Still On The Nova Op Topic

[Communist101]

Glass Cannon is true I would really like to say if they dropped the health and Shields, Nova would be rather balanced, keep movement otherwise if you didn't have it would be a rather hard Frame to play.

 

I wouldn't mind much if the Speed debuff on the Prime went away, as long as the Damage, chainable, and Aoe were left alone

 

In PvP Duels the only skill that allows damage to another player is Drop and that's it.... (For those who think, But you can launch it before the match starts, well then all that needs to be done is disable all stuff till timer is done.)

 

Finally At the end of the day, why the hell does another really care about wether or not she is OP, this is a Coop game... Oh but I don't get any kills, you may say.... Who cares!!! you won the match and got your loot whats the difference?

 

Nothing in this game is OP as it isn't a game heavily based in fighting other players. If you want something harder go to a different game or just stick with the worst stuff you can have and play solo on the hardest maps!

"Who cares if something is OP? It is a CO-OP game!" is one of the most miserable piece of excuse I have ever heard in any game I have ever played. People WILL still find ways to compete with other people even if the game is not PVP, because it is a multiplayer game. PVP or Co-op games, it is STILL a multiplayer game, and people WILL compete with others, such as in terms of damage output and what-not.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Communist101

[ThePresident777]

M.Prime is the funnest thing in this game.  Nerfers, go play level 200 nightmare mod.

[Xeonyx]

-snip-

 

Not only that, but the true problem is that M Prime is able to almost insta-clear any room / wave if you are playing anything other than T3 / high level endless defense at a late wave. And what does that mean ? That means that the other team members do not get to actually play the game.

 

Yes they get XP, mods and whatnot, sure. But I think that when people play a game it is to enjoy themselves rather than just for the sake of playing. So no, M Prime spam does not steal my XP or loot but It "steals my fun", and that is way worse.

[Falling_Tide]

Not only that, but the true problem is that M Prime is able to almost insta-clear any room / wave if you are playing anything other than T3 / high level endless defense at a late wave. And what does that mean ? That means that the other team members do not get to actually play the game.

 

Yes they get XP, mods and whatnot, sure. But I think that when people play a game it is to enjoy themselves rather than just for the sake of playing. So no, M Prime spam does not steal my XP or loot but It "steals my fun", and that is way worse.

There we go finally something worth fighting for.

 

Fun is the reason why many people play games.

I care not for people saying it needs to be nerfed do to high damage or making things easy or insta clearing, etc

 

but now you have a good clean reason. Fun.

 

Fun is one of the main reasons I play this frame, I am sorry to all whos fun it kills when Nova uses M Prime.

 

So there have been many suggestions involving how to nerf it to make it less OP well look at the bottom of Page 5, I have some posts there that might be of interest to you.

 

 

And yes I do sport a Nova Pic but that's because she is an extremely cute warframe, right up there with ember.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Falling_Tide

[Mosychuk]

I said MPrime could be a more devastating attack (and it still could), but in all honesty it's right about where it needs to be in terms of power. What doesnt make sense is it's slow effect or it's damage multiplier. Even if we were to keep those effects attached, however, at the heart of everything is that the 'ultimate' attack for Nova is a higher potential threat than those crafted for the other frames. Instead of nerfing MPrime, which can take chunks out of T3 ancients given the circumstance, why dont we motion to BUFF the ultimate on other frames.

 

Here im citing a max focus rank 3 Crush on Mag, which on a lv60-70 ancient hits for about 1/30th their total health. We could argue that whatever lives after being crushed is slowed/stunned due to broken bones, in addition to a damage buff because let's face it.. Crush's effect is pretty massive. Frost... his ultimate should honestly have a slow attached as well, or a confuse, along with a high chance to shatter opponents regardless of health or level upon getting hit while frozen. I cant really say much for Nyx, sorry guys, it's damage reflect. Maybe a damage buff...

 

Yes, with damage/effect buffs a rank 3 ultimate on most frames will probably roll mid-tier mobs over pretty quickly, but so does MPrime. As the level increases, though, we see that the ultimate abilities become much less effective.

