[Dry Dock - or: did you people even tested this?]

Damn... warframe players are really spoiled. 

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

On 2019-11-20 at 11:01 AM, Andele3025 said:

Quote

And Yeah, having multiple status procs "per hit" would solve alot actually. Because what i'm suggesting is to let MELEE weapons have multi-status procs. That means one swing by itself could have C.O. proc multiple times. 

No it wouldnt. Base damage is still base damage. This does mean people using grineer bane mods.

Yeah... and primed pressure point gives 165% base damage, yet you and other people haven't called it useless. Meanwhile C.O. would do 360-600% more damage, from a single hit with "multi-procs" 

Yeah, base damage is still *DAMAGE* which is something you seem to be forgetting. it's as if you think that somehow damage is bad, just because it gets a "base damage" modifier. Condition Overload was overpowered at the end of the equation. You KNOW this. It would still be overpowered if it didn't also multiply within itself... YOU ALSO KNOW THIS. 

Quit whining and crying, and saying B.S. or smudging the truth about something that was overpowered. You're acting as if C.O. was bad, when it's clearly better than Primed Pressure Point, EVEN WITHOUT multi-procs.  It's still strong AF, so stop complaining about something that isn't broken, nor malfunctioning. 

But hey sure, if you want to complain about multiprocs then that's fine, feel free to reject something that would've been better for you. You don't need em anyway, and I don't really care tbh. I was just trying to provide alternate ideas *shrug*

On 2019-11-20 at 11:01 AM, Andele3025 said:

Quote

And even if they also applied multi-status procs for guns, so what? It doesn't mean that it's removing melee from being useful. Melee STILL does more damage than primary weapons, as it is. 

No it doesnt.

Half of the melee weapons can  hit above 100-300k damage, without even using Condition Overload.... And they also hit a wide arc of enemies. 

Only snipers, or a few shotguns can approach much damage. Though they only get a few meters of punchthrough, *in a straight line*. 

Yes, melee does more damage than "guns". It's just that enemies are so squishy, that guns don't need to hit that hard to kill large quantities of mobs. In other words, we don't really even need C.O. to kill mobs.

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

On 2019-11-17 at 1:41 PM, Andele3025 said:

CO wasnt op because of its calculation, but because of it multiplying itself/exponentially scaling like armor does for EHP. Without self-scaling it would have been, while strong, reasonable. Multi status per hit wouldnt solve anything other than make guns even better.

"CO wasnt op because of its calculation, but because of it multiplying itself/exponentially" 

Yes, and multiplying itself exponentially was ALSO part of its calculation. So what you're saying is contradicting itself.

 

And Yeah, having multiple status procs "per hit" would solve alot actually. Because what i'm suggesting is to let MELEE weapons have multi-status procs. That means one swing by itself could have C.O. proc multiple times. 

And even if they also applied multi-status procs for guns, so what? It doesn't mean that it's removing melee from being useful. Melee STILL does more damage than primary weapons, as it is. 

 

On 2019-11-17 at 1:41 PM, Andele3025 said:

On 2019-11-17 at 11:56 AM, Dragazer said:

Sacrificial steel is not a "non-choice".

It is, because its always worse than Blood Rush on normal builds thus will never be used on them and is only worth the slot on initial combo counter builds which dont need crit help.

You know crit mods were buffed, right? If you think it's a non-choice, then maybe you haven't read the stats yet. Sacrificial pressure makes Heavy attack builds more viable, and it makes blood rush require less stacks to reach red crits, for combo builds. In fact, sacrificial steel is essentially 4-5 stacks of blood rush. There's definitely an argument for using it, when it essentially guarantees that you'll ALWAYS be getting a crit. 

 

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Proccing status multiple times with over 100% proc chance and counting it for CO is a good idea IMO ("stealth" status procs on targets otherwise immune to status is also a good idea). All you need is just a sensible cap for CO comparable to Crit or Heavy Strike build DPS after factoring in projected proc effects, and some mutual exclusions between mods (ie, CO should be incompatible with crit mods to prevent hybrid feedbacks).

I was thinking more along the lines an extra weapon stat (like the followthrough stat) that allows weapons to proc multiple status effects, beyond the first proc.

