geninrising
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Posts posted by geninrising
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The problem with this per target DPS comparison comes primarily from the idea that they perform the same job(killing things) within their aegis of operation equally given that they can both kill said target.
The problem with this ideal is that powers kill enemies exponentially faster in larger numbers and thus the disparity.
The additional problem with this argument is that nerfs=damaging powers usability due to their basis of hitting all enemies in a large aoe effectively.
The idea that springs to mind comes from powers such as Ember's WoF and Ash's Bladestorm. How about say we simply cap the number of targets and increase the damage dealt per strike and thus balance damage output+application of said damage to a manageable level and promote scaling of the abilities later into the game? Thus it would make more sense for higher level players to find more rewarding enemies to use said power on and might cause them to refrain from killing new player experiences in various places throughout the star map.
As an edit: I realize nothing is going to stop powers from trivializing game content. Unfortunately too much of the current iteration of WF is based around the concept that our powers are available virtually always.
However what we can perhaps come to is a point where the trivialization of gameplay is as low as possible, and enemy types that punish all players when it is a few specialized players causing their necessity is not the way to promote player enjoyment of the game.
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Well i dont know how to tell you this, but it aint happening.
Really how do you know? I mean as in KNOW and not mere supposition based upon some thought you have? The only thing we currently know is that DE has stated that players will not be able to complete it without a certain level of skill. In fact they clearly stated that some will not be able to complete it at all.
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Anyone who says WoFs damage isnt good is doing something very wrong
Its costly and theres a mod conflict still but the damage has always been there
It's not that the damage is bad by any means. It's that the cost/effectiveness ratio is skewed. In addition it's one of the only abilities in game that duration will cost you more energy, discounting mirage's ult due to the bonus factor of hitting 20 targets in up to 100m(measured through use of multiple synoid gamacores on Pluto, Cerberus all aligned along the left hand side of the map;longest side) radius and the added bonus effect upon cancellation of the ult, which warrants increased energy cost.
Additionally WITHOUT the use of accelerant the damage falls off quite fast in later content thus guaranteeing that accelerant must constantly be used as both a cc tool and damage boost in order to maintain effectiveness.
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The problem really does not come so much down to teaching new players. The problem comes from the semi casual gameplay WF experiences that lulls players into thinking no skill is involved or very little skill.
Players currently have access to an array of abilities that trivialize virtually all content we face throughout the entire solar system as well as tier 1,2,3 and quite a large chunk of tier 4 content.
Players can Run a pure IS build throughout the entire solar system tier 1 2 and 3 with nary a problem to be had and thus are not required to hone skill whatsoever. By the same token we have other frames who's ultimates will clear a whole room of targets with a single button press and therefore players have learned several very bad habits we can attribute to LAZINESS.
Thus when said players enter into a situation where their laziness cannot maintain said ease of play they become frustrated and either give up, avoid said circumstances entirely except when using a frame that has infinite scaling(loki, Nova, Banshee, Nyx), or scream for change from the developers to allow their particular frame of choice to return to said lazy play regardless of enemy levels.
This is the impetus for players wanting a change to IS for example to allow Rhino to facetank( I wish that word would crawl into a ditch and die already) again. Rather than trying to examine how an ability functions within the aegis of DE's balancing efforts, and seeing if there is a deficiency within that area of operation.
I believe that players must face necessary hardships to realize what they have and how effective it is. In addition it is incumbent upon players themselves to develop skill rather than really upon that P#2W mentality that pervades WF atm.
Rhino is a well rounded frame that excels in damage mitigation through various means. In addition he provides an outstanding damage bonus to his allies that stacks on top of any other damage boost in play(ie: M Prime, Sonar, melee stealth damage boost), as well as an ability that provides high mobility in order to get him from place to place effectively.
The only "problem" for Rhino players is when they decide any part of his kit does not deserve mods and they focus on one aspect thus creating Rhinoobs.
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Group comps that have that kind of strength have alot to handle, but how about this enemy:
Big dude, big axe, big armor. Call him the "Quartermaster" or whatever, make him popular with the troops.
For special attacks he's got a charge with about a five second refresh, large damage and ragdoll to the moon knockback.
