Volkovyi
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Posts posted by Volkovyi
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Indeed, it is a abstract idea, I think I having problems putting the right words, I'm not trying to make it meta. I explained it in another thread like this: the tenno has a conscious mind, when put to dream, as we know the subconsious mind takes over, free of the ego and the weight of the "awake" life, this subconsious will develop a personality as it is projected into the warframe. Meaning that I, Pavelord the warframe's essence lies in the dreaming subconsicous, and take shape in the warframe. And not Pavelord the human player of DE's game.
Does it sound different? or feels the same?, maybe I'm not getting the meta concept right. I tried to line the idea with some of the concern players had, like the tenno saying things the player wouldn't, or the feeling they are not mature enough and "why am I talking to myself in the mission".
This lead me to the idea that now with the reveal the dream was split, and the consious and subconsious parts both emerge in the warframe, kinda like the tenno being both pilot and copilot. Well I sure hope the next reveal shed some light on things, thanks for reading.
What I mean by meta is the literary tool of self-referencing. Comparing the Tenno's waking mind and conscience to how the player experienced the reveal and also "waking up" realizing we are another identity, is referencing itself and the player. So that would in a way be meta, using the true definition that is.
However, saying that our conscience and sub conscience split into basically two identities would add even a deeper level of abstract psychology and theorizing around this situation. I am really not sure what even might be more likable as a possibility, or possible at this point.
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I still am confused though... All this time we were just empty shells that fought to stay alive when we were in no harm at all. And if the warframes are metal puppets, why was lotus in such despair when losing mirage as seen in the quest? And why a child???
With all due respect I am not against this reveal but I just can't get comfortable with the fact that we're just kids and those warframes we fought with were just tools... I honestly would rather have our identity remain a mystery than know that the warframes we know and fought with are nothing but weapons. I refuse to accept the fact we are children.
I do agree with you. I am hoping to an extent that we are promised some more information about the Warframes in the future, that perhaps we are not truly empty shells, and tools of war forever. In a way this does feel like our experiences up until this point have been compromised, dare I say cheapened, knowing and being called empty shells, puppets.
Nonetheless the child aspect of this does seem to be an odd choice, I am sure the story could have achieved the same effect and intensity if they were full grown adults, or even just not unmasked in the end. I wonder what mood DE is looking for by making the Tenno children.
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Well, I don't think anybody's saying that we should have seen it coming. Just that this was built into the lore from the beginning.
That may be true, they say that hindsight is always 20/20. Knowing what we know now, we can easily see the clues and what each bit of lore was hinting at. However it still stands that even if it was built into the lore form the beginning, it was not obvious, and obscure.
In reference to the larger discussion, it would be unfair to use this point as a reason to invalidate player's shock or disliking of the reveal. I mean to say I am just agreeing that no one was expected to see it coming.
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We still don't know at what point the Lotus discovered the secret of the tenno, the scene could had been at some point when she still didn't know, and even though the tenno are not inside the warframes, their mind is, being murdered is still a horrible experience to have.
As for the kids, I think the general guess is because they dream in cryogenic pods, we are gonna have to wait and see if they shed more light on that.
I believe I must add a counter point. In the Second Dream quest it is revealed Lotus hid the moon away in the void on purpose to hide the Tenno. With Alad V's shock that the moon still exists at all, we can assume that Lotus did this a very long time ago and knew all along.
I suppose we can also assume that we, the Tenno, worked so hard to keep our kind alive is because of a few possibilities; as the Tenno didn't know about the truth they obviously simply fought for survival thinking they are indeed the Warframe, and fought to save the others because they are their brethren of a small dying race. Each Warframe life was valuable. Like we said earlier in the thread if they truly believed they were the Warframe, their mind could actually conceive death and injury from battle even if their "real" body was never in harm's way.
Lotus could have been showing concern with Warframe/Tenno death in the past because she may have known this reason. Perhaps the Warframes are first very difficult to create if at all, as a dying race, and the foundry we have in-game is just a game mechanic? Perhaps she knew that dying in the Warframe meant the conscience died with it, or was traumatized and severed, and could injure the Tenno for real back in the reservoir. Perhaps the Warframes are alive to some extent. Or perhaps she was lying to keep up this ruse?
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Hi Volkovyi, I appreciate your sensible and hearthfelt account of your experience, it is more common that I tought it would, I think part of the community had been very vocal about wanting more lore and answers, because they felt the Warframe experience was very bland and mostly grinding, this probably had been resonating on DE for a while, and i think they push forward with the most ask question.
As for me I like it, I never invested myself in several personalities for each frame, the reveal presented to me as something logical, as a adherent of the mono tenno theory I always felt weird that the idle animations imposed certain traits on my character, I feel that the reveal even explains that.
