ixidron92
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Posts posted by ixidron92
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hace 3 minutos, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:
Can you scale down the text in the OP.
yes
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hace 5 minutos, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:
Well The thing is Titania doesn’t need a massive rework to be good. She just needs to 1 replaced, entangle and full moon buffs replaced, and lantern to actually stick to the ground. She won’t be top tier but she’ll at least be a viable choice.
That sounds like pretty much every other Warframe rework. 1 ability gets replaced and some get quality of life fixes, buffs and extra functionality. Now, we just need that to happen for good instead of fixing a bug and some glaring issues and calling it a rework.
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En 29/10/2019 a las 20:22, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:
We’re already getting a rework with her deluxe.
Thorns gives DR
Razorflies will pick up tribute buffs
1-3 will he upper body animations
Doesn’t address lantern still floating away and taking half a week to return to its original position or spellbinds useless existence all NC with half of Tributes buffs, tho.
That's hardly a rework, more like a couple fo fixes, but far from rework. Did they call it that? Because I didn't read anything about it. If they claim it's a rework, it's incredibly disappointing, and the cheapest, laziest rework so far.
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Hello and welcome fellow Tenno.
This thread is at your disposal if you wish to talk about Titania, analyze her, voice your complains, propose tweaks and QoL changes or just plain theorize about her future rework, even state your proposal, your rework idea.
Considering her deluxe is already in game, and with her prime coming March/early April, best guess is her rework is finally at hand and maybe even already in development and ready to be announced next devstream.
So, it's up to us, the players, to provide feedback and make our own wish-list for the upcoming rework, compiling what's wrong with her, Titania's pros and cons and what would you personally change, tweak, remove or add.
I thank you for your support. My intention is to keep this thread active and relevant so developers can take a look at our constructive feedback and keep the wishes and desires of the playerbase in mind. For that purpose replies are welcomed, and while I pay little attention to such things, I would thank you for upvotes and likes, because that tends to get DE's attention (much more than actual quality content, sadly).
----Thank you for your participation----
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Update
New QoL changes will be shipping soon. Namely:
- Spellbind can be held to apply it to yourself
- You can finally cycle through auras ala Wisp.
- Tethered lantern!
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First, let's review and address her abilities:
Passive - Dust Bloom
Description: +25% bullet jump and rolling distance. Bullet jumping also creates a trampoline that lasts 5 seconds and grants the Upsurge buff, giving the same +25% distance to Bullet Jump and Rolling maneuvers performed in the area for her allies.
This one is pretty simple, and completely useless. 90% of the time you're gonna be flying, so no one's gonna benefit from it, and the very few times you actually use it, it's so ridiculous to think your teammates will bother trying to use your trampoline.
Opinion: Scrap it. Make a new one. To be honest, I would rather have her razorflies as a sentinel ala Venari.
1- Spellbind
Description: Titania scatters enchanted dust in a 1 / 3 / 3 / 5 meter radius around the location she aims at, up to 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 meters away. Enemies within this area will drop their weapons, become unable to perform any action while in a ragdoll state, and weightlessly float in mid-air for 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 seconds. Titania and her allies caught within the dust cloud gain immunity to status effects for the duration of the ability.
Opinion: Honestly, hardly anyone uses it at all. The cast time, the fact that it' has to be aimed on top of having a range restriction and infimum area of effect, on top of a stupid ragdoll effect that makes it do more harm than good - not to mention its functionality overlapping slightly with her lantern - making this ability hardly useful and even counterproductive. I'm not even gonna mention the status effect protection, because that seems like something thrown into the mix just because and is pretty much ridiculous. I don't think anyone is gonna shed a tear if it goes away.
But if somehow, this needs to stay, I would make it an active, toggleable aura centered around Titania and give it a few more extra support effects. For example: Projectile slow down, damage reduction, shield regeneration, etc.
2- Tribute
Description: Titania blasts an enemy up to 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters away, dealing 200 / 300 / 400 / 500 damage and forcefully separating their soul from their body, which remains in place for 15 seconds. If the target survives, their damage output is reduced by 25% for 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 seconds.
Opinion on base ability: For starters, it can't kill anything even at max strength and the damage reduction is negligible (and doesn't scale up), but it's the only interesting ability Titania has besides her Razorwing mode. It needs an overall buff.
General opinion on auras: None of the auras benefit from any of Titania's stats, making them kind of odd. At the very least, this needs to be addressed. Another big issue is the need to target a specific enemy to get a specific buff. This should be changed to the same rotating system Vauban or Wisp have. Tap to select a buff, hold to use.
Dust aura reduces the accuracy of enemies around Titania by 50%.
Opinion: By far the best and most useful aura, but it has a big problem. As enemies increase in level, their accuracy scales up, effectively rendering this aura useless. I would change that accuracy penalty to a flat 50% chance of missing their shot. That way it'd work at any level effectively.
Thorns aura will reflect 50% of the damage taken back to the attacker.
Opinion: Damage reflection in this game is the most useless thing you can get. Enemies deal very little damage compared to their HP pools. A single enemy could spend the entire duration of the buff hitting you and not even dent half its own HP. Abilities that work on taking hits are very much self-defeating and at some point (when enemies can one-shot you) useless. In my opinion it should be replaced or at the very least significantly buffed.
Entangle aura slows down enemy movement around Titania by 25%.
Opinion: Another completely pointless aura. Enemies are noticeably faster than Warframes (on foot), and even with this aura, they are still fully capable of catching up with you, not to mention, most of them have guns. In my opinion, this needs to be replaced or needs a new functionality like making it slow all enemy actions (not just movement speed)
Full Moon aura increases the damage all companions, sentinels, MOA (Companion), and Titania's Razorflies deal by 75%.
Opinion: I can't really tell if this aura does anything useful at all. If it's a multiplicative buff, it might actually have some use, but it seems kind of iffy. Honestly, I don't know what to do with this one. It's the rarest buff of them all, since you can only get it from summoned enemies and corpus ospreys. Still, the contribution of pets to the killing is usually negligible.
3- Lantern
Description:Titania sends up to 4 enemies, up to 15 / 20 / 25 / 25 meters away, hurtling into the air using her razorflies, making them invulnerable and rendering them unable to move or attack for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds. Enemies that come within 8 / 12 / 15 / 20 meters from the suspended target will be pacified and will blindly follow the target, as long as they remain within range. Enemies within 2.5 meters of the suspended target will be dealt 200 / 250 / 300 / 350 damage every second.
Opinion: We all know the main complain here: The ragdoll animation. Anchor the freaking lantern to the ground. Also, the damage is minimal. It can't even kill anything past level 30, not to mention the 2.5m area of effect is ridiculously small. The functionality is interesting, it just needs major buffs.
4- Razorwing
Description: Titania shrinks down to quarter of her original size, becoming a flying pixie.
Opinion: Everyone uses Titania just for this ability. Main complain here is how useless Diwata is. It's still missing an exalted stance, so it has a smaller energy pool than its counterparts and it's the worst exalted weapon by a long shot, not to mention: motion sickness.
You know what would actually be great: treating this like Equinox's metamorphosis and giving Titania another set of abilities during her Razorwing mode. Her primary role is a mix of support and CC, but her Razorwing clashes with that, making her an extremely aggressive, DPS oriented frame. So, why not give her new abilities to match?
So, I've been rewording and expanded on the suggestions I made beforehand. This is the result - My rework proposal:
Passive - Razorflies
Razorflies could work similarly to Venari, as an exalted pet – sentinel in this case. Fully modable with sentinel mods and, of course, a sentinel melee weapon.
