still feels mediocre and situational just like before the buff the only difference now is that she doesn't have misama to fall back on and has less HP. She does not deal more damage then she did before don't try and bullS#&$ me, I have tested it out.

 

Warframe is a very fast paced game with very fluid combat you won't have time to sit still and apply all those debuffs before something or someone else kills them. DE need to increase her damaging abilities further, give her some kind of defensive buff or cc to allow her to cast these abilities properly and increase the DoT speed.

 

Thus right now instead of having one really overpowered ability ( which did need a nerf mind you) she now has 4 mediocre ones.

 

I have no qualms with the miasma nerf, my problem is that they did not buff her other 3 skills enough to compensate. So don't even try and call me a press4towin noob or "adapt and move on"" as a valid excuse for an argument.

 

EDIT: removed bold text for better viewing on black background

[Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.]

Started to add feedback to the megathread and it turned into a three page monstrosity. I'll link it to the thread instead. :D

 

Let me preface with; I love the rework, it was badly needed, and most of the mechanics are great. Spore is quite useful and linking it off of Molt is brilliant. Melee Saryn is much more viable now as well. I have no problem with the slight ehp reduction (~10%) for the badly needed energy cap increase (+50%).

 

After a day of testing, solo missions, void missions in a group, discussions with other players in-game and on the forums, and a great deal of Simulacrum testing, I have come up with a number of 'problems' and potential solutions that would make Saryn much more userfriendly and effective, without losing the ability synergy or making her too powerful (Obviously implementing only some of them, not all, that would be quite OP).

 

 

#1 Energy costs

A full rotation of Molt, Spore and Miasma costs a base of 175 energy, or 7 energy orbs. If you use Toxic Lash as well you're looking at your entire 225 energy pool for a single rotation of abilities. Because players are wary of installing Fleeting Expertise (see #2) you end up with a rotation cost (at a minimum) of ~125 or 5 energy orbs; in order to have ~5 energy orbs drop from the enemies killed you need to have killed a group of 20-30 enemies, which is absurd.

 

Solutions;

a) Reduce the energy cost for Molt and/or Spore. Perhaps make Spore free when cast on Molt or targets affected by a Toxin proc. 

b) Add energy regeneration in some form; when Spores pop, or a tiny amount per second for each spore active. Energy generation should be for Saryn only, not the whole team.

c) See #5 b), add some way to generate energy from tanking damage (built in Rage, etc). 

 

#2 Modding/Duration

With your debuffs, DoTs, and combo timing all dependent on keeping high duration, modding becomes quite tricky. You need all of Strength, Range, Duration, and Efficiency and it's not really possible with Corrupted mods. Not everyone has access to Primed Continuity, especially newer players, and without it it's hard to get back to full duration while FE is installed (takes 2 slots or a range reduction). Meaning the best you can do with max efficiency is ~108% duration, 145% range, and 130% strength (takes 6 slots, which means no more rage+vit+RMolt), which is disappointing when non-duration dependent frames easily reach 185% strength or 235% range with similar stats. In order to make Miasma hit much harder and/or last longer, it is necessary to drop Fleeting Expertise, which makes energy costs unreasonable (see #1). Balancing Corrupted mods to get more of a stat boost results in no remaining slots for ehp mods, making Saryn rather fragile.

 

Solutions:

a) Increase the base range or damage of Miasma slightly (Patch notes say the base damage went up, when in fact it went from 375 to 350 per tick with 4 ticks instead of 5 ticks at base, went from 1875 to 1400, a 25% reduction in base damage). Increasing the base damage reduces the need for strength, while adding range would reduce the need for modding to increase range.

b) Make her passive +25% duration, to abilities as well as status procs. In addtion, make more than 100% duration unhelpful; either ticks stop doing damage (still apply status) or they reduce in damage/tick to make the same total. This would make ~75% duration a set goal, much more reasonable, instead of 'as much as you can'.

c) Increase the duration of the Viral status to 8 seconds (I toss this in here because it should be like this globally, imo)

d) Release Primed Streamline, or give us another mod to increase Efficiency without compromising other needed stats; a Nightmare mod that gives +20% efficiency (and some other small boost) would be sufficient

e) See #1 c), adding some form of built in Rage would remove the need for that mod to counter energy costs, freeing up a slot.

f) Bring back the duration scaling considered during testing, which made damage/tick go up when duration dropped. I personally don't like this option but it would be a solution to the modding troubles.

