geninrising
-
Posts
1,758 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by geninrising
-
-
You yourself went on RANTS about how the new WoF works. You yourself even pointed out the pointlessness of having a toggle-able ability that also has a duration. You yourself got infuriated and was warned by Rebecca for it. And now you think it's good? What?! They upped her survivability, but the effectiveness of her ult (which barely qualified as an ult for the flaws it has), is now limited not only by range and number of active targets hit, but duration as well, ON TOP of power strength. Her entire kit is skewed so far between those many aspects that it's extremely difficult to mod her to make her effective overall. The Ult's actually mod-ability is confusing and hindering at the moment. You already know where to find the proof for that, the megathread is filled with them.
My point of discussion on Ember's ult is that if you build for duration it makes it massively prohibitive to use it. I'm quite fine with it's dps and it's inability to clear whole rooms instantly which is my problem with p42w. I have 0 problems with ults that do not utterly annihilate whole rooms instantaneously and while I feel that other ults that can be used back to back are problematic I feel no need to include Ember's ult in that discussion because it does not cause the problems other ults cause generally. There would be no discussion at all on her ult currently If all other ults were balanced to feel the same. My point of argument on that issue stems from the fact that she simply cannot use all of her kit due to the absolute necessity of applying Accelerant constantly due to durational concerns of WoF. Yes it is possible to turn it off, but before the change WoF did not require extra energy to cast and maintain it. Therefore I could build large duration and cast each 1x while I killed with my gun, using WoF as a simple dps steroid. Now it's not possible to utilize any of my builds(which do not include maximum efficiency).
-
The only problem with that is that it also encroaches on PvE players who'd rather not be forced into PvP.
That's not an issue anymore. PVP now has it's own dedicated team to flesh it out. The bonus side to that is, it is getting it's own complete rebalance game wide for all frames and weapons ^^ I can't wait!
-
I totally agree. Currently it's my belief that Prime frames and weapons should be mastery locked.
Currently the game only has progression through it's mods and the archaic MR system. GIVE MR MEANING!
-
The thing I am thinking about it, what kind of load is it gonna put on the Host with 8 players in the squad...
Chances are it will be hosted instances. DE has already proven they can do it with a plethora of Tenno. I don't think it should be too much of a problem to provide a server for raids only.
-
Ah yeah, we also agree on that front. Holey's posts are definitely out of line here in this situation. Honestly it's beginning to feel like a lost cause to me on that exact front.
Of course that's not to say I'm entirely dropping any of the ideas or concepts that have been thrown around here in regaurds to a change to Rhino which makes him a more interesting frame to play. But these notions of Rhino being blatantly overpowered when he's not are a huge hinderance towards a proper discussion on the matter. It's hard to make progress when someone's spouting clearly broken ideas every step of the way, it leads to the continuing derailment of the discussion basically.
I completely agree with your experiences as well on the matter, what you're saying is notably more valid than Holey's claims as far as the level of tankiness which frames possess as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for Ronyn, which is exactly why I'm inclined to agree with the mathematical stat variables either of you suggest as I figure you both know your stuff.
Hence why I already asked Ronyn if we should just start a fresh one abandoning this post. The problem is that I feel as though holey will move on over too and simply derail the progress that we make or that we will get pigeon holed into a mega thread with him, which would sincerely be a mistake.
-
Now most people get the joke but you know someone read this and was like hey that's a great idea
I'm gonna be ROFLMMAO if powers do not affect any enemies in the raid.
-
Defending 2 pods at the same time.
Defense is a horrible idea for the raid. Let's make a super hard mode doing something Tenno already do to death.
Admittedly though I laughed considering that was my first worry. That DE would call it this great thing and hype the hell out of it only to find it's a wasted opportunity(archwing).
-
Bumping. My initial impressions of the Panthera were pretty good, but both the primary and secondary seem to fall off really quickly, even after the buff to the Ripper mode. I really would like this one go through one more buff/balancing pass rather than become discarded as a mediocre weapon.