They could respawn when killed 1 by 1 after a certain amount of time and every time Titania picks a Tribute.
1- New ability replacing spellbind
Sticking to Titania's role, this one could be something Support/CC oriented. Considering her other abilities are based on fairy powers (Mesmerizing, shape-shifting, illusions...), her new ability could as well be based on the other powers fairies have that aren't already present: Healing and plant manipulation, which would fit, since she's the protector of Earth's forest in Warframe's lore.
Titania could create a safe zone for allies that grant them a series of protective and beneficial buffs. Salvaging the support part of Spellbind, one could be Status Effect Inmunity. Seen the connection Titania has with the forest and specters. Sheltered Grotto would be a fitting name.
Sheltered Grotto
Titania creates an area protected by nature itself, where allies can get a respite. Anyone inside the grotto becomes invisible so long as they aren't attacking or using offensive abilities. They also gain minor (i.e: not something you can use for tanking unlike Wisp or Oberon) HP, Shield and Energy regeneration on top of status effect and knockback/knockdown immunity. Enemies are repelled back if they try to enter and receive the radiation status effect (no damage).
Functionality & justification: This ability works as a minor defensive and support ability, allowing allies to pause and recover if necessary, providing a safe zone that by its mechanics will not become obsolete even against high end content. In addition, it also functions as a zoning ability that can block a doorway for example.
The ability is based on fairy lore, seeing as how they protect certain key areas that usually contain healing springs, the heart of the forest, etc. by causing people with nefarious intentions to get lost and disoriented while allowing those with good intentions to rest.
Following Titania's kit philosophy, it's a CC and support ability with minor (or in this case, practically null) damage potential. Like lantern and tribute, the radiation status is meant to symbolize the pixies' ability to mesmerize and confuse.
2- Tribute
· Auras could scale up (or down) depending on your stats. Right now, their strength, range and duration are fixed, making them quite an oddity.
· Tributes could be selectable using the same modern mechanics you use for Vauban and Wisp. Tap to select the tribute and hold to cast.
· Effects on enemies could depend on the tribute selected (i.e: If Dust is selected and the enemy survives, they get their accuracy reduced by the same amount).
· Damage needs a serious buff. I'm not saying it should 1-shot level 100 enemies, but most Warframe abilities can kill at lest level 50-60 enemies, while this one barely kills a level 30 one. In addition, damage could change the damage type to radiation with guaranteed status effect. It would fit fairies and pixies trickster nature, as it would turn the target against its allies.
· Picking up a tribute could respawn a Razorfly. Right now, Razorflies dies in seconds to enemies over level 80, and picking up tributes only increases your max Razorfly count, but it doesn't matter, if they are all dead. So, you're forced to recast Razorwing to respawn them, making the whole process useless.
Dust: Enemies affected by dust lose sight of Titania and its allies that are 15m or more away from them. This effect is cancelled for 2 seconds after taking any hostile action or using an ability. In addition, enemies have a 50% (scales with strength) chance to miss their shots.
The other three auras could be Replaced/Reworked/Tweaked.
Thorns could get merged with Entangle (Call it, say: Entangling Brambles) into an aura that slows down all enemy actions as well as deal periodical damage and reduce enemy damage output. Damage reflection just doesn't cut it. It's a terrible mechanic that doesn't work simply because of the massive difference in HP and damage output and on top of that, it requires you to get hit, which is something you never want to do.
Full moon aura could increase power strength slightly as well as granting your (and your allies') companions with the extra damage and critical/status effect chance. Even so, companions are not known for being able to kill consistently. If that many effects feel like overkill, I would vote the power strength alone.
And the final aura could give a series of bonuses to some of the least typical stats like crit/status chance, casting animation speed, etc.
3-Lantern
Lantern and Spellbind overlap with one another, to the point of being almost identical. So, why not merge them?
· Lantern could become a placeable (ala reservoir). Titania throws a lantern that lands in the targeted area, dealing some damage and making enemies float harmlessly (in a spellbind fashion but tethered to the lantern).
· In that fashion, it could have unlimited duration (much like the reservoirs).
· Other nearby enemies will be taunted by the lantern and the floating enemies you've caught beforehand and will be forced to attack them.
· The lantern will reflect damage back in the form of radiation (see, here it makes sense, since the target is an easily replaceable proxy) and also store the damage it's been dealt.
· After its been damaged enough, the lantern releases a pulse of radiation, dealing damage to any enemy caught in its area with a chance of causing status effect. You may also hold down the button to make it release the pulse, albeit with reduced damage.
· The pulse deals a set amount of damage (modified by strength) but gains bonus damage by every enemy caught beforehand and the damage it has absorbed.
· In addition, the lantern could also project any tribute auras you might have active on yourself but will not benefit from them. (In essence, acting like a repeater antenna to your allies, in case you're out of range).
4- Razorwing
The basic functionality could stay the same (you turn into a flying pixie and gain access to Dex Pixia and Diwata).
Diwata could be buffed slightly and given 5 (10 with reactor) extra baseline energy to compensate for the lack of stance or it could draw from the Paracesis mechanic and gain extra energy with each forma.
Instead of consuming energy while active, it could work in a similar fashion to Equinox's metamorphosis. To compensate, I think its baseline cost should be much higher.
Other archwing weapons are allowed for use and can be equipped instead of Dex Pixia and Diwata.
Following the same philosophy, in Razorwing mode, Titania could gain 3 new abilities. Razorwing clashes with Titania's style. Her abilities paint her like a CC/Support frame with little offensive power, yet Razorwing does the exact opposite and turns her into an assassin frame. So, a dual mode could fit her quite nicely. Her standard form could act as the intended CC/Support role, while her Razorwing could gain 3 new abilities all based around offense and mobility.
This gives her a duality which fits quite nicely with fairies and pixies. First, we have the trickster and protector and then, the flying, angered little avengers of the forest. The fact that her abilities and roles change so drastically, makes it necessary for you to swap between modes. You'll need to swap back to your standard form if you intend to recover or if you have to recast your auras, meanwhile, her CC/Support centric kit with little or delayed damage and no mobility, makes it appealing to switch to Razorwing mode to traverse distances or go into the offensive.
New functionality - Blink
Now that archwings have it by default, why not Titania?
New ability 1 - Command Razorflies
Respawns Razorflies if they are all dead. Otherwise, Razorflies teleport back to Titania and rush towards the target area, dealing heavy slash damage and status in a line and then in a small impact area once they reach their objective, then proceed to attack the nearest enemy. If an enemy is selected, they also latch to the enemy until either is killed or you redeploy them. If an ally (or lantern) is the target, Razorwings would follow the ally unless they get too far away, or you redeploy them. Hold to recall them to you.
New ability 2 - Emerald Dustbolw
Titania creates a shockwave of pixie dust that's centered around herself and quickly expands outwards, knocking down, disarming and blinding enemies it encounters on its path as well as deflecting projectiles in flight. Deals minor radiation damage with minor chance of status effect.
New ability 3 – Razor Storm
Respawns all Razorflies if they are dead. If not, Razorflies teleport back to Titania, swirling around her like a tornado and dealing heavy slash damage and status in an area. While doing so, they are no longer acting their role. So, they will no longer draw enemy attention or become targetable by the enemy, and neither will they use their sentinel mod abilities. In addition, this ability will consume energy every second it's active. You may use Command Razorflies to send them hurling towards the targeted area (where they'll remain as a tornado) or to make them latch to an enemy, an ally, or the lantern, where they'll remain as a tornado centered around the target.