 

Those 2 are the biggest issues, but there's a few ability-specific troubles as well;

 

#3 Spore

The biggest problem with spreading Spores in a team, without the use of Molt, is teammates killing a Spore'd target before you are able to pop the spores (either through an AoE or not caring/noticing the spores), effectively wasting your cast entirely. The solution here is fairly obvious - make enemies with Spores active spread them upon death. If this is a little too powerful in a crowd, at least implement this on the *initial* target of the Spore ability. This would also help immensely with the 'stack toxin procs on an enemy and spread them with Spore' tactic, which currently struggles to make the actual detonation before the enemy is killed from the toxin procs. Finally, this would remove the currently near-overwhelming AoE weapons like the Ignis are getting for popping spores.

 

Spores often do not appear visually and cannot be popped for a second or so on some enemies. This occurred with the old Venom as well, and it feeds into the problem above. 

 

#4 Molt

This one's doing pretty good; I like the increased threat and explosion range a lot. All it really needs is a way to detonate it manually without spending more energy. If adding this to the ability is too tough, simply allowing us to shoot/hit it and kill it ourselves would help immensely, both with energy costs and making it more user friendly.

 

I ran into a bug today where the Molt would continually despawn as soon as I cast it, without detonating. Very frustrating, would only stay active like 1 in 5 cast attempts.

 

An augment to make Molt spawn with Spore already applied to it would be very helpful, reducing both the energy required and the time needed to set up Miasma. Might be too overused, but you would have the option of not using it to use the slot for more duration/range/strength instead. (See #5 d) for what would happen to Regenerative Molt)

 

While Molt's increased threat/aggro range is really nice, it does present some problems. The ability is quite easily 'killed' at higher levels, and the spawn location (right on top of you) means that nearby enemies turn and immediately fire *right at you*, which is a good way to get yourself killed. Molt would be immensely more helpful if it had a ~2 second absorption period similar to Snowglobe, and spawned a few steps in front of or beside you (in front would also make the 'Spore on Molt' combo easier/quicker).

 

#5 Toxic Lash

This is a much better concept for making melee Saryn pretty viable; it's a little buggy right now but fixed up it'll work well. Currently it's very inconsistent as to whether it will decide to spread Spore or not - it almost never spreads if the Spore was applied very recently (ie cast+hit and no spread, cast+wait+hit works[this is likely a problem with Spore rather than TL]). It also seems not to spread when using quick attacks (unconfirmed). The damage amplification feels very weak, tho. I'm not entirely sure it's working correctly.

 

There's a bit of a missed opportunity here to make TL an ability-weapon like EB/Hysteria/Landslide. It wouldn't need that level of damage and this is more of a personal desire to see Saryn wielding a glowing toxin whip than anything to do with balance. :D

 

The added blocking is very hit or miss. It's nice and effective on weapons that previously blocked only a small percentage of damage (~35%) but it's fairly negligible when using a weapon that would normally block 85% of incoming damage. Plus, when you're blocking you're not normally at risk of death, that occurs when attacking/knocked down etc.

 

Finally, the biggest problem with TL is the same thing that plagued Contagion; it has no role in caster/guns gameplay. It's not needed to burst spores, weapons/molt is much more efficient, and the blocking bonus to ehp is not helpful when not holding a sword.

