(PSN)Irmao2Vigilante
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Posts posted by (PSN)Irmao2Vigilante
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it seems this thread collected all suggestions, comments, opinions and emotions involving shotguns and status changes. All of us who participated in it, we re ready to know how much of the discussions you guys followed, to know if you are already meeting online to debate about it and to discover your decisions. What will you do, keep, change or thrown away? etc etc
in this game we love.
I imagine today's devstream it is too close, and likely this matter won't be addressed there. if may i ask something - please, do address this matter soon.
meanwhile, stay healthy. Godspeed to you and all DE team, specially the ones we don't see or know.
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So, some of the main points so far:
- Huge nerf on shotgun with 30% status chance or greater and number of pellets > 3. DE allowed the previous method for so long and they launched new shotguns fully aware of the method and even create diversity based on it. The change on methodology affected balance and diveristy previously defined. The equation choosen to attempt to rebalanceotgun sh only worked when pellet number is smaller or equal 3. Overall, there is a huge loss of diversity for shotguns as many more burst and auto weapons outclass most shotguns as status weapons. (Pareto Front reduced)
- Beam Shotguns like Phantasma didn't use the previous method so the changes made them stupidily weak. Therefore, as they behave as beam weapons, to revert the changes seems reasonable
- Viral is overpower and magnetic is really weak because all enemies have health, once shield is neutralized enemies are quick disposed due multiple stacks of viral whereas magnetic only work on shield and not health
- Fire is doing too many things
- DE hasn't addressed this thread for more than 45 days, so why i'm still caring about it?
Did i forgot something?
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now i remembered,
Melee 3.0 nerfed many mods - e.g. blood rush, maiming strike etc. at least they some work on weapons stats to make it good. Shotguns needs this sort of care - not just pick a box and shake it hoping everything will be alright.
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Pease, most of posts so far showed :
1 - Viral needs change
2 - it was a huge nerf on many shotguns - the word "buff" denotes to make something more powerful, most shotguns became weaker than before so the correct word is nerf. No speech can change facts even speech who distorts math and probability modelling. DE didn't regard for:
a) Pareto frontier and dominance - and as consequence huge loss of diversity in many game aspects - (They will disregard both concepts again on the healing workshop and kill vazarin most likelly)
b) probabilities and mechanics
3 - For God's only knows why, DE decided that status are more dangerous than Kuva Bramma. I ll tell you all, Kuva Bramma ruins most star chart missions, because it turns them into a quick run to extraction points no abilities and nothing more. Most of my clan mates and I abort mission when in a random party someone brings that cursed bow. Strange enough that's not a problem for DE, but shotguns applying status is. Maybe they imagine that Kuva Liches would kill Inaros with Bramma
4 - DE has to speak up, exam the posts and address - all issues are exposed. Sometimes i wonder if DE's is using other non-official accounts to exhaust players. Plus, this thread is more than 1 month old. They got themselves caught with all Scarlet Spear Bugs, choose to start workshop how to nerf healing (with little regard of how many hours players took to achieve certain levels). This topic seems long forgotten
Warframe is 7 years old, new mechanics, new storytelling will keep the player base, expect people to not grow really strong after so many hundreds or thousands of game hours is not healthy. I want to be more constructive with DE and warframe, but sometimes as a player, I also feel i receive a lot of frustrating news from DE last 2 months or so. I know DE works hard and the team talented, but call "nerf" as "buffs", call "normal abilities" as "bugs". Call the farm of Grendel reasonable. Nerf shotguns, Nerf healing and Vazarin because they work very well in Scarlet Spear... and so on
After all COVID-19 mess, maybe DE can take the team to a resort or hotel, give them some rest and then remember they did a few things really great:
1 - Hero moments - Exploiter Orb - Can those hero moments improve all bosses and even explain how Leech Krill Survives Mars?
2- Nightwave (the current one is 6months old or more)
3- Second Dream, War within, Harrow, Umbra - Why focus the story only on Lotus? Why not have story webcomic styled in game telling about frames, their original operators ?- instead of just fragments on warframe wiki?
and many more things...
