sinisteran
-
Posts
45 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by sinisteran
-
-
6 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
Hey all,
We are planning on launching Plains of Eidolon on PC today.
This will serve as a status thread for the day updated with meaningful information on the build.
Take a seat, stay a while, and join us as we wrap things up with the goal to deploy today.
Cheers!Status thread? Is Crit no longer the meta for POE confirmed? XD
-
1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:
quote
The easiest solution I think DE can and should do is to change to Eula and allow data mining as long as it does not breach fair use or set STATED PARAMETERS.
For example they could say in the EULA to allow drop rate, locations, rotations, stats of released weapon and frames within the latest build or something like this.
And state the things not allowed- audio clips, scripts, or anything related to frames and weapons that are currently not in the latest ver of the consumer build.
But the grey area would be S#&$ they showed off in devstream or by accident.
-
1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:
edit: ppl seeing this could potentially get the wrong perception and judge preemptively. is that considered proof of revenue loss?
Nope, because what you are doing is exercising free speech unless you are actively defaming them. But if you went Datamined Harrows questline and posted all audio dialogue, script etc then yes.
-
2 minutes ago, ..atom.. said:
5, you seem to know what you are talking about but afaik DE didn't exactly say they have proof. for all we know their "evidence" is that one reddit post in which Void claims to know how the hack was done after the fact, but doesn't want to share the info for security purposes (clearly with the intention of keeping DE from harm). that doesn't mean he's involved.
also i don't think he has to prove anything as it is DE that has the burden of proof in this case. am i wrong?
9. i can argue that any leak actually builds hype and results in boosted sales unless the quality is low in which case a leak can help them remedy the situation and release a better product. afaik they are selling a long term service here it's in DE's best interest to sell high quality so they have returning customers. i'm pretty sure TWW resulted in better sales despite being leaked when compared to octavia's anthem
i can also argue that taking legal action against an innocent teenager (if he wasn't involved in the hack) that has helped the community and ultimately DE to such an extent and therefore losing the respect and dedication of the playerbase can indeed lead to revenue loss.
If DE didnt have actual proof. They wont say anything. This is a multi million company and not some child in a playground.
the probem is the scripts and mines werent final. So they arent the final form and is subject to changes. Ppl seeing this would get the wrong perception and judge preemptively. When the final product could be massively better.
-
On 25/06/2017 at 6:32 AM, Spooky_Shuck said:
I have never used these forums to post before, so apologies if I somehow screw up the formatting. There's a few things I'd like to address in Rob's post, but before I do, I'd like to state that just because you agree with Rob or myself, this doesn't mean that facts have suddenly been posted. This is a fairly complex case in an area of law that is still developing and often relies on archaic legislation never intended for this electronic era. This is just interpretation of the little information DE have given Void_Glitch and the community with regards to their threat of legal action.
To put this as politely as I can, however; I am unsure how you can carry yourself in this discussion so arrogantly, as if you are dropping truth bombs, or whatever 'spilling tea' means, when you've really not demonstrated the comprehensive knowledge you'd need to back up such a self-assured tone.
In my opinion, Rob is partially correct here, in that the artwork is naturally DE's intellectual property. However, I am unsure as to how he has assumed that simply posting artwork in itself would constitute as copyright infringement worthy of prosecution in the courts. Rob, to his credit, discussed this a little later on, but to reiterate with my own opinion;
I can post that artwork myself right here, if I wished, and unless I attempted to pass said work off as my own, attempted to profit from that artwork - the usual pitfalls - you'd be unlikely to find a court that would think such a matter was worth prosecution and punishment. It's a little tricky to discuss this with certainty, however, as this is one area of copyright law that has to be reasonably interpreted; posting an image of a mod is unlikely to get anywhere in court, but a wholesale rip of all the games artwork would be another story. It's one of those areas that has to be judged by the idea of 'common sense' - if I quote Einstein, you'd have a hard time pressing charges against me, but if I replicated all his written works and posted them here, his estate would have a case on their hands.
Rob's list of leaks mostly doesn't seem to relate to intellectual property any more than it does announcements and so on, however. It's hard to gauge exactly how much artwork and so on was leaked. The script would be the most damning, certainly, but that was many years ago, and DE will have a hard time explaining why, if that was so damaging, they waited so long to press charges, and how they only seem to have gone from strength to strength financially afterwards regardless.
Ultimately, in my opinion, then, this would come down to whether Digital Extremes can present a case based on damages suffered. I'll discuss that in more detail below, but so far, I feel this is an academic point at best; I can't imagine many prosecutors, let alone judges, would find it in the public interest to press charges against a foreign teenager for posting images that he in no way attempted to take credit for, or profit from.
