BoredFinno

Main post updated. This one irons out some of the points outdated since the thread was created. The following changes have been made:

There was either some last moment decisions after the Dev Short, or maybe she didn't understand the magnitude of the nerfs they were implementing. I really doubt this was done with any malicious intent, no one would profit for one in this case. I still hate how dead set on LoS they are. Even after giving it a benefit of the doubt, even tho it works and is playable, it still feels awful for all the reasons in the original post.

From what i understand and looking at what Steve used to do on the positions, she is more in charge of general game direction, art direction, story direction and so on. She probably has her hands in gameplay as well, but i dont think she is deep enough to be the one who makes a final say in balance related stuff.

The beam from Tenet Flux Rifle spasms when fired with Dante. I assume its only with Tenet version as its beam isnt actually a beam, but i dont own the normal version to test it.

Main post updated. For those who have already read it and don't want to go over entire thing again:

So the discussion Darkumineru and i had was about a single point: cross-rift gun damage. I was personally always against this solution for few reasons: I think it undervalues the whole mechanic of the rift I don't think it would be enough to fix the multiplayer problem. Not everyone sure is like this, but people are still very touchy when someone is touching their weapon's damage. I think because of this, people would still leave squads with limbo for the pure fact that he basically automatically reduces their damage by 50%. Some people talked to about this implementation already confirmed they would act in this way. This kinda discourages interaction with the rift, as you can basically ignore it It kinda feels like a cheap, band-aid fix Darkumineru did imply that this change should be done with the dash one as well and did point out some valid problems with dash part itself. His argument is also that this makes people choose to interact with Limbo's mechanics. I disagree with this. If frame is bringing a unique mechanic to the table, players should be encouraged to engage with it. Problem arises when this mechanic becomes too annoying to interact with. Having different mechanics is part of the game and if its done to be not as intrusive, it can be actually fun. It shakes up the game as well. The game also shouldn't always tailor to the player how they want to play; what would be the point of challenges like Deep Archimedea or sorties. In light of that, again, i think rift should be made more accessible to other players. It provides a little bit of support and some survivability as well, which are already valuable. The whole discussion started me thinking on even more solutions to make rift more accessible, to not cuck gun focused frames. This is something I came up with: Surge's radial banish has a chance to spawn a tear in reality, just like limbo's passive does. The chance should be based on the amount of enemies affected by it, as to if you have 2 enemies, its more likely to spawn 1 from those 2 enemies to again, avoid cucking. Ofc, min chance should be capped and not scalable. Allies, and only allies can use this to enter the rift, for a limited time. Might as well gain a some % of torrents buff, to encourage this even more. Would it be simply by touching as its now, or by using the interaction button, thats more down to testing imo. I think this creates a little mini-game of seeking those out, if they are made to spawn within reasonable range(maybe one tear every 10m) which enables the gun frames to interact with rifted enemies and encourages them to do so. Tears would of course have to last for a much more reasonable time(maybe even until surge's banish is again triggered). This was also the original design of the dash tear i imagine, but this one is too annoying for a fast paced game. With this change, i don't think dash for everyone would even be required anymore. We came to conclusion that we agree to disagree. To be fair, i am not understanding really what Darkumineru's argument was that making rift more available isn't enough, from what i understand, its that people don't want to interact with this mechanic out of laziness or inflexibility to slightly alter their playstyle, but please correct me if i misunderstood, this one is on me. Mostly just want to hear your input in this idea in general and maybe your arguments why "for" this change over something else, like this. I do agree with most of the things you talked about, but i generally think overguard needs to change for the health of the game in general, even tho that might be a different discussion all together. It is definitely a fix for its current state, but not a needed one if they decide to revisit overguard, which i really hope they do, as a lot of discussion has been had about it lately.

Ever since latest Plague Star, I noticed Vitrica now has a weird yellowish swing trail that doesn't change color according to one's energy color. I thought at the time that its probably a bug and it will be fixed some time soon. But it hasn't. I've checked some older videos of the weapon to make sure im not going mad and as i expected, it didnt exist back then. This is one of my favorite melee weapons and this yellowish trail is pretty distracting and i haven't used the weapon as much ever since for this reason.

I made a thread of what his rework should have been imo, that both keeps the old hydroid's functions while also not touching how the new ones works. I dont want to get deeper into hydroid in a limbo thread, if you want to read it, to truly see where im coming from, you can prob dig it up through my profile, heck, dm me if you want to, ill dig it up for you. His 1 isn't a priming tool, its a killing tool now, and it does not synergize with his 4 as you want some range on it, yet building range automatically removes that synergy with his one. What should have been done with he puddle has been done with inaroses sandstrom.

