BoredFinno

Main post updated. This one irons out some of the points outdated since the thread was created. The following changes have been made:

The beam from Tenet Flux Rifle spasms when fired with Dante. I assume its only with Tenet version as its beam isnt actually a beam, but i dont own the normal version to test it.

Main post updated. For those who have already read it and don't want to go over entire thing again:

So the discussion Darkumineru and i had was about a single point: cross-rift gun damage. I was personally always against this solution for few reasons: I think it undervalues the whole mechanic of the rift I don't think it would be enough to fix the multiplayer problem. Not everyone sure is like this, but people are still very touchy when someone is touching their weapon's damage. I think because of this, people would still leave squads with limbo for the pure fact that he basically automatically reduces their damage by 50%. Some people talked to about this implementation already confirmed they would act in this way. This kinda discourages interaction with the rift, as you can basically ignore it It kinda feels like a cheap, band-aid fix Darkumineru did imply that this change should be done with the dash one as well and did point out some valid problems with dash part itself. His argument is also that this makes people choose to interact with Limbo's mechanics. I disagree with this. If frame is bringing a unique mechanic to the table, players should be encouraged to engage with it. Problem arises when this mechanic becomes too annoying to interact with. Having different mechanics is part of the game and if its done to be not as intrusive, it can be actually fun. It shakes up the game as well. The game also shouldn't always tailor to the player how they want to play; what would be the point of challenges like Deep Archimedea or sorties. In light of that, again, i think rift should be made more accessible to other players. It provides a little bit of support and some survivability as well, which are already valuable. The whole discussion started me thinking on even more solutions to make rift more accessible, to not cuck gun focused frames. This is something I came up with: Surge's radial banish has a chance to spawn a tear in reality, just like limbo's passive does. The chance should be based on the amount of enemies affected by it, as to if you have 2 enemies, its more likely to spawn 1 from those 2 enemies to again, avoid cucking. Ofc, min chance should be capped and not scalable. Allies, and only allies can use this to enter the rift, for a limited time. Might as well gain a some % of torrents buff, to encourage this even more. Would it be simply by touching as its now, or by using the interaction button, thats more down to testing imo. I think this creates a little mini-game of seeking those out, if they are made to spawn within reasonable range(maybe one tear every 10m) which enables the gun frames to interact with rifted enemies and encourages them to do so. Tears would of course have to last for a much more reasonable time(maybe even until surge's banish is again triggered). This was also the original design of the dash tear i imagine, but this one is too annoying for a fast paced game. With this change, i don't think dash for everyone would even be required anymore. We came to conclusion that we agree to disagree. To be fair, i am not understanding really what Darkumineru's argument was that making rift more available isn't enough, from what i understand, its that people don't want to interact with this mechanic out of laziness or inflexibility to slightly alter their playstyle, but please correct me if i misunderstood, this one is on me. Mostly just want to hear your input in this idea in general and maybe your arguments why "for" this change over something else, like this. I do agree with most of the things you talked about, but i generally think overguard needs to change for the health of the game in general, even tho that might be a different discussion all together. It is definitely a fix for its current state, but not a needed one if they decide to revisit overguard, which i really hope they do, as a lot of discussion has been had about it lately.

Ever since latest Plague Star, I noticed Vitrica now has a weird yellowish swing trail that doesn't change color according to one's energy color. I thought at the time that its probably a bug and it will be fixed some time soon. But it hasn't. I've checked some older videos of the weapon to make sure im not going mad and as i expected, it didnt exist back then. This is one of my favorite melee weapons and this yellowish trail is pretty distracting and i haven't used the weapon as much ever since for this reason.

I made a thread of what his rework should have been imo, that both keeps the old hydroid's functions while also not touching how the new ones works. I dont want to get deeper into hydroid in a limbo thread, if you want to read it, to truly see where im coming from, you can prob dig it up through my profile, heck, dm me if you want to, ill dig it up for you. His 1 isn't a priming tool, its a killing tool now, and it does not synergize with his 4 as you want some range on it, yet building range automatically removes that synergy with his one. What should have been done with he puddle has been done with inaroses sandstrom.

Far from it. It's well thought out no matter how you look at it. Every ability flows into one another. Random enemy sure is unreliable, i've been thinking why it was made this way. No matter how you look at it, transferring to the closest unrifted enemy seems to make way more sense no matter how you look at it. But thats the whole change this ability needs. I stand by saying your proposal should be an augment. It's not my point, its a fact. Doing it with 1-3 combo takes way more time and way more energy. It also takes some engagement with the kit instead of just casting a single ability. It also doesn't contradict it, as surge affects enemies within limbo's range, not every rifted enemy anywhere. There is still a limit to how far this goes unless you are moving. And surprise, its 9m bigger at base than cataclysm, for this reason. So you want to tell me you wouldn't rather spend 50 energy to quickly tap 2 twice to allow cordon to group enemies, or let them move slightly towards where they need to be? Be my guest, go through triple casting banish and surge. Oh right, didn't your idea make surge trigger on kill instead? Either way, both cost way more energy, way more time and you really sometimes just want to slightly move enemies. Its not that rare either, but sure, not that often too. Shield gate allows you to take that hit. I'd rather preserve this option personally. Also, making it the default state of rift sounds a bit too strong to me. There is a fine line between enjoyable micro-managing and obnoxious one. As i said, i think limbo is plenty engaging as he is currently. Im constantly pressing all 4 buttons with him. Adding more would feel overwhelming and would be a sure one way ticket to carpal tunnel. And you say this about hydroid because you don't understand what he lost. Puddle wasn't supposed to be removed, it needed a sandstorm treatment. It was a trap for anyone inexperienced with him, as they would simply think that his gameloop is to stay in puddle. By losing puddle, hydroid lost a good way to group and bombard enemies, Puddle was the exact range of his one. He lost the possibility to group his tentacles, puddle did that. Now, you cant choose between a choke point bombardment or wide area lockdown, akin to divine spears. This is quite annoying as it slows defense type missions without any way for him to end it prematurely. His 4 now has no synergy with his 1 as their ranges dont match at all. One cant argue that he isn't strong now, but he fall more under "rushed rework because of his state" that you mentioned at the start. He became a bland weapon's platform, or a "caster" that simply spams one ability over and over, until that single button dies. Thats not engaging, thats braindead. If anything was meant to be taken out for plunder, its tidal surge.

