Jokubas
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Posts posted by Jokubas
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This is a great post. You seem to have a good head for taking a balanced approach to design that takes into account multiple perspectives rather than leaping for an extreme.
I've been saying that for stealth to be viable, it needs to be more robust and consistent, and this does that without significantly altering the game.
I like most of it, but I don't like this one. An alarm that can't be set off immediately isn't worth installing. The flashing light thing just doesn't make any sense. Having a flashing light after the alarm has been set off makes sense. But during... not so much.
For gameplay purposes it's simply too harsh right now for any serious stealth mechanics. Because of that, I, at least, don't even need it justified, but the home alarm system or the Lotus warning are good points.
Many systems in Warframe aren't clearly documented....and I do believe there is much more complexity and logic in the spawn system than the devs let on.
It's possible that in certain conditions (the alarm/spawn) does work like that. However, if we don't understand something, it's effectively not in the game.
Yeah, and that's the reason I resist any stealth incentives until stealth itself is fixed. Stealth already involves a number of unknown variables by its very nature. It becomes pretty much impossible when you add on extra variables that you have no chance of compensating for because you have no idea how they work or whether they're even there.
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There are some mission types getting a lot of feedback attention right now, but I'm also seeing an attitude that, in general, missions aren't different/engaging enough, with some min-maxed exceptions. I'm going to give some ideas on how to improve missions as a whole, before doing a brief run-down of some of the major issues with the different gamemodes.
Overall
I think map sizes need to be shrunk across the board. For everything but Exterminate and Defense, the latter of which already has a small map, the best way to play is to usually just rush to the objective and then rush to extraction. What is the point of all the rooms in between? One explanation might be to make the places feel more like full complexes, but with the limited variety in each tileset, that actually ends up making it seem more fake.
Imagine missions with smaller maps that were allowed to focus on their differences more, while also having fewer, more unique elements of the tileset at a time. There might be a concern about it making things like Assassination easier to farm, but this could also open up the possibility to make missions the same length or longer, but with that focus on the unique objective rather than the fodder between point A and point B.
This would also help set up for better stealth gameplay in the future. Stealth itself needs to be more consistent before it can be a serious option, but it would be ridiculous to ask someone to stay hidden for the massive maps that exist for some missions (especially considering the rewards of most missions).
Assassination
Aside from the first time I fought Jackal, I've never seen the boss mechanics be relevant. Everyone's too strong. Simply having them scale might not be good for new players, and I don't think it's absolutely necessary for them to be hard for higher level players, but I hope some compromise can be found.
Capture
There just doesn't seem to be enough to it. Perhaps some more variety, like some targets being essentially mini-bosses on their own, some being VIPs with tough bodyguards (that lock the target in a room or something while you fight, so you don't just ignore the bodyguards to catch the target), etc. combined with my suggestions for all missions.
Deception
I guess this is to be phased out? I personally enjoy simple missions like this, but it does seem kinda silly without a more robust stealth system.
Excavation
Good overall, but ties into some of my suggestions for all mission types again. The maps seem to be way too big. That exacerbates how annoying it is that you can't fill up the Scanner when it's in standby. Also, I feel the Excavators need to scale along with the enemies. It drains variety out of the game when you need a defensive Warframe after a certain point, thanks to how fast enemies can start killing the Excavators (variety means that being good enough in damage to keep the enemies away should be as viable as turtling up, but when all it takes is a couple of shots, it's not really viable).
Exterminate
Pretty much the only problem I have with Exterminate is that, at least in earlier levels, the enemies are too spread out. I understand this is for difficulty, but it ties in with my suggestions for all missions. Just because you want them spread out doesn't mean there has to be so many empty rooms in between the smaller groups of enemies.
Interception
It's really jarring to me that the enemies and players have different methods of capturing nodes.
Mobile Defense
I feel this mission type has too much variety, or, rather, randomness, at least when it's an Alert. Sometimes you come in, there are two terminals, one's thirty seconds, the other's a minute and a half, other times there are four, and all four are four minutes. That's really frustrating when it's an Alert. Even when it's not, though, more than two terminals are really annoying on maps that seem to only have two terminals, so you just go from one set of rooms to their duplicates elsewhere in the facility.
Rescue
Rescue is just broken. I'm baffled at how many people are impatient for Rescue 2.0 to replace the rest of the nodes. Rescue 2.0 makes the problems with Rescue worse, not better.