I don't think U18 destroy the link and personalization with the character/s, but shift the place where it is located, it wasn't in the warframe, that is a suit but it isn't exactly with the tenno either, I believe the player is represented as the dream, the second dream, this shapeless, intangible thing. And just as we in RL can dream of becoming superman, teacher, friend a sister or brother and wake up and remain ourselves; so does the tenno dream of being different beings. Now that the dream is split, we both board the warframe.
This is to me what brings several nuances to the game and made me enjoy the work put into it. Anyway quoting DESteve, "maybe future expansion resonate more with you", keep being a awesome member of the community.
That is an interesting way to look at this outcome. It does however feel abstractly meta in a way, that the Second Dream is actually referring to us as the players and such. While very interesting, I am unsure how much I can accept such an abstract meta story-telling element, if that is indeed what was intended. As you have shown me it can be interpreted many ways.
The link and personlization you mention isn't necessarily destroyed, but shifting the location of an identity might also achieve the same effect as if it was destroyed. Yes there is an identity, but it isn't what one is invested in or wanted.
Nonetheless, I always await eagerly, but patiently, for whatever DE has prepared next in line for creation.
Thank you for commenting thoughtfully.
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Very well written I must say, and I will try my best to convey my meaning without sounding to harsh, but I can never seem to get some points across via text.
As a Veteran, (I've been playing since Open Beta first launched) I actually enjoyed The Second Dream thuoghly, but I understand that not everyone did. The main problem that I seem to keep seeing is that people have been playing for so long with little to no lore, they create their own. Not trying to pin the blame on the players or DE, it's just what Humans do, if there is something we don't know, we try and make our own theories up. That is the problem though, and where this backlash has come from.
People have made their own lore for this game, and DE just dropped a bombshell on their theories that they held for do long. That makes people mad, which is understandable. When a game developer makes a lore decision, normally the player has nearly no say, otherwise the lore that they have set up for now and later expansions would have to be changed based on the whims of the community, and destroy all plans of further storytelling. (I'm honestly trying not to sound nasty to anyone, but I can't seem to put this in any softer terms) I've seen the same thing happen with other games, where the developer says something very vague, that could mean anything, and dome players take and run with it, and make up their own version of what is going to happen, and when what they invisioned doesn't happen, they get disappointed.
I'm trying to stay neutral, and if there is ANY blame at all on this matter, I would say it is an equal share on DE for waiting for so long, and not giving more obvious clues to the playerbase to help shape their mindset to what they wanted, but also on the players, for making up their own story in a game that was, at some point, make it's own story the drvelopers wanted regardless of what the fanbase wanted.
Sorry guys, but remember we still have PLENTY more story to go through, I highly doubt DE will stop here, so there might be hope for your ideas to come through in a different way, regardless, if you wanna continue Roleplaying or something, just say it's an AU or something along those lines. The Warframe comunity is actually pretty big, and a very creative bunch, do use this story as a springboard for other ideas, but remember if you set your bar to high, nothing will ever reach it.
Just please keep it out of edgelord territory and don't draw freaking warframes killing children, that's just not cool.
I understand what you are saying, and to an extent what you say is true. Thank you for commenting with your own well written intentions.
My ultimate message in my letter is that I want to address the chosen identity given to us feels alienating and forced, not so much that our personal theories are made to be untrue. On the contrary I was fully aware what I might have created as personal lore is indeed completely untrue, I was prepared to be shocked, I never had any disillusions like so. It is simply about the player who is invested in playing a video game, and if a player can not become invested they will not play it.
I never mentioned anything about Warframes killing children though, that seems quite unnecessary.
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This. Exactly this. The Warframe had it's own will during that moment. Without contact with the Operator, this "metal puppet" should have had no capability to move, yet it did. It tore War in two, and if you look during the cinematic, there is blood. There is a GAPING FLESH WOUND from the War's blade being ripped through the Warframe's upper right chest and right shoulder.
There's a reason Lephantis says "Why do you destroy us? We are your flesh." The Theory I hold on to is that the Warframes are production models of Technocyte beings the Orokin created as a weapon against the Sentients. The Infested are an offshoot, failed experiments gone awry. Rhino Prime's Codex references a beast that suddenly stops before tearing two workers asunder, near the children of Zariman and their location. That's the original, primal Rhino. Sculpted, manufactured into what we see today. No longer are they purely driven by instinct, blood lust, or whatever. Using Transference, the Warframes were put to use against the Sentients, and the Tenno were controlled by the Orokin. Maybe the Warframe was going off of instinct, maybe it was remnants of the Operator's thoughts. Whatever happened, it proved that the Warframes are not merely metal puppets with the Operator, the Tenno as the puppeteer.