If nobody is in melee range for a period of five seconds, he whips out his AkHeks modded for toxin and unloads. Make sure they're strong enough that this is intensely undesirable.
He blocks, and has a stamina bar.
At every fifteen percent health lost, he Rhino stomps.
If he gets hard CC'd(as in, can't move via Trinity #1 or many, many others), he screams for help and gets a platoon of eximus coming at the players. CC functions correctly on him, but heavy use of it leaves you overwhelmed by an army of draining, leeching, flame ringing, blitzing horrors.
His standard melee attack(enough damage to two shot say, a full vitality/constitution/redirection/iron skin Rhino) has a 1.5 speed and negates a duration buff on hit(if not blocked) with a significant chance of a raid boss level bleed proc. Blockable, somewhat dodgeable, but nobody is going to stand there and face tank him without significant outside help.
If he gets hit in the back, that'll be his next charge target. Gives the players some control over his movement, but also means placement is critical or you'll get him unloading shield ignoring ranged hell.
Beatable? For sure. But that's just an example that some sleepy guy dreamed up off the top of his head that would leave you needing a more rounded group comp.
This is precisely what I am looking to see. Something that truly pushes us to strategize(why does this forum think so many words are misspelled or not really words) as a means of SURVIVAL not just speedy completion.
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Yup, I had one of those moments where I wrote the angry e-mail, then sent it before I let myself cool down (thus the redaction). Innocent_Flower went on to make his own post on Progression, so that makes me feel even worse about that.
Oh, the real reason I am posting again is to make sure that those who are following this thread see the stuff I added to it. I got a bit more "revolutionary" with some ideas added to the "Difficulty versus Power" section (under "Two Alternatives to the above"). One of which involves a system very closely resembling what DE has leaked about Focus, the other goes even farther out there with an idea that makes everything equal and removes serration (and locks weapon power directly to Progression Rank). I do not know if the original idea or one of the two alternatives is the better option, just trying to add more as feedback comes in.
I would honestly support your final iteration in the Alternatives to the above section, with the proviso that they create an entirely different set of mods to allow us to fully customize the "feel" of our weapons. Things such as explosive arrows(not thunderbolt with it's very own RNG monster), ricocheting bullets, impact rounds(think about a machine gun that allows you to knock enemies back a certain distance), additionally a means to convert base damage into elemental damage through elemental mods to further specialize your weapons(admittedly I have been on an Ember spree trying to develop a comprehensive feedback topic that encompasses all players concerns rather than the current b|tchfest we have currently in the mega thread). Things along this line of thought must be present in any future iterations in order to fill the customization gap left by loss of various damage mods.
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I'm up for a challenge!
The whole point of a raid is that it's supposed to be difficult. I don't mind being oneshotted if that's what it takes for a boss. I just hope that they don't make it too difficult.
1 Shotting us is acceptable as long as a margin of skill can be applied to prevent it. Anything that is hitscan or hits the whole map is unacceptable and equates to pseudo-difficulty.
OP updated to include various concerns posted throughout this thread.
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True, but I wouldn't call that "wasted". More just, "in its infancy".
I'm aware. It's just that the hype did not match what was delivered and that's what my initial comment was based on.
I am all for AW as long as it meshes with the rest of warframe and provides benefits to said core gameplay rather than just being a change of gameplay. Currently the only reason to do AW is...AW there is no benefit to having a pimped out AW as it cannot help you earn anything for your overall WF experience other than varied gameplay. WF is reward driven from the beginning to the end and currently there is no reward for AW that is not FOR AW. That seriously rubs me raw as AW time is spent to only improve AW which is akin to a sort of side game. Even once it is implemented fully I will not feel it's complete. Until it has some way of earning exclusive stuff for ground gameplay I will not see it as beneficial.
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Unless we fight against Grineer in machines or whatever.... weak argument, the CC of 8 players will indeed be insane, how is DE going to do that?
Remember Warframe in CB, Tenno.... Remember.... "COMBAT FORMATION BRAVO!!"... Archwing is more like a completely new game, maybe U16 will add more.
And lets not forget "Leave my mother out of this lol!"