Here's a list of some reasons why escort missions tend to be so reviled:
-The escort either runs ahead, or has a hard time keeping up.
-The escort has no sense of self preservation and accidentally puts themselves in harm's way.
-The escort is more aggressive than their combat capabilities support.
-The escort is extremely fragile.
-The conditions/penalties for failure are harsh relative to the rest of the game.
All of these things lead to fighting the game, not the enemies, which is artificial difficulty, not challenge.
Warframe arguably has all of the listed problems (it has both elements of the first depending on the situation, only sometimes teleporting to fix it, and it has the third if you hand them a weapon, which seems counter-intuitive, even if it's believable), and Rescue 2.0 only makes the last one worse. The only saving grace at the moment is that we're so ridiculously powerful that most of them don't usually matter, but that's not a feature of the gamemode itself (and arguably something that needs tweaking on its own). I won't accept a Rescue 2.0 until the AI is smarter and more consistent, or I can just sling them over my shoulder and run them to extraction personally.
Sabotage
This one's main problem for me is my problem with all missions.
Spy
I like this mission type. Some day I'd like to see it involve more stealth, but like all stealth ideas, stealth itself needs to be more robust/consistent first.
Survival
The apparent popularity of this gamemode baffles me. Unless it's just that it being good for rewards is causing people to defend it as a whole. This is one of my least favorite gameplay types because I find it extremely stressful. Between the massive reliance on life support drops and the ill-defined end, it's just not fun. What I mean by the latter is that extraction is something that has to be agreed upon between the group and then traveled to manually (and hope everyone agrees, otherwise someone is missing out), unlike Defense where everyone has the freedom to leave at the intervals. Survival definitely needs more consistency with the life support mechanic, but I'd also like to see a more structure extraction.
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IMO, Lotus life support should only be a deterrent to camping in an impenetrable pigeon hole, and mob drops are to incentivize the killing of mobs so you don't just run around for 20 minutes.
Life support shouldn't be the main cause of your failure.
Seriously. I think the enemies getting harder is supposed to be the main challenge, like Defense. Of course, with min-maxed players and high end content, that might lead to another thing that has to get tweaked, but...
I just failed my first attempt at one of the Back to School Survival Alerts, and there was nothing we could do. We hit each capsule the second they appeared (we were never above 70% past the beginning), and there were only a handful of personal life support drops the entire time. There were barely even any enemies. There was nothing we could do about it.
I'm honestly not sure what the best solution is. Having the drain change based on the amount of enemies sounds good in theory (encourages you to fight, while not punishing you if the spawn rate dwindles for whatever reason), though it may just end up as another bandage.
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This is just going to be anecdotal evidence, but maybe it will help someone.
When I first started playing sometime prior to U14, I remember seeing the Oberon drops all the time. A couple of days ago, I saw one and realized I hadn't seen them in a very long time.
It might be worth looking into.
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Yeah, at the very least, Helios needs revamping of its current role.
Here's a few really common, annoying situations:
1) Helios starts scanning an enemy that gets close to you... and then kills it before it can finish scanning (I get that sometimes taking the guy down would be more important, but it seems really silly that Helios will kill steal itself).
2) Helios starts to scan one of many incomplete entries in the room, but is interrupted for some reason... then proceeds to do nothing for five or more seconds before realizing that it can scan any one of them again.
3) Helios only starts to scan something that's been in range for awhile just as you've committed to an action, that will kill it, that you can't take back.
Also, in general, I hate how slowly it scans. I get that it's probably supposed to be a trade-off for Helios being able to track perfectly (barring range and line-of-sight of course), but the slow speed makes the perfect tracking irrelevant in far too many situations. Enemies are pretty decent at finding cover in this game, which can completely baffle Helios, and in most situations, enemies die way too fast for Helios to complete a scan unless you're solo or intentionally fighting away from your group.
Any of these things might be fair trade-offs if the rest of the Sentinels were balanced this way, but in the current state, it just makes Helios awkward at a job that comes at the cost of far more useful things.
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I don't think they have to commit to being fast-paced to address everything you said (meaning, I'd love to see harder/stealthier content in the future after some stealth revamps, but I'd still want these to be addressed).