I've also resqued an old post I made over a year ago assessing Titania. It's a bit outdated and a bit lengthier, but interesting.
Let me begin by saying that I like Titania's kit and play style. It's fun and her kit is good. Good abilities but with a lot of implementation and QoL issues.
Disclaimer: The changes, tweaks and synergies I'll propose are not meant to be applied all together at once, that would make Titania ridiculously overpowered. They are merely options.
Now lets take a look at the basic frame first.
1) Titania:
Titania is very, very fragile, so much as you look at her, she explodes, even with HP mods. That's why she has Razorwing mode, to counteract this. You have Razorflies to soak damage and draw aggro and on top of that 50% evasion and enemies are less likely to shoot at you. Not to mention high speed and 3D maneuverability.
That alone should mean Titania is almost unkillable right? Well no, there are lots of enemy AoE abilities and weapons and well, we're not facing people, we're facing AIs, they miss because they are programmed to miss, but they also hit when they are supposed to hit. So, at some point the RNG is gonna decide that it's time to shoot at and hit Titania, which at high level it usually means you're pretty much down. I think Titania players can feel identified when I say that I'm usually the player with the least damage taken but the most times getting downed. That's because Titania relies on avoiding damage. Other frames can resist damage and have abilities to prevent, avoid or heal damage, on top of parkour and maneuvers which every frames has access too and can also avoid or reduce damage taken (rolling for example).
Another problem I find with Titania is her low energy for a "spellcaster/support/CC" type frame. Her abilities are mean to be used constantly, specially her Tribute. Simply put, spamming abilities while maintaining Razorwing is a problem when it comes to energy management and staying out of Razorwing to cast abilities is not viable because you are very fragile. So this means people just use Razorwing, shoot at the enemy and ignore her other 3 abilities.
Slow casting speed is also another problem. Combined with the fact that she needs to stand still while in her normal form, this is just another reason why people just use her Razorwing mode and not her abilities.
What I'm proposing here are 2 possible changes:
- Increasing her baseline stats. That way she can also use her standard form instead of staying in Razorwing mode permanently. Alternatively she could have higher stats on her standard form, but reduced stats on Razorwing mode.
- Some form of consistent damage mitigation. I'll explain later when we get to her other abilities.
2) Spellbind:
Spellbind is a good CC ability (with some bonus support) that's barely usable because of the stupid Ragdoll mechanics. This is the same problem Lantern has. If you hit an enemy they end up half the map away. honestly though. Removing ragdoll mode from this ability and Lantern would make them 100% viable and most people would be happy if that were the only changes. This is my main and only complain here. the ability on itself is great but few people uses it because it's counterproductive. Instead of having enemies moving slowly on a predictable 2D pattern, you have enemies moving quickly on a random 3D pattern.
I find this ability redundant. You already have Lantern as a major CC ability that disables, damages and clusters enemies. I think it needs new synergies or mechanics to justify the overlap with Lantern. For example:
- It could serve as an area denial if the ability stayed on the area and entrapped new enemies that enter inside.
- It could double as a support ability if the ability stayed o the area and provided some buffs like healing, energy regeneration or damage reduction.
Still, the overlap with lantern really kills how useful the ability can be. A brand new ability or an overhaul making it more support orientated could be another option.
3) Tribute:
Now, this is an ability with potential. I like the mechanics of extracting the soul of the enemy and gaining a buff. It's a good support ability or it would be if the buff was not dependent on the enemy type. There needs to be another way to get the buffs, something that's more reliable and controllable. Here I propose 2 ideas:
- Buffs are gained sequentially. First you get dust, the second time you pick up the soul, you get another stack of dust and thorns, the 3rd time you get another stack of dust, another stack of thorns and entangle, etc. This would allow to keep more buffs up at the same time but making certain buffs harder to get.
- The Vauban way. Tap to select the buff, hold to cast. This allows more freedom to choose the buff, but you won't be able to get all the buffs constantly up at the same time. Alternatively, you could get stacks of Tribute instead of stacks of a single buff, and cicle through the multiple buffs. That means you can only keep one buff active at a time, but it would be easier to keep it up and less energy intensive.
Other than being more controllable, Tribute needs to deal more damage. It can't kill level 20 enemies with 220% power strength. However, if they want Tribute to be a pure support, Tribute could also grant health orbs or overshield pickups instead.
Dust: It's the most useful buff Tribute can grant, hands down, this is what I was talking about when I said she needed some form of consistent damage mitigation. The problem is, dust is not consistent, it's pure RNG, same as evasion. Still, dust is the most viable buff Tribute can grant. On Razorwing mode you are untouchable as long as you don't stand still. On standard mode, I couldn't notice much of a difference. To make it more consistent, useable and less reliant on RNG, Dust could also grant armor/damage reduction or damage absorption (Like Rhino's Iron Skin or Nezha's Warding Halo).
Still, all the other buffs from Tribute are downright terrible. No, seriously, go test them. They are all completely useless on any situation.
Thorns: Enemies have a lot of HP compared to us. Even Inaros' max HP pales in comparison with your run of the mill low level charger. This is because we deal a lot of damage. Since we also have very little health, this also means enemies deal very little damage. You see now why this buff is completely useless? I've tested it. Damage reflected is completely ridiculous, level 5 enemies deal around 7 damage to themselves. I let them hit me for the full duration of the buff and they only took half their own HP. At levels 100+, enemies deal about 30-40 damage to themselves, at levels 100+, most enemies have well over 100k HP. See my point? enemy HP and damage scaling simply make this buff completely useless. It needs to deal a percentage based damage, like 1% damage dealt to enemy HP per hit per stack. Alternatively, it could drain a percentage of enemy HP every second. That way you don't punish good players capable of using parkour and maneuvers to avoid damage.
Entangle: A weak enemy slow on a small area around you. Need I say more? Movement speed debuffs are probably one of the worst things you can use on a game where most enemies shoot at you. Even with the debuff at max strength, every single melee unit was still able to catch up with me while sprinting. This is because melee units tend to be faster so they can close the gap. It could be useful if it also slowed attack speed and the area and slow were also higher or scaled with power strength.
Full moon: I was unable to get real numbers on this one because your pet's damage doesn't show up in the simulacrum. I'm not sure if the damage is actually additive or multiplicative. If it's additive then it's underwhelming, if it's multiplicative then it might be actually useful. Specially if it affects Razorflies. Still, I don't think 75% damage increase to pets, even if it's multiplicative, would make much of a difference. Personally, this buff seems off, doesn't really fit the theme and I would replace it with something else.
Tribute is the only ability that needs a full, complete, rework. All current buffs need to be overhauled. Honestly, Entangle and Full Moon are terrible at their core, even with several buffs and tweaks I don't think they could ever be useful.
Even if all buffs get reworked, Tribute is still an ability that's very energy intensive and gives very little reward. You need 5 stacks of a single buff for it to be truly useful. Maintaining more than 1 buff at full strength is a ridiculous micromanaging task.
4) Lantern:
Same problem as Spellbind, the ragdoll mechanics. what I was expecting when I first used the ability was to get enemies to cluster, but I've got the opposite effect as the lantern flew away at match 2 speed across the map. Basically that means the lantern becomes useless after getting shot, as it flies too far away for the enemies to notice anymore and too far away for the explosion and the razorflies to be meaningful (not that it matters, since the explosion fails to kill anything above level 40 even with high strength and razoflies+explosion fail to kill anything at levels 60+). I'm not gonna complain about the damage, since this is primarily a CC ability, but the numbers could use some tweaking.
5) Razorwing:
The razorwing has a lot, and I mean a lot of QoL issues.