• Most weapons would have a "1" for "only one status proc chance, per hit. Meanwhile high MR weapons, or weapons designed around status effects, could have between "1.2 - 3, proc chances, per hit.  4 or greater, on rare and very specialized weapon types (or with a riven). This could also be made into new mods, and new nightmare and/or corrupted mods. 

Otherwise i'd imagine an extra status proc for every 35-50% proc chance, might be more practical than an extra proc chance above 100% status--like orange crits. Because there aren't many weapons that can build above 100% status chance, without sacrificing more damage/practicality than CO would give (unless there's a crazy riven involved). There's also the point that status procs don't offer the same type of damage magnification, as orange or red crits. So it wouldn't be too drastic to give an extra proc chance for every 35-50%. Fire and slash would get diminishing returns, since this is mostly meant for proccing DIFFERENT status effects. So ideally the theorized "additional status proc chance" would cycle through other status effects first, before considering another slash or fire proc.  (or simply ignore existing status effects, and only apply new/ non-existing status effects).

 

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

I have a suggestion for melee weps regarding C.O. :

Allow *status weapons* to proc status chance multiple times, per single strike. 

I'm not really sure what would be a balanced way to do this, and I can't really provide the math or odds for the chance of each new status proc happening (Per single strike). However, this might help the complaint that people have about C.O.

 

I watched both Xandy Pants' and Brozime's video on C.O. and I know one thing for certain... They're both right and wrong about their contrasting arguments. . 

Brozime's main argument is that not every melee attack/weapon can benefit well from C.O. because it'll only proc one status at a time, per strike. He seems to base his argument on the bias of killing enemies with 1-2 hits. The only validity for his argument that "Condition Overload Sucks" is that  weapons only proc one status at a time. 

Xandy pants' argument is that it's better than Primed Pressure Point, for non "heavy attack" builds. He even demonstrated how effective the weapon can be at killing high level enemies, with only C.O. and without using outside sources for status procs--instead of just talking about math, unlike brozime, who only discussed math. However, it does still take quite a bit of buildup which is something that can get you killed during gameplay--which does support brozime's argument, because you do zero damage when dead. 

So I thought that a way to meet in the middle without making C.O. insanely OP again (or completely mandatory for any melee build) is just to let "status themed" weapons proc multiple status types within a single hit. 

This could be a separate weapon stat, and you could even make a new mod around it to help further enhance status builds. Or it could also be used to diversify other builds.

 

P.S. I'm NOT talking about a melee equivalent to multishot

[(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback]

Ember Feedback: The new rework is really fun, but I find myself just mainly spamming 3 & 4--and toggling her 2 every 20-30s, since her fireblast isn't very effective at heat mitigation.

I never use her fireball atm--even though the combo effect is cool, it's still not an improvement for energy/damage than just using 3 and 4 or her weapon. Using fireblast(3) when immolation is active, is seriously dangerous for my energy unless i'm using a max efficiency build, with flow, and with her augment for energy. Her 3 costs too much energy, to be used as an effective method to control her heat gauge. 

Suggestions: 

Give fireball it's napalm effect back, when it's fully charged--and give napalm a longer duration with higher immolation. Also lower the energy cost of fireball, based on her immolation gauge. This would make it more useful and versatile, than just a spam ability. It also allows us more breathing room to use it, since ember is so energy hungry. It's fine if it consumes some heat for these bonuses, since inferno is more than enough to build heat for immolation. 

Lower Fireblast's base energy cost  (50-60 would be a bit more comfortable, without being too cheap) 

 

Thank you for reading this 🙂

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Cap's Shield is an oddity being Vibranium which likely causes it to produce more force than any typical kinetic impact. When two solid objects collide there is a loss of kinetic energy through heat, vibration friction and sound. Vibranium seems to ignore all of this by being able to transfer, store and deflect 100% kinetic energy. So besides the well pointed out video where surface area matters quite a bit there's also 0 loss of force on impact with Cap's shield.