Far from it. It's well thought out no matter how you look at it. Every ability flows into one another. Random enemy sure is unreliable, i've been thinking why it was made this way. No matter how you look at it, transferring to the closest unrifted enemy seems to make way more sense no matter how you look at it. But thats the whole change this ability needs. I stand by saying your proposal should be an augment. It's not my point, its a fact. Doing it with 1-3 combo takes way more time and way more energy. It also takes some engagement with the kit instead of just casting a single ability. It also doesn't contradict it, as surge affects enemies within limbo's range, not every rifted enemy anywhere. There is still a limit to how far this goes unless you are moving. And surprise, its 9m bigger at base than cataclysm, for this reason. So you want to tell me you wouldn't rather spend 50 energy to quickly tap 2 twice to allow cordon to group enemies, or let them move slightly towards where they need to be? Be my guest, go through triple casting banish and surge. Oh right, didn't your idea make surge trigger on kill instead? Either way, both cost way more energy, way more time and you really sometimes just want to slightly move enemies. Its not that rare either, but sure, not that often too. Shield gate allows you to take that hit. I'd rather preserve this option personally. Also, making it the default state of rift sounds a bit too strong to me. There is a fine line between enjoyable micro-managing and obnoxious one. As i said, i think limbo is plenty engaging as he is currently. Im constantly pressing all 4 buttons with him. Adding more would feel overwhelming and would be a sure one way ticket to carpal tunnel. And you say this about hydroid because you don't understand what he lost. Puddle wasn't supposed to be removed, it needed a sandstorm treatment. It was a trap for anyone inexperienced with him, as they would simply think that his gameloop is to stay in puddle. By losing puddle, hydroid lost a good way to group and bombard enemies, Puddle was the exact range of his one. He lost the possibility to group his tentacles, puddle did that. Now, you cant choose between a choke point bombardment or wide area lockdown, akin to divine spears. This is quite annoying as it slows defense type missions without any way for him to end it prematurely. His 4 now has no synergy with his 1 as their ranges dont match at all. One cant argue that he isn't strong now, but he fall more under "rushed rework because of his state" that you mentioned at the start. He became a bland weapon's platform, or a "caster" that simply spams one ability over and over, until that single button dies. Thats not engaging, thats braindead. If anything was meant to be taken out for plunder, its tidal surge.

The changes themselves would make, even at the current state of the eximus, Limbo way more comfy to play. That said, I completely agree with you that overguard isn't healthy for the game and needs revisiting. Its a completely different discussion tho, but how prevalent its becoming and how little tools are left to deal with it, im not liking its current direction at all (looking at out challenge that gives every enemy overguard). I will leave my stance below on it from another thread if you have any interest in reading it (or anyone else), as i think the tragedy 35.5.3 made this discussion a priority one:

Again, ideas that actively disable his original intent and design. His 3 abilities do the same thing as their intent is to enable a really safe playstyle, to generally reduce the amount of time limbo spends in material plane, as rift is his unique way of "tanking". Everything that is present in his kit is very well thought out and put in for a reason. Can we argue that Rift lost it's master survivability? Sure. This just means things can be added to Rift itself, like reducing status duration on limbo while in rift, giving some dr, silencing abilities of enemies inside rift, possibilities are endless. Forcing a non-dps frame to rely on a kill to enable his gameloop is not a good idea. It removes the main, most broken combo of propagating banishment through banish -> rift surge -> hold banish -> rift surge -> hold banish to cover the whole tile in rift. This combo requires one to be present in material plane ONLY ONCE and changing this functionality hurts his survivability. Don't let me start on how its current function actually allows limbo to play against nullyfiers. This should be an augment if anything, on this i can agree, but completely changing how it currently work is a bad idea, also cause of its interaction with cataclysm. Speaking of which: There are couple of reasons cataclysm works like this: Discourages "set-and-forget" playstyle Propagates Banishment of the enemies beyond cataclysm's range in combination with rift surge To question, why would anyone want the 2nd scenario? Well, most of you ppl seem to take issue with how enemies keep being in and out on the edges cause its shrinking constantly; surge helps with that and is again a reason why the change to "on-kill" isn't good. Cataclysm will never be changed to not shrink or god forbid even expand because of the 1st clause i wrote, so this is the next best thing. And as to "oh, but its so annoying, no one else can shoot the enemy then and he is frozen far away and is halting the defense", yeah, no S#&$. What do u think banish hold function is for? If they are in this scenario, its not kit's problem, its players skill issue. Pay attention to the battlefield and use the kit as it was intended. As for killing, its really not that hard to stand in cataclysm and shoot your gun outside of it. This again comes down to not understanding how rift works. Great idea, this change alone would make limbo the most undesirable teammate in 80% of the content, even more than he already is. He actually is because most Limbos keep this active all the time, instead of turning it on and off depending on the state of the battlefield. Limbo's kit on itself can run out of control on its own and limbo needs all the tools to get it back in line/under control. Yeah, we can change the damage type of his abilities, but it wont do much for him as his ability damage is piss-low. Forget about overguard deterioration, its clear DE doesnt want abilities with no damage to interact with overguard in any ways possible. Yeah, sure. Problem with expanding what limbo can do with it makes his playstyle unbearably active, hence why his base kit is fine as it is. As i said before, sure, adding something more to boost rift's survivability, like silencing enemies inside of it, or reducing status duration on limbo while in rift. Notice how these suggestions all try to build on the original idea of the rift? Rift is 1st and foremost a unique survivability tool. Good rework consists on building onto what is already present and reinforcing the original intent. If you take a look at most of warframe's reworks, they all fall within this rule (except hydroid's, while he is a powerhouse now, his synergies were destroyed in the rework, removing the control over his kit he used to have, thus why i consider it not a good rework). Limbo's kit at first glance deceives most new players think that he is very much a set and forget frame. It doesn't help that people even refuse to understand it and just immediately call it disruptive. Generally, his disruptiveness comes from lack of experience and understanding from both sides. You need to pay attention to where enemies are frozen, you need to unfreeze them, you need to control your kit, lest your kit controls. What is the saying again, "fire is a great servant, but ruthless ruler", (idk, we at least have a saying that goes something along those lines).