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9 hours ago, Robolaser said:
Hi, i've read here and on reddit heated discussions about wether the Phantasma beams can each proc status individually and simultaneously, like a shotgun would, or not, like a beam weapon would instead. So i've recorded a short video of a test with the firerate lowered to 1 (instead of its base 12) using a riven and critical deceleration, for better clarity:
As you can see, the beams definitely don't proc separate statuses individually. The phantasma does indeed act like a regular beam weapon. All beams are merged into one, proccing 1 status effect at a time. Thus, it should not have received the same treatment as regular shotguns, and should have, at the very least, kept it's 37% status chances.
I agree. Beam weapons had and have distinct dynamic, astilla as well therefore they should be treated differently
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hi @thurmack
I believe the majority of posts commenting about viral agree it needs nerf. Viral became too overpower.
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hi @[DE]Bear, @[DE]Saske,
let me try to be constructive here. DE wants to use status per pellet and by doing so fix a quite strange code at the same time wants something simple so the new code is simple, easy to debug, maintain, improve etc etc etc.
The attempt bumped in 2 main problems:
- Probabilities don't behave linearly, so divide the weapon status chance by its number of pellets won't give a proper status per pellet probability
- The previous methods allowed many shotguns to achieve 1 status per pellet, the migration changed severely specially because status mods (60/60) won't
be able to raise the probabilities as before (again non-linearity here). So the team opted for the linear formula 3 times status chance divided by number of pellets
So I compiled the data from before Warframe Revised for many shotguns, and made some spreadsheets today. The first is the real status chance per pellet. I took the original status chance for each weapon (let me name it p). I used as probability of at least 1 status proc, so its complement (1-p) stands for probability of no proc at all. After, i took ln (log base e) and calculate the status per pellet and revert the operation in order to have the proper number (the log transform simplify things). The results are in a spreadsheet (link bellow) (idk how to upload a screenshot here - link)
However, because of how 60/60 mods work and the previous troublesome method, just using them is a gargantuan nerf for most shotguns. I imagine that's why you guys try multiply by 3. But first things first.
Observe the correct status /pellet is not merely original status/number of pellets. For instance, Strun Wraith has 40% original status and 10 pellets, therefore its status per pellet is 4.98%
Once we know that, we can face the 2nd issue. The previous status procedure created a dynamic and as consequence expectations for some shotguns to have 1 status per pellet. Now, with the migration this performance is seriously nerfed. So some sort of multiplier and/or other actions are required so some of previous performance is restore and previously good status shotguns don't become rubbish.
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So I multiplied the real pellet status probabilities by 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 and analyze how much of the performance can be recovered this way only and to identify shotguns that would become too overpower. To do so, I exam the effect of 2 60/60 mods, 3 60/60 and all 60/60 mods over status probabilities, They are also in the google spreadsheet i linked -
My conclusions are as follow. Once the real per pellet status probability is evaluated, a multiplier of 4 or 5 will only recover 50% to 69% previous status power for most shotguns. At the same time, those multipliers also create status power house as Exergis and some Beam weapons. A multiplier of 3, recover only 40%, and also would give Exergis 116.115 status per pellet using 3 of the elemental status mods (60/60).
My suggestions. You guys are free to use them or not (it is a suggestion), at least post something telling that someone actually read them (sometimes i really wonder if someone from DE will actually read the posts on the 25th page of comments here).
Use some multiplier between 3.5 and 5 [3.5, 5] (i like 4.5 - my preference). Define a cap for weapons like Exergis and others in order to avoid 240% status per pellet (from phage and bellow we see quite strange things - i don't like it - needs individual care). Announce the community, and observe for 2 or 3 weeks. If something needs a buff - buff the damage. If something needs a nerf - nerf status chance.
You re already using the community as guinea pigs, give this experiment a good ending
have a nice day.
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well,
radiation is fire + electricity, viral is cold+toxin, so both can be present in any weapon. because viral is already too powerful right now, i don't think this will be good for the game as viral damage will greatly benefit from faction damage becoming even more powerful. This might be really bad
IMHO, Kuva Bramma is already too powerful, this could make an overpower weapon even more overpower.