- The slam damage and knockback. It might make sense in Archwing mode, as you're travelling at a ludicrous speed, but on Razorwing you're actually slower than most people parkouring. Also, smaller things can take bigger hits and at higher speed than larger things, with less effects. So, it makes no sense to keep that mechanic.
- Doors, they don't react well with Razorwing, so you're constantly slamming headfirst into them. Because of your small model, doors can't detect you properly until you're literally touching them. This has nothing to do with speed, any normal frame with Volt's speed boost can be faster than Titania on Razorwing mode and door will react just fine with them.
- The blur effect that nearly blinds you from time to time. Why is this a thing?
- Some particle and VFX effects do not scale in size with Titania. That means they are as big as Titania on normal form and obstruct visibility. This is specially noticeable with Volt's speed boost and rift corruption.
- Vacuum. We need vacuum on Razorwing. Period.
- You can't interact with anything.
- You sink through the floor of the elevator. (Granted, this is a bug)
6) Dex Pixia
Dex Pixia is almost perfect as a weapon. I have only one single suggestion, making the default ammo 80. Why 80? Well, that's the perfect number so you don't get out of ammo constantly, but you can't fire continuously either. I've tested this for hours and hours and 80 is just the most comfortable number without being overpowered.
7) Diwata:
Well, it works, it's functional. For a exalted weapon the damage is pretty subpar. Main problem is that it lacks a stance mod because it's a copy&paste from the archwing melee weapon code. So, that 10 less energy means we have to use extra forma. Another problem is that when you're using it you're more likely to slam into things than you are to attack the enemy. On top of that, the autolock means the weapon cannot headshot, ever. This is the only melee weapon that could have a noticeable headshot potential because you could control were it hits, since you are small and have 3D maneuverability, but the autolock takes that away from you.
Even if Diwata became a useful melee weapon with good stats, I would still see no point in using it as you would still lack of combos, headshots, slide and slam attacks as well as the many features that make melee useful. On top of that, Dex Pixia is a superb weapon, range, status, damage, you can use it on the move at long range without exposing yourself. Diwata, on the other hand, requires you to fly headfirst into the fray, which is something you do not want to do with a frail long range caster. If it had some kind of synergy or interesting mechanic it could be worth it.
8] Razorflies:
Razorflies do not scale properly with enemy level. Against high level enemies they evaporate on an instant and deal almost no damage. All I can say is that they need to have their HP and Damage scale better.
Still, I really, really wish they were moddable like Venari. If they were moddable, all the utility the sentinel mods can provide will be more than enough to counteract a lot of problems Titania has.
And before you make it an ugment like you did with Octavia's resonator, please, allow us to command Razorflies. The alt fire button is free while on razorwing mode in both Diwata and Dex Pixia. It could be used to command Razorwings to move or attack.
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En 26/10/2019 a las 22:40, Datskin dijo:
I played conclave just the enough time to reach the lvl of a noob, and even that i bet is more than the average of players actually play it, with this introduction of myself i would like to ask to conclave veterans, bcz like someone said above, they have the perspective to find solutions. Since Complexity and Movility is the matter here. What do you think about a paralel mode with Operator pvp? (original idea from a fellow tenno lorisey).
En 26/10/2019 a las 23:09, Tyreaus dijo:There's a few big problems with Operator Conclave:
- Abilities go out the window (since they're tied to Warframes)
- Operator abilities (invisibility, dashing, etc.) and Focus tree stuff would probably have to be A: removed or B: adjusted for Conclave, or else people who've gone through Focus trees are going to be much more powerful
- People have to get past The War Within to play that form of PvP, and if it's the only form of PvP, that's cutting out part of the audience.
- Does it actually solve the mobility issue when Void Dashing is still a thing? It'd improve the walljump-chaining part, but I can also see the mobility becoming quite hectic (esp. with latency) with what basically becomes teleporting all over the place.
I mean, with the Duviri Paradox coming along and possibly introducing new Operators, it's possible they could try it with an event to see how people like it. It wouldn't be that difficult to disable focus trees and arcanes and take out the invisibility + invulnerability of void mode. But I don't think it'd be a worthy replacement of what we have.
I do like the idea of operator conclave, and it could work (and probably better than warframe PvP). I mean, people are excited about adult operators using guns, and the fact that they all have the same 4 abilities and mobility is limited could make it work pretty nicely. You'd have to rebalance operator energy, of course. You can't have one dude spending a minute in stealth or void dashing 300 times. At best, I think operator energy should recharge slower and you could dash like twice with a full pool or spend 3-5 seconds in void mode.
About the arcanes and focus trees. I think they should all be unlocked and adjusted for PvP (or make new PvP arcanes or get rid of that system entirely. Like mods, it's complexity for the sake of complexity and is best to avoid them).
Best would be to give X conclave focus points so players could make their own builds however they like. Say, you get like 20 conclave focus points and each node of the focus tree costs 1 point and you can do as many different builds as you want, saving them as laodouts and resetting them for free. Of course, all amp pieces are unlocked by default and you can edit your amp and make as many loadouts as you want as well, without restrictions.
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hace 2 horas, ByroSphere dijo:
Specters may have aimbot, but they don’t have the accuracy of a mouse. Most players are capable of following a target with their sights, what they generally suck at is to compensate lack of natural speed with pinpoint accuracy.
If aim assist exsted for the low damage pershot auto weapons, all it would do is reduce the skill requirement from needing to be pixel accurate, to just cursor accurate. Snipers would still remain the better weapon for aces even if only auto weapons got aim assist, because snipers would still kill you faster if you were skilled enough to aim with it (which most veterans already are). Auto Weapons simply would become more viable and beginner friendly, but it’s downside of having low dps in bursts, would still balance it out with the other weapon classes.
I know that this works, because I have experience of playing games that solve the issue of relative high speed with better practical accuracy, and some of them only give aim assist to low damage but high fire rate weapons, all so that they can counter high damage single shot weapons who are more player accuracy reliant. Aim Assist is more than a clutch when it has been proven to work in multiple games, you just gotta look outside of that 1 game genre were it’s uncommon.
Also as far as slowing the playstyle down is concerned, we already had it once. And although it kinda did make even the auto weapons more useful, this slowdown also made the game more stale, because people were relaying on the aim glide more than everything. Everyone was using about the same tactics there and that felt boring. Now that it’s fast, even though the dodging isn’t that skill demanding, people where shown to be more innovative in how they manuever around with the ADS aimgliding restrictsion, and although I was getting my bum kicked more than usual, it just felt so dang cool to see those sick changes in moves, plus the general rush of power that this speed general gives the players. It’s just that newbs have no way to reliably hit their opponents, even when veteran aces already have their ideal weapon class, which means only veterans gets to enjoy any considerable kills with weapons that suits them.
The idea to slow Conclave down because “slow playstyles work in other games”, is no excuse when there also exist fast games that works. Again, why not use other games that have solved the speed issue without slowing down, as an example, instead of games who are slow by nature?
What I meant when I talked about specters is that compensating for slow projectile is not something you want at all. Imagine for the sake of the argument that Junkrat had Soldier76's ult. It would be stupid, wouldn't it? You need to arc the grenades, you need to predict where the target will be, but the stupid aimbot keeps pointing dead center at a target that's too far away and moving too fast. Well, the same could be said here if you use the Tonkor or Penta and have that stupid aim correction.