- I understand reloading is supposed to be tactical, but what interrupts it and what doesn't is extremely unintuitive to me. Why does bumping the open button on a closet completely reset it, but Volt can use his number one freely? Really simple actions should not interrupt reloading, and if something would, I honestly think I might prefer that you simply can't do it while reloading. It's not about balance, it's about feel, and right now it feels like a light breeze or your Warframe coughing would cause your empty magazine to teleport back into your gun, resetting your progress in a way that doesn't even make sense.
- There's actually a reason for this? I always just thought it was a weird bug where sometimes the game would just lock down your interactions until the weapon had been completely re-sheathed. This really has to go. It's your Warframe choosing to make themselves vulnerable completely beyond your control, and not even logically.
- Getting knocked down is supposed to be something you're supposed to avoid, I get that, but with how agile the Warframes are, it feels jarring that they can't just flip right back up.
- This is a huge pet peeve of mine in this game. I love parkour, I love that it's in this game, but I hate how easily your flow is broken by the parkour. I hate when I'm sprinting down a hall, or running along a wall, go to hop over some tiny barricade, and accidentally brush a corner, causing my Warframe to stop, magnetize to the corner, hesitate for a second, then slowly pull himself over. I think there's another common instance that drives me nuts that I can't remember at the moment, but yes, in general, I at least want to see Warframes vault faster. The whole point of parkour is that vaulting over an obstacle is supposed to be faster than going around it, and so often in this game it's the complete opposite.
- If you're right about rolling/dodging, then I agree. And I word it that way specifically because I can't really tell if it's useful at all. It doesn't really seem to be.
- In general I'd like to see the basic movement revamped. In general, I don't really know what the point of Stamina is for movement. It seems more of a nuisance, at worst, than any kind of balancing mechanic. Sprinting should just be the fastest default movement, and maybe even vault over many obstacles by default (in a way that does not slow you down).
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I don't like it because it makes it hard to compare the relationship between my movement and distances, at a glance, to what they normally are, so I don't feel like I gained as much speed as I really did.
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I was grinding a Nightmare mission for Shred all night the other night (Eurasia, if that's relevant), and I had a very reproducible version of this.
After any mission in which I was not the host, not only would Alerts vanish (I had done the Back to School Alerts, so I can't comment on their resistance to vanishing), but Nightmare missions would not exist for me on any planet (invasions and such seemed to be fine). Even selecting missions I knew were Nightmare missions would not give me the option. Simply logging back out and logging back in fixed both.
Edit: Today I can say that the Back to School Alerts stay around while normal Alerts and Nightmare missions disappear for me.
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I agree with pretty much everything.
The one thing I'd like to add, is hoping for some kind of "Edit Mode" for the Dojo. It would give you some kind of top down view of the place, and allow you to move rooms and decorations around freely before "committing" the changes and the Dojo reloading. Of course, this could have some time/costs associated with it, but the current way of building frankly drives me nuts, and with the refunding, it's clear that Digitial Extremes has no problem with you moving stuff around, it's just extremely awkward at the moment. I'd like my Dojo to one day look like an actual place, and not a chaotic series of hallways designed for maximum Forma efficiency (speaking of, the Forma costs need to be tweaked; I joined a random clan at the beginning to get Volt and stuff because it's just insane when you're new and/or unlucky, yet trivial to circumvent with established players).
I guess, connected to that, I also think Decorations should be able to be moved freely in that "Edit Mode" or out. It's really annoying to try to get one lined up just right, place it, realize that it ended up being way off at an angle you couldn't see, and then you have to delete it completely and replace it, even when it's not built yet (unless I'm missing something, in which case, a better explanation needs to at least be added).
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I just want to say, in theory it's interesting, but in practice I hate the Conclave Rating limitation. It just feels like a hasty bandage to the balance issues in high end gameplay. It's not cool to tell someone that they suddenly can't use all their cool toys after you've asked them to spend hours and hours grinding for.
It's not necessarily a bad idea, encouraging new tactics can be great, but I honestly don't think this system really works that well. Conclave Rating isn't even something I really knew about until I was forced to with this, and even then I wasn't sure what affected it, so I just took equipment off until it was low enough (I did some research while writing this post and was surprised at what does and doesn't affect it). It's just really awkward to mess with your Conclave Rating (especially since you can only downrank with duplicates). It's the kind of thing that a newer/casual player is going to end up completely gimping themselves with (like I ended up doing with my apparently-newly-nerfed, no ammo capacity weapon), and the kinda hardcore player that trivializes content will min-max their way out of pretty easily, defeating the purpose of a mode with limitations.