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7 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:
Because the Kohm spools the number of pellets it fires, up to 12, what is happening is that the game is listing its entire status chance, divided by number of pellets... which is 1 pellet before it starts spooling. So, if the UI could display full spool, status chance for the Kuva Kohm would range from 7.5% to about 36% per pellet depending on modding and rivens.
The reason Kohms still rip through enemies fairly well is that they're still getting a lot of procs because of their sheer volume of fire. This combined with the armor changes making higher level enemies comparatively squishier makes it look like they are the same or better, when in reality if you go up a hundred or three more levels, the old Kohms at 100% would still be able to grind through enemies fairly well, where the new ones will be doing basically no damage at that point due to the remaining 20% armor. S-curve is all well and good... but what it really means is that enemies scale just as hard as before, it's just that the beginning of the real spike is pushed back some levels.
So, yeah, even the Kohms will be trash against high level armored enemies (as if their horrendous ammo inefficiency wasn't already enough to lock that down) without abilities or other ways of obtaining complete armor strip.
hi Vitalis_inamorta,
that's a bug, or a terrible decision, because DE annouced to the community "status per pellet" new system instead of the previous system. They used a equation that didn't care about dynamics presents in game for years. Suddenly they notice, "oh God - kohms are too strong now whereas all others got nerfed" - it was a sympton of how badly the transition is and, for i noticed they didn't stop 2 minutes to think what was really happening? no, they decided that for kohms they would use the old system - display a status chance that later will be divided by pellets as they increase .
In terms of project means that either they have a function exclusive for kohm and family, or they just change "the 100% status chance to all pellets" and used UI to show us per pellet chance.
It needs fixing. Ui must convey correct and clear info and not misleading ones. Thank you
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On 2020-03-06 at 12:29 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:
Read it again. its not 90% status, it's actually going to be divided by 12 after... I strongly dislike how the community is taking things face value. The veterans are telling you guys this is not what you want... The shotguns dont reach 100% except exergis because it only has 3 pellets. The kohm is no longer able to get 100% status per pellet, more along the lines of 30% after mods.
then how is that a status per pellet? if status per pellet is 90% then spool from 1 to 12 pellets shouldn't alter it. Bug?
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Hello,
@TheLexiConArtist i have to agree with @TRBWhite - and i wil add, beam/continuos shotguns worked distinctly from non-beam ones, Beam shotgun like phage didn't had their status chance altered by multishot, they almost behaved like pellet based status chance so for phage suffered a huge nerf. DE applied its equation equally without regarding all distinct mechanics they had (continuous, astilla, kohm 100% status pellet shotgun etc) and as consequence all distinc functions/procedures that evaluate status chance produced anomalous outcomes. The result are motrous buff for kohm (more than 3 status per shot) and many stupid nerfs.
Apply something equally when so many diferent procedures evaluates if a status procs or not requires careful study about what to apply. Weight down all mechanics, define expected behavior, design method/procedure and exam if the proposed method will actually create the desired outcome.
For some unknown reason, maybe too many things to update at once, they didn't define a procedure that would make a transition without creating so many distortions. They just grabbed the box and shook it without care - as they said during devstream- (unfortunate sad)
Hopefuly, DE will aknowledge that something needs to be done here, and they ll fix things
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Hello,
Regarding Viral
I tested on ps4. Viral is too strong, change it or nerf it. I suggest the first viral raise the damage, and subsequent viral status become randomly puncture, impact or damage raise as if they were stronger symptoms of the infection/disease/virus
Regarding Shotgun status
- Kohm is still clearly a spreadsheet error. The consequence of a busy team working in the new content and an ill defined equation. It can reach 306% status chance with only 60/60 mods, add hell's chamber and vigilante armaments then one shot can produce an absurd amount of status. Fully spooled? 21,6 status x 4.17 (fire rate). Kohm received a stupid buff whereas most status shotguns got nerfed.
luckily it is easy to fix, i wonder why hasn't been done yet. It would take about 2 hours for someone not used to math. "take the old data, take the highest status chance, exam how shotguns perfrom with all 60/60 mods, define how many pellets one wants proc with those mods on, normalize others shotguns using the highest as reference".