The changes themselves would make, even at the current state of the eximus, Limbo way more comfy to play. That said, I completely agree with you that overguard isn't healthy for the game and needs revisiting. Its a completely different discussion tho, but how prevalent its becoming and how little tools are left to deal with it, im not liking its current direction at all (looking at out challenge that gives every enemy overguard). I will leave my stance below on it from another thread if you have any interest in reading it (or anyone else), as i think the tragedy 35.5.3 made this discussion a priority one:

Again, ideas that actively disable his original intent and design. His 3 abilities do the same thing as their intent is to enable a really safe playstyle, to generally reduce the amount of time limbo spends in material plane, as rift is his unique way of "tanking". Everything that is present in his kit is very well thought out and put in for a reason. Can we argue that Rift lost it's master survivability? Sure. This just means things can be added to Rift itself, like reducing status duration on limbo while in rift, giving some dr, silencing abilities of enemies inside rift, possibilities are endless. Forcing a non-dps frame to rely on a kill to enable his gameloop is not a good idea. It removes the main, most broken combo of propagating banishment through banish -> rift surge -> hold banish -> rift surge -> hold banish to cover the whole tile in rift. This combo requires one to be present in material plane ONLY ONCE and changing this functionality hurts his survivability. Don't let me start on how its current function actually allows limbo to play against nullyfiers. This should be an augment if anything, on this i can agree, but completely changing how it currently work is a bad idea, also cause of its interaction with cataclysm. Speaking of which: There are couple of reasons cataclysm works like this: Discourages "set-and-forget" playstyle Propagates Banishment of the enemies beyond cataclysm's range in combination with rift surge To question, why would anyone want the 2nd scenario? Well, most of you ppl seem to take issue with how enemies keep being in and out on the edges cause its shrinking constantly; surge helps with that and is again a reason why the change to "on-kill" isn't good. Cataclysm will never be changed to not shrink or god forbid even expand because of the 1st clause i wrote, so this is the next best thing. And as to "oh, but its so annoying, no one else can shoot the enemy then and he is frozen far away and is halting the defense", yeah, no S#&$. What do u think banish hold function is for? If they are in this scenario, its not kit's problem, its players skill issue. Pay attention to the battlefield and use the kit as it was intended. As for killing, its really not that hard to stand in cataclysm and shoot your gun outside of it. This again comes down to not understanding how rift works. Great idea, this change alone would make limbo the most undesirable teammate in 80% of the content, even more than he already is. He actually is because most Limbos keep this active all the time, instead of turning it on and off depending on the state of the battlefield. Limbo's kit on itself can run out of control on its own and limbo needs all the tools to get it back in line/under control. Yeah, we can change the damage type of his abilities, but it wont do much for him as his ability damage is piss-low. Forget about overguard deterioration, its clear DE doesnt want abilities with no damage to interact with overguard in any ways possible. Yeah, sure. Problem with expanding what limbo can do with it makes his playstyle unbearably active, hence why his base kit is fine as it is. As i said before, sure, adding something more to boost rift's survivability, like silencing enemies inside of it, or reducing status duration on limbo while in rift. Notice how these suggestions all try to build on the original idea of the rift? Rift is 1st and foremost a unique survivability tool. Good rework consists on building onto what is already present and reinforcing the original intent. If you take a look at most of warframe's reworks, they all fall within this rule (except hydroid's, while he is a powerhouse now, his synergies were destroyed in the rework, removing the control over his kit he used to have, thus why i consider it not a good rework). Limbo's kit at first glance deceives most new players think that he is very much a set and forget frame. It doesn't help that people even refuse to understand it and just immediately call it disruptive. Generally, his disruptiveness comes from lack of experience and understanding from both sides. You need to pay attention to where enemies are frozen, you need to unfreeze them, you need to control your kit, lest your kit controls. What is the saying again, "fire is a great servant, but ruthless ruler", (idk, we at least have a saying that goes something along those lines).

I am addressing here what shouldn't be part of his "rework". Hell, he doesn't need one. I made a whole thread on what he actually needs, even with current state of overguard. He interacts with rift enough, we dont have to complicate every kit or make it as complex as dante's is. Thats one of my main issues with most reworks. They either water down rift itself, or completely change what limbo is or overcomplicate his kit. Limbo is fine as he is, he needs tweaks, not rework. If he gave energy to everyone in the rift, it would be plain overpowered. It works for limbo as his abilities deal little to no damage, giving this kind of power to to other frames in addition to the amount of battlefield control limbo brings, he would literally be the best frame ever to ever exist. Oh, and nullyfier thing? U build around it and bring right equipment. Thats it. As for what i'd do, there is a whole thread, couple of weeks old at this point. Give it a read, if u havent already General feedback i can give is, you are creating so much work code wise which shrinks the possibility of it ever being implemented, you are complicating the gameplay to make it more annoying for no greater benefit and you are watering down rift instead of building on its unique survivability aspect. All of this i already gave you as feedback in the post above. I will reiterate again. Its not limbo that needs all his abilities looked at, its overguard in general, for the sake of all cc abilities. Edit: i will add that maybe changing his damage type would be beneficial, but with his piss low dmg, i dont think its consequential