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This is the crux of many issues plaguing warframe right now.
As I said, DE says one thing then their actions say another thing.
I feel several things are not balanced well for a level 40 endgame, often they are too strong.
But when those things start to feel normal, about level 60, many other things feel too weak.
DE really needs to get on this...find a more consistent median.A more clear correlation between what they say and what they do.
As things are right now....It's breeding confusion like crazy.
This is true. I think there needs to be some type of implemented skill factor to all abilities that allow them to scale well past the solar system through artful use. Currently things like Disarm, M Prime and many more abilities still perform their function precisely the same regardless of enmy levels while several ultimates, while utterly OP for the entire star chart, t1, t2, and t3(all outside of endless)at the t4 mark become near worthless except for their CC components where applicable.
True balance is I think going to be an endlessly tiring ordeal though because as more mods, frames, and even enemies are added things will surely continue a power creep and imbalance will pervade. Currently I do see a problem with DE that severely impacts this. It seems they are unable to continue to produce frames that are strong without breaking the balance point. Additionally it seems as though whenever they touch any frame except Excalibur they weaken the frame to the point that people are angry about it.
What I think DE needs to do is provide players a buff to any given frame they change that is commensurate with the amount of power they take away. Quite frankly with the change to Rhino it felt like they utterly Robbed him, not because of the loss of broken IS but due to the fact that they changed two of his other abilities that were felt to be utterly core and arguably his best skills.
IDK at this point I would not mind seeing Charge removed to make way for the return of blast. With that implemented make IS his 1 as it is Rhino's signature move and the skill that would cement his idea of being a tank. Provide IS with 4 seconds absorption and 50%health/shield scaling. Then with the Charge pulled make his 2 Blast. half the damage boost from roar and make it an AOE aggro+DR that combines with his weapons to allow pinpoint aggro acquisition, that way players can spec for aoe aggro or weapon aggro as they choose capped at 20m aoe or weapon range if using pinpoint aggro. Lastly stomp appears to be in good health atm and I am unsure if to change or not.
The above changes would provide a fully functional tank build that scales well no matter what the content, thus guaranteeing Rhino's place no matter how power creep advances, additionally set that way the balance of enemies would basically set Rhino's effective IS level therefore it would not be outlandishly op nor would it ever be useless.
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I am sooo going to miss that show :(
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Yeah this has been going on for like 4 months or something. Sword alone I think as well at one point if you had not completed it.
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As far as I'm concerned I do want them to be epic with epic rewards, however the highest point I want them to hit is difficulty. I want a place where skilled players can congregate without having a bunch of players that use things like Full IS build on Rhino.
I want actual skill to matter way more than ability spam. Currently the majority of the game(can nearly say all of the game) can be cheesed through with spamming powers on an infinite energy loop. Synergy or not it is just bad gameplay balance to be able under any circumstances to only use powers to do anything. It's quite frankly a horrendous failure of the DEvs to let it go so far. At the very least I hope ultimate powers are completely ignored throughout the whole dmn thing. That way we can at least get away from the spam somewhere.
Judging by what DE has said on the matter thus far, it should be prohibitively difficult preventing some players from ever being able to complete it at all. Which is just fine to me, welcome even.
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8 player missions not only raids would be interesting but hard to predict how much hard will that process. Still the performance need some changes and improvements before capable to do more than 1 person missions.
Really? My comp plays just fine in Dark Sector once everyone is at full build spamming the crap out of abilities and weapons. Of course My comp can also have mirage onscreen with Hall of Malevolence and a full speed build Kohm with no frame rate issues.
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When it comes down to it, there's no convincing the stone deaf. People become entrenched in the concept that they are right and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong.
I know I'm not alone in saying that iron skin doesn't scale well into high level content. I see it all over the forums and in the game... people commenting how other frames are more durable than Rhino, specifically mentioning the same frames I keep mentioning. Most of them have been chased out of this topic by now by the other side of the coin, which consists mostly of people who associate Rhino with noobish gameplay and unskilled players who stand still in the middle of enemy fire because it's possible to do so in the early levels of the game.