DE is too busy producing new content, after all the last nightwave intermission is almost 5 months long now.
So, let me help you - in this instance/example, i choose Strun Wraith to have 119% chance with all mods (before the update it would require only 3 mods to achieve this), leading us to 35% status per pellet. Now, normalizing other shotguns in order to bring them to the new world
Shotgun Status/pellet Using4-60/60mods Using4-60/60mods+90%one
Strun Wraith 35,00% 119,00% 150,50%
Kuva Brakk 34,00% 115,60% 146,20%
Exergis 33,00% 112,20% 141,90%
Twin Rogga 32,00% 108,80% 137,60%
Mara Detron 31,00% 105,40% 133,30%
Boar Prime 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Kuva Drakgoon 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Kuva Kohm 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Tigris Prime 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Akbronco Prime 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Bronco Prime 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Detron 30,00% 102,00% 129,00%
Sancti Tigris 25,00% 85,00% 107,50%
Tigris 25,00% 85,00% 107,50%
Sobek 24,00% 81,60% 103,20%
Hek 22,00% 74,80% 94,60%
Kohm 22,00% 74,80% 94,60%
Vaykor Hek 22,00% 74,80% 94,60%
Drakgoon 20,00% 68,00% 86,00%
Kohmak 20,00% 68,00% 86,00%
Twin Kohmak 20,00% 68,00% 86,00%
Akbronco 20,00% 68,00% 86,00%
Bronco 20,00% 68,00% 86,00%
Boar 18,00% 61,20% 77,40%
MK1-Strun 18,00% 61,20% 77,40%
Strun 18,00% 61,20% 77,40%
Brakk 15,00% 51,00% 64,50%
Corinth 11,00% 37,40% 47,30%
Pyrana Prime 11,00% 37,40% 47,30%
Pyrana 9,00% 30,60% 38,70%
Euphona Prime 2,00% 6,80% 8,60%Observe, things were adjusted in a line, but one that doesn't produce monster buffs and stupid nerfs
does this example produces overpowered status shotguns? if yes, reduce status chance according to proportion.
does this example still nerfs status shotguns too much? if yes, please raise status chance according to proportions.
At least now, one can do this in a short amount of time, and hopefully fix these matters soon.
Godspeed
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They will probably combine it with the mod home office
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Hi,
The intermission was extended but, some of us reached its new max level (30+60), already. So, is the new episode around the corner?
Thank you for your time and hard work. And please, is just a question, you guys do lots of things so stay healthy.
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Hello,
On 2020-03-12 at 8:17 PM, nslay said:For high status shotguns, using the correct value over P ~ S/N can make as much as a 25% difference in likelihood ratio (for a 10 pellet shotgun). So even if the approximation looks similar, it does underestimate by quite a bit for the higher status shotguns.
But really... countless have complained about the "weird math" of the per-pellet chance. Let's forget about the per-shot and per-pellet relation and think in terms of expected number of pellet procs (S = N*P)! Then DE need only tune S to be the number of pellets it thinks your unmodded shotgun should proc on average. Then you get P = S / N which is what they use already!
An important fact is expected value are linear, whereas variability isn't. This fact was not taken into account before. As consequence the status shotgun mains were severely nerfed. Strun Wraith could achieve 100% status probability per pellet using only 3 of the 60/60 mods. Now, it has 12% chance meaning that using all 4 60/60 mods one will get less than 50% probability per pellet. So, it is a fact - it was nerfed - why? because the equation they design to transition between the old system and the new one was designed as being linear equation addressing a non linear problem.
There are many good procedures that could have been applied. For instance, adjust shotguns that achieved 100% status chance with 3 or 4 mods so it gets closer to this number (lets say 98 ~100%) with the same amount of mods and then, using one of them to redefine the other shotguns status probability proportionally. This would altered the game without drastically nerfing things, preserved part of the dynamic without allowing things to go out of hands.
However, i imagine there was too many things to be done for this update, and little to no time was devoted to reason about how probabilities work. They said themselves, they "pick up the shotgun box and shook it".