Granted I still want to see the Primary fire given more attention, but the Secondary mode could use a bit more range and a more reliable stunlock.
As far as the secondary goes it's well...secondary. The primary fire should be stronger than the base miter shots and should not cost 5 ammo per.
It's just not worth using atm based on those two facts. The item requires a decent weapon in order to obtain a worse weapon. That alone is reason for a buff.
Increase base damage to more than 150(miter's base damage)
Remove ammo mechanic or make it burst fire. Simple easy fix.
-
As long as the 8-player part is optional.
I'm very much looking forward to going into these solo all in Dark Souls mode trying not to die in an environment designed to kill me so hard I fatally die to death.
Actually DE stated that it will REQUIRE 8 players. It's not likely it will be an optional thing, although I hope it will be. I am looking forward to completing it with my 3 closest friends.
-
Hooray, I knew I wasn't crazy. I wasn't using overextended either.
Honestly power Str does not really matter. I built a Blind Rage, Intensify and Transient fortitude build, and enemies still get through. This is easily repro'd vs infested once they start to pile up.
-
I just wanted to get a little feedback from the community regarding DE's statement that 8 man raids will be exceedingly difficult and require great teamwork to complete them.
I for one am ECSTATIC!
In a game that I feel should have a high skill cap, the content is often trivialized through various means, be it ability spam or camping in one way or another. I honestly cannot wait.
Several concerns have been expressed within the following posts.
Difficulty- Surprisingly people here seem to welcome true skill based difficulty barring shallow attempts at pseudo difficulty such as unavoidable damage attacks
Ability Spam- There has thus far been several statements that Abilities will allow us to trivialize the Raid content, we can only hope that DE addresses this in a more creative way than nullifiers.
Stability- This appears to be a major concern for many involved here and should be a major focus.
Edited to include concerns of Stability, Pseudo Difficulty, Ability spam trivializing the combat
-
I... I'm almost thinking there's a sort of miscommunication to a slight degree here. When I say internal balance/frames balanced in comparison to other frames I do not mean balanced on a "frame versus frame" basis.
Thing is though, damage isn't the only statistical value of a given frame. For instance, you note Saryn on that list. She's a notably more sluggish frame (10% below average speed) while having a higher health value. She lacks any form of mobility in her kit and doesn't particularly have any meritable CC in a direct way. However she's got one of the stronger 4s straight off along with that 4 having a very stellar damage type.
It's not all about pure DPS here, it's about all of their traits, looking at each's pros and cons. If this didn't happen then we would see frames which are clearly better than others. This is sort of where your comparison falls apart, it's about the entirety of kits (pros and cons) in comparison across the board.
Basically, if any one frame has got innumerably more pros and fewer cons as compared to other frames... well then it's first in line for the nerf bat. Same holds true for a frame on the inverse side. This is how I see things when I say "balancing frames with regard to one another", it's not like they're directly fighting. It's a comparison of active usability.
When I look across the frames in Warframe, I don't see any that stick out as being out of line at the moment. Of course an honorable mention to Valkyr, who's invulnerability isn't something I'm particularly fond of. However it's got a clear drawback tied in so it's not outright game breaking.
As far as ability spam is concerned, for the most part spamming in regards to practically every 1 and most 2s isn't that big of a deal in my mind. However the rampant ease of access to 3s and 4s across all frames is where things get too wonky.
All that said... this is almost diverging a bit too much from the whole Rhino thing than usual. So I'll just wrap this up now. It appears as though we agree overall, it's more that we're not agreeing in a semantics area really seeing as we both want balanced frames.
Yes I can clearly see what you mean by all frames having a balanced set of pros and cons to their design. Up until now the frame with the most cons has been Ember. She is coming along nicely and needs the barest bit more tweaking to bring her in line.
I get where you are coming from and see exactly what the pro's and cons of each amount to but when someone tries to make claims that a damage frame out does a defensive frame they need to be able to delineate why and thus far despite all the "proof" Holey has provided he has not helped his case.