Using Shields as weapons is perfectly viable more than most RPGs give credit as I mentioned. The rim of a shield, pinning a weapon, maneuvering your opponent or even just spikes. In fact against those high end Armored opponents a shield bash to the head would produce fairly similar effect as a Sword to the head since Armor on that level is nearly impenetrable to swords. Lucent Hammer, Bec de Corbin, Warhammer, ect were used for a reason. Concussive damage works against Armored opponents generally to batter them or knock them unconscious to the point a more lethal approach can be made like the spike end up those weapons, crows beak or a Rondel. The Rondel in particular was actually used as a sign of force to persuade the battered opponent to surrender or die.

A shield bash upside the head is hardly going to produce the effect of a mace upside the head but if it's in your hand; might as well make full use of it.

EDIT: As follow up to the video you posted. What Cap is using is pretty much what I mentioned. More of an Armored Katar.

Yeah but vibranium absorbs energy... right? So it's actually the reverse (except for the black panther suit, which they created to release the stored energy). Either way, i'm sure there's some alloy that could also be of use in a science-fiction game. 

and we already have a mod that works similarly to cap's shield. We just need to be able to use something similar with actual shields. 

And we already have shield designs that are similar to what i'm talking about. Something similar to this, could easily double as another fist-type/brawler weapon. The "Twin Aegis"

 

 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

5 hours ago, Askorti said:

You didn't clarify the per square inch part. In which case, shield bash wouldn't have more energy than a bullet either. Also, a shield bash against an armored person would do about as much as a punch, nothing, other than ruin their balance. A shield is not a viable offensive weapon, period.

Also, it's not a matter of "don't like, don't use it" as introducing a new "weapon" type would require development time. Time that could be used on something else. So if DE decided to go with it, it would affect me negatively. That's why I don't like this (IMO) stupid idea.

You're forgetting about the *edge* of the shield. That's where most of the damage comes from, along with its mass--Like Shad, from Shadiversity explains in the video I posted above

And like this clip illustrates: 

 

But I appreciate your honesty for saying that you wouldn't want it because you don't like it/think it's stupid, and would rather that DE spend their development time on other things lol.

DE has an internal goal of releasing new weapons/warframes every 3 months. They have to make new weapons regardless of what else they're working on. We already have plenty of weapons to pick from, so I really doubt you'll personally be negatively affected/hurt by them designing this "stupid idea" (in your opinion) at some point in the future. 

 

Besides, if we can hurl around very impractical & ineffective Giant swords, and fire literall cannons from the hip in this SCIENCE FICTION game as biomechanical, super space ninjas with void magic.... I think we can easily use a shield as a weapon. 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

Here's a couple counterpoint videos though.

Top video explains how shields can be used as weapons. The bottom video explains why/how dual wielding shields wouldn't be optimal (mostly because of their size... full-size shields are too big to use effectively as a weapon, even less to dual-wield them). 

 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

41 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Don't think that was Myth Busters. Pretty sure it was Deadliest Warrior.

And yes, shields are most often seen as a pure Defensive weapon but can be used offensively. It's something that annoys me in a lot of RPGs. However Dual Wielding a shield would turn into more of an Armored Katar type weapon than two actual shields. It just comes down to size. Two shields limits your striking capacity too much not to mention visibility. It would probably be less defensive to use two shields over one shield and a 1h weapon.

Roman Gladiators had a somewhat similar weapon called a Scissor but with Armor involved weapons like this didn't really have much value since when it came down to good Armor knights and such didn't actually bother to use shields; they were the shields. None or Light armored combatants are the ones who use shields.

From a sci-fi perspective I supposed anything goes. You could have two shields that expand and contract when needed. Who knows. It's Sci-fi.

You're right, I appreciate the correction. That explains why I couldn't find the clip. 

And yeah I do agree, that's why I said they would get decreased range & slow speed. However there are ways to design shields around using them as offensive weapons, though yes they would also lose some defensive capabilities. To be honest, the reason I'm suggesting this is because our current shields are more like bucklers and small round shields, instead of actual full-sized shields. ... which doesn't say that much about their defensive capabilities either) Dual-wielding full-sized shields is definitely HUGELY impractical.

Again, an easy example is Cap America, in Avengers: Infinity war.  Edit: His shields were light & small enough to double as fist weapons.

 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

42 minutes ago, Askorti said:

Bruh, I know Warframe and realism are as far apart as you can get, but please, stop, because this is pure nonsense. A punch to the face has more force than a bullet too, doesn't make it more effective.