And it's understandable you're feeling alienated because of the reveal. You have taken on the role, the persona of the Operator. Many years, 3 in your case, you have been under the illusion that you were your warframe. All of a sudden, you aren't. You're just a kid. A teenager.
This is also something we have been aware of, we haven't completely missed these details. I believe one of the few lore details we were given as fact in the past is that Warframes are some derivative of the Technocyte virus, which is shared by the Infested. But there is also lore details of some kind of warriors coming from the Void from Excalibur Prime's codex entry. I wonder how this all ties in with one another. Or if there is anything that has to be updated to consider The Second Dream reveal? I suppose these details are something that will be addressed in the future.
Nonetheless, thank you for understanding.
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EDIT: I forgot to state I feel ya', but I don't feel the same about it. I'm just gonna be technical here and not get into the emotional factor. It's kind of supposed to be encouraging, but again from a technical standpoint.
K. I'm gonna throw some human physiology science into this laheystorm right hurr.
See, these kids woke up, with the Warframes as their avatar notwithstanding, with NO memory, just the voice of some broad with a big 'ead who goes by "Lotus" and a whole lot of angry, deformed folks with bulky armor and one jerkwad shoving an Orokin-enhanced, military-grade Corpus torture/mind-control device into their side.
Yet you know how to use guns and swords. Daggers, staffs, throwing knives, etc. And the stance mods? How the ebin do you explain those? How do they work? Like magnets?
Well, there's something called "muscle memory," and it's legit. There are animals with less-than-centralized nervous systems having a "hindbrain." Although the only known animal with a significant one is now extinct. Our muscle's nerve-clusters can still store quite a bit of data: reflexes and movement patterns. This is why and how "running on autopilot" works. Reflexes are minor data for us in comparison to things like specific memories and names. This is also why they're so quick and don't have to pass through the frontal lobe.
These bits of data are stored on the evolutionary front, and are not meant to be erased. They can get rusty, oh yes, but they are never purposefully erased by the body.
But I'm not talking about the Tenno. The Tenno themselves never actually handle the weapons, ergo, it's the Warframes who have the muscle memory - the Tenno are only tapping into it. Considering that the Warframes are biomechanical, it would be safe to assume they store many of these functions as hardcopies (genes maybe?) in case of nervous system failure (countless deaths and such lmao).
The reason I compare the Warframes to humans is that the t-cytes' communication side is obviously based on human neuro-mapping, considering how quickly the Infestation can take over any given facility. The Tenno are immune because voidshenanigans, and the Warframes by extension because of the Tenno's astral presence within them, and I think that's a reason they don't actually mind it is because it gets rid of the c̶͖͎̣͙on͉̮̯͕ ̗̯͇̜̫͍ͅs̷̩͈t͍̳̕a̧͇a̡̹͙͚n͏̤̫͕̦n҉ͅt̫̲͇ s͉̱̰̮͈͙ͅkc̢ ̣̠r̯̰̱e̹̞̞̗ͅa̙̮͖m͓͈͉̝̠ ̫̰͍I̞̹̭̞͚̠̺I̵̹̲̟N̦͚̮̜ͅg.
And of course there's Rhino's codex entry.
The Rhino is savage and predatory, but stops in front of the cells where the Orokin kept the kids. Also, this was before Transference.
OH OH OH. The "dream of what you want to be" line was before Transference. The one chick who was training them had them astral-project instead of doing everything in-person because it vented excess energy and lessened the chances of the Tenno blowing someone else or themselves up. She was killed by the court before the tech was even an idea.
Hopefully my suspicions are correct and the Warframes themselves will get their time in the sun, but with Lore instead of being cogs in a machine. Technically the Tenno are as well, and the Sentient are ill-pressed to consider them an enemy, as both were abused by the Orokin, and the Tenno are responsible for the destruction of the Orokin, full-stop, and did what the Sentients could not: catch them with their pants down. All the way down. Maybe it's jealousy? "Git Gud, lmao." -my Tenno, probably.
I would recommend everyone absolutely consider the Warframes and Tenno separate entities until further notice, i.e. when new lore involving them comes out. We still got U20 to get to, ya know ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).
I wanna see them fighting back-to-back with magic horsehocky and horsehockey guns. Turnin' em to stone and blowing them to Kingdom Come with my six-Forma supershotgun (or maybe some ripping and tearing). At the same time. Switching out like some Army Of Two nonsense, blasting "Fortunate Son," while wearing faux-Hawaiian t-shirts and aviators, and asking everyone they meet if they have their lawn gnomes.
PS: If you have any doubts about what I'm trying to get across please ask for elaboration first :U.