I don't really have much to say with regards to the EULA, as it's largely irrelevant. Digital Extremes have every right to ban whoever they see fit, but a license agreement is not a legally binding document that decides the law of the land as it sees fit. Any actual crimes mentioned within the EULA are already crimes, and simply disallowing something in such an agreement does not make it necessarily illegal in court - as again, this isn't a binding contract between companies, or a failure to provide an agreed upon product or service, it amounts to 'no cheating or we'll ban you'. If I fill trade chat with endless spam, they can ban me, but that doesn't mean they can sue me. So, yes, they can do whatever they like to Void_Glitch's account, but that's not usually relevant to a court case. There's little a EULA contributes as the law itself already determines lawful or unlawful acts.
That said, whilst I disagree with the above, this was mostly fine. Again, these parts come down to interpretation in large part. However, a great deal of Rob's post was not only arrogant, and extremely hyperbolic, but misinformed and misleading - arguably manipulative, as well.
This is outright, demonstrably false - at least, under US law, in this context. Rob's language is a little inconsistent here, as he first says breach of contract, but then discusses the crime of hacking. I'm going to assume, given the matter at hand, though, that Rob is asserting that reverse engineering is in some way an illicit violation of Digital Extreme's property. Again, this is not true in general, barring specifically protected exemptions, but in the US it is even a positive right.
Cases like Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. v. Connectix Corp. (2000) have very clearly affirmed the legal right to datamine, examine the interior code of a product, and then recreate your own with whatever knowledge you gleam. In other words, simply copy-pasting or otherwise replicating the exact code is naturally theft, but otherwise, even reverse engineering is considered fair use. In the US there is clear precedent permitting the cracking and examination of software and even using what you've learned to make your own product, as long as it is truly yours and not a one-to-one replication.
Here's a very brief excerpt from copyright.gov:
The court concluded that the intermediate copies Connectix made and used during the course of its reverse engineering of the BIOS program were protected fair use, necessary to permit Connectix to make its non-infringing Virtual Game Station function with PlayStation games.
This court's ruling was in part made in itself based on a preceding ruling by a considerably older but very similar case: Sega Enterprises Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc. (1992) - this precedent was set by the appellate courts and the supreme court declined to further deliberate on the matter. As far as precedent goes, in the US, when it comes to code, reverse engineering is entirely protected. There really isn't much else to say here: either Rob was asserting that this process is illegal, which it simply isn't, or he was just discussing the EULA still...which wouldn't make any sense given the rest of the paragraph and would be a moot point anyway.
As I've said, if you're simply basing this on datamining and reverse engineering, then this is again, entirely false, but more importantly;
I find the way you wrote this to be extremely odd, if not manipulative. Void_Glitch is, currently, by law, not liable for anything at all. As in, he has not even been charged. You speak of overwhelming bias, yet have written this as if his guilt is presumed and he must work to disprove DE's vague assertions. You know full well Void_Glitch's innocence is presumed and that DE must work to establish damages suffered etc. in a hearing, before Void_Glitch even needs to consider defending himself.
Digital Extremes must provide very clear evidence that they suffered real damages as a result of...well, what exactly? People knowing Primed Streamline exists? With the same artwork as the non-Primed version? The hacking of a skin that is now years old and the Chinese already had access to?
Well, good luck proving that that somehow caused untold financial damages, in a free to play game where the content in itself is offered free of charge. Unless Primed Streamline was going to be sold, that's not even in question, and I'm not sure how you can 'spoil' the existence of something that's already been publicly released for years elsewhere in the world. Given that very small percentages of a free to play game's population spend real money on the game, the oft-dubbed 'whales' of free to play games, this becomes even more nebulous.
I want to be civil about this, but what the Hell, Rob?
Firstly, 'potential' damage, i.e. speculative damage, will get DE nowhere in a hearing. You can't just wildly speculate on what damages you could have or might have suffered, nor can you simply assert without evidence that you would have made enormous amounts of money from your, again, free to play quest, had someone not leaked a script.
Secondly, I'm glad we agree that these damages are 'immeasurable' - as in, completely improvable, impossible to measure, utterly intangible. How are DE going to demonstrate the number of people who even read the leaked script? How do you then determine who read that leaked script and...again seriously what financial damages are there regarding freely provided content?
No, really; how would DE demonstrate 'potential' damage based on an alternate timeline to a court?