Experience is a telling thing and throughout the time I have been here nothing has out tanked our tank.
-
I don't think you're quite getting what we are saying. Frames can be balanced yet unique entirely based off their abilities. Yes there is not true balance, but for the enjoyment of the game we want it as close as we can.
Example Loki Vs Ash - Both are Invisibility frames with a Teleport, yet Loki has effectively 2 CC's (Decoy and Radial Disarm) and Ash has raw damage (Shuriken and Bladestorm). While the later you go the more Radial Disarm gets more effective, Bladestorm can still kill things for long enough as far as we care to balance the game. To me, they are unique enough to promote different playstyles, yet somewhat balanced to each other.
I'm sure other people can think of others but this thread is about Rhino's Ironskin, so I won't go on about frames not comparible to Rhino here.
Also agree about the ability to spam powers, particularly ultimates making the games less fun.
That's my point though. The damage mitigation methods they all have utilize unique mechanics and all perform their various jobs equally through the BALANCED FOR CONTENT idea. Literally nothing in this game is balanced on a frame by frame basis. It is all balanced against content itself and the rest is player skill. Thus if you only play the star system it all works well. However once you hit the void it becomes the players burden of coping.
Some will argue that the void then becomes the territory of elitists. Quite frankly it is the grounds on which your skill is weighed and measured. Quite frankly I feel it should continue to be that way.
In fact I sincerely cannot wait for the 8 man raids as DE has stated clearly that there will be no p#2w there and it will be 100% skill based and therefore a lot of players will not be able to complete it. Sooo much enthusiasm for this idea *drools*.
At least we will finally settle the debate on skill versus p42w solidly.
-
There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away. This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.
Add this to the previous one.
-
Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).
This
-
I have already provided a bug report on this matter and confirmed that it is not a host/client issue and has very little to do with power strength.
I tested 50 times(for both setups, 25 times as host 25 times as client) with and without bonus power strength. With and without overextended.
In both scenarios sometimes it would go the entire time with no enemies breaking through, sometimes they would immediately break through.
-
There's a fair degree of internal balancing amongst frames at the moment when you look at them overall however. While I agree with genin on a lot of things I'm not one to follow his line of thought in saying that frames shouldn't be balanced against one another. Looking at what others are truely capable of in varying ways is a good way of truely knowing whether or not a frame is overpowered, so it's something which I find integral to the realm of balance.
While weapons have some clear tiering stuff goign on (though they've still got issues) frames don't appear to have this at all. I genuinely cannot think of a frame which is notably able to be considered "bad" out of all the frames in game currently. Of course your mention of people knocking Excalibur is an issue, but randoms are just randoms. When it comes down to it the broad "casual" playerbase of any given game will almost always spout incorrect garbage and nonsense. There's not much a developer can do to counteract that aside going dictator-mode in all realms of chat and insta chat banning everyone who says nonsensical stuff in that manner. Of course this would be a terrible idea, but its the only solution.
It falls in with that old saying; You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. In this situation the playerbase is our horse, and the water is actively unbiased and objective knowledge of game mechanics.
A perfect example of this is Banshee for instance. Wildly ignored, hated by innumerable pugs, yet an undeniably powerful frame which can outpace some of the strongest frames in Warframe. Basically, people just aren't that smart, and DE can't change that.
As always however, I'm not saying every frame is always perfect, balance over time is a good thing to see. But I do believe DE handles balance amongst frames in an internal method, and that the ones we have now are balanced within a reasonable degree as to not warrant any factual claim of "uselessness" to be pegged to any of them.
The point that I'm trying to make and the point DE has stated is that they want frames to all do their own thing and are not balanced according to each other. Otherwise frames will lose their uniqueness and potentially lose the opportunity for unique mechanics. No two frames do the same thing in precisely the same manner UNTIL you distill the game down to p42w tactics in which case the point is killing enemies in an AOE radius.