That's not true. A bullet has more force than a punch, per square inch. Not to mention that a punch to the face can't make a hole through a person, the same way that a 7.62mm round can. 

A shield could easily tear through flesh, unlike a normal person's punch. Sure a super-space-biomechanical ninja could probably knock a head off a person, but that still means they would do more damage with a shield. 

But hey if you think it's a stupid weapon/idea, you don't have to use it lol. I'm sure there are many other players who might find it curious, and fun to try something new. 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

You mean this, right? After all... its "dual shield" you're suggesting and not "reverting blocking angle back to 180 degrees", right?

 

... I'm just asking because its giving off the feeling that you're using a "weapon" suggestion (I'm sorry, but I don't see Dual Shields as a weapon. I see it as an increased defense) as a subterfuge to request a reversion to the old 180 blocking angle, pre-"Melee Phase 1".

 

.... And those 140 degree block angle are quite generous too. I would've suggested 115 blocking angle.

uh... No, I meant what I originally said. For regular shields, I just posted a suggestion on the "melee stats feedback" thread, asking them to increase their base angle to 90 degrees (110 with a blocking mod).

Only Tower Shields would have something crazy like 140 degrees. 

 

Dual shields can easily be a weapon... just look at captain america in "Avengers: Infinity War. It's also been a concept in D&D. Not to mention that Myth Busters "Deadliest warrior" did an episode measuring how much damage would a "spartan shield bash" really do, and its measured force was higher than a bullet shot. 

Yes they can be weapons, the idea is actually pretty old. Dual shields would just have impractically short range (less than your fist) unless you throw them. 

[Weapon idea: Dual Shields, as alternate fist weapons.]

Disclaimer Note: The main reason I'm bringing this up, is because shields in warframe are more like bucklers, or small round shields. No, I don't think that dual-wielding full-sized shields would be practical. Modified "strapped on" bucklers/small shields, could be used as fist-weapons though. 

Would be awesome to have a "dual shield" weapon options, for players who want to attempt tanking with the mod that taunts while you block (Guardian Derision) .

 

A generic starter "Dual-Shield" could start with a 0.9 weapon speed, 120-180 degree block angle (maybe 180 is too much, i'm just thinking that it's two shields), 24% crit chance, 2.8 crit multiplier, 1.5-1.8m range,

Combo/stance attacks could have a mixture of throwable shield attacks (reduces the block angle), charge/bullrush combo for gap-closing, and a mixture of grapples & punches. Have it gain bonus damage on heavy attacks. 

Edit: Alternate "dual shield" designs can have increased reach & attack speeds, for less blocking angles and less critical & heavy damage. 

 

Scythes were originally not meant for war, and were actually EXTREMELY impractical weapons (which is why they evolved into polearms)... And yet most people now hype them up, and think scythes are badass. Meanwhile shields WERE meant for combat, and were regularly used as an offhand attack. 

If the shields are small & light enough, they can basically be used as alternative "fist weapon" options. Here's an illustration to show what that would look like. 

Here's how it looks in dark souls (though i'll admit, it's more of a meme)

 

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

22 hours ago, MrMetaldong said:

~~snip~~

Cute Gif

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

I'm really sorry that this is mostly just complaints/negative feedback. I did really enjoy the new melee stance changes. I do really like the new general "feel" of melee, but there are a few things that still make things a bit difficult to make the most out of melee. 

1. It would be great if Sword & shields had their base blocking angle upped to 90 degrees. Then with the block mod, it would go up to 110.
   • I know this isn't comparable to IRL (unless you're using a tower shield, like romans) but it's more practical in a game where enemies surround you from every direction... like warframe. 
2. Heavy attacks cost too much "combo" even when maxing out "combo efficiency" 
   • Yes, the combo is much faster to build now, but that still doesn't matter when you have to kill hordes of enemies, and you need a x8-12 multiplier for any "decent" amount of damage from a heavy attack. Otherwise they're too slow/inefficient to use frequently, since they don't do much more damage than a regular attack. 
3. Crit builds don't benefit at all from using ANY heavy attacks. Using heavy attacks (even with efficiency) kills the efficiency & damage of crit builds, not to mention that it's much slower and less damage than just continuing to wail on enemies while getting red crits. 