Seriously, what is this? Do you really want to condemn the extreme bias of others when you've written this just after asserting the notion of "potentially immeasurable damage" from DE's perspective? Either this is something that can be investigated and quantified or it can't, you can't boldly state immeasurable damages then with a straight-face claim no one can definitely prove no damages were suffered. Digital Extremes better hope they can find a way to measure it if they want to keep threatening a teenager with legal action, I'll say that much.
Considering that he's a minor, has yet to even be clearly accused of a crime - or rather, an activity that's actually illegal, and not explicitly protected under fair use by clear case law in the country it was performed - and yet has been threatened with, as you put it, having his entire life, and the lives of his family ruined...no. Again, hard to be civil and take your comments on bias seriously when you write stuff like this. He's a teenager, there are people his age that receive not only lighter sentencing but entirely commuted sentencing for crimes involving violence.
You want me to believe that financially ruining him and his family, with possible jail time, depending on whatever charges they want to eventually decide on, because he posted loot tables and a script that Digital Extremes made available client side on every computer with Warframe installed? Because we really do need to address that: Void_Glitch can only datamine what DE put on his computer. If I'm making a movie and the leaking of the script could ruin it and cause huge financial damages, I don't know about you, but if it was that important, I probably wouldn't send thousands and thousands of copies of the early script out, nor do I really think you can claim something is private, let alone secret, if you install it on that many people's computers.
I can summarise this with even less detail: purely speculative notions of what amounts to an alternate universe. Again, how would you even measure 'less new players' because of a Baro leak? How would you demonstrate a sizeable number of people specifically didn't log in because of a leak? So, they would have been excited, but it was announced early, and they weren't excited, but they definitely would have been excited a bit later? This reminds me of the 'lost sales' argument, commonly rebutted by pointing out that you can't use speculative future sales you pull out of nowhere to determine damages, otherwise I could project 1 billion new players when determining financial loss.
I'm going to wrap this up here, but I do have one more point to make:
Rob, I'm not sure why you've tried to do this in such an arrogant manner, as if you alone are the voice of reason, even going so far as to assert your fellow YouTubers are 'without morals', acting as if you can discuss a really quite complex case with such certainty and, again, 'spill tea' - but you really can't. I can't either, I'm not more an expert in this complex area of law than you are. Well, maybe I am, because I do know one thing you apparently don't, as it's very, very relevant, far more so than other things you've mentioned, yet you haven't even brought it up in passing:
I'm glad you recognise the relevance of Canada's laws here, of course, as the copyright owners are based in Canada, but that's kind of the issue I have the way you've gone about this, not just here but elsewhere.
Canada's copyright law doesn't use 'Fair Use' Rob, the Fair Use defense does not exist in Canada, they instead use Fair Dealing, a similar sounding but rather different defense, altogether far more lenient than Fair Use, including the uses of 'research' and 'reporting', both highly relevant to this case.
I find it odd that you've never mentioned this once, and I find it odd that you're not aware that Fair Use is only relevant to the US side of this debate, if it even ends up being relevant at all, depending on how this proceeds as, again, the copyright holders and their intellectual property are based in Canada. I find it especially odd because you say you're more versed in 'English law' - but England and Wales also use Fair Dealing, albeit another variation, rather than Fair Use.
Again, I'm far from an expert in this area of law, and I can't tell anyone exactly what the future will hold, and I could be just as wrong as Rob has been in places, especially when it remains to be seen where or how a trial of a minor across borders would even proceed, but again, my real issue is that on social media especially, you've acted as if you're the expert, surrounded by idiots, and you have an obligation to 'educate' us.
You don't, and the last thing we need is a post that mixes the genuine law with wild speculation and hyperbole, to form a manipulative half-truth that presumes guilt.
1. I am not Rob. He happened to just pick up my article and retweet it.
2. The artwork I am mainly talking about isnt things that were supposed to be in the public domain or yet. Throughout the years many unreleased weapons artworks have been released through the mines. Honestly to my mistake I cannot remember the top of my head the prisma weapons that were once mined but never released. I think Prisma Orthos was one of them. Images that are not released officially by DE and pulled out of their systems still fall under the copyright of DE. and posting them is against the law. There are many examples of this happening. Practically every prime access and baro visit.
3.Quoting Einstein is completely different from the situation we are discussing and it is not a fair example. I think a closer example would be posting a piece of art you made on my facebook/ reddit without explicit permission. Even if the world knows you made it. It is still not fair use because you didnt want that picture to be seen in the first place nor did I get permisson.