Honestly I still contest the fact that ultimates work on the same supply of energy that other abilities utilize. I think this allows players an unrivaled ability to trivialize gameplay and should be looked at long and hard.
What we have here is a misleading idea among players that certain frames are better or worse at doing the same thing. The reality is that no two frames do the same thing in the same way if the entirety of their kit is utilized. Thus there is no way to truly balance the frames among each other.
IF DE did internal balancing among the frames there would not be such a large discrepancy among the ultimate abilities at the very least. Excal, Saryn, Mag, Ember, Mesa, Ash, and Mirage would all have equal damage per second across the board or at bare minimum would have equal damage total for their ults. This is however clearly not the case.
DE balances frames versus enemies and that is all in order to maintain each frames overall usefulness and unique traits.
-
You have an ability called World on Fire DE, actually sit down, get creative and make it amazing. I know its extra work to redesign an entire ability, to change it visually, and mechanically is a lot of effort, but haven't the ember players waited long enough to be able to see their frame as anything other then a Banshee with a poorly designed ult and infinitely less scaling damage on her gun.
+1
-
I agree with almost everything you said. This last post has a very reasonable appeal, unlike the first one.
I still think he needs some damage in his last or possibly new 3rd ability
Besides cataclysm doesnt allow to fire outward and in defense you still need to kill the mobs. Dont claim cataclysm will take you deep into defense, cataclysm will take you until your weapons will take you. It just allows to concentrate on enemies and forget about the pod.
Really? Thus far cataclysm has taken my team to wave 75 in t4 defense. Of course no ability alone can do so, but Cataclysm is far and away better than Snow globe.
In fact I would wager that if DE actually thought about things the way players do they would realize that Cataclysm is broken OP.
Thus far the only reason we have to leave at all is time constraints and or boredom.
-
Have you tried the Torid ? It's effective against that bubble but i haven't tried it in the t4 yet.
Torrid is magnificently effective. Hit the ground in front of them and watch them die instantly once they walk into the cloud or with firestorm on it watch them instantly die no matter where you hit near them.
-
All frames have bearing on all discussions regarding all other frames.
Because the simple question is simple. "Which frame am I gonna use in this mission?"
And the simple answer is simple. "Whichever frame is best for this mission."
Rhino isn't best for any mission. Therefore, he's never the one chosen. It's all based on comparison between frames, whichever one is best is the one chosen.
And when I started playing Mirage seriously, and saw how much tankier she is than Rhino when used properly.. I realized that there's no point in ever playing Rhino again until he is fixed to be a better tank than this "glass cannon" who can survive bombards to the face.
There are a lot of easy mode buttons in the game. They aren't going away any time soon.
Actually once again obviously you need this reiterated to you until it get's through... no frame is balanced according to the kit of another frame. Sorry, I know you don't like it, but it's not anywhere near your realm of choice.
Never has been, never will be.
And to be quite clear, Rhino is used far more than any of the other 3 frames you mentioned in high tier content. Players use him all the time just not for Rep farm.
Additionally it's quite clear in any mission that they all are present in or multiples are present in. A skillful Rhino goes down far less than the rest. If we really need to go there I can invite you right now and test my Rhino vs your Mirage and see what is what.
-
Excalibur: Named for a legendary sword, this warrior should remain the pinnacle of melee excellence.
The first change that I would suggest be implemented is that all of Excalibur's strikes through power use be counted as melee strikes(and thus obtain the damage bonus from melee multiplier). We already know this is a mechanic in game as illustrated by Ash's Blade Storm and I feel this should definitely be an integral part of Excalibur's kit as he is essentially the melee frame.
Slash Dash 2.0
Excalibur Rushes forward damaging all targets in a 8m wide path adding to his combo counter based on the number of enemies struck(damaging range width is not affected by power range to prevent OP slash dash builds that are immortal, in addition only slash dash has this mechanic, RJ does not). Melee combo counter would increase the damage dealt. This would incentivize players to utilize this ability often and cement Excal's role as the melee frame.