No, just no. Your rework like so many just kill his identity and playstyle, removes flavor and makes him similar to so many other frames. You are also trying to bend rules on an ability type just to fit Limbo. This literally undervalues any point of Rift and 2 dimensions existing. I talked about this before, rift itself isnt the problem, its its availability to other squadmates. This just makes him a worse Harrow, with exactly same problem as him. Rift is supposed to be a supportive mechanic, it rewards ALL players for interacting with it, not just Limbo. It's issue is as said before how unavailable it is to allies without cataclysm and general lack of information or understanding how to use limbo. Problem with this also is that you are forcing a non-dps, weapons platfrom frame to kill enemies in a game where most of the times, you are playing with someone who is gonna wipe the whole map by just looking at a tile; just like Harrow. I'm not sure what you mean by chain banish. Banish as it is is completely fine and doesn't need any touching. Also disagree with helminth version. While its extremely niche, its not absolutely useless and one can make some specific builds with it. Allowing every frame to use rift in this way again undermines Limbo's value and uniqueness. Having some extremely niche abilities is absolutely and completely fine, not everything needs to be useful in every scenario. You won't use a hammer to unscrew a screw. So, how would this actually work? You can regenerate energy at all times, or when nothing is affected by it? If its the former, you are bending the rules of how channeled abilities work and if its the latter, what is the point of it being a channel? Generally latter part of the rework also makes me question what the actual combo and control is with this. I really don't see what even is the benefit of turning this into a channel. Especially since everything else you mentioned is based on duration. And again, we want to walk away from abilities that drain energy per enemy, look at equinox: she is literally gutted cause her ability is just a worse gloom. They removed puddle completely and reworked grendel's feast just so we dont have any more of these, as they are not fun to upkeep and are generally problematic to maintain. And why would you want to make cold procs closer to eximus units? This just puts a paper thin frame in more of a potential danger. Why not have it applies to any eximus under stasis? Rift is supposed to be limbo's unique way of tanking, y undermine that? Let's also mention that all abilities that affected overguard no longer do, for the sake of some band aid consistency. Its not the ability that should change for the sake of overguard, its overguard that has to change for the sake of many other cc reliant frames. So, you basically are adding tribute to Limbo. Many issues i take from this: Cycling through Tribute and rebuffing with it is already so damn annoying, most ppl just use one of the 3 Rift guard is a straight rip-off of Citrine's ability. Its not unique, it undermines the unique form of limbos tanking and is generally uninspiring to have ANOTHER 90% DR frame. It makes it stale. Game needs diversity to remain fun. Generally having Rift Torrent separate from rift surge is questionable. You want to have surge to keep enemies in the rift, but you dont have damage bonus(in case of your rift surge version) to do it efficiently? Whats the point? If anything, this destroys the fluid gameplay of Limbo for something that i cant even see what the point of the change is. I can't see the fluid game loop here. Having rift surge in this way, idk... Generally one would want to have this on for fluid gameplay, but then they sacrifice potential damage buff which is usually a must on a frame or a damage reduction, whose point i already can't see since being in a different plane already protects you from most things, other than eximus abilities and some rare units. It also defeats the surge's utility. Surge as it is is great when you really want to lock something in, like interception, because its condition isnt for something to die, its for something to leave rift to propagate. It also helps keep the game loop going as you wouldn't have to dash in and out constantly because you killed the last enemy in the rift while not surrounded by any more, as the current version will have an enemy ready a bit further, on who you can again recast the surge and keep urself within the safety of the rift. It removes one of the most important tools in limbos kit for battlefield control, which is limbo's whole identity. This one is at least in the typical DE style, a band aid, costing a mod slot that could be used for something else, more fun. Why would you add this hold function when it's as easy to recast it? This also promotes a limbo playstyle that id like people to grow out of, purely in Cataclysm fighting. This ability has so much more utility than haha big bubble cover everything, fight in it. While nullyfiers are annoying, I don't think they shouldn't pop Cataclysm. It would make no sense in consistency and thematically. Frost's bubble is insta popped when it touches a nully. So is gara's wall. Cataclysm is literally an unstable tear in space-time having something disrupt it should make it pop, as again, its unstable. Can't complain about arbi drones and necramechs counting as within rift while in cataclysm. This augment never had any use, buffing it is meaningless. Having its range reset would again promote the non-primary idea of how one plays limbo. This is an interesting one. Issue i have with it is that it kinda dumbs his kit down and kinda automates it. We can salvage some of the ideas tho in a different concept. We could, as limbo is a master of his dimension, give him some dr while he is in the rift as part of the passive, but this doesn't remove the underlying problem he currently has. His current kit is fine as it is, problem is generally where cc is at this point in time, and instead of looking at limbo, we should look at eximus units and overguard itself, not for the sake of only Limbo, but any frame that relies on CC. Your rework generally removes what makes limbo unique, while making him 3x more complicated for no real good reason, so its a hard pass for me. This isn't to say he doesn't need some touch ups, he definitely does, but is all he needs - some touch ups. I can't complain about asking for visibility rework, this has been asked for over and over again and is very much needed at this point.

No offense, but i think this falls more under "gone completely insane". Lemme break it down why i think so: For one, this falls under "full blown rework" category, which in the 1st place isn't needed, it does change Limbo farther from his identity and is something i asked to be avoided in the original post. He really doesn't need anything more than as u said "Stasis and Cataclysm" being his entire thing which already isn't true. The example with condemn u mention is not a good example, as: Condem is directional Condem doesnt keep you save in the same way Rift + Stasis do, you can still be shot at by new enemies He also doesnt need more to as u said "his entire thing" cause rift is his ultimate survivability tool and this is something that should if anything be enforced even more. Its an unique way of tanking, not present on any other frame, and its fun and cool. This also flows into proposition of ur new ability: making everything sped up defeats the safety of the rift, it in facts makes it more dangerous, as there is little benefit for limbo to be outside of the rift in the 1st place. And if you want to argue that you can be in material plane while speeding enemies in the rift, you still have to shoot sped up enemies, for which, you need to be in the rift! Entropy also has the same problem, as it forces you to exit the safety zone as a paper thin warframe to cast an ability and be vulnerable for that time, which, again, we already have many ways limbo is vulnerable even in his current state, so absolute safety of the rift is not an issue at all. On saving an ability slot, limbo is already pretty active in his casting, if one uses his whole kit and not just stasis + cataclysm. Having more abilities to manage is just going to be a massive pain. I think banish and surge are completely fine as separate abilities and should remain that way. Weapon platform caster is in fact quite an unique identity, not very present on other frames. Most weapon platform frames have either a duration based weapon buff, or a channel, for it to be set and forget. Limbo can't be that passive as he has to constantly move his cataclysm or redo the banish surge combo for his loop to function. Stasis might be the only set and forget and again, you might not always want to keep it for its full duration. The interesting idea you had and I like is the cataclysm storing damage done to the enemies, this would be fun to see, but I'm still reluctant on if it should be a thing, i will definitely give it some more thought.