4.I actually agree with the point why it took DE to act so long. They said the last straw was Umbra and that was a week or two ago so i think pursuing now is reasonable. Also Void has been contacted by DE Drew I think? To stop what he is doing but he refused. Taking Umbra's hack aside the statute of limitations is not a few months or 1 year. In Canada for serious offences it could be up to 20 years. Uk is defined by limitation act and ranges from 1 year to unlimited. USA depends but I think civil prosecution is 3 years as stated in the U.S. Code Title 17 Chapter 5 § 507. Secondly creating a suit takes time and resources, DE would potentially need to talk to their chinese parent company, wait for their response and then talk to their lawyers before they could do anything. Perhaps DE is not building a suit toward Void if he complies. A C&D isn't a lawsuit.
4. Yes the EULA thing is correct, it is not law by the agreement we signed. DE can do whatever the hell they want with their game since all we have is a license to use it. they could ban us both without reason if desired. I was not being manipulative. Manipulation means controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly: But then you said what I said was I quote 'mostly fine' so how I am being manipulative and also if it's down to personal interpretation how could I be misinformed and incorrect when all I did was copy and paste parts of the Eula.
5. I did say in the start and in the TLDR that data mining under fair use is 100 percent fine and I don't think tis fair that you purposely left it out, especially when it was the first line of my text. I Also stated Void is not directly responsible for the Umbra hack. But he is also not 100 percent innocent unless he can 100 percent prove the datamine did not in anyway assist the hackers in doing it. DE stated that they could prove his mines were involved.
Secondly I agree my wording could be improved when is said breach of contract what I meant was a breach of Eula. Which is also an contract. EULA's are not always legally binding. When you tick that box and if it states specifically in the EULA that by clicking you accept everything in it. It is. In ProCD v. Zeidenberg, the license was ruled enforceable because it was necessary for the customer to assent to the terms of the agreement by clicking on an "I Agree" button in order to install the software. In Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp., however, the licensee was able to download and install the software without first being required to review and positively assent to the terms of the agreement, and so the license was held to be unenforceable. Because Zeidenberg had no choice but to click Accept on the EULA before using the product, then it is a valid legal contract. However Specht was able to use the software without first agreeing to the EULA, and thus the EULA is not legally binding. I also found out that if a minor child clicks Accept on an EULA and then does something to violate the terms, the parent or legal guardian then takes full responsibility. Actually I was wrong...and I apologise. Void should not be the one in trouble or liable. But his parents should be.
6. Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. v. Connectix Corp. Is not relevant. Like I said several times within my argument which you purposefully or accidently missed. Data Mining stuff that is under fair use is 100 percent fine. I have stated that many times but what's not fine is released pics, scripts. etc. My written work is mine. If you copied my college essay without my permission I could sue you.
7. Again I am not talking about Void as the hacker but within the chain of causation
8. Actually I agree with this. EVen though my plan was not to incriminate him the lettering I use was certainly bad and potentially bias and I apologize. I should have used X instead since in context this was an example and not an accusation. Perhaps you misread the context of this and I am sorry.
9. You used the weakest example I made to talk about damages and also the one which was not in my main paragraph so it makes me feel that you cant argue about the script leak. I mainly asserted about War within. Let me break it down further and more simple. Script gets hacked. Player reads it, disappointed, CBF to return to the game = a potential loss in platinum sale. OR New prime access leaked. Players not hyped CBF to buy plat to trade for it with players. OR rich person interested in game- see script, no longer interested in buying plat to get good stuff or to level mastery faster. - can you say with 100 percent no one fits in these 3 categories? Even if there is only 3 people that had intended to do this, that's 3 sales. I could think of a few more but I don't think those are reasonable enough so I wont bother.
10. Yes. Speculative damage on a free to play game that most happen to spend money on.- just read number 9 again. Also I should have just used damages and not enormous, even i remember from law school those words are a no no. So thanks for reminding me and sorry for using them.
11. Ah. Alternative timeline huh? The get Volt to run very very fast and go into the speedforce and to the other timeline to find out! JKJK The damages could be calculated actually. Profits in this case doesn't matter because void glitch probably made 0 from this. Actual Damages however is also known as compensatory damages,consists of the amount of any demonstrable loss the owner suffered as a result of the infringing activity. This loss may be from lost sales, lost licensing revenue, or any other provable financial loss directly attributable to the infringement.
Federal law 17 U.S.C. § 504(b) "The copyright owner is entitled to recover the actual damages suffered by him or her as a result of the infringement, and any profits of the infringer that are attributable to the infringement and are not taken into account in computing the actual damages. In establishing the infringer’s profits, the copyright owner is required to present proof only of the infringer’s gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and the elements of profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work."So I guess what DE would do is show the difference in growth after the second dream to the War Within (which was leaked) and also Octavias anthem ( script not leaked) as well as the number of sales loss of a datamined prime and a non datamined prime taking away inflation, product growth, exposure. ETC ANy accountants here?