I am addressing here what shouldn't be part of his "rework". Hell, he doesn't need one. I made a whole thread on what he actually needs, even with current state of overguard. He interacts with rift enough, we dont have to complicate every kit or make it as complex as dante's is. Thats one of my main issues with most reworks. They either water down rift itself, or completely change what limbo is or overcomplicate his kit. Limbo is fine as he is, he needs tweaks, not rework. If he gave energy to everyone in the rift, it would be plain overpowered. It works for limbo as his abilities deal little to no damage, giving this kind of power to to other frames in addition to the amount of battlefield control limbo brings, he would literally be the best frame ever to ever exist. Oh, and nullyfier thing? U build around it and bring right equipment. Thats it. As for what i'd do, there is a whole thread, couple of weeks old at this point. Give it a read, if u havent already General feedback i can give is, you are creating so much work code wise which shrinks the possibility of it ever being implemented, you are complicating the gameplay to make it more annoying for no greater benefit and you are watering down rift instead of building on its unique survivability aspect. All of this i already gave you as feedback in the post above. I will reiterate again. Its not limbo that needs all his abilities looked at, its overguard in general, for the sake of all cc abilities. Edit: i will add that maybe changing his damage type would be beneficial, but with his piss low dmg, i dont think its consequential

No, just no. Your rework like so many just kill his identity and playstyle, removes flavor and makes him similar to so many other frames. You are also trying to bend rules on an ability type just to fit Limbo. This literally undervalues any point of Rift and 2 dimensions existing. I talked about this before, rift itself isnt the problem, its its availability to other squadmates. This just makes him a worse Harrow, with exactly same problem as him. Rift is supposed to be a supportive mechanic, it rewards ALL players for interacting with it, not just Limbo. It's issue is as said before how unavailable it is to allies without cataclysm and general lack of information or understanding how to use limbo. Problem with this also is that you are forcing a non-dps, weapons platfrom frame to kill enemies in a game where most of the times, you are playing with someone who is gonna wipe the whole map by just looking at a tile; just like Harrow. I'm not sure what you mean by chain banish. Banish as it is is completely fine and doesn't need any touching. Also disagree with helminth version. While its extremely niche, its not absolutely useless and one can make some specific builds with it. Allowing every frame to use rift in this way again undermines Limbo's value and uniqueness. Having some extremely niche abilities is absolutely and completely fine, not everything needs to be useful in every scenario. You won't use a hammer to unscrew a screw. So, how would this actually work? You can regenerate energy at all times, or when nothing is affected by it? If its the former, you are bending the rules of how channeled abilities work and if its the latter, what is the point of it being a channel? Generally latter part of the rework also makes me question what the actual combo and control is with this. I really don't see what even is the benefit of turning this into a channel. Especially since everything else you mentioned is based on duration. And again, we want to walk away from abilities that drain energy per enemy, look at equinox: she is literally gutted cause her ability is just a worse gloom. They removed puddle completely and reworked grendel's feast just so we dont have any more of these, as they are not fun to upkeep and are generally problematic to maintain. And why would you want to make cold procs closer to eximus units? This just puts a paper thin frame in more of a potential danger. Why not have it applies to any eximus under stasis? Rift is supposed to be limbo's unique way of tanking, y undermine that? Let's also mention that all abilities that affected overguard no longer do, for the sake of some band aid consistency. Its not the ability that should change for the sake of overguard, its overguard that has to change for the sake of many other cc reliant frames. So, you basically are adding tribute to Limbo. Many issues i take from this: Cycling through Tribute and rebuffing with it is already so damn annoying, most ppl just use one of the 3 Rift guard is a straight rip-off of Citrine's ability. Its not unique, it undermines the unique form of limbos tanking and is generally uninspiring to have ANOTHER 90% DR frame. It makes it stale. Game needs diversity to remain fun. Generally having Rift Torrent separate from rift surge is questionable. You want to have surge to keep enemies in the rift, but you dont have damage bonus(in case of your rift surge version) to do it efficiently? Whats the point? If anything, this destroys the fluid gameplay of Limbo for something that i cant even see what the point of the change is. I can't see the fluid game loop here. Having rift surge in this way, idk... Generally one would want to have this on for fluid gameplay, but then they sacrifice