Surging Dash 2.0
At the end of Slash Dash Excalibur produces a pulse of energy knocking all targets back from him to a range of 10 meters. Enemies knocked away will deal a small amount of physics damage to other enemies also pushing them back to the maximum range(range of the pulse is not affected by power range). Considering the damage dealt would be minimal I see no issue with providing the combo counter damage bonus here as well.
I feel Super Jump should be removed from Excal's kit entirely and be implemented as a sort of charged jump to every frames kit. Allow players to expend X amount of stamina in order to charge a jump that will increase it's height and speed.
Excal's new 3.
Empowered strikes
for 50 energy Excalibur gains double scaling on all additions to his melee combo counter for 20 seconds(affected by duration)in addition Excalibur gains a bonus 20% damage to all melee hits. I thought about adding power str scaling to this as well but thought that with the combined 2x combo multiplier it would be insanely strong, as it stands it would be more than worthwhile addition to his kit whereas Super Jump is continually criticized as one of the most useless skills in game.
Augment: Stunning Strikes
While Empowered strikes is active Excalibur's attacks will stun a target for 2 second thus allowing him to allow melee in extremely dangerous situations if tactically applied to high threat targets.
Furious Javelin 2.0
Excalibur's RJ ability now provides him with a short duration spherical shielding made of blades, equal to the damage a RJ does(a single javelin not the total damage of all hits) with feature the shield can be further scaled with a larger combo multiplier and in addition teammate buffs such as Roar can increase this further since Roar will increase RJ's damage. This ability behaves akin to IS(scales from melee combo multiplier not pwr str) except it provides no immunity to cc or procs. Through careful use of his combo multiplier Excal gains a significant source of shielding that allows him to close ranks with even the most dangerous targets.
Through careful synergetic use of these abilities Excalibur is able to always ensure that his entire kit is viable and truly impactful throughout the entire game.
Credit for this work goes to geninrising, haku360, and mrhawk1000
edited for clarity of statements.
edited for addition of Furious Javelin 2.0
-
There's no deficiency at all when the enemies destroy the iron skin during your casting animation. That's just a weak shield.
Really? they don't destroy mine during the cast. Oh wait I don't stand directly in front of bombards or heavy gunners in order to do so--->Skill.
Additionally I never attempt to stand still and allow targets to fire upon me with impunity. Again that is a SKILL developed through tirelessly attempting to actually elevate my ability to play the game better and for longer and longer runs. If you simply think any skill should allow you to just eat bullets you should have given up long ago because DE does not want you to have an easy mode button. Energy loophole not withstanding as they are currently trying to figure out how to alleviate that issue. As far as Valkyr is concerned you shouldn't be as she has no bearing on a discussion about Rhino, nor does any other frame for that matter.
BTW if you need pointers on how to play Rhino, just ask.
-
When I have to recast iron skin every 3 seconds in any T4 mission, I guarantee you that my experience is proving me right. Since I only have to recast the other skills every 30 seconds or so. 500 energy to cast Iron skin 10 times, or 25 energy to cast eclipse once? Which is more?
That's a really easy question to answer.
The fact that you equate the skills as the same thing is your problem in the first place. Rhino's skill =damage immunity for said duration. The others still take the damage. Hate to go there but "get gud skrub"
If you seriously have to recast that often then there is a deficiency in your skill as a Rhino player not in the skill itself. In fact just by the mere fact that you have to recast it that often shows me that the failure in Rhino actually derives itself directly from your lack of skill.
Please refrain from future attempts at revamping skills or we might never have changes made that actually benefit anyone at all. SMH
Who's Excited For Difficult 8 Man Raids?
in General Discussion
Posted
Just a comment on how hyped AW was only to have a grand total of 2 mission types to play in, forcing horribly tedious leveling of gear that has no impact on core gameplay.