 

Solutions (apart from bugfixes, damage amp):

a) Make the damage reduction granted by TL the same for any melee weapon, and the same when using ranged weapons. Instead of (increases ehp by 50% for hammers, 650% for daggers, 0% for guns), maybe make it a straight ~10-25% damage resistance while active.

b) Help with energy generation - ~2-5% of damage taken while TL is active is removed and converted to energy.

c) Replace the blocking buff with a movement speed increase (getting there sooner is the same as taking less damage while getting there).

d) Switch the Regenerative Molt augment to Regenerative Lash, and allow TL to cause either healing or Life Strike (without needing to pull out the weapon). If you were to swap the Regenerative Molt augment to TL, I have the perfect idea for the Molt augment - Molt spawns with Spore already cast upon it. This helps with both the energy costs and helps reduce the setup time for Miasma.

e) Make the toxin proc caused by meleeing to be based on the ability damage, or the entire toxin damage on the weapon, or something to make it deal significantly more damage/tick than it does now. Amplifying the damage of the DoT would give us a reason to prefer breaking Spores using TL than Molt or a weapon.

 

#6 Miasma

I just want to reiterate something from earlier - pre-rework Miasma dealt 1875 damage totally unmodded. Post rework it deals 1400 damage. I'm okay with you feeling the need to reduce the damage of the ability now that it can be buffed, but a 25% reduction in base damage is a bit harsh. I'm especially irritated by this line in the patch/change notes:

 

Please. I could understand a statement like 'with the 3x damage from Toxin and Viral procs present on the target, Miasma now deals more damage than before' or something like that. But base damage implies unbuffed, unmodified, and it was reduced by 25%.

 

I suspect that someone at DE goofed, or was unaware that pre-rework unmodded Miasma dealt 5 ticks of damage, while post-rework only deals 4. I could understand the drop from 1500 to 1400 damage as a ~7% reduction, but the 25% number just seems like way too much.

 

If the 3x damage from synergy was intended to make up for the ~2.4x damage previously possible from reduction duration pre-rework, than there doesn't seem to be a need to reduce the base damage so drastically as well, when setting up the toxin+viral statuses costs additional energy and time.

 

Solution

a) Give Miasma it's 5th tick back, or increase the damage per tick to ~400.

b) Alternatively, buff the range so we can use that range slot to make up the lost damage - see #2 a).

 

Conclusion:

I really like the rework so far, but there's a lot of little tweaks that could make her far more engaging, effective, and attractive to players. I don't think I've suggested anything here too excessive, overpowered, or difficult to implement.

 On point man , was gonna make a post about this myself but you pointed out all the flaws there were with this rework. I agree with everything you said, as of right instead of one overpowered skill ( which did need a nerf mind you) we have 4 mediocre ones that cost too much energy and do too little damage to be effective with.

[Major Nerf: Negative Duration Increases Energy Per Second Consumed On Toggled Abilities]

By this same logic, in next patch abilities with no duration will have their energy cost increased in case of negative duration, "because there has to be downsides". :O

Anyway, toggled ability frames will now have to build for duration. Poor Ember. The patch that removed stupid timer on her ulty also introduced this new mechanic that still means she needs duration.

 ikr poor ember , this change was dumb as f uck

[Atlas's Ultimate]

They could have atleast make ult brawling related since they false advertised him as brawler frame which it isnt with him having only ONE brawling related ability.

 

ikr they always false advertise, he isn't a brawler at all is what I was saying before he came out, they did the same thing with limbo calling him a sorcerer when he is a magician in actuality.

 

This is why I have not gotten most of the newer frames , because most of them suck.

[Concerns Regarding Post-Buff Hysteria: Over-Buffed? Where Is The Downside?]

I recently went to wave 20 on Xini as a quick test of Hysteria's new power, and here are my thoughts on the ability afterwards.