Most of my suggestions, if you'll note, have involved re-scaling iron skin to be weaker early on but stronger at high levels where it is necessary. Iron skin is in desperate need of a rework, to make it scale better with all level of content. And Rhino should probably be moved to Pluto, switching places with Excalibur who should probably drop on Venus.
But it seems no matter how much mathematical proof I post of how poorly iron skin scales, and no matter how many people agree with me, some people will never ever be convinced. Some people will claim that in their experience Rhino is still the best tank... but any scientist will tell you that experience and testimonials are THE WORST form of "proof" for anything, as experience varies widely from person to person.
I feel bad for DE because it seems people will scream at them for changing iron skin, but continue to scream at them for leaving it broken like it currently is. No matter what they do, they're gonna get complaints over this broken skill.
The clear difference is that currently it can be used in all balanced content just fine. There is not really a reason for them to promote unskilled players being able to progress as far as those with a much higher skill factor.
I can't wait to see you in forums upset because your IS doesn't work versus raid enemies.
On a side note folks, did you know that Holey has moved to another discussion of Rhino trying to peddle his 100%+hp100%Shields+300 armor IS idea? The one that we discussed stating that at those levels it would probably be too strong. SMH
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I would rather keep his indefinite time limit on his iron skin so I can run around the star map without getting hurt and without the need for duration mods.
No support.
See this is sort of the problem. Rhino is already at a really good place for BALANCED content. Only when one goes outside of the area that DE balances for does he show a bit of fall off. However through skillful application of his entire kit Rhino still shines.
The problem lot's of people have is when it comes to that necessary skill component. These people are fine as long as IS is a get out of jail free card they can keep on 100% of the time. However, once the gloves come off versus enemies that IS lasts a bare few seconds against they become nearly a waste of a squad slot. That's the mentality that needs to change. I can handle IS gaining some skill component that requires you utilize it in order to be able to use it late game. However I am definitely not comfortable with another easy mode button being implemented just for the sake of promoting bad player participation in high tier content.
I honestly can't wait for raids, if they are prohibitively difficult to take part in as DE stated they will be. It will be nice to play with nothing but skilled players after a few days of people rage quitting them.
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Cheap according to who? New players don't really have a way to farm things and sell them. They have to actually buy plat in order to spend it.
And if they're willing to pay for the plat... well good for them. They're supporting the game. Can't complain. That's how Warframe stays in business. If iron skin is rebalanced according to my suggestion, it's still not a problem.
This guy omg, he got laughed off his own thread and comes begging here SMH.
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Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).
There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away. This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.
TY for compiling my thought on those two posts tris1
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I miss the old javelin
It couldve been fixed...
I miss lining up a ton of enemies to watch them scatter like flies.
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I just wanted to leave this here:
I did the tactical alert with Rhino Prime and just with my friend, who also had a Rhino. I think we could as well have used Frost, but Rhino was faster.
How did we do it? Cast Iron Skin when we could and if we had to take down nullifiers, we had better armor/shields/HP and thus more survivability as Mesa/Mirage/etc. Valkyr has better Armor, but less shields to feed the rover.
Iron Skin even saved us from the magnetic procs.
It suddenly was ridiculously easy where we failed with many other frames.
And while in forums there are ridiculous recommendations for four man groups and cheesy tactics involving a lot of skill and various specialized frames, we just did it with two Rhinos, and neither had any forma.
Like I said before: I'm not against a slight buff of Iron Skin. Give him maybe 1.25-1.5x the EHP he has now or something like that, but not that stuff, that Holeypaladin is trying to sell.
Which frame will I use for this mission? Whichever one I feel like playing. This game isn't so hard that you need to min-max. Pretty much everything is viable with enough mods crammed in it. It's about flavor, not theoretical maximums. Infinite content is not relevant to a balance discussion and can be considered a minigame at best. IS is not for infinite content (90% of options aren't,) and that's fine.
It's also amusing that you use this line of logic, considering that earlier in the thread your reason for asking for buffs was "I want to be able to face-tank because that's how I like to play." Seems like you actually just want to trivialize infinite content, which is pretty much the most toxic thing you could ask DE for. Relentless lobbying fron infinite content shills that don't even really play "Warframe" in general are the reason we've been power creeping in the first place.