Look, aim assist simply doesn't work in shooters, and you might be the only person I've ever read requesting it. No one wants to get killed by something that is simply considered a cheat by most people, and I doubt developers of any serious shooter would consider giving aim assist to anything but console players that use a controller. Hell, people complained about the Overwatch aim assist because console users were using a special keyboard and mouse that lied, telling the console it was actually a controller so they could keep mouse accuracy+aim assist and it was chaos.
Seriously, go in-game, ask people if they'd like aim assist for conclave. The global answer is gonna be a resounding and collective NO. Meanwhile, ask them what their main concerns about conclave are (something I did). The answers were: 1-mobility too fast making the gamemode too frustrating 2-Lack of dedicated servers giving the advantage to the host.
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hace 4 horas, Tachmag dijo:
Do this:for a month, instead of dedicating yourself to play PvE, use that time to learn to play PvP a little better. Then, come back to this post and check if you still believe aim assist is the solution.
You know, I hate that S**ty argument, and no matter what you're talking about, it always pops up, in every discussion, anywhere. Next time you wanna criticize the government, come back after you've had presidential experience.
I'm sorry, but I've seen comments like those in dozens of forums and discussions and I really have no patience left to explain to people who wouldn't be happy unless the top one of the world come down and told them in the face that the system is crap and needs a major rework, why their argument is just one of the many logical fallacies that sound good but mean jack sh*t in a debate.
hace 3 horas, ByroSphere dijo:In either case, I really just find it so strange how people can prefer nerfing the mobility´(which is one of the main hights of this game) to the point that it doesn't feel as fun anymore, instead of giving a underperforming weapon class aim assist... I just can't understand. Isn't it supposed to be fun in the end?
Because it works in other games. That's why. Aim assist is just a clutch. People need to be able to hit stuff, and aim assist is not the way to do it, it's a literal cheat and players dislike it. People will attribute every kill to lack of skill and AI assistance instead of skill and there will be #*!%ing riots. You're not fixing a problem, you're creating another one. At least, if mobility is up to standard with other games, projectile weapons will have a chance, because you know what? Assault rifles are 10 times better that the ignis or the arca plasmor or whatever other AoE weapons in terms of raw damage per shot and overall DPS, and once you can actually hit something with a rifle, you can learn the game, acquire experience and learn to aim, which is the opposite of what you can do with aim assist or the current system.
right now, people get in, see other people zooming around, dodging everything and spamming AoE, miss all their shots, quit and don't even bother coming back.
What you're proposing will turn the experience into the following: Noob gets in, someone snipes him full auto from across the map, newbie blames the stupid built in aimbot, quits and doesn't try again, because, yeah, when you give everyone aimbot, it all boils down to who knows how to abuse it better. And know what? aimbot sucks for projectile and short range weapons. Specters have aimbot, give them a projectile weapons and watch the miss every shot. People who want to use bows will rage because the built in aim assist is screwing with their shots, and people who get shot from across the map will rage because other people are making impossible shots thanks to a freaking computer program and not their own skill.
In the end, computer assisted aiming only degrades skill and makes everyone mad.
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En 24/10/2019 a las 17:23, --CV--Agilis dijo:
Just fair warning, you're about to hear a small rant about your stereotypical veteran, but HOLY HELL, please stop bringing back cosmetics. Mods and weapons, I can completely understand. But cosmetics?! You know how much of a grind the first Nightwave was? I spent hours grinding out that armor, literally some challenges taking hours to complete. Then once I finally got to the part where I get the armor, dear God, that felt great. And then, I thought I had a cool armor set to show off my work... Oh but no, you got all those whiners who wanted it back, and now all they gotta do is get it through this easy as hell version of Nightwave. Now I might be the only one who even cares, but it just sucks to know that the grind I went through was all just a big fat waste of time, because now anyone can get it with ease.
This isn't the first time it's happened, either. Anyone remember The Pacifism Defect tactical alert? It was by far, besides that most recent one for the Orb Vallis, just stupid time consuming. But guess what? I still finished it and got the Harkonar Wraith armor set and Syandana. Hell, I've still got the messages in my Inbox from Cressa Tal signifying I did. But then, Mr. Ki'Teer comes around, and gives it out for mere Ducats and Credits to any ole' chap that just so happens to have some. As I said earlier, I do not mind the addition of the exclusive Vandal weapons or whatever else being re-released, as they are something that actually effects gameplay, but cosmetics are something that DOESN'T.
So yeah, I'm just your old grumpy veteran and everyone is just gonna say "nobody cares" or "it's for the players that didn't have the chance." You know what? I come from a place where your cosmetics symbolized a whole lot more than a fancy showoff, but an actual achievement that people would admire and then inspire them to become better or something else along those lines. Because, as one wise man once said, once everyone is super, nobody is super.
Dude, I had to grind the last 3 levels capturing fugitives because I joined way too late. I spent an entire week grinding in Orb Vallis, and I don't give a #*!% about the armor returning. It only means I can skip the last level.
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En 24/10/2019 a las 3:44, MystMan dijo:
A big flaw in the Armored Core comparison is that you couldn't (over)boost forever, you had to take breaks and recharge your boosting power or be forced in a long cooldown session without being able to boost if you allowed yourself to overheat, making yourself very vulnerable. In Warframe there is no such limitation, you can bulletjump forever. Bringing back the stamina bar exclusively for conclave would make much more sense and make it more comparable in line with other contemporary more populated pvp games.
And the TTK in Armored Core is much higher since we're talking about giant mechs. Also, there are massive missile barrages that auto-lock and seek you out, something Warframe doesn't have. (Nyx' psychic bolts is the closest thing and you can't spam that).
En 24/10/2019 a las 7:46, ByroSphere dijo:You may not over boost consecutively in Armored Core as a whole, but in the For Answer game (which is kinda an od case in the franchise, and my main example), you can practically spam the boost in small bursts so long there is at least a second long break between each of them. Warframe’s Bullet jump is similar, in that you can spam it in specific conditions (after a wall jump or when landing on ground), but in general you can only bullet jump once in midair, while since this is the most reliable way to avoid fire and cover long distances, players tend to always use up this jump early on.
It might seem op as of now, because most weapons needs multiple hits to be lethal, when the bullet jumps allows you to completely avoid most weapons projectiles with extreme ease, even to the extent that you can pretty much follow your opponents with the crosshairs with almost none of the bullets hitting cause the area the projectiles cover compared to the opponent’s mobility, is too small.
As I pointed out before, there are ways to deal with these erratically manuverable opponents without needing to become super perceptive, and the trick is; to not deal with them when they are moving erratically.
The thing about moving so fast and unpredictable that barely anyone can hit you, is that it becomes nearly impossible for you to shoot as well, making the conclave’s dynamic become something along the lines of “be unpredictable but aim crap, or be predictable but pull your weight”.
But since the game doesn’t exactly point this out, while the newbes who decides to quit after a couple matches generally lacks the interest to seek up guides from veterans, I guess the gameplay needs to make some changes after all.
Now, the reason why I want to include some form of aim correction instead of slowing the gameplay or restricting the movements, isn’t just because it would make the speed viable for PvP, but it would also make it so that brains are required to be able to avoid getting killed with the bullet jumps/rolls and slides remaining the same.
As the game is right now, it’s so mind numbingly easy to avoid getting killed, that noobs will have trouble to even kill other newbes, while it’s fairily difficult to get any kills, because the “impossible shots” are like the only things that requires considerable skills in conclave. Making it so that newbes are only successful at running away but otherwise incapable at gaining much if any kills, while veterans remain unchallenged either because they are skilled enough to pull off “impossible shots”, or have enough experience to know that you should time your assaults to when your opponents aren’t moving crazily.