I'd rather Tactical Alerts focus on what's new about them.
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I'm glad Rescue 2.0 isn't everywhere yet. Until stealth is more reliable and the hostage has better AI, Rescue 2.0 has you fighting the game more than the enemies. I just don't see how they did an update to the escort mission without solving any of the reasons why people tend to hate escort missions (suicidal AI, unreliable pathing, harsh failure conditions, etc).
Until there's better stealth, the Warden condition can be extremely harsh and frankly unfair (I've had it trigger in baffling situations), especially coupled with the unprecedented defense the prisons tend to have (making them significantly harder than equivalent level missions if you're forced out of the unreliable stealth). The hostage AI is frustrating. sometimes they'll teleport way ahead to the guy in the safest position, sometimes they'll get stuck and just start taking hits. I don't know if it's intentional, it does kinda make sense, but it's not intuitive as a mechanic that giving the hostage a weapon makes them makes them extremely vulnerable. The teleporting/pathing needs to be smarter, and the hostage should only use a weapon to defend themselves, not to hunker down and try to fight off the endlessly spawning enemies. Also, I'd love an additional option to just sling the hostage over your shoulder (switching you to your secondary and limiting some parkour), so you can circumvent those issues altogether.
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There might actually be a wider issue here that they should look into regardless of any possible leak.
Awhile back, before Update 14, I went into my clan Dojo for the first time. I was looking for the Tenno Research Lab, but the place was big so I wandered for awhile. There were a couple of guys following me around and it made me kinda nervous, but I only knew one guy in the clan so it wasn't too weird. I started feeling like I had been lied to because I was told to come into the Dojo to build something they said they had finished researching, but despite the size of this Dojo, almost nothing was finished. Then I realized I was in the wrong chat tab, and the two guys who had been following me had been questioning and freaking out about me the whole time. Apparently I had somehow ended up in someone else's Dojo. I apologized and promptly left.
On a similar note, there was a time me and one other decided to stay for another round of defense, but the host left. After the migration was finished, we were in the same place... but it was suddenly Interception, but with no Interception UI. Luckily, it must have been keeping track anyway, and after we defended the nodes for awhile, it gave us the normal prompts, and we decided that we'd leave this time.
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As long as certain other things remain the way they are, I can't really say I want this stopped.
I remember when I started, I was having energy problems left and right. I didn't really see the point in Warframe abilities with how inconsistent getting energy can be. Then I saw an Energy Siphon Alert. And I was unable to make it to it in time. I didn't see Energy Siphon again for a very long time (by which point I had completed most, if not all, missions in the game).
Similarly, Forma are extremely rare and needed for too many things. If those pop up, if you're playing at that time, I feel you kinda deserve to have a chance at it, cause otherwise the game's going to be a lot less fun.
None of it's necessary to play, of course, but they heavily contribute to fun, which is what's most important.
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People all say that Excalibur is "Press 2 to win!" but the fact remains that we need to try and deviate from this as much as possible.
Any frame as to which only one power is worth using needs to be rebalanced.
Yeah, Excalibur may be powerful, but if he's barely using his skill set, and what he does use is tangential to his very popular theme, then he needs tweaking, whether you call that buffing or nerfing or anything else.
If high end stuff cannot be done without his blind, then the high end stuff is what's broken. I know that's talking about much wider changes that will take a lot longer to test and implement, but I think it's necessary to mention.
In my opinion, Excalibur is not who he's intended to be, and I want to see that fixed. Having his abilities take on aspects of his melee weapon would be great (both visually and mechanically). I also agree that Radial Javelin needs Punch Through, it just makes sense, and Slash Dash definitely needs to be the slash-through-and-then-sheathe-your-weapon attack it's supposed to be, instead of the kinda weird utility thing it ends up being later on. Also, Super Jump needs... something. Anything. It's really underwhelming and doesn't do much that you can't do normally.