potential damage buff which is usually a must on a frame or a damage reduction, whose point i already can't see since being in a different plane already protects you from most things, other than eximus abilities and some rare units. It also defeats the surge's utility. Surge as it is is great when you really want to lock something in, like interception, because its condition isnt for something to die, its for something to leave rift to propagate. It also helps keep the game loop going as you wouldn't have to dash in and out constantly because you killed the last enemy in the rift while not surrounded by any more, as the current version will have an enemy ready a bit further, on who you can again recast the surge and keep urself within the safety of the rift. It removes one of the most important tools in limbos kit for battlefield control, which is limbo's whole identity. This one is at least in the typical DE style, a band aid, costing a mod slot that could be used for something else, more fun. Why would you add this hold function when it's as easy to recast it? This also promotes a limbo playstyle that id like people to grow out of, purely in Cataclysm fighting. This ability has so much more utility than haha big bubble cover everything, fight in it. While nullyfiers are annoying, I don't think they shouldn't pop Cataclysm. It would make no sense in consistency and thematically. Frost's bubble is insta popped when it touches a nully. So is gara's wall. Cataclysm is literally an unstable tear in space-time having something disrupt it should make it pop, as again, its unstable. Can't complain about arbi drones and necramechs counting as within rift while in cataclysm. This augment never had any use, buffing it is meaningless. Having its range reset would again promote the non-primary idea of how one plays limbo. This is an interesting one. Issue i have with it is that it kinda dumbs his kit down and kinda automates it. We can salvage some of the ideas tho in a different concept. We could, as limbo is a master of his dimension, give him some dr while he is in the rift as part of the passive, but this doesn't remove the underlying problem he currently has. His current kit is fine as it is, problem is generally where cc is at this point in time, and instead of looking at limbo, we should look at eximus units and overguard itself, not for the sake of only Limbo, but any frame that relies on CC. Your rework generally removes what makes limbo unique, while making him 3x more complicated for no real good reason, so its a hard pass for me. This isn't to say he doesn't need some touch ups, he definitely does, but is all he needs - some touch ups. I can't complain about asking for visibility rework, this has been asked for over and over again and is very much needed at this point.

No offense, but i think this falls more under "gone completely insane". Lemme break it down why i think so: For one, this falls under "full blown rework" category, which in the 1st place isn't needed, it does change Limbo farther from his identity and is something i asked to be avoided in the original post. He really doesn't need anything more than as u said "Stasis and Cataclysm" being his entire thing which already isn't true. The example with condemn u mention is not a good example, as: Condem is directional Condem doesnt keep you save in the same way Rift + Stasis do, you can still be shot at by new enemies He also doesnt need more to as u said "his entire thing" cause rift is his ultimate survivability tool and this is something that should if anything be enforced even more. Its an unique way of tanking, not present on any other frame, and its fun and cool. This also flows into proposition of ur new ability: making everything sped up defeats the safety of the rift, it in facts makes it more dangerous, as there is little benefit for limbo to be outside of the rift in the 1st place. And if you want to argue that you can be in material plane while speeding enemies in the rift, you still have to shoot sped up enemies, for which, you need to be in the rift! Entropy also has the same problem, as it forces you to exit the safety zone as a paper thin warframe to cast an ability and be vulnerable for that time, which, again, we already have many ways limbo is vulnerable even in his current state, so absolute safety of the rift is not an issue at all. On saving an ability slot, limbo is already pretty active in his casting, if one uses his whole kit and not just stasis + cataclysm. Having more abilities to manage is just going to be a massive pain. I think banish and surge are completely fine as separate abilities and should remain that way. Weapon platform caster is in fact quite an unique identity, not very present on other frames. Most weapon platform frames have either a duration based weapon buff, or a channel, for it to be set and forget. Limbo can't be that passive as he has to constantly move his cataclysm or redo the banish surge combo for his loop to function. Stasis might be the only set and forget and again, you might not always want to keep it for its full duration. The interesting idea you had and I like is the cataclysm storing damage done to the enemies, this would be fun to see, but I'm still reluctant on if it should be a thing, i will definitely give it some more thought.