[Non-Bird, Ember Deluxe]

Could we... get an Ember deluxe skin, that doesn't make her look like a bird?

 

Spicy please? :D

[(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback]

Ember review:  Thank you for working on ember's rework, and trying to make her more effective and fun to play. Please consider the following suggestions, and feedback. 

 

TLDR (Read the bold): So Ember's rework concept was a cool idea... Her general concept is AWESOME, and is definitely a step in the right direction for improvement... but.. I honestly didn't have fun playing her... it was more of a chore, than a game. After putting several forma into her, and changing her builds several times, she still She feels forced to play atm.

First, I want to highlight that most of the issues I had with ember's rework would be solved if you increased her base energy, and if immolation also granted efficiency along with DR via her heat gauge increase. She also needs an increase to the base range, and speed of fireblast (why is fireblast's "shockwave" so slow?). I've tried a high efficiency build, a high duration build, and a hybrid between the two (had to ditch power strength), used her augments, used no augments. I was also using dethcube with energy generator, and i also tried using Rage (had to use adaptation & healing flame, to not die). I also tried running with an increased range build, for better CC, but that wasn't effective since meteor didn't leave behind a lingering CC effect. It only spread on enemies that are alive. With all of these builds, she still had too much of a heat/energy management issue.

I also want to point out that many of her abilities feel like they're more geared for mid-range, but while you did give her DR... you guys didn't give her any movement skills/buffs, or effective CC. Meteor is very effective, but there's a pretty short range cap on it considering what it is... and meteor doesn't leave lingering flames (only on live enemies). Fireblast also  and a pretty short range, and moves incredibly slow... "World on Fire" had a similar mid-range, but it also increased her movement speed (if i'm not mistaken) so we were able to use it effectively. 

So you guys made a slow-moving, mid-range tank, with the capacity for heavy firepower... but a huge ass energy and mod cost. She's basically a literal military tank, but a little less tanky. 

Unfortunately she's simply too mod hungry, and too energy hungry, and doesn't have the capability to efficiently or effectively manage her heat in a way that's intuitive to manage. Turning off and on her immolation, isn't a good strategy either, because that simply throws out her damage reduction. 

I will explain further as you read. 

 

1) Fireball's Combo mechanic was awesome, but it still costs a lot of energy to cast repeatedly for  a good damage increase (and the combo window is pretty small). It also doesn't do enough damage, even if the cost was lowered. 

Fireball Suggestion: 

• Up the damage a bit, and lower the energy cost a bit. Just a smidgeon should start showing some benefit. (3-5 less energy, and 25-100 more damage) 
• It would also be great, if we got its old "napalm" effect back, when the fireball is charged... but with a longer duration. Then we would have another reason to use fireball over meteor sometimes. 

2) Managing her "heat gauge" is a huge pain in the ass. Having to turn it off, and turn it on, solely for the sake of energy control, is a huge pain in the ass and it affects her survivalbility... might as well just use adaptation, and ignore her second altogether.... except we can't, because the rest of her kit depends on her heat gauge being full, for the sake of her abilities being effective. 

•    Ok then why make it a huge ass energy drain that we can barely manage, if we need our gauge to be maxed (or nearly maxed) to have an effective kit? 
• Oh, and I still need to use adaptation along with her heat gauge, for ember to be tanky, on top of her healing augment "healing flames" and vitality/sacrificial vitality. That's 3 mods I still need to use, on top of having DR... She would still benefit from improved CC since Fireblast isn't that effective at CC because it's rather short, slow, and doesn't get much benefit from stretch alone. 
• Fireblast's augment is a bit useless since it's only 1/2 of her DR, and she can't keep her DR steady since she constantly has to be managing her heat gauge or turning off/on immolation. 
• Turning off/on damage reduction as a mechanic/concept IS NOT FUN, or enjoyable at all (especially when we barely have any energy left because of its heavy toll). This is our means for survival, NOT our "super sayan" mode. IF we were ONLY gaining power strength boost from this, THEN yes turning it on/off wouldn't be such a big deal. But it's seriously stressful to be thinking "oh SHEET; now I have to turn it off, or i'm dead...but I might also die if I turn this off"

Immolation suggestion: 