His biggest benefit for fighting in the rift is his survivability. I do think a weapon steroid should be part of his base kit, which I addressed in those surge changes propositions. The randomness of surge would be managed with changes to radar as it gives you information that someone is not where they should be and you have to do something about it. That said, having a damage bonus within Rift's passive is definitely a valid direction as well. Mentioning the randomness of surge, u made me start thinking why does it jump to a random enemy outside the rift and not the closest one? I'm struggling to find a good reason even tho I'm sure its intentional, as everything in his kit is. Thinking about it, it seems to me at the moment that jumping to closest enemy outside of the rift has more benefits than its current state.

Once again, you tackling the LoS is pointless in the 1st place as it shouldn't be a thing because: Condition for the nuke is to have a DoT status Easiest way for applying that status is an ability that ALREADY has LoS and can be pointed in a direction Damage depends on the amount of DoT statuses applied, which, again, is usually done with directional methods(shooting the enemy, dark verse) Adding another condition/check for a skill that is already very conditional is stupid and bad game design. It removes satisfaction in a game that is all about it. You are not developing dark souls game, you are developing a power fantasy one. Im not saying there shouldn't be challenge or to let a single frame dominate, but considering how an ability feels should be your priority. And big part of Tragedy feeling good was the fact it had no LoS.

Main post updated. For those who have already read it and don't want to go over it again:

Appreciated bud. I will update the main post in an hour or so too, so that helps a ton.

I mean, sure, but i cant see how the former solution fixes this. You would still have to recast his 4, which would again prioritize in ur example ancient healers. Unless you'd want to kill a shadow with a soul punch, then soul punch a desired target. which sounds kinda clunky, especially when you consider that you would need to seek out the shadow u dont want to detonate it. I think what i proposed offers a bit more comfort for a tradeoff, which is by no means ideal, but i think better for everyday use.

Listen buddy, i play a lot of this frame. I use surge daily. Playing limbo without cataclysm is absolutely and completely viable. Its even recommended if u gonna engage with helminth that u swap cataclysm. Surge's implementation is almost perfect as it is. Reason you dont rely on energize is cause u want to stay in the rift for as long as u can, only occasionally popping out if u r out of enemies in the rift or need to pick up life support. That said, is playing limbo without surge possible? absolutely, u could play him in a way to pop a "ptivate" arena on top of the enemies, kill em, and move on to next group. But this is not fully utilizing this frame. Now, for me "dodging" ur question. The question you are asking is already pointless, as i described, ur playstyle changes depending on the mission type. No, i wont cast cataclysm 50 m away from objective in a defense, but i will do it in survival. And removing this would be a major nerf and would really shrink possible builds with limbo. Or perhaps, i will do that with a certain build and playstyle, its possible, viable and fun. Limbo is extremely flexible and diverse in his builds, so much so i cant fit everything i want in all the build configs available. If you feel like you are casting his cata too far away, cast it at your feet. Now, if you cool down and instead of trying to make urself right, calling hills to die on and whatnot, maybe open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. I can see that you are a veteran player, having 4x my active playtime, but u also have 1% limbo playtime with limbo and limbo prime combined. I have 20%. I play this frame every day. I've been doing so for 6 or so years. I don't tell you how ur protea should be played and that her kit is wrong. Don't do the same to us limbo mains. Instead of getting heated over being called out for being wrong, perhaps ask what is wrong in ur understanding of the frame and ur playstile. If you want to give up on him, u do u. But if u give him a bit more time and actually try to understand him and get creative with ways you play him, you will find that he really doesnt need the changes you proposed and would understand that does actually kill his core design and idea. They water him down and make him similar to already existing frames, instead of a unique case. And unique is usually better. Not at any cost, but usually it is. And if you are annoyed by surge, simply put roar, eclipse or something else over it. Its ur frame, make it work how u like it to work. I have nothing more to add here. This either convinces u or not. Have a nice day and what not.

Yeah, this. Maybe trying to find and target a shadow could be a bit too annoying. Another way to implement this is that simply killing a marked enemy or executing it with this ability would replace your weakest shadow with this enemy. Replaced enemy could still explode, tho you wouldnt really have much of control where this damage is dealt this way. As far as im aware, current version just heals all your shadows when u kill a new marked enemy.

Listen, it's clear that u want the best for this frame, but there is a clear lack of experience and full understanding of this frame: U can't not care about limbo's passive, as this is what makes limbo functions and creates a "dump" stat which every frame kinda needs. In Limbo's case, this is efficiency. As i said, surge is already spores-like, difference being that it doesnt spread to all enemies, it moves to the nearest one, that is in a material plane. I do think its absolutely fine the way it already is. Its practicality is very effective in fact, cause it fixes ur issue with enemies stacking at the edge, making them hard to shoot - it keeps them in the rift plane in case they leave cataclysm. y do i think surge is fine the way it is? if it worked more like spores, you would have enemies 500 meters away frozen somewhere disrupting enemy flow in survivals. Since its range is this way in a way limited to cataclysms, its much more manageable. You talking about cataclysm makes me think you dont fully grasp how 2 planes function. You can cast a small cataclysm 30 meters away at a choke point, to grab a group of enemies at which u shoot, while u r in the rift. I dont understand y do u think cataclysm is purely a safety zone for limbo and objectives. Its literally more of a lingering banish, whose one of the uses is also defense. The way one plays this frame depends a lot on a mission type you are running. You won't use cataclysm the same way in survival as you would in defense. And again, taking this tool away would kill even that possibility of playing limbo in a public squad and not being disruptive to the rest. You are either not experienced enough with this frame or not creative enough. Surge is disruptive only if you choose to use it as a set and forget ability. Banish hold function is also a way for u to not seek out a single enemy stuck somewhere in the rift, waiting for u to kill it to move on with the defense.