Those are interesting points to consider, that is about the muscle memory. Thank you for taking the time to add your thoughts. I assumed the Warframes were always some iteration of the Technocyte virus, considering how the Infested call to us of like flesh during assassination missions. Upon further consideration, it does appear that there are many more things to uncover between the Tenno, Orokin, Warframes, and respective origins. They do seem to all be separate individuals given the in-game hints and details between the lines.
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Yeah, no. I've been with the game for about two years now, and I know others who were here from the beginning. None of us have a problem with it.
What you're trying to do is pretend to have a more valid and valuable viewpoint than your opposition, and it's just making you sound whiny.
Good sir, the reason we have placed a lot of effort in doing our very best to explain our experience is for the sole purpose of simply providing another view point to consider. Just to consider, that we are all affected by this story development differently as a whole. We do not intend, and have never intended, to convince someone one way or another. I deny the accusation that I am "pretending" to have a more valuable viewpoint than my "opposition," of which there is none.
We are not fighting, there is no opposition, no one is out to win one way or another. I just want to discuss and explore, hopefully in good manners.
If there is a part of my writing where I am not showing good manners, or can be misinterpreted as something sinister, please point it out to me so I can better rephrase it.
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You should just switch to I then, or put a disclaimer, otherwise it will be very easy to confuse.
Perhaps you are right, I am just so used to writing that way in attempt to appear professional and fair. I will soon edit the letter to correct all the "we" to "I."
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Ever heard of a game called SOMA?
It kinda does the cruel reveal a few times. The games ends very abruptly and anti climactically. you achieve what you set out to do, but you're still screwed over in the end.
I have actually, the themes touched in SOMA are quite amazing and even incite a strange overarching feeling of an existential crisis. I quite enjoyed Soma. I suppose those same themes applied to another game where I played for years and many hours made the final effect hurt even more.
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Does this all boil down to "I hate children"? What, you've never played Mother before?
No I am afraid not, I wouldn't have written all of this only to state "I hate children."
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You do not speak on my behalf. Countless individuals absolutely loved The Second Dream, far more than those who dislike it.
When we said 'we' we meant just myself, but in a removed sense. I didn't mean to make it sound like it is all of us as a player-base. As I prefaced in the beginning of the letter I only mean to describe my own experience for the sake as one part of a bigger message. I do hope you understand.
We enjoyed the Second Dream as well, but that doesn't mean that an entire portion of players who disliked the final reveal must feel invalidated and discarded because they are allegedly in the minority.
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I never understand why people add the "objective" adjective when there is little, if at all, objective explanation and justification in the content, for one thing.
I mean to say I wish to best explain my experience and feelings as clearly as possible for clarity's sake. So an objective explanation of subjective themes. That is what I meant.
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Good Day Fellow Tenno,
I want to preface my letter that I wish to share my personal experience and interpretation of The Second Dream's story and final revelation in humble hopes that my one single voice can be taken into account in whole. I only wish to express myself, what I felt, and how this has affected me. All in hopes this will be seen as an offer of a different perspective only with the best of intentions.
I love Warframe as an artist and as a gamer. Warframe has been a great inspiration as a visual medium, and as a game in my developing artistic career. Its visuals and experiences within it have had a great impact on me, including the dedicated and devoted, humane developer team of DE that creates it. Being able to watch this game grow alongside DE, seeing them so invested and hard working these past three years is inspiring to their player base. Their respect and devotion has earned my love and dedication to their game, as I am sure it has done the same for the rest of the player-base. Quite simply I am proud of Warframe's development all these years, and proud to be their player.
For the inspiration Warframe has given me, I have even been honored enough to have served as a small inspiration for Warframe in return. In creating the basis for Zephyr, and designing the Riot Moa enemy unit, and for the countless amount of my artwork that is used and viewed by DE and the Warframe community ever since. I am truly honored, humbled, and very much happy. I ame thankful for all of it.
I feel this small introduction is necessary to share as a back story for what sort of player I am for a better understanding of my point of view on the subject at hand. That is, a long standing veteran player of great investment in Warframe, and how the change of The Second Dream as affected me.
That being...
The final reveal has left us feeling betrayed, alienated, and detached.
The Second Dream as a whole is magnificent, please don't take me wrong. The technical delivery of the quest's cinematics, story line, and characters, were incredible. Simply put it was astounding, and refreshing to see such in depth story development that has never been experienced before in Warframe in all my years of playing. I felt excited, racing to see what would happen, my expectations were high and indiscernible. That was a beautiful feeling that I could only express as a first-time high any story in any media feels like the first time it captivates you. The first time you might indulge in a movie, a book, or another video game, is unique and you can't quite ever replicate it the second time around you play that game, or reread that book.