12. I explained above. He wont be personally liable since its not murder or battery something like that but his parents would be liable to pay the damages.- I agree this is BS but thats how it works. Stolen movies for example...Parents pay the damages to the studio.
13. DE has no plans to sue the kid. Its bad business unless hes secretly Bill Gates son in which I immediately change my argument and F*** DE! Yah you guys are wrong. But this is more of a warning. Its a C&D...They want him to stop because it has lead to damages in their revenue stream. I am sure if Voids actions was making them money this would be ignored. But potentially the games security was compromised...and well I am sorry but I think I agree with DE on this one. Vacuum tho? F*** that S#&$. I want it inert. I really do personally see it this time that DE was not at fault.
14. Again. Read above of calculating damages. But I do think my example wasnt very good. But I'll simplify it yet again. Less players login= less exposure= less potential new player= less growth + sales.
15. Sorry for sounding aggressive and arrogant. But again I am not Rob. My article merely got picked up by him and I think its quite unfair of you to make a assertion without proper research. I think your judgement may be clouded since it seems like you are not the biggest fan of his. And neither am I. But this time I really do stand with DE. They are trying to protect their baby and I think they are doing the right thing. Oh and concerning the fair dealing bit. It was a really good pull because I honestly forgot about it.
EDIT: By the way Spooky if you want to edit your post to make yourself not look like an idiot. Dont just change the first few sentences so it makes it look like you are talking SINISTERAN AND referencing ROB AKA @Operative_Shift Atleast change the whole damn thing. I even bolded a few you missed where you referenced me (Sinsteran) as Rob speaking in context to my post as his (Rob's) Post
-
15 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:
I do not believe that I am infringing on their copyright, but that is what the lawyers are paid to say.
Also, Digital Extremes did IP block me and remove all possible access I have in the game. It isn't like I play Warframe anymore anyway, but you only need the client to datamine. You don't need to be able to log-in.
Yeah, and they cannot force me to sign an NDA. It is my choice to do that. You need to know what you are talking about.If someone has art and story thats theirs and you post it in the open without permission. Its a breach, I know it seems dumb but thats how it is.
I did not know the information here and I apologize.
When I mean force I mean like an ultimatum. ie sign the C&D with the NDA or we take legal action. most people will the latter to avoid any more problems.
I also think you dont need to waste money on a lawyer. A C&D isn't a lawsuit. Technically we can still datamine, DE cant stop it if we only reveal info that falls into fair use - drop rates etc. But pics of the new primes, weapons, mods and any kind of new weapons, scripts is a no no
-
2 minutes ago, yingji said:
CANADIAN GAME COMPANY 'DISAPPEARS' 17 YEAR OLD AMERICAN COMPUTER PRODIGY
Can it get any worse at this point.
Except no one can imperically blame them or find out without one side breaking nda and the incident wont be this large. Most of us would just think he went to college.
-
1 minute ago, yingji said:
I'm sure if alternatively DE experiences an increase in hacks we will be the very last to hear about it.
Well we dont know that yet. But as a business and legal stand point this is the best move for them. I also think if they were so bad they'd force Void to sign an NDA so we wont even know any of this.We'd just think he disappeared.
-
6 minutes ago, yingji said:
Are you saying DE is too small to put up a Bug Bounty scheme? They sure are quick to throw legal threats at a foreign child for simply datamining so what are the options then for anyone who finds an actually serious technical problem? Go public and face the same treatment as Void_glitch or worse? I think you see the problem.
Actually yes. Void is face of data mining and he is technically breaching their copyright. Stopping him would lead to stopping others datamining. Thus reducing future exploits and hacks. Its is not only cheaper but way more efficient. Its a good move actually and they aren't doing anything shady.
Shady would be just to IP ban him and remove all possible access he has in the game. Not waste time and create this whole debacle. A 17 yr old cant exactly convince their parents to move or get the ISP to change their IP.
Actually DE being so bold is more damaging to them than it is helpful. They could have even thrown in an NDA but they didn't.
-
8 minutes ago, yingji said:
You do know how much the video gaming sector is worth right?
Yes but DE is worthless in the grand scheme of things. This isn't Blizzard its a tiny canadian indie company that makes less than some restaurants. If you made an ftp indie game would you really spend millions and millions to ensure 0 day vulnerabilities and even then its not 100 percent bug and exploit free? Not to mention the potential consequences of dealing with those hackers and blackmailing you etc.
-
1 minute ago, yingji said:
I can see this is not your area and since I don't feel like providing a free education on exploit pricing then you'll have to go with what you know.