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I don't think they're overpowered per se, but the Jetpack guys do drive me nuts. Their movements are erratic, and, from one encounter to the next, they can switch from easy fodder to confusing and frustrating. I've had some just stand there, while others start zipping around in a physically impossible way (that doesn't look intentional with the way the animations play out) that makes it easy to lose track of them, and then they can stunlock you with the missiles. If you're on par with them, their missiles already hurt. They don't need to keep you down until the next volley is on top of you (I think that was the source of one of my first failed missions in this game).
I don't mean to ask for a nerf, I just think it's one of those cases where part of an enemy's power comes not from intentional challenge, but from an unintentional inconsistency.
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WE ARE GETTING A RAILGUN WITH ARCHWINGS!!!!!
Really? Cool! I still want one for normal play, but...
(Spoilers from the last episode of season two of A Certain Scientific Railgun if that matters to anyone)
(P.S. For those who know nothing about it, yes, there is justification for that scene, but you do have to read between the lines for some of it. ;P )
Seriously though, I've liked railguns since I first used one in an Unreal mod a million years ago, so I'm happy to see a real one coming to Warframe (hopefully), not just that slow-traveling Lanka thing.
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because SOME people like using not maxed out mods apparently. best solution would be to put them in the market and make em (the mods you would buy at least) all common or nontransmutable(also 0 or low credit sell value)
Yeah, there are plenty of ways around that. Put them on the market, change them from being mods at all, and instead just a customizable Warframe feature, adjusting Warframe mod capacity accordingly, etc...
simplifying the Abilities atleast so that instead of a specific Ability it was
either'Common Ability' 'Uncommon Ability' and 'Rare Ability' would already be a huge step forward to creating variety.That actually wouldn't be such a bad compromise if I'm understanding you right. Making it where there are only four Warframe mods, and they just activate the corresponding Warframe's ability while they're equipped.
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Napalms seem overly strong and overly tough in general to me (not saying they break the game, just that they seem to hurt a lot and take a lot compared to other heavy units, in a way that feels arbitrary, and it's silly when they fire point blank).
As for armor though, I hate it. It's essentially a hidden modifier (on your shield/health bar) that dictates what your health actually is. In tough missions, the health number on my Warframe might as well read "1". Having 400 Health or 800 Health on low armor Warframes means nothing. It's unintuitive and frankly kinda silly. What makes it worse is something that I feel is a problem for a lot of more situational mods. Since most things are percentage based, the things that really need the buff don't get anything from it, and the things that are already in a good place just win-more. There's really no point in buffing your health or armor on lower armor frames, because the percentage means your armor will barely change, and your low armor means your health is almost irrelevant.
The current armor and health system should be rolled into a single number that takes all damage evenly. Essentially just calculating out the current modifier and displaying it as the true health. If they want an armor system, it really needs to be something with its own role (instead of just modifying health behind the scenes), and it needs to apply to more than the one or two frames that have enough of it to use it.
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Okay, I wasn't aware of a reason this needed to happen, but it's really broken right now, and I'm not talking about the ammo sharing problem (which is obvious).
I used the Castanas as my main weapon for a long time while I ranked other stuff up and tried to find other things I liked. Maybe it was a bit too powerful, but in my experience, even if you're not using anything that shares ammo with it, it's tiny pool and rare ammo type makes it pretty much worthless now. I know it's a secondary, but a secondary still needs to be useful, at least in an emergency. In higher end content, the Castanas are now depleted in an instant, and even in easier stuff, they'll be gone before you know it. I would be extremely hesitant to even call it a backup at this point.
Whatever the problem was, this isn't a solution, it's just another problem.
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I think it will be hard to offset the single target nature of Snipers in Warframe, since the trade-offs for snipers don't matter as much in this game, like range (since few areas are large enough to need more than the average rifle), so I don't really have many ideas for it.
All I can think of is, like you said, some sort of Codex Scanner-like innate ability to see through walls, and maybe some innate Punch Through to go with it. If Snipers can't have the advantage of range, they can at least still be good scout/stealth type weapons.
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I wouldn't be surprised if there's some technical limitation holding this back, but I encourage Digital Extremes to try their hardest on a solution if there is.
We've finally gotten enough Forma to take the Dojo seriously, and I really like the concept. However, it's really awkward to set up and plan things out at the moment. And with all the refunding and stuff already in the game, I can't imagine a perceived economic or balance reason why we shouldn't have an easier way to move things around.
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Also it should be called the Misaka.