 

EDIT: I'm going to have to clarify eventually.. when i say buff the ultimates, im in no way trying to state "Oh lets just buff it all and eventually be too strong for challenging content," I'm just saying that the ultimates sitting currently on other frames than Nova are outdated, and need reinventing. Most of them have one effect, low damage.. where Mprime has high damage and multiple effects so YES, it'll be OP in the scheme of things. However, playing against level 170 corpus MPrime did small amounts of damage, whereas other ultimates do close to none, this is where im justifying a damage buff.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Mosychuk

[TwiceDead]

I said MPrime could be a more devastating attack (and it still could), but in all honesty it's right about where it needs to be in terms of power. What doesnt make sense is it's slow effect or it's damage multiplier. Even if we were to keep those effects attached, however, at the heart of everything is that the 'ultimate' attack for Nova is a higher potential threat than those crafted for the other frames. Instead of nerfing MPrime, which can take chunks out of T3 ancients given the circumstance, why dont we motion to BUFF the ultimate on other frames.

 

Here im citing a max focus rank 3 Crush on Mag, which on a lv60-70 ancient hits for about 1/30th their total health. We could argue that whatever lives after being crushed is slowed/stunned due to broken bones, in addition to a damage buff because let's face it.. Crush's effect is pretty massive. Frost... his ultimate should honestly have a slow attached as well, or a confuse, along with a high chance to shatter opponents regardless of health or level upon getting hit while frozen. I cant really say much for Nyx, sorry guys, it's damage reflect. Maybe a damage buff...

 

Yes, with damage/effect buffs a rank 3 ultimate on most frames will probably roll mid-tier mobs over pretty quickly, but so does MPrime. As the level increases, though, we see that the ultimate abilities become much less effective.

 

Or you know, rather than have every frames ultimate be another M.Prime look-a-like due to unnecessary buffing across the board on all frames, they could just nerf M.Prime itself to bring it down to the other frames level. 

Currently M.Prime has:

- Insane Range

- Amazing CC

- Severe Debuff

- Explosion on Death 

If you bring every frames ultimate up to that level, every ultimate will have: 

- Insane Range 

- Amazing CC

- Severe Debuff

- Explosion at some point to clear the room. 

... See what I'm getting at? You can't bring another frame's ultimate up to M.Prime's level without making it an M.Prime clone. 

 

 

There we go finally something worth fighting for.

 

Fun is the reason why many people play games.

I care not for people saying it needs to be nerfed do to high damage or making things easy or insta clearing, etc

 

but now you have a good clean reason. Fun.

 

. . . . . . . . . 

 

Dude, why do you think people scream NERF to begin with? To please their own sick fetishes as a forum troll? 

I don't know about you, but i'd suspect they call nerfs because they are not having fun when things are OP beyond the superstition of god, and all their religions. 

[Mosychuk]

Or you know, rather than have every frames ultimate be another M.Prime look-a-like due to unnecessary buffing across the board on all frames, they could just nerf M.Prime itself to bring it down to the other frames level. 

Currently M.Prime has:

- Insane Range

- Amazing CC

- Severe Debuff

- Explosion on Death 

If you bring every frames ultimate up to that level, every ultimate will have: 

- Insane Range 

- Amazing CC

- Severe Debuff

- Explosion at some point to clear the room. 

... See what I'm getting at? You can't bring another frame's ultimate up to M.Prime's level without making it an M.Prime clone.

I understand that 100%, but here's where the other end of the spectrum comes in:

 

We bring MPrime down to the level of every other ultimate, we enter a situation where we're fighting high level, end-game mobs. Every other ultimate, does nothing to deter these levels of mobs, making them useless. Again, i can perform a max focus crush with Mag on a lv68 infested ancient, and see it take off 1/30th to 1/50th of it's health bar. This is nothing. This forces us to resort to using guns exclusively because time spent casting ultimates will overall do less damage than simply shooting.

 

The other fallacy presented is that every ultimate MUST be a prime-clone and have an exposion, slow and debuff. There's a plethora of skill effects we can explore and utilize to maximize the usefulness of each ultimate.

 

The point I'm getting at, is that MPrime, while it wipes whole rooms of low/mid-tier mobs, ends up simply becoming a useful end-game skill when faced with higher and higher level enemies. At the highest level, MPrime works how you'd imagine an ultimate skill working optimally.

 

The suggestion I've been thinking of is progressively adding to the effects of an ultimate as a frame is Forma'd, or otherwise levelled so that , no, a frame with just focus, stretch, and MPrime cant wipe entire rooms of mobs, but a high-level frame that's had time put into it has a greatly increased effect on it's MPrime so that yes, it will wipe whole rooms of mobs. Of course it'll have the same effect it does now on the high-tier mobs im talking about, but on mid/low-tier mobs it'll be a proportional effect, not just overkill.