DE does not have an 0 day exploit program as that would involve letter players play a build before it was released. Can you say this is their fault? They aren't exactly that important I mean this is a stupid game about space ninjas, not software to run a bank.
-
11 minutes ago, yingji said:
If you want to prove something then don't ask me to do the work for you.
Uh you were the one telling me to do it. I have no intention to. Because if Rebecca and DE had lied they would be very stupid to do so.
-
8 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:
This used to be the case years ago... before companies found the value of having issues exposed is much more cost-effective and for the exploiter to receive a form of payment than it is for the amount of damages it would cost to repair any malicious damage done by a user.
(Forgot to mention, zero-day vulnerabilities are never actually publicised until 30 days after informing the company about the exploit), hence pre-emptive warning.
Actually some cases fought in court right now are using precedent from the 1800's so 2003 isn't that far back in relation to law. and precedent don't get replaced very often
-
1 minute ago, yingji said:
A few current Bug Bounty programs don't tell a fraction of the whole story. If you want to believe in the world you describe then that's your choice
By typing bug report into google and limiting it to the last 24 hrs theres 176,000 entries. I will take half way. That doesn't seem like a few programs.
-
10 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:
This still does not change the fact that the images are not under patent. Example of the "law" is in reference to the right to privacy, doesn't relate to your original point. (Unless your referring to a user's own copyright, which differs from a company)
This still does not change the fact that he is not responsible.If your perception on this were true then you can say goodbye to basically every single human commodity in existence - including the internet. It is the responsibility of the individual who exploited the code - now things would be different if void_glitch did exploit the code, he did not therefore he is not liable for what happens once he exposes the vulnerability. Your example is proving my point - it is not void_glitch's responsibility.
Proving my point yet again, it is the responsibility of the bearer, not the creator. It is the murderer's fault, not the creator's.
Actually no, you are comparing a complex labyrinth of an operating system which has many, many layers of features and different binary components to a game - entirely 2 different environments - not comparable.
But.. you are indirectly stating that it could cause damages either way, so therefore you have effectively neutralised your first argument. (Being he is solely liable, which isn't true for damages).
Actually art can be copyrighted. Are you saying that Oberon prime's design is not theirs?
Again. Causation. Understand it first.
My point was to disregard your car claim. Not directly correlated to this case.
Name 1 game or software with 0 bugs ever.
The 3rd part I could be clearer actually I agree. He could have caused both in damages and income to DE. Therefore my point still stands. if you want I will name the good he has done through data mining too.
-
Just now, yingji said:
Prove it.
I mean, you state it like it's a fact. So of course you can prove it immediately.
Go ahead.
We are watching.
In the original release in reddit prior to the dev workshop that Rebecca had stated it and submitted they have proof. But I doubt I can just ask for it. You could try and ask her to see if DE would release such confidential information to you.
-
3 minutes ago, Cubbage said:
He only heard about this incident after the fact, what are you even trying to argue here?
He heard that it happened after the fact is not a valid defence. HE DID NOT HACK UMBRA OF PRIMED STREAMLINED PERSONALLY- WE KNOW!
But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. So yes he is technically responsible.
-
4 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:
Actually, the main issue was in regard to the Excalibur Prime and Primed Streamline scandals - two events that I was not involved in - yet I am being targeted for. I would recommend reading @(PS4)decogold's comment.
Like I stated before you did not directly cause the exploits to happen. But can you say with 100 percent confidence and prove that your mines had no relation to umbra and primed streamline in its entirety. Not even a small mention or anything.
-
16 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:
Note: This does not apply for US law. The DMCA for the USA overrides all EULA contracts which states that "not all parts of a patent are actually patented". In simpler terms, those singular images are not part of the patent which DE possess for Warframe - he has every right to post those images.
This is the fall-of-line argument. If this was true, then we may aswell stop selling cars in the street as they have the capability to inflict damage on another human being - does this mean the company in question is responsible? Of course not. Void_glitch is not in the wrong for exposing these issues - he did not take advantage of the exploit only exposed it. He is not in the wrong, it is not his responsibility what other users do with this information. A good reference would be zero-day vulnerability exploiters - they expose and publicise vulnerabilities in software/a network to draw publicity.
Do you want to know who is in the wrong? Digital Extremes themselves - it is their fault that these exploits were in the game, not void_glitch's fault. Having them publicised does not mean he is wrong either, one way or another those exploits were going to be found - DE themselves are at fault here for having these exploits in the game.
Please be aware that US law overrides any sort of EULA contract between a user and a company, there's a reason laws exist in the first place.