While I completely agree with you on this, the clarity (or rather lack of) of limbo's or any other frame's abilities is a topic on its own and limbo is not the only offender in this aspect. He perhaps might be the most confusing one.

*Sigh* Oh dear, another boring limbo post, how exciting. Like we don't have enough of those. I'd argue this one is a bit of contrarian post tho, since most of them are crying for a complete overhaul and rework. I don't think that's needed. Not at all. In fact, there are frames in a more dire state that need a bit more extreme changes than Limbo. I say this cause I actually play A LOT of Limbo. And he is fine, he is functional. Even very good if you are aware of the battlefield. It would be such a shame to rework such a unique kit. This is not to say that there are no problems and valid concerns with his kit, which some of the changes here try to address. I don't want to get into the argument of that he needs skill or whatever. He takes getting used to and a bit more active thinking than some other options, but he is definitely not a geniuses frame. He has a learning curve that you choose to engage with or not. If you don't feel like engaging with it, that's completely valid, there are so many other options for you. So, why do I think I know what I'm talking about? Well, let me tell you a bit about myself. I have over 4k on this game out of which 18.7% is Limbo and Limbo Prime combined. You could say I could be considered part of a rare disgusting Limbo main breed. I've been playing this game since Chains of Harrow update. I started with Volt and immediately swapped to Limbo once his quest was available. I basically completed every node with Limbo, finding ways to cheese every mission type with him. It was some of the most fun I had in any videogame. This thread is more to polish some daily Limbo annoyances, both for Limbo players and squad mates and perhaps bring him a bit Up to Date. I will divide this list into following sections: Mandatory Would be nice Uncooked ideas Augment changes and ideas 1. Mandatory The Banished/Rifted and Rift visual effects need to be updated: Banished effect was never noticeable enough and with the amount of enemies on SP and new ever changing lighting systems, its even harder to quickly spot. The effect should be seen over the whole enemy, not just at their feet. If they appeared smudged, glitching like old displays, cel shaded or noticeable rippling like under heat wave, it would clarify way easier and quicker that enemy is in fact in the rift. It should also work both ways: If you are in the normal plane, rifted enemies should appear the way described, and if you are in the rift, enemies in normal plane should appear this way. When it comes to the rift itself, even I as someone who plays limbo a lot can't always tell if I'm in or out. This game is fcking grindy and more enjoyable if I blast my music over it at times, listening for the sound effect is not the best way and having such different lighting in every tile set makes it hard sometimes to immediately tell if you are in the rift. I'd say go full Borderlands cel shaded style in rift. This is already a direction Rift takes and I think it should be cranked all they way there. The graphics would be so different there would be no mistake if one is in or outside of the Rift. Make enemy radar of banished/rifted enemies appear in different color, similar to revealing spores: You can see a group of enemies over yonder and you cant tell how many of them are rifted from that far? Well, just look at the mini-map. There has been so many instances where I wanted this to be a thing. A good example is if surge banishes an enemy decently far and behind a wall: having this would give us an information that this enemy is slowing down the mission and that we should get it out of the rift asap, instead of guessing. It generally helps us to quickly see where we should focus our gun's attention. Changing the passive: Biggest gripe people have with this frame is how unfriendly he is for a squad play. This fact is what makes most of people cry out for his rework. I always considered that 2 planes itself is not the problem, but the availability to a non-limbo frame. So the change I've been thinking of for a while has been this: Allow players within Limbo's affinity range to dash in and out of the rift. Unlike Limbo tho, they cant stay in the rift indefinitely this way. I'd say they can do it for like 4 seconds. This gives them enough time to kill that rouge rifted enemy and move to the next wave of defense. This way they still need to rely on Limbo for longer invitations to his domain. It also gives Limbo another layer of utility, a tiny "budget" rolling guard, as dash itself doesn't clear status effects and doesn't make you invincible. If this is too broken, one can always add a cooldown between dashes, just like on rolling guard. His passive already functions in a similar way, but its way too annoying for anyone to seek out his tears in reality. I thought of removing those since this change makes them a bit redundant, but there are some things I'm playing with right now that show some good use of their existence. After some discussion with another Limbo enjoyer, i think i came to an even better idea, that seems fun to me. It is an alternative idea to the dash solution which might make it redundant. The idea is: Surge's radial banish has a chance to leave a tear in reality similar to current ones limbo leaves when he dashes. Allies and only allies can use these to enter the rift for a limited time, either by walking into them as they currently are, or by using interaction button on them. Doing this could give allies maybe 30% of torrent's current buff if the augment is present. The chance of the tear spawning would be based on enemies around the radial banish, meaning, if there is like 2 enemies, it has a greater chance to spawn a single tear, to avoid removing accessibility of those enemies to squadmates. There should also be a reasonable amount of tears present, maybe 1 every 5m radius (1 occupies an area of 10m). They should also last for a decent amount of time, maybe even until surge's banish is retriggered and they should keep allies within for again a reasonable amount of time. This is to remove the griefing on both ends: it doesn't disable Limbo from doing his gameloop for the sake of the allies and its not disabling game loop of allies to the point they can't play the mission. There might be some work on their end, but it should be made in a way its basically painless, which the above numbers on paper sound like they achieve. They could also get their mini-map icon, to make it even less so and would probably be a preferred addition. Operator amps should hit cross-rift or banish hold function needs to function while incapacitated: There is currently a major issue in interaction between Last Gasp and Limbo's general plan: if you are downed (and you will be), there is no point in Last Gasp, as you can't damage anything in the rift. And if you are playing limbo properly, most of the time, everything will be in the rift. Having this node disabled for Inaros and Sevagoth is completely valid as their passives already have the same function, but having this not function on a frame with paper thin defenses is just stupid. Because of this, operator amps should be able to hit enemies cross rift, as having limbo in a squad potentially nerfs anyone's ability to self revive, which just adds to a big list of what limbo can do to troll his m8s. Alternatively, Banish hold function should be allowed during incapacitation, just like disabling cataclysm is. Surge's affecting range should have a fixed range: Rift surge has 2 range stats attached to itself. There is the radial banish range and a range at which enemies are affected (around Limbo) by rift surge once you press the ability. This other range needs to be made fixed or at least have a minimum cap at how much its range can be affected. I think this ability does need to have range and not only apply to any rifted enemy as that could prove problematic for enemy flow in survival. The way it currently works completely makes this ability useless on low range limbo. Thus, as i said, either make it affinity range, or add a cap to how small it can be. Perhaps making its minimum possible range affinity range is a better choice, cause