Story
Now, before this as every other long time player, we all had questions and theories of what is a Tenno, what is a Warframe. Some of the older players even watched DE as they themselves toiled over how to answer these questions over time. In a way I always enjoyed the freedom Warframe offered its players to take in the story and setting as they like to a certain extent, to invest in it how they like, and I always thought that was a noble way to care for your player-base.
Given this, I was fully and entirely aware that our personal musings were not going to be true, and never have I ever pushed our personal views onto someone else. On the contrary I often encouraged others to enjoy the game as they want to. Given all of that, going into this quest, I was expecting something completely different. I was prepared to be surprised and to be shocked, but despite this one can never imagine what is the single possible outcome that would completely disappoint them.
Please let me explain how I experienced the key points in the cinematic.
First let me point out, I did not see the intro cinematic at all. There is a peculiar bug on our profile that has not been resolved for many months now. That being that quest-related transmissions, and now cinematics, do not appear within my Liset. I only learned later of the intro cinematic through the ‘replay’ option, or replaying the quest on a friend’s account to learn that there was entire banters I have missed between missions inside the liset. I only see what happens within the mission. So then unfortunately I have no candid response to the intro cinematic of Stalker meeting Hunhow and acquiring his new gear.
I played the rest of the quest just fine, later on seeing the Moon inside of the void, meeting the now healed Alad V helping us, the whispers in the void of past memories of Margulius and the other Orokin. It is simply an astounding experience. Hearing the whispers of memories lost, I simply stood in place in shock, carefully listening.
I then reached the Reservoir, here I was filled with complete awe and excitement. Watching my Warfame watch the Reservoir open up and one of the Tenno’s metal pods come forth. It was absolutely surprising seeing our Warfame “turn off” it seemed as this new humanoid figure that fell from the pod waking up. I was made breathless, wondering who was this person, what connection did they have with me, or were they me?
As the humanoid figure was waking up, there was a voice speaking to us, the player. It said, “Dream not of what you are, but of what you want to be.”
Right after that, the humanoid figure began crawling towards our Warfame. I must admit at this point, this was a beautiful and powerful scene. The message behind this scene, as I thought I was supposed to interpret it, was one of self-empowerment. That you can achieve anything you want, and be who you want to be, and regardless of what you choose you will be valued. I thought the humanoid figure, what we assumed was the Tenno, wanted to return to their body which was the Warframe. That we must save him from the compromised safety of the Reservoir (now under attack by Stalker and the Sentients) and find a way to reestablish the connection between Tenno and Warfame. The Tenno wanted to be the Warframe once more, to be powerful once more. The Tenno’s body seemed small and weak, he obviously could not walk as he was crawling, I assumed this was because of being centuries in some kind of cryo-sleep.
As I was leaving the Reservoir, carrying the Tenno person it, I felt such mixed and powerful emotions. Carrying them away while under attack of the Sentients was a great game mechanic, you actually felt vulnerable just like the Tenno surely is feeling outside of his Warframe. During this scene I was wondering, perhaps this story will end up something similar to the movie Avatar. At he end of Avatar, Jake Sully the main character was a crippled Human, who adopted a new life as a Na’vi on the planet of Pandora as a powerful warrior and saved the planet from his own kind’s exploitation. The movie also used a type of Somatic device to link a conscience between a Human and their Na’vi body. After the climactic battle his real human body was wounded and on the verge of death, at the very last moment of the movie through what seemed like pure determination he was able to reawaken in his Na’vi body after his Human body died. We are left with a satisfying ending to his character, that he achieved to be who he wanted to, and needed to be.
That is what the literary elements of the story up until this point felt like they were leading to, that we would find a way to either return to the dream state and return to our Warframe under safer conditions, or even transfer the Tenno’s conscience straight into the Warframe and achieve a sort of complete synchronization. This way as players we would still learn of what the Tenno were, but still hold onto a small bit of mystery to tantalize the audience, all the while learning of the background lore all around us as the main character. All of that could have stayed the same.
Then I returned to our liset still holding the Tenno person, with no Transmissions telling us what to do, I just assumed I should go to the new room in the back of the liset. I was confused, shocked, but very interested, completely taken in by the story. As I approached the somatic room only then did I receive Transmissions to inform us about the Somatic Device, and that the Stalker somehow infiltrated our ship. What a plot twist! I actually assumed this Somatic device must be the way I will achieve complete synchronization with our Warframe, to transfer the conscience, or even just put the Tenno back to sleep where they will be safe guarded by their own Warframe.
The Stalker bested us it seemed, separating the Tenno and its Warframe, in the background Hunhow spoke to the Stalker about how we are separated and different, how the Warframe is empty. This was where I first began to feel conflicted, I was still interested but…experiencing mixed emotions. Would I like where this is going? As the Warframe lay limp, and the Tenno laying back in fear and completely vulnerable, Hunhow spoke to the Stalker. The Warframe has no sense of self, no death, just an empty metal puppet.