That does not mean void_glitch is at fault either - QA testing should have been put in place to find these exploits in the first place, this "more development time" argument is a fallacy, it could have been prevented if it was discovered earlier, developers spend extra time fixing issues anyways, again it is not void_glitch's fault that these exploits exist so he is not liable for any "damage liabilities".
This argument is entirely subjective - if the leaked audio/scripts/textures in question are good then it will build up hype amongst the playerbase who are eager to enjoy it for themselves, hence if it isn't so good any hype will be extinguished. Won't comment on the other sentences, simply subjective conclusions which can be different on a case by case basis.
1.Yes EULA is not the literal law of the land. But somethings dont have to be in the EULA to be copyrighted. Scripts and art are under copyright. if you drew a picture right now and I post it on the internet. I am infringing your rights.
2. He did not do it personally. But if what he did was still within the chain of causation, he is also (not solely) responsible. Also your example is not a good one. Lets take Tesla. Their code was mined leading to a 3rd party to hack it and kill people with it. It is not Tesla's legal liability. It is impossible to make something without fault, especially programs,
3. It is physically impossible to make code or anything infact that could NOT be exploited. A kitchen knife is made to cut meat. Someone uses it to kill. whose fault is it?
4. If QA testing to could rid all bugs of a game or software then they must be godly. So the wanncry thing that happened recently? microsoft's fault? or the hackers
5. Exactly subjective! But due to it not being wanted to be seen as it was not ready it could cause potential damages
-
Just now, SicSlaver said:
Thanks for the enlightening post, sinisteran. I'm not a redditor and hardly involve myself with social media, so I have no idea why your post was removed. Maybe the title of it was too extreme? And whether or not what DE has done is wrong or not is subjective in this case. Legally, they are entitled to and have the right to stop Void_Glitch's actions, but not everything is clear for me at the moment. Are the claims against Void_Glitch really justified; that his datamining lead to the hacks, leaks, and potential scamming?
However, I do know that the information the Warframe wikia provides are invaluable and can be used to confirm the authenticity of DE's statements. For me, it's not about whether or not DE is in the right to legally pull this off, but whether their actions are truly for the benefit and well-being of their customers/playerbase. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.
Yes I agree 100 percent.
But The title is true. They didn't do anything wrong. What did they do wrong? Its their game in the end of the day. I admit before the mines the drop rates were abysmal but that was 2013 when the game was first out and this was their first rodeo.
DE needs to learn to make things transparent enough so we arent forced to mine things. The web pages is a good start. Also data mining isnt illegal if you are under fair use they aren't banning people from doing that. Void glitch posted everything including art and scripts. That was the main issue.
DE also needs to stop being pushed around while the community directors just tanks everything. Meg and Reb don't have law degrees. Dont expect what they say to be crafted in perfection. Picking their words apart for our advantage. If reb didn't simplify what the legal team said to the best of her ability and just posted whatever the lawyers said about 1 percent of the community would get it.
-
"Unpopular opinion digital-extremes did nothing wrong concerning the void_gltich incident"
Before I begin I would like to say I only have a degree in english law. So my comments may be incorrect in relation to the US and Canada legal systems.
Firstly Data Mining is part of fair use in the case of drop rates and stuff like that. In Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc the judges submitted that 'purposes of substantive research, including data mining and text mining in new areas' is part of fair use, so in relation to this Void_glitch did nothing wrong.
However and this is the interesting part. What Void_glitch did breached the parameters of fair use and going into infringement of copyright. The Art- Prime access, Prisma stuff, Primed streamline. Is the intellectual property of Digital extremes and in extension to Leyou the parent. And posting such images are a breach. DE has in their EULA that all images of/ in the game are subject to copyright to ensure their protection. Therefore posting these mined images beforehand is a breach of their copyright. This is explicitly stated in section 3B
b. All rights and title in and to the Software, the Game, the Service, the Site, your Account and all content included therein (including, without limitation, Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, storylines, dialogue, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual works, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Digital Extremes or its licensors. The Software may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement. The Software and the Game and all content therein are protected by Canada and the United States and other international intellectual property laws. Digital Extremes and its licensors reserve all rights in connection with the Software and the Game, including, without limitation, the exclusive right to create derivative works there from, and you agree that you will not create any work of authorship based on the Game except as expressly permitted by Digital Extremes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in your Account, and you acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Digital Extremes.
Secondly. Reverse engineering of computer software is a breach of contract. The Umbra and the Primed streamline incident may not be a hack by Void_glitch but his datamine contributed to it happening. Therefore Void_glitche's actions may be a part of the chain of causation that lead to the hacks. Legal causation is expressed through 'foreseeability' and Void_gltiches actions of datamining could be taken into account into how Umbra was hacked into the game.