His biggest benefit for fighting in the rift is his survivability. I do think a weapon steroid should be part of his base kit, which I addressed in those surge changes propositions. The randomness of surge would be managed with changes to radar as it gives you information that someone is not where they should be and you have to do something about it. That said, having a damage bonus within Rift's passive is definitely a valid direction as well. Mentioning the randomness of surge, u made me start thinking why does it jump to a random enemy outside the rift and not the closest one? I'm struggling to find a good reason even tho I'm sure its intentional, as everything in his kit is. Thinking about it, it seems to me at the moment that jumping to closest enemy outside of the rift has more benefits than its current state.

I already said this in couple of posts, but I'm gonna try to repeat this for as long as there is some hope left that devs will reconsider: The current Tragedy nerfs are stupid form both satisfaction and game design angle. Part of the "feels good" impact and use came from the fact that this has big range and doesn't care about terrain. And in a power fantasy game, this should be one of the main factors to consider when designing an ability - that its satisfying and it feels good. From a game design perspective, this is stupid, as design of the ability was mean to be a "cash-in " button for actually combo-ing things and playing the game. And mind you, its power is conditional and conditional things should be strong, as they work UNDER CONDITIONS, of which Tragedy already has couple. Complaining about its power is also ludicrous when there are already similar abilities, or ones that nuke harder, for little to no setup at all. Tragedy's power is already conditionally gated with LoS even before the change, as Dark Verse, the main way to prime the target, already has LoS and is not all around you, its directional. Adding another LoS to this is ludicrous. Tragedy is most similar to Catalyze: they both require setup, they both have a big range, they both deal massive damage and until yesterday, both didn't care about walls. This was absolutely, and completely balanced. You could argue that Tragedy requires less setup, but trust me, difference in scaling more than enough compensates for that. If it doesn't, we are still looking at the wrong thing to adjust. There is also energy cost to consider: no matter how easy the setup is, it still spends a major resource to set-up and cash in. Complaining about this thing being too strong is stupid when things like Saryn and Gara exist. Gara can nuke a whole tile with her 4 and terrify and this is considered completely fine. Lets give Saryn's spores LoS and see how well that plays out for her. So, why was Tragedy nerfed in the 1st place? I'm assuming this was cause it was capable of nuking enemies that were not primed at all. If this was the case, we are, again, targeting the wrong aspects of Tragedy. Instead, consider the following: Reducing its base damage to around 2000 or 3000 damage. This will never be able to nuke anything meaningful unless its primed, and would bring it even closer in line with something like catalyze Reducing its base range to 20m or 25m. This way, it makes sure that even if it can nuke with this base damage, its not the whole #*!%ing map. Again, bringing it closer to something like catalyze I'm not saying Tragedy didn't warrant a nerf, but the way the nerf is being handled is far from ideal. Please reconsider the direction you are taking his nerfs. We are not some drooling crybabies that don't know what we are talking about, we play this game more than most of you. Don't be stubborn with our feedback. We all want what's best for the game and math cant be the only thing you consider in that regard. I will personally rather take an even harder nerf to the damage than this LoS bullS#&$. If there is anything good this whole LoS thing created, it pushed you to look at and fix abilities like Fire Blast. Just cause u redid this technology, don't be stubborn to keep in on Tragedy. Implement it else where, its not going to waste. As for the other nerfs, they are decently ok, they fall in line with what you promised on tweaking him down. But this Tragedy change is really problematic.

Once again, you tackling the LoS is pointless in the 1st place as it shouldn't be a thing because: Condition for the nuke is to have a DoT status Easiest way for applying that status is an ability that ALREADY has LoS and can be pointed in a direction Damage depends on the amount of DoT statuses applied, which, again, is usually done with directional methods(shooting the enemy, dark verse) Adding another condition/check for a skill that is already very conditional is stupid and bad game design. It removes satisfaction in a game that is all about it. You are not developing dark souls game, you are developing a power fantasy one. Im not saying there shouldn't be challenge or to let a single frame dominate, but considering how an ability feels should be your priority. And big part of Tragedy feeling good was the fact it had no LoS.

I have no doubt their intention was as they said, especially Reb, she seemed extremely invested in his development. Thing is, Reb is not part of design or balance team, so changes that go through are not her decision and probably already has her hands full with other major stuff she cant be a part of it as well. This kind of thing is more down to Pablo probably.