All this time, for almost three years of playing, I was that Warframe. All our time invested in playing the game was through the Warframe laying on the floor, limp. As far as I was concerned, that was me. It felt like the game was directly calling the player an empty puppet, with no sense of self. I felt more…hurt than anything profound.
Towards the end when the Stalker is banished from the liset, and Lotus returns the Tenno person to the new Somatic Device, I was cautiously optimistic. Until I came face to face with a sudden character creation screen.
I. was. absolutely. floored.
It was a child, and we were expected to customize it? All our expectations, our high emotions, simply stopped in true utter shock. Just simply confused.
I finished the character creator, and suddenly I was having a true dialogue in game with Lotus herself! This was where all our investment and sense of identity as a player was just shattered. Lotus told us directly, “this is who you really are.” It sounded like the Tenno, all Tenno, were children that went through an accident in the Void on board the Zariman ship. The more I listened to Lotus speak, the more I questioned, the more I alienated, our entire high that lead us through the mission suddenly just dissipated.
At the end of the mission, the quest complete, standing in the back room looking at this new member of my Liset, I felt great confused and mixed emotions. I loved the quest, the story, the lore, everything leading up to this point was indescribably amazing. But then at the very very end I felt repulsed by this single outcome. I didn’t want, and still do not, want to identify with a child.
The entire message given previously in the quest seems to have contradicted itself, the message of self-empowerment I talked about above. I are given absolutely no choice in the matter, the player has absolutely no input. I am this child, Lotus is our mother, and our Warframes are completely empty. That has left me with the same empty feeling, as if everything I have ever worked for in the game did not matter. Why did Lotus worry in the past of our Warframes dying in combat, why worry of Alad V’s Zanuka project tearing them apart if in reality they have no sense of self, they are empty, they were never alive? Am I to assume that Lotus was acting all this time, pretending our Warframes mattered knowing full well the real Tenno are hidden away on the Moon, and we can just build more Warframes? Did my Warframe ever matter?
What may be better as an outcome? Perhaps it may be as simple as not removing the child’s mask, putting it back to sleep in the Somatic device. Then hold the same conversation with Lotus with the Warframe instead. This way, the entire story can stay exactly the same, but the sudden blow of forcing your player to accept a new identity is not harsh, they get to continue to play the game as they always have. Perhaps even have Lotus give you the choice if you want to wake them up again or return to your Warframe?
Perhaps this may seem minuscule, but imagine now I can not take part in the Focus system because of this. The Focus system was a long awaited mechanic of Warframe to reward the players beyond level 30. However, I must face this child every time I wish to edit my Focus, even inside gameplay I can not USE the Focus system without having the child appear. How come the child must use the Focus system, and not the Warframe? I just completed a quest where the entire purpose was to uncover a great secret, and save the frail Tenno bodies from harm. Why now suddenly risk bringing out the child in the middle of battle for everyone to see? Including players who have not ever played The Second Dream to see it, as sort of an in-game spoiler via multiplayer?
I will never regain the peace of mind I had before seeing the ending.
Exposition
With this revelation at the end of The Second Dream's, I feel the exposition of Warframe's lore has become quite literal, only in this area of the story. Being small children in a sleeping reservoir on the moon we Tenno are literally “children of the sky,” Lotus literally became a mother... Up until this point all characters spoke in secrets, riddles and metaphors however lo and behold these key points turned out to be simply so literal. Having such mysteries and bits of baiting lore dangled in front of me for so long, I expected at least some symbolic outcomes where I was given an answer but nothing direct.
Learning that we are children, or what visually appears to be children, and to be called 'children' by Lotus, the entire professional and neutral relationship the player had with Lotus up until this point as a simple navigator and guide was shattered. I felt as if I have to accept her as a mother, that it is forced onto us. I was quite happy having her as a neutral and factual guide, always present but never interfering. Now this feels quite awkward...
I feel all this adds an undesired meta factor to the story: the Tenno children are controlling the Warframes just as I am a player controlling the Warframes in a video game. I felt this revelation was one of the variables that has cheapened our experience.
I are fully aware I am playing a video game, when we watch movies we know its a movie, same for shows, books, etc. The beauty of story-telling, in any medium, is the immersion and experience this offers to its viewer. For in the end most are largely produced for the sake of entertainment. Often in media when some sort of a meta is added to the exposition, it risks a great deal alienating and cheapening the consumer. You might ask, if it is just entertainment and we know none of it is real, then why does it matter if our experience and immersion in such things is compromised? Well of course it is not a necessity to create entertainment, we don't need such media to survive. We really only physically need food and shelter. Surely you can see but a huge portion of life's beauties is the enrichment of our lives as the celebration of human creativity and creation. Both in making it, and consuming it.