Guys we already concluded that he does not make sense, and while we enjoy the community support on the matter it's really a non issue. We already came to the realization a bit ago and will soon produce a thread for actionable changes to leave Rhino is a bit of a better place without going overboard. Hope to see you there.
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I am sincerely hoping they make it so hard several people rage quit ^^
Seriously though we need something hella hard with great rewards. I'd love to see a Raid frame. This would be a great chance to implement Typhus DE. They did say the reward would be something good after all. Of course I can see it now, parts of some as yet unknown key drop at random times from a random stalker attack at a .0000000000000001% chance, but here's the kicker, you must catch the drop as it tries to fly off like a golden snitch on crack. After you catch it you must make it to the end of the level with the grustrag 3, Zanuka and all 6 syndicate death squads attacking all at once While under the hobbled key effect.
Prepare your anuses and bite the pillow. They're going in dry.
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Just to add to the pile of messages. Pre "changes" I was a long duration / High Efficiency WoF user as it was a DPS Steroid that allowed for full movement + being able to stack with your weapon DPS. Previously, I could cast WoF and get 19 seconds of damage as I ran around hosing things down with my Ignis. It would cost me 25 energy and over the duration (I forma'ed to fit Energy Siphon / Corrosive Projection) and I would gain back 11.4 energy for a final cost of 13.6 energy. It was a fire and forget power that let me boost my DPS while clearing a room and staying 100% mobile, it also let me recover my energy costs by picking up blue orbs as I'd often be casting fireball / fire blast and most importantly accelerant along the way.
With the recent changes to WoF it is now in a much worse place as far as her entire kit goes. While the power itself is stronger, the interaction with the rest of her abilities really makes it lackluster.
First, raw energy costs I am looking at (50 + (1*19))*0.25 = 17.25 energy cost. While this is slightly cheaper when I run Corrosive Projection, it is more expensive when running energy siphon. However, this is not a huge difference and not really a deal breaker. What is really breaking the gameplay is that while the power is up (doing damage in the background) and you are using the rest of your kit, you can't gain any energy back from orbs yet still attract them (and therefore waste them).
As an added negative, if I was getting sapped before by something I didn't have LoS too, I could hit WoF and start to wear it down. If I was low on energy, I'd still get 19 seconds of damage out of it. Now, if I'm getting sapped or low on energy WoF just shuts off.
This power needs to keep its duration, because it is an amazing ult in the form of a damage steroid (NOT A NUKE!) but having it act like a toggle makes zero sense. There is never (seldom) a good reason to shut this power off early as you will be constantly mobile while using it and given the mob density of the game chances are you will run into something that it will hit and before there was no reason to turn it off early as you paid your energy upfront and got your damage out of it.
The movement speed and stamina boost were great. The Fire blast change is okay really, it seems more than it looks cool than anything else, I'll still likely use accelerant for my quick CC. The damage on it is pretty laughable though.
*edit* While the toggle thing is annoying, what really breaks the "ember playstyle" is shutting off your energy regeneration from siphon, spheres, etc. I read this might be a bug, if that gets fixed things will be "okay" not amazing but certainly okay.
The only reason I could see for a toggle is if it had some last hurrah that occurred at the end like Mirage otherwise it's worthless in the current iteration. In fact I avoid using it entirely still.
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Having spent the majority of the last several days on Ember I can tell for sure that the cost associated with WoF is massively prohibitive.
Let us have a set duration or true toggle. Currently having to activate it so often is a huge burden on energy resources. And yes it has to be activated often to provide her with a viable damage amount otherwise she is just another cc bot. Eber is supposed to be a DPS caster and she merely feels like another Loki or Nyx with far less true utility.
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DE stated in the Dev Stream that it will be so hard that some players will not be able to complete it. I'm seriously hoping they stick to their guns on that difficulty.
Who's Excited For Difficult 8 Man Raids?
in General Discussion
Posted
When debating new content, supposition cannot replace detailed data as a contributing factor of KNOWLEDGE. So clearly, you do not know, of course due to experience with the company you may THINK you do. Remember thinking something and knowing something are two entirely different things.