 

My Valkyr & Scindo Prime builds:

 

 

From what I saw, nearly every single swing was a crit. I don't have an exact number on the crit chance, though. I was seeing crits anywhere between about 16k to over 70k. My highest crit was over 400k, and was dealt by a finisher performed on an unaware enemy. I would say the damage is comparable to bow shots.

 

The changes to duration and toggled abilities have certainly increased the power of this ability. As I recall, I was losing about 1 energy per second when no Parasitic Eximus enemies were around, and just with energy orbs dropped from killed enemies, the only time I ever had to deactivate Hysteria was when an Ancient dragged me off the map.

 

Here is my honest opinion on Hysteria's current state:

 

It's completely unreasonable to be invincible while also being able to deal this much damage.

 

I'm a supporter of the damage that Valkyr can put out after the Hysteria buff. I haven't been able to extensively test yet, but I hope that these changes are sufficient to allow Valkyr's damage to still be useful in endgame (whatever level "endgame" actually is, no level cap, so no clue on that) high level content.

 

What I'm not a supporter of is being permanently invincible while simultaneously being able to deal this much damage. DE might as well just give us the god mode that we see them use in devstreams at that point. Isn't a berserker supposed to cater to a high risk, high reward playstyle? Right now, there's absolutely zero risk to using Hysteria, you're just permanently invincible* and can put our massive amounts of damage.

 

*It appears there is a bug that causes Valkyr to take damage from Tar MOA's tar while Hysteria is active. I guess it's not true invincibility.

 

I also have some significantly more minor thoughts about Hysteria being toggleable. Wasn't the main downside to using Hysteria always that you had to commit to your melee weapon for a period of time? That downside is removed as well. I think the invincibility combined with the damage output would be a bit less unreasonable if you had to make a commitment before going in; at least then it would still have some sort of downside.

 

Right now, we have an ability with zero downsides that makes you nearly completely invincible and put out massive amounts of damage that has next-to-no energy cost and is entirely self-sustaining. I think that's a bit of a problem.

 

There's a ton of ways we could solve this problem. For Hysteria to be in any way reasonable, it has to have some sort of mechanical downside. what I would personally do is remove the invincibility from Hysteria and replace it with a super powerful version of Quick Thinking, with a greatly boosted conversion rate from Quick Thinking's 240%. This would mean that as soon as your health reached zero, you would start being penalized for taking damage by having Hysteria's uptime reduced. This would also create synergy with Warcry, because more armor means more damage you can take before you start losing energy. The life steal would remain, allowing Valkyr to get her health back up and prevent the energy drain by dealing more damage.

 

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I don't see how having self-sustaining permanent invincibility on top of incredibly high damage output with no downsides whatsoever is in any way acceptable.

 I agree i think the damage she deals is fine though, as long as there is a much greater risk to use it. The invulnerability needs to go it already comes with lifesteal, rage is also not as good on her too which is actually a downside , because she can't keep up her toggle as long as excal, cause she aint taking damage.

[The Whole Damage System And Enemy Scaling Needs To Be Reworked, Not Just Nerfing Multishot]

Where did you see they will release this in U18? Do you have any source?

 I said IF 

[The Whole Damage System And Enemy Scaling Needs To Be Reworked, Not Just Nerfing Multishot]

Do you have any idea how late you are? There are threads that talk about this already. Pretty sure Scott said he was looking at the whole system via Twitter.

 

 

I think that's pretty much the conclusion they've (DE) come to as well. 

 

I knew I was not exactly early, but my point still stands, even if they are considering changing the whole system they can't rush such a  drastic change out in u18.

 

1. They already said they're basically going to rework every system related to damage via twitter post ^ source above in LazerSkink's post.

 

2. They said LITERALLY TWO SECONDS AFTER "changes to multishot" in the stream- that they would rebalance everything. Can all of you people freaking out on forums LITERALLY not have the attention span to keep listening for LITERALLY TWO SECONDS longer when you hear something you dislike in the slightest??

 

 

They don't exactly keep their promises you know, they also can and have gone back on their word