For example, imagine watching and being invested in a movie's Hero for the duration of the film and its action. Only to be revealed at the end that the movie itself was the making of a movie and that none of the trials and dangers the movie's Hero faced were real. The Hero was simply on a set, like it was a reality show in the film. The viewers of that movie would feel they were robbed of the experience, of a satisfying climax. They spent the entire film in anticipation and interest of the action, only to be revealed it didn't matter. Making a movie just to “trick” its audience that it wasn't real, you would question what is the point of creating such a film. Of course, it would be interesting and out of the ordinary, but consider that the novelty of this hypothetical movie is in its trick. Once you know the trick, there really is no reason to be invested in it again, to rewatch it. You already know the outcome, and that canonically it isn't real, so you won't ever feel the same way you did when you first watched this film.
Please keep in mind that self referencing elements, known as the “Meta,” is another literary element used in storytelling of all mediums today. Depending on the context, and how it is used, like any other tool of creation, can lend to good things and bad and anything in-between. What I wish to indicate is that I felt this was used in an undesired effect in The Second Dream.
Conclusion
In the end, I fear the cruel irony of this outcome is that maybe this might only greatly affect a few older players, veterans, or any player with some sort of investment in Warframe. On the other hand, someone who is a recent player, or the niche audience who is fond of the child element in fantasy worlds, would be considerably less affected by this revelation. Or perhaps I am the only one that feels this way.
I trust DE in their technical know-how, their passion for their art, and I feel they knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted exactly this, I can respect that this literary design meant something to them. I ask genuinely what it was they wanted to portray, or message to their players, by giving them this child identity?
Warframe has given the player choice in almost every aspect in the game. From the very moment you turn on the game to play, you can choose your starting Warframe. You can personalize your Warframes, there are colors, skins, patterns cosmetics, helmets, armors, for you and your Kubrow. Your sentinels, your weapons, your ship. You can choose which weapons to use, how to use them, which mods to equip, using one weapon or all three. You can choose where to go on the Solar Map, fight which faction of enemies you prefer on the tileset you prefer. You can choose to go on the planet, or use your Archwing in space flight, and all the same customization applies to your Archwings as well. You can choose if you prefer the PvE side of Warframe, or play PvP. Choose which Syndicate you wish to join, and choose your rewards.
Yes these may be all cosmetic or superficial choices, they might ultimately mean nothing to the story; but I want to point out that the very base of allowing so much choice, superficial or not, is enough to encourage your players to become invested in your video game as a developer. You have given the basis for your players to potentially invest in an identity.
Regardless of my personal alienation of this child identity given to us, it will not keep us for continuing to play Warframe and be part of the community. Negative or positive reactions, I am all the same excited for future developments and where it will take us. Thank you DE all the same.
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I can't wait to see!
I use the same alias on both platforms, Twitch is Volkovyi and my IGN is Volkovyi.
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I agree completely.
It feels alienating to be told directly as a player that you are this child. Lotus says so, and that we were tricked into thinking we are something inside the Warframe.
Considering that The Second Dream quest can only be completed after the Natah quest, and to do the Natah quest a player has to find their own way to Uranus to scan Oculists; these prerequisites make so that almost all of the players will have to invest some time in the game before being told completely otherwise. Perhaps even they might feel tricked.
Between the target audience for the video game Warframe, and our given identity there is a major disconnect. Very few players could identify as a child. This wouldn't be so bad of an effect if it was not so force ie. being told directly who we are.
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I agree, it feels like every update they get bigger and bigger.
I would like it if there was a slider to control their size, so players can make it how they need it.
Personally, for example, I have heard everything Lotus has to say, in every mission type. Unless it is vital to the story, a quest, or something out of the oridinary, I would like to not only reduce the size of Lotus's informatory transmissions but remove them entirely. Same for Ordis. Ordis's transmissions inside the liset are so common and he is so large he is actually interrupting me from doing tasks around my ship.
Give the player these controls in Audio, so we can each make it how we desire it.
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I loved the mission, the cinematics, it was beautiful up until the very moment you see the child and Lotus tells you "this is who you really are."
As the comments said above, this alienated Warframe's player base. Not many people identify with a child, especially if after 3 years of playing and being invested in the Warframes you are just ripped from your identity.
Hindsight is always 20/20; you may argue that the vague lore in the codex entry was a pointer to the truth that we are the Zariman children and we are 'not allowed to be angry', but please consider realistically how that information is isnt obvious. Its in the codex, under several tabs, on just a few Warframes on the list but not all. Most of us know of them because we were told they were added in hotfixes, or from word of mouth. Secondly the lore there is purposely mysterious, yes it talked of some accident and children but how clearly would you foresee we were those children?