Hopefully, they also said they would fix if things were too broken - well things are broken. So DE Team, please, will you easy our concerns? please tell us if you intend to fix this soon?
🥺 please, tell us this time you actually sat down and worked the numbers properly. and Pretty please, 🥺 tell us that you prepared things in advance so a hotfix will work for consoles as well as for pc so we don't have to wait months with bugged shotguns in warframe - (the bugged build is in cert now - Oh God )
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Hi,
thank you for working hard and delivering content really fast for consoles (PS4, XBOX e Switch) as well. May you please look at suggestion i posted in the shotguns feedback. I posted a different method to evaluate status chance per pellet that attends many demands of the player base while keeping things in a sane level so we don't get more than 140% status chance when without using all 60/60 mods + the new 90 percent one, unless some riven is involved. It doesn't produces stupid buffers (kohms +300% status chances etc) nor produce strange nerfs (strun, phage, etc.). The reason that many critics presents in the thread is because the linear equation used to update status chances doesn't take variability (which is non-linear) neither it respected previous dynamic in the game, and henceforth, a lot of complaining.
link to spreadsheet in google drive - Spreadsheet - Proposed solution
I hope, some solution for the matter is found soon - and may it be possible using hotfix so consoles may have it as soon as the pc.
Thank you for your time and your amazing game.
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Hi Guys,
Regarding the shotguns status chance. I criticized now I offer a solution to have status per pellet.
I believe when DE decided to have status chance above 100% shotguns and raise status mods to 90% status, some shotgun would achieve almost 200% status chance without riven, at the same time, many of them would suffer greatly. So, they created a rule (multiply by 3 and divide the status between pellets), that unfortunately created monsters (kohm) and nerfed many status shotguns.
So I propose a different rule to adequate status chance. I tried to preserve behaviour we saw before update 27.2, avoid what is probably DE's main concern - extremely high status chance while using only status mods - therefore what i did respect some variability but it is not rigorous statistic. It is an heuristic to bring shotguns to where status chance above 100% are possible respecting their previous behaviour.
The Formal Problem: Avoid Weapons to have status chance above 150% using only normal status chance so multtishot mods like hell chamber and vigilante armaments to bring more than 3 status chance per pellet.
The method: Define a shotgun as reference, one achieving more that 100% chance using only 60/60mods, evaluate its status per pellet according to previous method but without the 100% cap. Adjust the probability per pellet (while the 60/60 mods are present) so it doen't exceed greatly the previous 100% threshold. Recalculate what pellet status chance when removing the 60/60 mods (remember probability per pellet is greater than 100% with 60/60 mods). Finally, use a rule of three in order to define the other non-beam shotguns status per pellet by taking the original reference shotgun status chance, the new reference status chance per pellet, and previous shotguns status chance.
I prefer the first solution, but I'm not the one to decide things. So here are my approach. The status per pellet is the one in bold
Here is the spreadsheet
Edit: Including beam weapons status fix.
Because beam weapons are not affected by multishot, and therefore have a different dynamic. Basically the previous status chance was already per beam, multiply the status probability by 3 and divide it by the number of beams would automatic and drastically nerf beam weapons with more than 3 beam (phage and phantasma) whereas beam shotguns like convectrix. So my proposal is for beam shotguns to have status chances exactly the same as before update 27.2.0. yDue their different dynamic (continuous) and because of they re few, each probability should either be defined individually based on each individual consequence or left as was before 27.2.0.
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Hi DE,
I believe it is notorius a main point of controversy. Shotguns that achieve 100% chance like strun wraith, tigris, mara detron etc. can no longer achieve 100% chance per pellet. The problem is, the equation used works linearly and variance and therefore probabilities aren't, i.e. multiply the status chance by 3 and divide the number of pellets sounds like a buff but because the introduces a tons of variance to weapons with consistent behavior and number of pellets > 3 it is actually a huge nerf for any shotgun with more than 3 pellets.
Lets take 3 examples and draw a conclusion after them.