Greeting everyone. New hotfix came around yesterday and honestly, its one of the most disappointing ones in a while. It's plain frustrating at times even, when some logic is applied on decisions made. So lets talk about it Dante Nerfs: So, this guy might have been too powerful, but rather than maybe waiting another week or so to see where he actually lands, he was immediately nerfed, almost into the ground. Even after the big bravado of "we are threading lightly to preserve his power fantasy and enjoyment", there was mostly none of that present in this. To be fair, most of the nerfs aren't such a big deal, we even got a little buff on one of his abilities. I will even say some were well warranted. But this one single change, even when it no longer will be buggy kills major enjoyment in his playstyle. The decision to make Tragedy LoS was the most awful conclusion they could have came across, especially when considering what else could have been done. So, why is this one of the dumbest changes they made in this update? Lets consider the following: Circular abilities with LoS already have an awful reputation of being inconsistent, like Ember's Fire Blast. Burst of damage is conditional and similar to an already similar skill that another frame has, but that one doesn't have LoS. I'm talking about Lavos. His Catalyze can dish out insane damage within a high range with no terrain restrictions. This skill is limited by its vertical coverage, sure, but even in that context, Tragedy's main primer is 1stly, a CONE and 2ndly, HAS LoS, which is a limit to the skill enough on its nuking potential. There are frames that require much less investment to do the so called "dominant" gameplay. I cant believe we are using this argument when frames like Saryn, Gyre, Gara exist. Saryn being one of the biggest offenders here, being capable of decimating enemies within nanoseconds without even meeting the enemy. If we consider this unfair, why dont we make her spores LoS as well, lets see how that works for everyone, I'm sure it would be well received. Now, I'm not gonna claim Tragedy didn't warrant a nerf, that depends on what its capabilities were compared to what its intention is. It's intention is to obliterate already primed enemies. But instead, it was capable of sometimes killing some enemies that haven't been primed at all. This is a fair point, a combo, conditional burst ability shouldn't be able to do this. But then, what was the appropriate approach? There are 3 in my opinion that are waaay better and that preserve the satisfaction of pressing the button: Halve it's damage: Tragedy at base deals 6500 flat damage purely for pressing the button. This could simply be halved to bring it in line with Catalyze, which is the most similar ability to Tragedy so far. Reduce it's range: With Overextended and Stretch, I achieve a range of 70 meters. That's a lot (no S#&$ Sherlock). Having it at around 50m with 235 range would be a nerf already good enough and it would still be satisfying to cast. Combine the 2: In case and ONLY in case either of those above is not enough, just implement both. Make it's base damage around 3000 and its base range 25m. This would make it still really good but not overly dominant. Part of satisfaction I had with Tragedy was the fact that it didn't have LoS. I feel the LoS change directly attacks the best part about this ability. Moving on from Dante, I wanna attack the Nezha's augment approach as well. Nezha's identity and nerfs: The way this is handled now forces any nezha build that wants to run this augment to build mostly for range and with such high investment in a single stat, for a very low return. It limits build variety and it doesn't feel satisfying to use at all, which in a power fantasy game is one of the most important things to consider imo. And it's a shame, as his 4 was always imo one of the coolest looking abilities. Before, this ability was almost pointless to cast on its own as its utility wasn't as impactful and this augment gave us a reason to actually use it. So, what could have been done? The direction they went in isn't terrible, but its definitely overcompensated. Another area that could have been attacked is the 2nd part of the augment, the status detonation part. What it should have been done is: Instead of 50% base range penalty, 25% or 30% would have been a perfect balance: An average build with 235% range would reach a bit beyond 30m range, which is quite satisfactory for that investment Remove strength scaling from detonation, or even remove detonation part completely: What made this augment even more of a dominant playstyle is that you would build low duration, cast dark verse for example and have its damage immediately multiplied in about 1 sec making it an extremely potent burst, rivaling other nuke frames. Nerfing or removing the multiplier would directly target this kind of playstyle. Alternately, if solutions above is not the path you'd want to take, you could also: Change the ability itself to function similar to Polarize and Pillage: Recoding the ability for the sake of the augment may not be the best approach, but its definitely a valid one. What I mean by this is, turn Divine spears into a wave type ability, similar to ones mentioned. Make it have a halved scalable starting range that expands over time, based on your duration. It would fix the whole augment issue while keeping the base ability mostly unchanged. This way, it would also work similarly to Discharge, where it would take some time to reach furthest enemy, forcing players to wait for the wave to expand fully, or sacrifice priming those targets with the ones closer to Nezha. It would also remove the low duration insta-burst build, as ability's reach now relies on positive duration. I wouldn't want to see Nezha turn into another specialized nuke frame, I think he should remain a generalist good at everything, best at nothing kind of frame and I think the 3rd solution best addresses this. Finally, I want to talk about one of the biggest issue that has been more and