1. Immolation needs to stop "passively" increasing on its own. Especially when her only other skill to control the gauge costs 75 energy, and we need to spam it as the heat gauge keeps wildly increasing out of nowhere.
2.  Letting her "overheat" mode give her increased efficiency, would literally solve all her other energy issues. 
3. Allow more skills to lower heat. Like her ult... maybe let us charge her ult, to use some of our heat to supercharge its damage. Like mini nukes. 
4. Give her immolation a "lingering DR" effect for 5s after it's turned off (even if she's energy exhausted, or the player turns it off on their own). This would make the "turn off" a bit more seamless and remove the stressful feeling of "impending doom" from losing immolation

Alternative suggestion for Immolation: 

1. Make the gauge scale up from 100-300. It would grant a multiplicative 0.1%-0.4% power strength, per temp degree (Max of 50% power Str at 300 degrees). Have all her skills build up her heat gauge when tapped, but use/release heat when "held/charged"
   • 0-99 heat, 10% max power str (First stage): Ember gains slow/passive energy regen below 100 degrees. Heat gauge slowly increases passively up until 100 (Ember loses passive energy gain once the gauge reaches 100).
     • Temp grants her 0.1% power str per "heat" degree (max 10% power str during first stage)
   • 100-199 heat, 30% max power str (Second Stage): Ember loses the energy regen above 100, but gains 25% energy efficiency, and 0-50% DR. The gauge no longer passively increases from 100-199. 
     • Temp bonus grants her 0.2% power str per "heat" degree (max 30% power str, during second stage ).
   • 200-300 Heat, 50% max power str (Third Stage): Overheat mode starts above 200 heat. She gains 50-90% DR and an additional 25% energy efficiency, but heat gauge starts to decrease on its own (stopping at 199). During overheat mode, her skills unlock additional perks/benefits when "held/charged" but the *heat* cost is increased by 25-50%. 
     • Gains 0.4% power str per "heat" degree (Max total of 50% Power Str increase, at 300 degrees)
     • Ember starts losing heat faster, the more heat she acquires... because things around her are "cold" relative to her temperature, so heat loss/transfer becomes greater
       •  >275 heat, ember can start to lose energy & health. She gains 95% DR, but that doesn't affect her health loss. (if you're really attached to penalizing & energy costs)
2. Possibly make this her passive, and give her another skill for her 2nd ability. Another ability that helps decrease her heat, is fun to spam, and doesn't cost 75 energy... Like maybe a TEAM BUFF? Or a new & creative skill?

3) Fireblast's armor strip is incredibly effective when her heat gauge is maxed out, which is awesome... but it's also her only skill that decreases the heat gauge, and it costs 75 energy for a single use...this alone is a really big design flaw. 

• The travel distance of the shockwave is also short, and incredibly slow... which makes it hard to heal with her augment. 

Fireblast suggestion:  Please INCREASE THE TRAVEL SPEED, and max range of the shockwave.... at *least* the travel speed.

2nd Fireblast suggestion (If you didn't apply any of the Immolation suggestions): Lower the cost to 35 energy.

• Seriously, Ash's shuriken cost WAY less, also do damage, apply slash damage, and also hit multiple enemies.... so I don't understand the logic behind 75 energy, and a REALLY SLOW travel time. 

4) Meteor is her most fun ability to use. It's cheap, spammable, fast, covers a wide area, and doesn't really require us to use immolation... it gives the best results for the lowest cost of energy... This gives no reason to cast fireball anymore. We didn't really need another press-4-to-win ability though.... as f-ing awesome as it is. 

Meteor's augment on the other hand, isn't very effective at generating energy motes reliably.  Especially when you have to compete with other tenno for kills. 

 

Overall, thank you very much for working on Ember's rework again. I hope you continue to make improvements to her, so she's effective but feels less forced to play. 

Thank you also for taking the time to read my review, I really appreciate your time, patience, and efforts. 

 

 

[Daily Rewards: Saving Plat Discounts]

I've periodically gotten a lot of 50% platinum discounts, many of which I didn't use because I didn't want to buy plat at the time (And mostly because it isn't always a good financial idea).

 

It would be great if we could at least save one of the discounts indefinitely, to use at a later time when we're more disposed to spending money on buying plat. 