1st example, strun wraith - originally with 40% status chance. If the build uses all 4 60/60 status mods it achieved 136% status chance and truncated at 100%. In this situation every pellet procs. If you remove the 100% limit, one should expect every pellet to proc 1 status and have 36% chance of a second proc, producing an average of 13 to 14 status per shot, without any multishot mod in the build. This sort of things were the expectations of the community after all DE said it would be a buff.
However, the equation produces the following result. (40%x3)/(10 pellets) = 12% chance of 1 proc per pellet, with all 60/60 mods one gets a status chance bellow 40% per pellet producing an average of 4 to 5 procs per pellet. The number of procs is less than half of the previous one therefore a nerf of at least of 50%.
On the other hand, Kohm (our 2nd example). The number of pellets are not stated in the wiki page, therefore we don't know the denominator used in the equation. However, something really wrong occurred here. Warframe wiki stated that status chance per pellet is ~2.93 for kuva kohm. How that can become something above 200%? We can conclude denominator used was clearly bellow 3 (2 or 1) and the numerator used was the weapon full 30% status chance. Although it is a buff, it is also a huge example of colateral effect born on some spreadheet error. I'm sure there are many who loved it, but it still a fact that such thing shouldn't have happened. What should have happened? answer: IMHO- Something that is not a spreadsheet error.
Last example Exergis - It also achieved 100% status chance. But because it has exactly 3 pellets, therefore matching the choosen multiplier, it preserved the status chance per pellet and it is an unique case where a status shotgun was preserved.
Bring balance to a game is a hard task. What DE tried, tried with good heart and good intent, they rushed math reasoning and mistakens happened. However, they can be fixed. I believe you guys have to sit down closing any programming IDE for 30 minutes. Use a sheet of paper and spreadsheet, pick the previous shotgun data one can exam each shotgun. Identify shotguns that achieve exactly 100% status chance if the cap was removed, and which ones would surpass 100% while using 60/60mods. Those are the candidates to have above 100% status chance per pellet. Therefore any definition that brings them bellow 100% status per pellet is a nerf. Study and define each status chance knowing what probabilities per pellets the status mods would produce, because they are the ones to be reproduced or buffed (i wrote buffed because DE so promised).
The other shotguns should also benefit from such procedure.
Thank you for your hardwork, time and love you guys put into this game
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Hi tenno
unfortunately, they aren't in my iventory.
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Hi tenno,
i just did a solo arbitration survival against infested (30 min). The mod combat discipline was rewarded twice in the mission. However, after extraction they weren't listed.
i noticed 3 spaces containing vitus essence but no mods.
I was in solo mode using nekros (despoil+shield of shadows mods)
thank you for you time
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Warframe Builder uptaded yeah! 😁😁😁😁😁
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Solved in recent update.
Thank You
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Hi -AxHx-Vile,
i 'm not looking for other players builds. Right now, I can't find a builder site with the current mechanics for blood rush, condition overload, primed reach, etc.
The Old Blood update changed not only the mods but many weapons stats, and equations regulating damage and dps. For instance Fragor prime on pc has 40% base crit chance.
Therefore i'm trying to find out if there is a date when warframe-builder or tennoware will update, or if there is another website with up to date info.
warframe-builder, tennoware, overframe are site built out of love for the game, i really hope they re update soon. that said i know their author have day jobs, family and others projects. Hopefully soon we can either return to build using those site or/and another site appears. until them no one will be able to post a build that communicates the current mechanics
Thank you for your time
3 hours ago, -AxHx-Vile said:The same sites...just gotta wait for people to post new builds.
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Hi Tenno,
The Old Blood Update is on its way to consoles, and it brings lots of changes for meele weapons.
So, I'm looking for websites to (re)build my meele + Vauban and Ember.
Previously, i used :
1 - warframe-builder.com
2 - tennoware.com
I found overframe.gg albeit a good site with updated info it lacks DPS calculation, especially involving combo levels.
Any suggestions? Or does anyone know when warframe-builder and tennoware will update their meele data?
p.s.: thank you to warframe-builder, tennoware, overframe and semlar sites. You all help us tenno.
Thank you Very Much
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Cephalon Joke-a-Thon Contest [Winners Announced]
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