more impactful with each patch and has started to catch on some fire especially as of late. Overguard, Disruptor-type Enemies and Slow Decline of Usefulness of Crowd Control: I am a disgusting Limbo main. And no, I don't want to cry how eximus rework killed my frame and how overguard made him obsolete. When eximus rework was 1st introduced, I can't say I was thrilled about their approach, but as time has shown, that was manageable. I could accept that having some danger introduced to a frame like Limbo is healthy and engaging. The problem is that it made an even greater disparity between burst/dps focused frames and cc focused ones. Factor in the fact that many new gamemodes are focused on killing stuff as fast as you possibly can, cc definitely has been put on back burner, but not useless, at all. The point of eximus enemies as far as I'm aware is to force someone to stop what they are doing and immediately swap their focus onto the eximus, as they pose a major threat to the loop. Problem is, they don't. They will die as easily to a saryn spore on the other side of the map as any other enemy, they aren't a threat at all... as long as we talk about dps and nuke frames, or tanks. When this system was still young, you'd have maybe at max 3 eximuses/overguarded enemies at single time in proximity of you. Each update introduced more enemies that have overguard, or give it. The main issue itself isn't eximuses, its overguard. See, CC is also a form of survivability, as much as DR based abilities. And thx to overguard, if you don't have a DR ability or insane nuke, you are in far more danger than most other frames. Some frames rely purely on this cc to keep themselves alive - and I think that's good. It plays into the power fantasy and gives variety to gameplay. Shield gate made that even better, as you'd have a second to cast your cc and recuperate yourself in time enemies are cc-ed. And not every warframe should rely on purely shieldgate or DR abilities. Limbo has one of the most unique survivability tools that is being cucked with each major update more and more. To me, final nail in the coffin was yesterday and I'd assume its the same for a lot of people too. Yesterday, we got Deep Archemidia. One of the conditionals in it were that EVERY enemy gains overguard. And considering that in the same update, most of the abilities that went through it got nerfed in this aspect, this just makes this fact even worse. At one point, we might get a combination of overguarded enemies with energy drain per enemy in 10m from you and them being immune to damage as long as they are outside of 15m of you. This isn't challenge, this is absurd. You could argue "well, just pick an appropriate frame then", but this kinda alienates quite a substantial amount of possible frames, pray to Void you don't draw all 3 from this group. To me, I saw a potential revitalization of cc with Deep Archemidia: a dangerous place that uses combination of cc and dps to fight deadly conditions presented to us. Instead, we got a bigger middle finger than ever in cc department. We instead got a band-aid to consistency at the detriment of already under preforming aspect of the game. For #*!%'s sake, Tips themselves say its best done with organized squad and friends. I'm not saying cc is completely useless, it is not, but its not as useful as it should be and a decent amount of frames suffer cause of it, putting them in a "rework" basket when they don't need one, or leaving them to rot away and be a rare pick for anyone. So, what can we do about this? Thinking about it, flipping overguard would just bring us back to the olden days, where you could basically avoid any danger and turn most missions into a snooze fest, which is also not a good solution. At its current state of the game, I think a compromise has to be made to make cc a desirable tool while preserving some of the danger aspects the current iteration tried to achieve: Overguard now has a 95% damage reduction versus ability damage and is resistant to cc, instead of immune. What do I mean resistant? Let's take an ability like Stasis as an example: currently, it either does something, or does almost nothing(still freezes the bullets, very useful), depending on the overguard. One of the ways this would work is that overguarded enemies actively resist its effect, being slowed instead of frozen. Knockdowns, instead of knocking down would put an enemy in the animation similar to when they are hit with Sound Quake. Knockbacks could make an enemy walk backwards a few steps in a similar animation to shooting gallery. Stuns and blinds could have reduced duration, slows halved effectiveness, so on... This would probably be a massive coding undertaking as it would probably have to be considered for every cc ability we have and with every frame in mind, but once its done, it would be easy to upkeep with new frame releases. It would also shake up the game, revitalize some frames and "bring balance to the force" between DPS and CC. They would finally live in a symbiotic relationship, as they always should have. And with enemies that give overguard to others, it would be very nice to make nullyfier bubbles immune to damage abilities instead of any now. This last hotfix left one of the worst tastes in my mouth in a while. It also fully reveals the slowly festering problem over cc immunity and pure neglection of issues and concerns posed by domination of DPS and overguard. It also makes me questions decisions they make when it comes to nerfs: who is testing them and for how long? And the feeling that decent amount of feedback is ignored doesn't help the case. I'm not saying they are lazy or uninterested, I'm aware most of their resources go towards newer updates and that not many people are left free to clean up some of this mess. What I'd like to see is another year of QoL changes to the game itself and getting some actual valid testers with a decent amount of time to test the changes before they are made live. A return of test servers would be actually beneficial for this game.