Void_glitch will not be liable if : A: Despite his datamine Umbra was going to be hacked anyway and/or B: Umbra/ streamline was hacked completely without relation to his data mining.
Legality aside Digital extremes has in their Jan 2013 EULA specifically in section 2B that 'reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise derive source code or game data from the Software or reduce the Software to a human-readable form, except to the extent that such actions are expressly permitted by applicable law' and due to Void_glitche's contributions leading to the hacks he has not only broken section 2B but also 2H and 2I
2h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;
2i. modify, or allow or cause to be modified, any files that are a part of the Software in any way not expressly authorized by Digital Extremes in writing in each instance;
Finally the third and probably the most obvious breach of IP is the unreleased War within scripts. It is obvious that posting someone else's script/ story is a breach of copyright, whether that book/text be in the public domain or not. Copyright infringement is using someone else's creative work without explicit permission it could be both texts and art and Void_glitch did both multiply times. Fair use only subjugates to a small amount of someone elses work. So if he only copied a quote or two or did a TLDR he would be fine. But he did not.
His actions potentially did immeasurable damage to Digital extremes ltd, forcing rewrites which lead to extended development time, overtime of the workers and the results of the final product being tarnished. This also happened with the Second dream, however Digital extremes turned a blind eye due to it being a success anyway. However with the War Within, the reception was not as great. This could be partially blamed by the Devs hyping it up and the trailers. But it could not be imperatively stated that the data mines did not cause any damages.
To be honest DE's legal team has been lean on Void_glitch. It is fairly certain that they have all the bullets in the chamber needed to ruin and his family and sue them for damages due to him being a minor, but instead wasted time and effort to only send a warning letter. Not knowing the law is no excuse to breaking it [ignorantia legis neminem excusat] in fact I believe this is stated directly in Canada's criminal code. Void_gltich has caused irreparable damage to Digital Extremes and its Parent through the datamines. I would summarise without detail as many as I can below.
Data Mining leading to showing potential vulnerability leading to hacks.
Data Mining to leading to script changes and potentially re-recordings.
Data Mining revealing to be released Baro/Prime images leading to lowered platinum sale income.
Data Mining releasing unfinished art/specs/abilities leading to damage to platinum sales due unfinished items being unsatisfactory to playerbase.
Data Mining causing the hype of quests/baro to be diminished leading to lowered new players, daily logins, platinum sale and exposure.
Sorry that this isn't all that well written as it is 5AM in the morning and I will make sure no errors in the law once I have some rest.
Forgot a TLDR. so here it is: Datamining things that falls under fair use is not wrong. But also posting images, scripts or unreleased stuff is a violation of copyright.
@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Danielle @[DE]Mumbles Feel free to comment or even correct me if what I stated was incorrect. I will remove it or change if necessary.
Edit: I have tried to put this on the reddit as well, however it is instantly removed / made invisible to new page without warning, reason or message by the mods. Really shows the potential biases in this incident
Edit:2 I have made the same post on reddit however it was instantly removed as spam and accusation even though I made valid and factual arguments. So it seems like reddit and its mods are not as innocent and neutral as it seems. Evidence in showing why post was removed
-
3 hours ago, --WAYLANDER-- said:
WHEN WE HAVE CHROMA DELUXE SKIN ????????
The Skin is done. Still making the greatsword skin. Should be out in a few weeks
-
This is gonna make me sound like such a fan boy but here it goes. This is what makes DE great. They change things and admits mistakes then fixes it with the best of their ablity (EXCEPT HEMA THT S#&$ IS CRAZY). The event was released on 5:45 PM their local time. Do people honestly expect them to stay in at work to fix it after hours or all night? Do youi think they live in the office and would fix things instantly. BE REALISTIC. And yet the following morning they read the concerns and are instantly rectifying it. This is a game, not a written piece of text, you cant just tipex it and fix it instantly. So stop complaining and just thank them once in a while.
Rant over
Edit: I forgot to mention that it is impossible for them to predict clan activities. They have a general number but cannot predict how many would come back for the clan event. Just like they cant predict how many people will come back or join to do the quests. so an initial 50 percent prediction rate is purely acceptable. although to be fair they did not consider solo clans to the best of their ability.
So thanks @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan for tanking the inconsiderate wraith of our community once again.
-
@[DE]Megan THANKS SPACE AUNT!
WTB Euphone prime riven with status chance
in Trading Post
Posted
WTB Euphona prime riven with status chance higher than 53 percent. Preferably with crit/crit damage and a 3rd which increases dmg