If the none-1hk weapons covered a wider area than just the size of tiny bullets (which it would have if the guns had a wide aim correction box tied to the crosshairs) then players would need not only skill to evade, but also the experience to time your jumps and rolls effectively with their natural limits. This would mean that noobs who got neither will die a lot, but they will also kill much more often, since now they not only would shoot down noobs who try to run away, but they also could take down veterans who were too careless. And well, it’s far more rewarding to kill even when you die a lot, than it is to survive a whole game without killing anybody.
But for the Auto Aim Correction to work well, the Warframes needs to be made at least as fast as in PvE, because if everyone moves too slow, then everyone would kill everyone before anyone has a chance to react with the AAC... And I want the speed instead of slow down, because what is the point of a PvP mode for a game if it doesn’t feel as fluid and quick as in its PvE modes?
Armored core is a console (and mobile) exclusive game, so of course, there are tons of aim assists and lock on features, but remember that the game is built with that in mind from the very beginning and it makes sense in the setting. the aim assist/lock on features are integrated and explained, since they are mechs and have that technology, not to mention, the massive mobility calls for those features.
Here in Warframe we have no basis for aim assist, and to be honest, what makes mobility so freaking obnoxious is the way you can chain it. One bullet jump in open terrain won't save you from someone with good aim, but in some maps like Cephalon citadel and Mars, where you can bounce, bullet jump, gale kick and repeat ad nauseam, easily escaping thanks to that massive labyrinth of walls and pillars.
It is too easy to avoid getting killed, but not because some people can't track you - which sure, some people just can't because their skill and coordination will never be enough - but because it's so easy to lose you. You can't pull that S#&$ off in Lua's main room for example.
Aim assist is not the way to go, and it shouldn't be the way to go in any shooter, to be honest. It's just a cheap patch, not a real fix. Helping newbies hit veterans by artificial means is only gonna cause problems.
Instead, mobility should be reduced so new players have a chance to have fun and learn the game, acquire skill and experience and eventually pull off more complicated maneuvers themselves.
I still believe that many small fixes that only serve to promote the game mode instead of fixing the main issue that makes it so undesirable and unfun to play will only serve as temporary stopgap measures. Sure, you'll get a slight uptick of players - because promotion (duh) - and then you'll lose those players again. now, I don't say those things aren't gonna help at all, they would be welcomed changes, but first, one have to tackle the issue, make Conclave worthwhile playing and then implement those tweaks to make it appealing.
Pretty much everyone agrees that mobility is the issue (in some way or another) alongside the P2P connection giving the advantage to the host (which, seriously DE, that has to stop. we need dedicated servers).
With enough support here on the forums, we can get that changed.
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hace 8 minutos, ByroSphere dijo:
Except the obstacles in Warframe are often put on the sides, while being tall enough that you could even climb on them. In those cover shooters however, the obstacles are ofted laid in the middle of the battlefield, low or small enough that you can aim on them from above/the side, but still big enough to cover you from fire.
There is also difference in how the obstacles are used. While in Warframe, anything that isnt an enemy or out of bounds, are used as footholds to manuever around. But in the cover shooters, the obstacles are mostly used as covers to hide behind.
Not to say that there are no obstacle that can’t be used for cover in Warframe, but 1 or 2 big objects in a game that mostly use the obstacles as platforms, does not a cover shooter make.
There's a reason why people prefer Lua over Cephalon Citadel or Mars. Lua has a big open area where mobility is less useful, while the other 2 are freaking mazes that reward AoE spam.
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hace 4 minutos, Genitive dijo:
That's true, I forgot it also counts ores into the act.
What drill were you using? I still find it hard to believe it can take you so long. Either something's wrong or you are extremely unlucky.
Sunpoint, first thing I bought when they released Fortuna, and yes, extremely unlucky, thought on average, it can take upwards to 20 minutes or more to get those 6 rares.
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That time it took me 2 hours I thought I was being lucky when I found 10 blue nodes right at the exit of fortuna, only to get 10 goblite tears (with Sunpoint plasma drill). BTW, it's not just rare gems, rare ores also count, so you can mine red nodes too.
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hace 1 minuto, ByroSphere dijo:
It is dissimilar in a very important principle. In those games, the key factor for survival is covers, and the stages in those games reflects that.
In Warframe the key factor is not covers (they are practically none existent, actually), but rather mobility. To ignore this and insist that Conclave should play as CoD, is nothing but a grave error, when you consider that the game as a whole (from the gameplay mechanics to stage layout) inst made in a way that supports that play style.
Uh? covers are a very important factor. Maps here are incredibly cramped, and to make full use of mobility you need a lot of obstacles. Hell, if maps were big and open, mobility wouldn't be that much of an issue. It's the fact that you can chain jumps of a wall what makes mobility so broken.
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Warframe is not dissimilar to many other PvP class/hero based shooters like Destiny, Overwatch, TF2, Paladins, etc. The main difference here is the insane mobility sure, but if the problem is mobility, you simply fix the problem, not add a clutch so the problem can be somewhat ignored. Aim assist is simply that, a clutch. It doesn't solve the problem, it just masks it.
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That single task is not only completely devoid of skill, it also boils down entirely to luck and can be really infuriating. At least, you can lure fishes during the rare fishing task, but you can't lure rare minerals. It's completely random and can be done in 2 minutes or 2 hours (and I experienced both situations).
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Aim assist is always a terrible idea for shooters (unless it's console). I maintain my point: It'd be best to reduce/restrict mobility overall and compensate later on with mobility mods.
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hace 5 minutos, OGsouth dijo:
As someone who plays conclave a good amount, i can really see both sides of this arguement. For me, i think there needs to be a better ranking system, but thats the flaw right there.. we dont even have enough players online in conclave to seperate anything into ranks, so all skill levels are stuck together with each other.
I enjoy skilled lobbies. But new players dont. And recruit conditioning doesnt really cut it, its almost like theres only 2 ranks.
..but adding more ranks makes lobbies even more scarce. So IMO the only "solution" needed for conclave is to either
1. Find ways to bring in new players, and better ways tk educate people on mobility, etc.
2. Leave it as it is
Any option other than these 2 doesnt work in the eyes of DE, because they need insentive to work on conclave and the only incentive is more players joining..
Im putting it really simply but thats how i see it
Well, DE is a rare example among developing teams. They are willing to scrap an entire system and rebuild it from scratch, which so far, seems almost unique for developers. A big mainline overhaul of the whole PvP system after a couple of devstreams is bound to attract players, not to mention those disgruntled with the current system might give it another chance.
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I once calculated the top speed of a Warframe using all the possible speed boosting stuff in a 4 man squad. The result was mach 21 (that would be twice the escape velocity. Translated: You can enter high orbit). And that was pre Gauss.
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En 22/10/2019 a las 0:23, Sevek7 dijo:
Yes, that's why I said it. It's not because it's unbalanced, not because the mobility is bad, but because it's hard. Some people like a challenge!
Yeah it's been hard to find matches for me recently too. I think when the new update comes it will be easier. (Note: others have suggested a server browser which would go a long way to fixing this issue.) Also, have you tried turning off recruit conditioning?
Yeah, conclave sadly isn't accessible to the majority of the playerbase due to the extremely high skill ceiling. There is of course a way to fix that - server browser again - but that idea just doesn't seem to get traction for some reason. The point is, there are simple suggestions that we should try first, before we consider radically changing the entire game-mode. Perhaps you're right, maybe we need to remove the uniqueness of warframe in order to make the PvP popular. But can we please try the other, simpler things first?