Also be very aware of the differences between a world's story inside Warframe, and what that artform represents as a media in our world. Yes inside Warframe these Tenno might have the bodies of children, but mature and scarred minds from battle. But as a media, as players playing a video game, these are represented as children and we are being asked to identify with a child.
People have a right to feel surprised, angry, detached, even alienated. This was a daring new revelation in Warframe that has effectively split th community. This has indeed changed the mood of Warframe as a media, like some young adult teenager-oriented genre. Like an Anime the others have commented. I feel my experiences of three years has been cheapened and trvialized.
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Well said and points are well addressed. I agree with the above statements.
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I can't +1 this enough. I'd LOVE for this to happen or for this to become a Deluxe Skin. Though I do think his shin-guards look a little too big in V2. It puts his legs out of proportion.
The Frost rework was okay, it felt like it fixed some things of his abilities that felt outdated, but it didn't synergize his abilities like the Excalibur and Saryn reworks did. I still think Frost needs another revisit ability-wise. I agree he still feels -and is widely used- as a "globe bot".
I think the Tennogen stuff is too expensive in its current state... but if this ever makes it in-game, I might have to make an exception.
Well said, it does feel like Frost's "rework" is not a rework in the same sense like Excalibur and Saryn's. In fact it is more like a bigger just "retouch" and some buffing. As a fellow Frost player since u7, I must say I feel my role as a Globe-bot has changed very little. I would like to see him gain some more synergy to play as a tanky Battle-mage as his looks suggest.
What would you do if you could rework his abilities?
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Edit - Nov. 27 2015
Added a link under 'Serious Art' to our thread of Quality of Life enhancements, there are a few artist's renderings and mockups for Dojo design and HUD design that deserves to be listed here.
Thank you! UvU
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I agree with the OP argument, basically there is a lack of animation and status hierarchy interaction between the players and enemies. What I mean by that is that these slam attacks that cause shockwaves take priority over any other input, can't be interrupted, and their behavoir is sporadic.
Just because there are workarounds and tricks to overcome or suppress the problem, doesn't mean the problem is solved.
I've been in all of those situations, it is incredibly disappointing that you as a player use tools or abilities that promise you success for your creative use of weaponry only to see those certain enemies ignore that.
Why do I try so hard to use the full spectrum of Parkour 2.0 with added movement mods actively, when Scorpions or Ancients pluck me out of the air without a care? Why do I try to play evasive, using Impact or Blast procs, Teleportation and finishers when the Gunners and Bombards just ignore that?
When my genuine efforts go unrewarded time and time again, when I feel cheated, as a player I am more tempted to turn to Meta-gameplay and cheat back. In the end the entire experience is cheapened.
If you want to keep a mechanic then make it work properly.
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I would seriously prefer DE added a way to use modding to add to visual effects for the hud.
Not saying your ideas are bad, but for example, shoving a red triangle on a missile won't help me. I can't see red well and Archwing red triangles might as well not be there.
Everyone is different in how they see visuals and your way will be different from my way and someone else way. Unless we had a construction tool, you will only please some people.
I currently use a program called Custom Desktop Logo to overlay a bright green aiming reticle on top of my screen when playing Archwing so I can see where my gun is pointing, as the current white one is impossible to see for me.
I see, that is very true what you say sir and I only mean to construct ideas that are in the best interest of its players. While individual mods might be difficult to implement and control over a multiplayer game such as Warframe, perhaps there could be an expansion to the HUD options menu that allows for players to customize which HUD elements are turned on, off, and even change their colors for those who need or desire it?
[Spoiler] The Second Dream Open Letter, Review Of Subjective Experience: A Player Alienated
in Missions & Levels
Posted
It does feel incongruent to not only force the Zariman Tenno child as the "main character" but also how it seems that the Zariman children were an accident. By all accounts of the entire lore of Warframe, the Tenno in some form or another seemingly had an entire culture. Enough of a culture and race to have Tenno craftsman, artisans, the schools of fighting styles in the focus system, to serve in a war as warriors, this seems like a lot more than can be feasibly created with what sounds like a handful of children who 'accidentally' gained powers.
Unless there are actually adults who used Transference on Warframes as a tool of war, and they developed the Tenno culture over time, in which case how come we can not have them as our avatars?
Nonetheless, my investment in the game after almost three years and over a thousand hours lies with my warframe, not a child. I do hope more will be expanded upon the Warframes in the future, however they may have planned it. It would be an amazing turn of events to have a "Warframe uprising."