That would be awesome, and blend right in with the rest of the Japanese. ;3
To be honest, when I joined this game, I immediately started looking for all of the electric stuff because of Mikoto. I joined during the window where Volt was not a starter, so I worked hard for him, and Lecta, and the Castanas, and Amprex, and ultimately, Lanka. Boy was I disappointed with the Lanka (though I do not regret the time and effort I put in). Not only was it not the railgun it's sorta implied to be, but despite the niche I've heard it can fill, it definitely doesn't seem worthy of Rank 7. (By the way, not that it seems like I'd have to explain myself, but it's less directly that I'm trying to imitate Mikoto, as much as she helped me realize how much I love electricity powers.)
We definitely need a railgun. They're a really awesome (not so) sci-fi weapon perfect for this game, especially since there are already Railgun Moa and such. I already liked railguns before MIkoto, but come on, we need this:
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I'd love to see more stealth encouraged in this game. When I first started, it seemed extremely difficult and I thought going slow, utilizing backstabs, and avoiding alarms at all costs was part of the point. Guns blazing seemed like a horrible idea reserved for when you had no choice, but not so much anymore. It's going to need some more robust mechanics though, before any serious stealth gameplay would be anything but frustrating.
I think all backstabs need to be insta-kills, not just on Wardens. It's ridiculous to sneak up on a Grineer, snap his neck, and then have him turn around in annoyance and his friends running for alarms.
Second, noise and other detection methods either need to be explained better, or made more simple, so you can be more sure of more variables for proper tactics. Nothing like one guy shooting a single shot at you, and then never seeing another unalerted enemy throughout the rest of the mission again, despite no one triggering an alarm. I don't mean to "dumb it down," just give it more blatant rules like: "noise cannot penetrate doors, so you know that what happens in this room, stays in this room, unless an alarm is triggered." And if it already has rules like that, they need to be made more apparent in the tutorial or something. In real life, a lot of stealth is common sense (what's not luck, at least), but in a game you never know what specifics may or may not have been programmed in, which can drastically affect what tactics are sound (I've played a game where, as long as you were crouching, you could stand in the middle of a group staring right at you and pick them off, and they'd remain confused and passive).
Once the mechanics are cleaned up, one thing I'd like to see is a reason to avoid alarms. Right now, people seem to only shut them off if there's a lockdown (and even then they often still ignore the alarm itself).
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Rescue Missions fall into too many of the Escort Mission tropes that make people hate them, and for good reason.
The NPC should stick close, never stray unless issued a wait command, and always try to find the best cover within that radius. It makes no realistic or gameplay sense to have the NPC randomly hang back, and sometimes stick to fight guys that everyone else is running from. I should never be told to not give the NPC a weapon because it makes them more likely to get killed, or anything else that makes you question their survival instinct. That's not challenge, it's just bad design, I don't care if there are ways to mitigate it.
Optimally, an option should be introduced to throw the NPC over your shoulder, disarming or at least forcing that player into using their sidearm. Firefighters can rescue people that way, why can't literal superhumans? I'd still like to see the AI stupidity addressed regardless though.
I have issues with the Warden version too. I appreciate the effort to make stealth more a part of the game, but I'm kinda glad it usually isn't. It's often very picky, and the punishment for being noticed is far too steep in a way that's not normal for the game. One time I got noticed by a Warden that was in a very strange place, to say the least. Sometimes you don't have much of a choice. You shouldn't have to have a specific build to do such a common mission type without such massive risks.
What Warframe Can Learn From Destiny's Mixed Reviews
in General
Posted
The point of this thread isn't to say Destiny is exactly like Warframe, or that Warframe should copy Destiny.
The point is that the similarities they do and already share are being criticized on Destiny's end in a high profile way. The quotes from those reviews sound uncannily like they're reviewing Warframe.
Destiny had a lot of hype and is getting a lot more attention for it, which is actually a really good thing for Warframe. It allows Warframe to fix these issues at home while everyone's distracted (although I realize Warframe already has gotten criticized for some of these things, it's lower profile gives it a better chance of recovering).
Also, ignoring the fact that Warframe's "beta" is practically only in name (from a marketing/audience perspective), beta is exactly the time they have the best chance to react to feedback like this. And the whole point of feedback is to bring attention to something that the developers may not know about, or may not know exactly how it's being perceived in the larger audience. They can't very well address issues in the beta if no one ever tells them they're issues.