Here's an analogy, if your lamp stops working, do you try changing the lightbulb? Or do you immediately start rewiring the entire house? I'm suggesting we try changing the lightbulb first.
You're right, I shouldn't blindly defend the game-mode. There are several criticisms about it that are certainly valid - and you'll find those criticisms being made here in the forums by experienced conclavers. I've made feedback posts with suggestions for change as well. However, let me make another analogy here. Let's say you meet someone who just finished Vor's Prize, and has a rank 12 Mk-1 Braton with the damaged mods on. They proceed to tell you about their idea for a fun, challenging endgame mode in warframe. Their idea is that your warframe has no shields for the entire mission. Obviously, as an experienced player, you know that shields are way less useful than health at the higher level of the game. But, to a new player, shields are extremely useful. So, their idea is bad. It's not their fault, they just haven't played long enough to understand. We shouldn't beat them over the head about it, but we're also not going to take their idea seriously. So we say okay, great, nice enthusiasm, but play for a while longer and you'll come up with better ideas. Of course they might be offended that we didn't take their idea seriously, but one day they'll look back and understand why.
The last thing you said is important: "Experience matters, but that doesn't mean legitimate concerns should be dismissed just because that guy is less experienced." Yes, experience matters, I don't ask my plumber to fix my health problems. At least not until my plumber has finished one year of med-school. Then I'll start listening a bit. And you're right, if an inexperienced person brought a legitimate concern, we would all listen. But all your concerns have been brought before. We've discussed them a hundred times. If you were the first to have suggested reduced mobility, it would have been an interesting conversation. But, conclavers have discussed this possibility. At length. Many times. So, it's not because you're less experienced, it's because we're repeating the past.
Even if some people like the challenge, PvP shouldn't be dictated by what the best players say. Successful PvP appeals to everyone. In my opinion, the best and easiest way to do that would be reducing mobility overall. Perhaps measures could be taken to increase mobility later on for those experienced players, but if we want PvP to appeal to the majority first, mobility is the biggest issue to tackle. Not everyone has the same skill ceiling, not everyone has the same hand-eye coordination, reflexes let alone time to invest to gain experience and hone your skills. You might like PvP the way it is, but the overall numbers don't lie, we have millions of players and insanely long queues just to find a match. that alone should tell you PvP isn't appealing enough to the majority.
It is insanely hard to find matches. With recruit conditioning off it's probably harder, because it's on by default and people don't even notice it, but yeah, the quality has increased, albeit marginally.
I don't see how a server browser would fix the high skill requirement. Look, everyone wants to try different smaller things first. It's our human instinct. We don't like big changes and prefer small gradual changes, but this is simple: It won't work. People here have suggested tons of different changes, but all of them are just incentives, promotion, advertisement, rewards. None of them are fixed. A server browser or a training mode still won't fix the main issue. PvP is not appealing because the requirements to play it at a fun, enjoyable level are too damn high for most people. Minor modifications that make PvP more noticeable but don't fix the basic mechanics that make it unappealing will only result in small temporal upticks of players followed by a return to the old almost abandoned state.
Yeah, but if you notice your plug is sparking, perhaps it's not the light-bulb, but alright, you change the lightbulb and the plug is still sparking and everyone around you notices that an tells you to fix it, but no, you'll better change the lightbulb again just in case the new one you've bought is defective, and if that doesn't work you change the lamp, but the plug is still sparking, maybe buy another lamp? Look, we all want to fix stuff the cheap and easy way first and that just ends up being a massive waste of time, money and resources if the basic issue isn't addressed. No, when the issue is so glaringly obvious, small fixes just won't cut it.
I won't deny that experience gives perspective, but also brings a lot of stubbornness. The more time you've invested in something, even if the concept is originally flawed, the less likely you're to accept new changes, and the bigger then changes the higher one rejects them. Sure, new players might be wrong, but maybe they are damn right and knowledgeable or smart enough to analyze a situation, identify the problem and come up with a solution, only to be dismissed because "not enough experience". That's actually a plague in modern society, not just this particular game tbh. I prefer to hear everyone out and reply with an argument and an explanation of why they're right or wrong than dismissing their idead outright just because they are new. sure, I haven't invested 200 hours in conclave, but I have several hours under my belt as well as knowledge from many more games, and this is not the first PvE oriented game I encounter that has issues with making a serviceable PvP mode. The reason is always the same: they try to apply PvE logic and mechanics to PvP and that simply doesn't work.
You should then analyze why we're repeating the past. When the same issue is brought to attention by so many disconnected people over time, perhaps there is a lingering problem that should be addressed there.
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Aim assist is something ridiculous for PC games. I could see it working for console, since that's the norm, but no self respected PvP shooter should have aim assist built in for PC.
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hace 5 horas, ByroSphere dijo:
Well, actually, if we are going to talk about PvE games having success even when their PvP modes shared the exact game mechanics as the rest of the game... Have you heard about Armored Core For Answer? It had about as much if not even more freedom in loudout customization than Warframe, while ALSO having crazy levels of mobility with little to no restrictions, all while still being fairly successful for its time.
If we are going to implement mechanics of other successful games, then I think it should be based on factors that doesn’t lessen Warframe’s main appeal, which is the speed and acrobatics... And well, if you have played Conclave recently, you will notice that they have already toned down the speed aspect quite significantly (even Loki feels heavy as Rhino). So I don’t think it’s a good idea to make the game even slower.
If changes need to be made in the core mechanics, rather than making the Warframes slow enough that even a inexperienced newbe can manually aim and hit them, how about applying some minor auto aim correction mechanic within the crosshairs? That way at least you can maintain the speed (if not increase it back up to PvE lvls), but at the sametime decrease the player accuracy needed to keep up.
The auto aim correction could vary depending on weapon class too, like rifles and machine guns could have a wide area to secure more hits, Snipers and Bows will have a very small AAC area, while wide AOE weapons of any type in general should not have any at all (counting weps with projectile/blast radius wider than 0.5m).
They also could increase the base Shields, HP and Armor of every frame to give more room for rookie mistakes without getting insta killed, and decrease the time limit so that the match wouldn’t feel too dragged out (5min tops).
If that is not enough to make up for newbes lack of experience, then I would suggest to lock the Conclave behind a mastery rank, so that they will have enough understanding about the gameplay to handle it by the time they have it unlocked (MR 5 is the minimum that I’d suggest).
Other necessary changes, would involve increasing the Conclave’s reward pool (particularly a rotating one that has a bit of everything, a la Nightwave), while making all conclave items/gear/upgrades you have done on the conclave be useable for the rest of the game. All so that players can invest their time on it without having to worry about missing out desirable loot.
I didn't know about Armored Core (I don't even own a console). After checking some of it's gameplay and reading about its features, I don't see how it can compare. It was built with a heavy PvP component developed alongside PvE. Sure, lots of loadouts can work and it's nothing unheard of, but in the case of Warframe we're talking about mods, weapons and the Warframe itself, each and everyone unique on its own.
I definitely disagree about aim assist. That's a console thing. Armored core for example has tons of aim assist and guided munitions to compensate for its fast pace and even so a 1v1 duel can last for 10 minutes as players spam heat-seeking missiles and take potshots at each other. Funnily enough, that's similar to what happens in Warframe: spam and AoE weaponry. You can't simply fix a fundamental problem by adding a clutch. Sure, it would help newbies, but it wouldn't do them any good in the long run. Once you get used to it, you can land hits with hit-scan weapons, but the problem is that not everyone has the same skill ceiling and PvP needs to be accessible by everyone.