the other could potentially nerf how it work with high range limbo setups. This change mostly expands build flexibility. Allow interactions with objects that are in Cataclysm: Objects like hacking consoles, or putting data masses into terminals. I don't know why this hasn't been a thing from the start. If you want to make players vulnerable while hacking, hate to break it to you, you already removed that possibility with existence of Void Mode. It's one more way Limbo can potentially troll his m8s. A "boss" arena: A lot of newer bosses, field bosses and mini-bosses (Necramechs) are completely immune to the existence of rift. This again I think is a stupid concept since this frame's whole survivability is tied to him being in a different dimension and manipulating that to further his goals. I'm not saying that bosses should be affected by stasis, that would be plain stupid as well. What I'm talking about is, let's say you want to fight archon. You can't cast cataclysm on it and be able to damage it, he is still treated like "outside" of the rift. This point kinda ties in with the one right above it. If a boss is in cataclysm, it should be treated like its in the rift. Only exception imo should be eidolons. Bosses should stay immune to banish, stasis and rift surge, I feel like this is a given. Why I'm talking about this is, that a lot of bosses usually have ads around them, and being able to make a "private" arena with you and the boss, freezing adds around it should be a valid strategy, specifically for a frame with paper thin defenses. Slinky and Illuminati: If there was ever an enemy I'd call a bane of limbo, I'd consider it this guy. The Hollow Vein can be banished ONLY ONCE for DRASTICALLY REDUCED banishment time. It's stupidly tanky and if all of this wasn't enough, its magnetic proc goes cross rift. I generally think this guy needs a look at in general, not just considering purely Limbo. The Severed Warden is in similar boat, but its far far far less annoying by itself: unlike slinky, it doesn't gain immunity to being banished, but still has banish duration on itself drastically reduced. If it was half, it would be problematic but manageable. I also heard someone complain that Tharx units in Duviri work similarly (I can't test personally, as I don't have them scanned) and I would really consider removing this trait. We are not talking about halved duration, we are talking like 95% of the duration removed. If not removed, make it halved pls? And don't make them immune to it afterwards. Edit: At some point, it seems DE changed how slinky interacts with banish, thus, now interacts with rift like most enemies do. Unfortunately, its laser and massive magnetic AoE still dont care about what plane you are on. The rouge arcocanid's magnetic pulse also works this way, which is quite annoying and makes no sense to me. I don't think these attacks should be treated like abilities, but like any other weapon attack. Casting Speed: Tho, this is fixable with yellow shards, base limbo animations still feel a bit too slow. Speeding them up by 20 - 30 % should be considered, as installing amber shards/casting speed mods feels like a band-aid. On Stasis: I'm gonna leave this as a final "mandatory" change as it can be a bit debatable, tho i am on the side of it being implemented: with every update we get more enemies that completely ignore this ability. While it completely freezing all enemies all the time is obviously broken and can make the game unengaging, there should be some effect. Make enemies immune to stasis be slowed for somewhere between 30 - 50%. You can make it a flat unchanging value or you can make it scale with strength, I don't care which route is chosen (tho it should have a fixed minimum in other case). My argument for this is that overguard is more and more prevalent in each update which impacts Stasis' usability. And I'm not talking purely on survivability part, im talking on Stasis remaining active in general. For people that don't know, stasis has a maximum amount of projectiles it can freeze before it collapses, and having 10 overguarded enemies constantly shooting breaks this thing in 3 or 4 seconds. Slowing their rate of fire this way would make this less of an issue. Biggest offender for this is duviri defense. It spawns an obscene amount of eximus units, making stasis and by proxy, limbos main tool for defense obsolete. It also impacts limbo's survivability, but argument for shield gating can be made, even tho, id argue that his whole rift mechanic should be a replacement for him in that aspect and maybe even enforced over shield gating, for the sake of diversity. We already have some abilities having nerfed cc on overguard instead of plainly ignoring it (example: Rhino's Stomp). If anything, this change should be considered for overguard purely. So, since DE decided to nerf all cc that affected overguard for some kind of lame consistency (while some more problematic ones are left unchecked for years), there is now no mechanic to justify this function. Clearly, this is now considered unintentional behavior and there is no hope left for such change. I will put some more thoughts about this towards the end of the post. 2. Would be nice: Revert Stasis nerf: The Stasis nerf was made back in the day when overguard didn't exist, purely cause it made debatably monotone and boring event even less engaging. It's time to remove Sentient's ability to "adapt" to it as it makes no sense logically either. Considering there are already enemies that resist 95% of Banish's duration, this aspect is just a big #*!% YOU for no reason. There are so many other ways to battle Stasis now days anyway, having this is redundant. Banish Hold-function on any button: This one is mostly to add to build flexibility with helminth system. Holding any of his abilities would preform hold function of Banish. Incorporating Rift Torrent into Rift Surge: Some other mains would disagree with this, but my reasoning for this change is that most ability oriented DPS frame also have a weapon boosting ability. Even most supporting frames do as well, which Limbo is lacking. I also consider this augment mandatory on any build utilizing Rift Surge. Rift Torrent Buff snapshot: It would be nice if the weapon buff didn't diminish with every kill immediately, but if instead it worked a bit like cascadia flare, meaning the maximum damage of that cast would linger for some time. By no means is this change necessary, it would just give a bit of consistency. Rift Surge now jumps to the closest enemy outside the rift: I was wrong on this one. I assumed this was they way jumps worked, but they don't. Surge in fact jumps to a random enemy outside the rift in a certain range. No matter how I think about it, I cant find a good reason why it was made this way and it seem no one else could either. No matter how one thinks about it, it jumping to the nearest one is in every scenario more useful. And its such a little thing. It's a nice consistency change, yet not one that would drastically change him to the point he is broken. 3. Uncooked ideas: Surge banish on allies: This one is I think an interesting idea, but seems to be a bit of a boon and bane scenario. It goes back to considering how to fix rift's limited availability to allies. The idea is that ally could wait next to the surged enemy in the rift and wait for its radial banish to proc to enter the rift. This could tie in very nicely with larger range limbos in squads that wouldn't disrupt either player's goals. The problem here with this is that some players wouldn't want to be randomly dragged into the rift, even more often than from purely walking into Banish by accident. It could also get very visually overwhelming. I think this idea is now developed better under the "Changing the passive" point under mandatory changes. Adding more to Rift Over the years, the rifts primary function has been eroded thanks to eximus rework, prevalence of overguard and general design of enemies. A lot of things now hit cross-rift. The whole gimmick of the rift was that Limbo, a paper thin warframe is absolutely safe in his realm. The rift got nerfed, but Limbo wasn't compensated stats wise. To be fair, that would be a lazy fix if he was. I like the idea of a paper thin warframe, but within his realm, he is invincible. Now, the counter point to this is that this