[Sacrificial Mods (The Melee Umbral Mods)]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

Bravo, that was a huge oversight on their end, not only is CO still absurdly OP as now it made other mods useless, made a thread myself as well.

Let's pray they notice how two 3 rank mods are killing 3 of the most prized mods, which are expensive and hard to max.

Thank you, I appreciate the encouragement and endorsement/positivity.  

 

I don't mind C.O. working as it does now... It does less damage now, but it's still offers more damage than a riven mod (so it's not "nerfed to the ground" like many players will want to claim). However, it does currently reward players for getting creative to get more status effects/procs (for those who enjoy that type of build)  Rewarding creativity, ingenuity, and resourcefulness, is something that I am COMPLETELY and absolutely for. 

What I AM suggesting, is that they change how Sacrificial Pressure, and Sacrificial Steel work (and yeah, buff Primed P.P. so it's relevant again)

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

CO is no longer capped at 3 status like in the workshop, they changed it last minute b4 the update. It now stacks additive in both ways with itself and with pressure point. Making it an additive bonus to pressure point was what killed the damage

It's better than a max disposition "Damage Riven"

I don't see how C.O.'s damage is "killed" at all... it's just not insanely disproportionate, like it used to be. This means it's no longer a "mandatory/must have, for any build" which does free up a slot for more build diversity.

Or I'd like to say that it's no longer mandatory, but that's not the case. Instead, it just made itself even MORE mandatory than it used to be. It only freed up a mod slot, by invalidating the use of pressure point/primed pressure point. 

 

[Sacrificial Mods (The Melee Umbral Mods)]

44 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I were about to do a topic about it. Also it's event worst since Conditon Overload don't have a cap.

Thank you. I didn't know they removed the cap, at the time that I made this post. 

Yeah, that definitely does further kill the Umbral Melee mods, and Primed P.P.

[Bring back our Melee 2.0]

No, thank you.

 

I do think Melee 3.0 needs a lot of tweaks, to be more viable/fun/enjoyable... But I honestly think this is a MUCH BETTER direction for melee as a whole. 

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

I'm indifferent to C.O. being additive, instead of multiplicative... but

 I do think that C.O. shouldn't have any max cap limit, if they're gonna make the buffs work additive to P.P. (instead of at the end of the damage equation, like it used to). If players can sustain 4-8 status procs on enemies, then they deserve to get a 480-960% additive* damage bonus to their status weapons. 

 

>Or they could've kept it working the same as it used to, but lower the buff to 50%, and THEN implement the max 3 stack bonus.... or give it diminishing returns instead of giving it a max stack bonus (as long as it's multiplicative, to the total damage). 

 

Players shouldn't be punished for their  resourcefulness, creativity, or ingenuity. I don't use C.O. often, and i don't use zaws often, so i'm honestly not saying this out of personal bias: If DE didn't want the Plague Kiprah to be an overly abused meta, maybe just make the other weapons better. Or make better crit build mods (instead of nerfing blood rush, and C.O.)

Just make stronger enemies, and increase player warframes' max HP/armor if you want to fix the scaling/instakill problems with enemies. 

[Sacrificial Mods (The Melee Umbral Mods)]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

IDK how you expect this to not derail into a CO arguement when your first point is defending the nerfs.

I'm not defending them. I just said that I don't mind them; I'm indifferent to them. 

Edit:

Though I do think that C.O. shouldn't have any max cap limit, IF they're gonna make the buffs work additive to P.P. (instead of at the end of the damage equation, like it used to). _{If players can sustain 4-7 different status effects on enemies, they deserve to have 480-840% damage bonus to their status weapons.}

>Or it could work with combo multipliers, instead of the number of status effects on the enemy (like blood rush) and have the damage bonus be 45% per multiplier--as long as the enemy has at least a single status effect on them. 

>Or they could've kept it working the same as it used to, lower the buff to 50%, and make the buff stacks apply with diminishing returns as more status effects are applied. 

 

Players shouldn't be punished for their resourcefulness, creativity, or ingenuity.  If DE doesn't want an overused-meta, they should just make better diversity. Or provide new opportunities for players to exercise their creativity & ingenuity. 