And again I disagree about adding conclave items that are usable outside of conclave. In a PvE focused game, that would lead to a wave of complains. Unless you're referring to formas, affinity and stuff? Which is already a thing. You can level up a weapon or frame in Conclave if you wish.
hace 2 horas, Tachmag dijo:Veterans ARE that much better.
Aim Assist would lower the skill cap by a massive amount and make high level Conclave terrible.
Aim assist is not the solution. Movement is what needs to be looked at. Not in the way OP described though. The issue with mobility is much more complex than "Bullet jump bad".
There's 2 things that make mobility an issue: slide animations having no cooldown (mostly an issue when going for headshots) and walljumps resetting all maneuvers (every single time someone complains about bullet jumps they're actually talking about bullet jumping chaining off walls).
I agree, bouncing from wall to wall is the biggest issue. You can bullet jump once, but as soon as you touch the ground or a wall or any obstacle you can chain that, repeating ad infinitum. Some cooldown to slide and bullet jump would help, but wall bouncing needs to go.
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hace 21 minutos, Tyreaus dijo:
It isn't. But you said you aren't requesting to remove something that makes Warframe unique, and the mobility is one thing that makes Warframe unique. So that's quite bewildering, to say the least.
I sense I may not have been clear.
What I am saying is that making the game mode much more like another game creates comparisons. Negative comparisons impact opinions, and opinions impact overall results. That includes internal comparisons—"this isn't why I got into Warframe"—and external comparisons—"this sucks compared to Destiny". Neither of those opinions are positive, but would be much more common if Conclave were rebuilt closer to Crucible.
Of course, the changes suggested in this thread likely would create an uptick in player base, but so would comparatively minor improvements like a server browser or greater exposure to players. And so would the modes I suggested. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ways to do things.
I said removing in that theoretical scenario just to make an argument and prove a point, but in my original post I don't advocate for outright removal but restriction. I agree that certain toned down movements for some frames, but it doesn't make much sense (from a PvP, class based standpoint) that Rhino, for example, can be as nimble as Volt and perform the same actions despite being noticeably larger and bulkier while Volt is advertised as a speed frame.
Exposure, server browser, more and better rewards, loading tips, training mode, integration into normal gameplay, even adding more game modes, maps, mods, frames, weapons and rebalancing them ad nauseam, still won't fix the fundamental problem. Sure, it would bring a slight uptick of players who notice Conclave for the first time or decide to give it another chance just to see if things got fixed. They'll play a few matches, see it's still just a mess and the amount of players will go down again. You're trying to patch a sinking ship with ductape. Those fixes will still not solve the fundamental problem. The base, the foundation is flawed. The mechanics are simply wrong and no amount of small or large scale fixes will salvage that. It needs to be reworked entirely, even if it means toning down or outright removing some features, and the reason for that is stuff that works in PvE rarely works in PvP. You can't try to force PvE mechanics in a PvP game mode and expect it to function.
PvP and PvE need to be developed and rebalanced separately then brought together, but you can't have PvP as an offshoot of a PvE system with PvE mechanics. History taught us time and again that attempting to do so will fail no matter what. Note that you can do the oposite, and it works quite nicely. A PvP game with PvP systems can design a successful PvE mode. Of course, that's because PvP is infinitely more complex to design and balance than PvE. So, if your game is based around PvP primarily, you just need some minor adjustments to make it work as PvE.
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hace 1 minuto, Tyreaus dijo:
Except...
Those are things that make Warframe different. Especially from Destiny, if that's considered the closest thing.
And I think there's an important question to ask beneath this: if you make these sorts of changes and rebuild Conclave to be much more like some other shooter's PvP - let's say Destiny, for the sake of proximity - what reason would players have to play Warframe's version over Destiny's?
If your entire summary of Warframe is wall bouncing and bullet jump then we have a problem here.
I mean, there are a lot of similar class based PvP shooters. Asking what reason to play X over Y always boils down to personal preference. PvP here is basically dead in the water and abandoned since the Khora release. Allow me to rise an eyebrow if you suggest that turning PvP to a more mainstream appeal would make people flock to Destiny.
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hace 44 minutos, ByroSphere dijo:
But here are the things that you are not accounting for, not only are there no other known PvE games like Warframe that has a successful pvp, there is no other PvE game that plays like Warframe, period.
While the thing that you are requesting, is not just balance the game out in a way that is known to work for other games, but you are also requesting to remove the variable that makes Warframe different from any other game... All while not accounting other issues that the Conclave have, which is it's isolation from the rest of the game.... Which I tell you, is not an issue that is common in most other successful PvEs with PvP modes, when what you are requesting involves isolating it further by making the PvP play nothing like it's PvE mode.
Altough I agree that weapons and abilities can have some level of restrictions, the mobility is not something that should be hampred that drastically, because it is the main appeal with this game. Taking it away is essentially giving the Conclave a death sentence, epsecially when including the other issues it faces.
hace 1 hora, Tyreaus dijo:But this also goes the other way: turning to PvE and asking why it's successful. Indeed, I would say it's more pertinent to ask why the PvE modes are successful, because they are what players of Warframe are playing. Following the formula of another game may work from a mechanical standpoint, but it's important to realize some players play CS:GO and not DoTA, some play DoTA and not TF2. The playerbase doesn't necessarily translate, and the further away the mode lies, the less that playerbase will translate. Speaking nothing of DE's capability to pull it off, mind, nor speaking of the fact that the mode then starts to compete with class-based shooters (and the like) that get entire dev cycles...
Which is why I suggest those other modes instead. They'd need much more work by an experienced dev team, but they keep one large part of PvE in the power fantasy, and one of them works off the back of one of the better-thought-of game modes. And, being much more Warframe-like, they're decently unique that one couldn't just boot up Overwatch or TF2 and get a similar game.
Warframe is not unique. It's just another class based shooter. There's Destiny, the closest thing to it. Sure, every game has its own gimmicks, and that's fine. Warframe is all about quantity over quality, with tons of options to choose from and little regard for balance. I'm not requesting to remove something that makes Warframe different. I'm requesting to reduce the number of available things for a single game mode in order to make it remotely viable. Hell, i'm not even requesting the entire removal of the mobility system, just some limitations.
I have the opposite opinion, the weapon limitation I asked for it to reduce complexity, but that isn't the main problem I spot. The main problem is mobility. That is the single, most important issue with Warframe's PvP hands down. People go in for the first time, see everyone just jumping and zooming around at insane speeds, dodging like maniacs, they miss all their shots, get killed by a dude using a flamethrower and quit, never to be seen again. You simply can't keep something so unappealing to all but a minority and the numbers prove it.
Heck, if they removed bullet jumping and wall bouncing and tested that for a week, I'm willing to bet all my platinum PvP would gain popularity and quickly. Sure, the old guard would complain, no one likes to see something they enjoy changed, but "The needs of the many /Spock."
Now seriously, trying to shove a flawed system down people's throats - no matter how much training, tips, rewards and attempts at integration you try - simply won't work. When the foundations are crooked, you need to demolish your house and rebuild from the ground up.
Feedback: The reason why Conclave fails (and how to fix)
in Conclave
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In the meantime, a functional operator PvP could be implemented quite easily. With less stuff to dealt with in terms of abilities and weapons, it should be easier to balance. Of course, everything should be unlocked from the very beginning. About focus trees, that system can be implemented later on.
Another interesting idea would be a class based Grineer vs Corpus PvP mode. Playing as a grunt of either faction. Both have a counterpart in almost a 1:1 fashion when it comes to grunts and weapons, and there's a lot of customization there to be marketed.