godhood becomes boring and stale as it removes engagement and challenge from the game. With that in mind, i am fine with things staying the way they are. But I'd like some compensation for this. I recently decided to try Rapid Resilience on my Limbo while thinking about this. And it felt really comfy. From this experience, i'd like to propose Limbo gaining more little survivability additions to his rift. Things like reduced status duration on Limbo while in rift, increased shield recharge, decreased recharge delay, something little like that, just to make it a bit more comfortable to play. The one id really like to see added is knockdown immunity in the rift. This wasn't a problem before eximus rework, but now it can get very annoying at certain missions. Installing Primed Meme Footed is an option, but having it as part of the rift would be really appealing. I'd like to be able to install other exiluses on a frame very flexible with his builds. This relatively small changes restores some of the Rift's original intent, yet it doesn't go as far as its old version of potentially making it unengaging with the game. 4. Augment changes and ideas Cataclysm Augment: The current version of this augment is absolutely and completely pointless. I have never heard anyone justifying the whole mod slot for this effect, when recasting the ability itself is so much better already. I'd rather see something along these lines: Hold Cataclysm to create a zone with half the range that doesn't shrink over time. This one would tie in nicely when creating a generalist build for Limbo. You can both have a massive area for enemies themselves or a small bubble focused on defending the objective. This one would be extremely useful in something like Circuit. On-kill radial banish trigger: I can see this one conditionally very useful in some helminth builds, especially ones choosing to change Banish. As much as this isn't recommended, this would still open doors for more build variety. It would also snugly tie in with if holding any ability preformed the hold function of banish. This also shouldn't work on every kill, as I'm pretty sure that is a fast way to crash your game. Wording should be something along the lines of : "killing every X-th surged enemy triggers surge's radial banish" or "killing a surged enemy has a chance to trigger its radial banish". As for which ability would this augment be? It could be a 2nd augment for Rift Surge, it could be the only augment for Rift Surge if the original is implemented into the ability, it could be a stasis augment if you word it something along the lines of "Every X-th enemy under stasis affected by rift surge preforms its radial banish" or again "has a chance to preform", whichever way its chosen to work. Stasis bank: This idea is courtesy of Sci-Fi_Freak_YT and Darkumineru The concept is similar to Tesla bank. When an enemy enters the rift, there is x% chance that they will be primed. When killing the primed enemy that is under stasis, it would explode dealing void damage in Y range equal to enemy's HP at the moment they entered rift. Explosion would go cross rift and would deal double damage to enemies inside the rift. Plane Fusion: Cataclysm augment. This one takes inspiration from Fred_Avant_2019's proposal to Cataclysm changes. Cataclysm will store damage dealt to the enemies. When it ends or is manually detonated, it will release that damage. This is the base premise. There are couple of direction this augment could be taken to after this. The range could be fixed to maybe 5m further than its smallest range (at its end), it could be equal to max range, but with some heavy fall-off damage, it could be a few meters bigger than the range at which it was detonated with again some fall-off, or exact range at which it was detonated... Absorbed damage could be % of damage dealt, it could be distributed evenly to all enemies in the range...there are many ways this one could be balanced. I think the general idea sounds pretty fun and could be cool augment which would change his playstyle a bit. One of the most popular change people ask for is the interaction between Cataclysm and Nullifier bubble. It suggests that nullifier would simply nullify the rift on itself and enemies inside its bubble instead of popping the bubble itself. I am not very bothered by how this works personally and i think is quite manageable as it is. It wouldn't really make sense in cases of consistency in interaction nor logically. Frost's Globe is also completely deleted when it touches the nully bubble. Thematically it wouldn't make sense since cataclysm is an unstable tear in reality, constantly collapsing. Having something disruptive touch it would in fact immediately collapse it. In my opinion, as annoying as it can be, its fine as it is. Simply play with less range in corpus missions and you should be golden. On overguard: Sadly, it seems that DE considers overguard a great and fun "difficulty" increasing mechanic and is treating it as such. But it really isn't. It does make things more challenging, sure, but in a very unfun way. We are literally having our tools for dealing with a problematic enemy/group yanked right out of our hands, out of which some frames extremely rely on to survive and play the actual game. Overguard wasn't so problematic when it was exclusively an eximus mechanic, at that time, it fulfilled its function. But now, it's destroying the experience for a big number of warframes. This is not exclusively limbo problem sadly, its generally a problem without which the game would be far more fun. For as far as i can remember, DE generally doesnt have a great track record when it comes to making difficulty mechanics: most of them fulfil the idea of making things harder, but in a very unfun and annoying way. A lot of times, even to the point some frames are very unrewardingly hard to play. I really want DE to tackle this problem. A simple solution of overguard being exclusively eximus mechanic fixes a major flaw that game is currently facing. Please DE, do something about overguard, its literally killing important parts of your game! Would these changes make Limbo meta? I dun kno, probably not. But I'm not writing this with this as a goal. I don't think every frame should be meta, they should be fun and functional in the 1st place. If you want your meta room killer to grind 0.2% power increase, be my guest, but don't try to turn every frame into this kind of tool. To me, Warframe is firstly and foremost a sandbox game. You have so much freedom in creating a unique build that can work, that is far more fun to me than reaching max possible grind efficiency. And even if you enjoy the hard on most efficient grind, taking a step back and picking the frame for purely having fun is very nice once in a while. This is everything I can think of so far. I will ask people who want to comment on this thread to leave any Limbo hate bias out of their arguments as they tend to not be very helpful in resolving his core issues. Also, please avoid talking about major ability changes, as the point of this thread is to refine his current kit, not change it. I'd also like to encourage any Limbo enjoyer and main to add some of their ideas, gripes, critique etc... A lot of this text is purely my opinion, but after going through couple of threads talking about him and considering my experience with the frame, I consider this one to be most relevant so far(of the ones I actually saw). I won't take credit for coming up with all the ideas mentioned here, as i have seen other people's opinions and had discussions about them before, I am simply compiling some that I feel are most relevant and adding my own too. I will update this thread with more stuff if I remember anything else and if I see good ideas that I think would tie in well with his current state. I want this thread to be something developers can look at and have sound information on what should be looked at and considered and perhaps a bit of a push for implementation. I will also ask developers if they see this to take these into major consideration. I understand some of these changes would take quite some time and already stretched resources, but their implementation would I feel refresh not just the frame but game as well. I thank anyone who decided to read this massive wall of text and took the time of their day to do so.