[Sacrificial Mods (The Melee Umbral Mods)]

Sacrificial mods take a lot of in-game time & progression to acquire, so they build a lot of sentimental value in terms of achievement and progression. For me they feel more like unlocking "Badass Mode" or reaching "Warframe Puberty" rather than just another version of primed mods. They are also so f-ing expensive to upgrade, that I had to pay plat for Anasa sculptures to be able to max them out. So I would REALLY hate to see them become inept. 

 

DISCLAIMERS!!!!! :

This post is NOT INTENDED to sh!t on DE, or the new melee changes. This is specifically about how the new mod changes affect the sacrificial mod set. 

PLEASE KEEP COMMENTS CONSTRUCTIVE... Explain your thoughts, compare to what you'd like instead, and give suggestions!

This post is NOT about discussing the changes to C.O. (condition overload) or general melee changes, even though I might mention some mods rather often. The main intent of this post is to discuss how the Umbral/Sacrificial mods have been affected. 

For the most part, I can understand & appreciate a lot of the new Melee changes.

- I'm Indifferent to the C.O. changes... but I do think they should remove the 3 stack limit, and buff Primed P.P./Organ shatter, if they're just gonna make C.O. work like a better Pressure Point. That would make Primed P.P. a viable option, for weapons with low status chance. 

-I also don't mind that Blood Rush doesn't increase the final overall crit chance, but instead it adds onto existing crit buffs. I already used it as a "Crit Mod" replacement for the most part... though I do think they should buff it to 85%, instead of 60% per combo multiplier. 

 -I am a "whale. I do buy plat/prime access. I have bought some maxed mods with plat, for myself or friends (like C.O.). I've also bought anasa sculptures to max out some Primed/Umbral mods. 

- I do also farm for materials, and for mods, and I know how hard it is to get C.O. to drop. I've done the grind to help out friends, since it wasn't affordable to keep buying more C.O. mods. I know what it's like to grind for endo, pre and post Arbitrations. (I don't appreciate the mod drop booster btw, even though I am a whale.  ... I play warframe to ESCAPE gacha/pay to progress games. So I really hope DE doesn't pull a Bethesda on us) 

 

Now that the disclaimers are out of the way:

 

Sacrificial Pressure

*Summary: Sacrificial P.P. has the lowest "Melee Damage" bonus modifier, out of all the melee damage mods. So now that C.O. (Condition Overload) basically works as a better "Primed P.P." and even Primed P.P. has a higher modifier than "Sacrificial P.P., there's absolutely ZERO demand or need to upgrade, or use this mod anymore.

I'll show you some photos as reference:

- Below we see that CO gives 120%, which caps out at 360% (DE has said the bonus additive, and maxes out at 3 stacks), meanwhile Primed P.P. caps out at 165%, and Sacrificial P.P. caps out at 137.5% (110% without the set bonus). Even though "Sac. P.P". costs the most out of these three, to upgrade or use, or acquire, it's the least effective mod at its job. 

 

 

 

Sacrificial Steel

Sacrificial Steel faces the same problem as Sacrificial Pressure.

Summary: While "Blood Rush" caps at 720% bonus to crit chance (60% * 12x combo multiplier),  "Sacrificial Steel" caps at 110%, with the set bonus. Now there's no demand, or reason that incentivizes players to upgrade or use this crit mod, since Blood Rush will almost immediatley outperform it. It also costs much less endo, time, or plat to upgrade, and much less Mod Capacity/forma to use blood rush instead of Sacrificial steel. 

 

Photo examples:

 

 

Even with the Paracesis gimmick, it's still not an optimal choice to use either Sacrificial mods. Simple reason is because even WITH the sentient damage bonuses, Melee is more dangerous and less effective than outright shooting it with your primary, and tapping it with the Paracesis (or operator's amp) to clear resistances. 

 

Suggestions for improvement: 

1) Make Sacrificial Pressure stack multiplicative (at the end, after C.O. & Primed P.P. applies), and able to be used along with Primed P.P.  

2) Have Sacrificial Steel apply a flat/additive crit chance% *before* blood rush applies, OR have it stack multiplicative with Blood Rush (at the end of the equation)

 

 

TLDR: New Melee changes indirectly neutered the Sacrificial/Umbral Melee Mods.

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to read my post, if you've read this far. I hope you have a lovely day/evening after work (or whatever you're doing).