Main post updated. For those who have already read it and don't want to go over it again:

Appreciated bud. I will update the main post in an hour or so too, so that helps a ton.

I mean, sure, but i cant see how the former solution fixes this. You would still have to recast his 4, which would again prioritize in ur example ancient healers. Unless you'd want to kill a shadow with a soul punch, then soul punch a desired target. which sounds kinda clunky, especially when you consider that you would need to seek out the shadow u dont want to detonate it. I think what i proposed offers a bit more comfort for a tradeoff, which is by no means ideal, but i think better for everyday use.

Listen buddy, i play a lot of this frame. I use surge daily. Playing limbo without cataclysm is absolutely and completely viable. Its even recommended if u gonna engage with helminth that u swap cataclysm. Surge's implementation is almost perfect as it is. Reason you dont rely on energize is cause u want to stay in the rift for as long as u can, only occasionally popping out if u r out of enemies in the rift or need to pick up life support. That said, is playing limbo without surge possible? absolutely, u could play him in a way to pop a "ptivate" arena on top of the enemies, kill em, and move on to next group. But this is not fully utilizing this frame. Now, for me "dodging" ur question. The question you are asking is already pointless, as i described, ur playstyle changes depending on the mission type. No, i wont cast cataclysm 50 m away from objective in a defense, but i will do it in survival. And removing this would be a major nerf and would really shrink possible builds with limbo. Or perhaps, i will do that with a certain build and playstyle, its possible, viable and fun. Limbo is extremely flexible and diverse in his builds, so much so i cant fit everything i want in all the build configs available. If you feel like you are casting his cata too far away, cast it at your feet. Now, if you cool down and instead of trying to make urself right, calling hills to die on and whatnot, maybe open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong. I can see that you are a veteran player, having 4x my active playtime, but u also have 1% limbo playtime with limbo and limbo prime combined. I have 20%. I play this frame every day. I've been doing so for 6 or so years. I don't tell you how ur protea should be played and that her kit is wrong. Don't do the same to us limbo mains. Instead of getting heated over being called out for being wrong, perhaps ask what is wrong in ur understanding of the frame and ur playstile. If you want to give up on him, u do u. But if u give him a bit more time and actually try to understand him and get creative with ways you play him, you will find that he really doesnt need the changes you proposed and would understand that does actually kill his core design and idea. They water him down and make him similar to already existing frames, instead of a unique case. And unique is usually better. Not at any cost, but usually it is. And if you are annoyed by surge, simply put roar, eclipse or something else over it. Its ur frame, make it work how u like it to work. I have nothing more to add here. This either convinces u or not. Have a nice day and what not.

Yeah, this. Maybe trying to find and target a shadow could be a bit too annoying. Another way to implement this is that simply killing a marked enemy or executing it with this ability would replace your weakest shadow with this enemy. Replaced enemy could still explode, tho you wouldnt really have much of control where this damage is dealt this way. As far as im aware, current version just heals all your shadows when u kill a new marked enemy.

Listen, it's clear that u want the best for this frame, but there is a clear lack of experience and full understanding of this frame: U can't not care about limbo's passive, as this is what makes limbo functions and creates a "dump" stat which every frame kinda needs. In Limbo's case, this is efficiency. As i said, surge is already spores-like, difference being that it doesnt spread to all enemies, it moves to the nearest one, that is in a material plane. I do think its absolutely fine the way it already is. Its practicality is very effective in fact, cause it fixes ur issue with enemies stacking at the edge, making them hard to shoot - it keeps them in the rift plane in case they leave cataclysm. y do i think surge is fine the way it is? if it worked more like spores, you would have enemies 500 meters away frozen somewhere disrupting enemy flow in survivals. Since its range is this way in a way limited to cataclysms, its much more manageable. You talking about cataclysm makes me think you dont fully grasp how 2 planes function. You can cast a small cataclysm 30 meters away at a choke point, to grab a group of enemies at which u shoot, while u r in the rift. I dont understand y do u think cataclysm is purely a safety zone for limbo and objectives. Its literally more of a lingering banish, whose one of the uses is also defense. The way one plays this frame depends a lot on a mission type you are running. You won't use cataclysm the same way in survival as you would in defense. And again, taking this tool away would kill even that possibility of playing limbo in a public squad and not being disruptive to the rest. You are either not experienced enough with this frame or not creative enough. Surge is disruptive only if you choose to use it as a set and forget ability. Banish hold function is also a way for u to not seek out a single enemy stuck somewhere in the rift, waiting for u to kill it to move on with the defense.