The only valid suggestion you r making here is the rift clarity. Your idea for tweaking his abilities literally break the flow of his gameplay. The point of hold function on banish is so you can use the effect of surge. it was less annoying than banishing a single surged enemy to drag like 3 more around him. Just hold banish and bring in like 30 more enemies. Making Surge a channel has anti-synergy with rift passive, which gives energy regen and energy on kill, which channeled abilities disable. Making it "spores like" is pointless since it already functions in that way. The reason cataclysm shrinks is that once a surged enemy OUTSIDE of the rift touches the bubble and leaves it, it propagates the "rifting" of the enemies beyond cataclysms range. Its way more controlling while already functioning in a similar way. Having stasis be a slow makes it a wacky gloom. The Cataclysm casting on limbo himself would be a major nerf to how he works. Having small bubble cast 30 meters away from u allows you to shoot enemies in the bubble AS LONG as u r in the rift as well. This is one of the builds that allows limbo to be played in pubs while not being so much of a "nuisance".

Is it technically possible to compensate lost drops in the Alchemy somehow?

You give few nice ideas, but as someone whose most played frames are limbo and limbo prime, i dont like the majority of this overhaul: I dont like the way you approached the griefing aspect of his kit, that being enemy denial. This rift mechanic even in this state removes a lot of interactions and identity of limbo. Instead of changing rift mechanics on itself, i think you should rather think of how to make the mechanic more accessible for other players around limbo, give them a consistent and easy way to enter and leave the rift. Visual effect feedback is as old as time itself now and i fully agree with this one His casting animations were mostly fine before the introduction of overguard. Most enemies that would unfreeze would be knocked down from banish/rift surge. But since overguard ignores these, yeah, u could get RARELY one-tapped while recasting stasis, but its also rare cause of shield gating/rolling guard. I wouldnt personally mind if the cast time was reduced by about 25%. Banish idea is so and so. I dont usually feel like its an issue that u mentioned above, but having that small radial banish is something i wouldnt complain about it. The whole reason DE halved the duration on his stasis was probably to discourage it being a set and forget ability It also increases the energy limbo spends as well, but eh, whatever. Making it a channel would rectify this. And i agree with DE on this one. Managing stasis is part of the fun imo. And you dont usually want stasis on all the time. It would #*!% with enemy flow in the mission, especially if you play constantly inside cataclysm and spamming rift torrent for dmg. When it comes to slow on it, eximus in themselves arent too much of an issue. They become an issue when there is so many of them just like in a circuit defense, cause gun projectiles just disable stasis all the time cause there is so many of them. In that regard, yeah, i think stasis should have some kind of slowing effect on overguarded enemies since you are unable to clear them as quickly as they spawn to keep stasis up. Im not too keen on it scaling with power strength, id rather have it as a flat value. Rift surge is actually pretty useful, more than people realize it. Is it kinda simple and underwhelming, yet complicated? Yeah, id say so. They change you propose doesnt sound bad, it would absolutely make efficiency a dump stat on limbo, which thx to his passive, already kinda is (but not rly). It sounds a bit too powerful the way u implemented it, so id maybe put a cap on how much regen it can give. Other thing that could be done is implement its augment into the ability itself. This would be very useful and open a slot for limbo, as playing him without this augment on sp is like shooting urself in the foot imo. Augment could become ur idea in that case, or rift torrent could be changed a bit to retain the highest value for some time, instead of instantly dropping the buff when you kill something. Even in its current state, the augment is still very usable, this would be more of a "feels good" change. With all that said, im pretty contempt with it as is right now. I dont think cataclysm needs any real changes other than its augment. You use the combination of Banish and Rift surge when it comes more mobile gameplay and u can also just simply recast it, its not a big deal. The thing u propose would make more sense if the ability didnt shrink over time. The issue you have with enemies entering/leaving constantly is fixed by simply having rift surge on them. Then, you are free to shoot them from cataclysm for almost as long as you want. Cataclysm needs changes on how it interacts with some of the enviromental stuff and to its augment as its completely useless. The guy above mentioned it being fixed on the player, which would be one of the neat augment ideas for a mobile kind of play. One of the biggest problems when it comes to new players picking up limbo is that its not noted anywhere in the game that you can HOLD banish to banish ALL rifted enemies, no matter where. You can also keep track if you have any banished enemies by looking at banish ability icon: If there is a countdown on it, someone is banished somewhere, even in banishment was done by rift surge's radial banish.