[Liminal]

Difference is that Radial Disarm doesn't annihilate all life at lower levels. Had they removed the explosion at the end, Molecular Prime would be fine. 

That is different logic. I was quoting a specific phrase.

 

[Hayden11121]

That is different logic. I was quoting a specific phrase.

Just because you weren't discussing it doesn't mean it isn't a solid point.

 

Radial Disarm is great on any level. Just so happens everything gets LolStomped, so at the higher levels when enemies are bullet sponges stronger then Zeus and Jesus, it does the same thing on lower levels, just it doesn't get gibbed.

 

Sort of like Energy Vampire, Well Of Life, and all the other abiltiies requiring enemies to be alive

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I think that no matter what I tell you, you won't change your opinion.

You'll have to provide actual sound reasoning to get me to change my opinion. Making a list of "THIS IS OP" accompanied by capslock and histrionics doesn't do that.

 

Why do I think so?

You think a debuff that does the following is not good enough:

- Halves fire-rate.

- Halves Melee-rate.

- Halves movement speed.

- Halves the speed of anything that mob(including bosses) is trying to do.

- Causes the affected to take DOUBLE DAMAGE (2x damage).

The damage and ROF debuff are the only major benefits here. Melee speed debuffs are not a big deal because if Nova is in melee range of a boss, something's gone wrong. (Or she's trying to bait Kril's hammer, but that's easy enough without the speed debuff.)

Nor for that matter is the halved movement speed, because bosses in this game (Vor excepted) don't move around all that much. Except Kril in phase 2.

Again though, the point is that this is pretty much all Nova brings to the table in a boss fight. She has no hard CC and her damage dealing abilities don't work against huge HP armored targets. She doesn't have the defensive abilities that Rhino, Saryn, or Loki have. She doesn't have Banshee's CC and her utility is gravely inferior on account of Banshee's sonar giving you an extra 300% DPS on top of what you already have. She doesn't even have Mag's hard CC or defensive abilities.

 

You might as well cut the boss HP in half, and his damage output in half while you're at it... OH WAIT THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT MOLECULAR PRIME DOES!

OH GOD LECH KRIL HAS 20K EFFECTIVE HEALTH INSTEAD OF 40K AND ONLY 1K DPS INSTEAD OF 2K DPS! MY CAPSLOCK IS STUCK!

 

Apparently for you it's not good enough in a player vs boss context.

Not compared to what other frames have in their powersets, no.

 

EDIT x2:

Moving around tends to help by the way, you know like... Taking cover and stuff... Should you be in danger of dying if the boss looks your way.

Listen, dude, I solo all the bosses as my preferred method of boss farming. I can do this with most frames, Nova included. Player skill compensating for frame shortcomings doesn't mean that Nova is good against bosses. She's at a significant disadvantage because M-Prime is literally all she has when it comes to bosses and in context of huge HP huge DPS bosses, M-Prime simply isn't enough. Rhino has the iron skin and stomp. Loki has decoy and invisibility. Trinity has (soon to be nerfed) link and (soon to be buffed) blessing spam.

Oh sure M-Prime contributes to the team, but at that point you're basically being carried by your team after you cast M-Prime. Indeed, you could replace Nova with Banshee and do even better because sonar is cheaper and has a massively greater damage buff.

 

Halved Movement Speed and Double Damage are both way more useful on higher levels and in boss-fights than that silly explosion at the end, no matter how you look at it.

Yes, sure. On account of bosses and high level enemies having huge amounts of HP and armor (also M-Prime explosions only going off when the target dies)... Which is rather my point.

Not only that, but the true problem is that M Prime is able to almost insta-clear any room / wave if you are playing anything other than T3 / high level endless defense at a late wave. And what does that mean ? That means that the other team members do not get to actually play the game.

Fundamentally, this is not a problem with Nova. You might not have been here before Nova came out, but Saryn did the same thing. Now Rhino does the same thing as well with stomp, and when the armor rework comes, Ember will probably be able to do the same thing with WoF. Maybe even Mag and Volt with their ults.

The problem here is ult spam in general, and that needs a wider solution than nerfing any one particular frame.

If you absolutely have to nerf Nova, though, the best solution is to make M-Prime a power in use ability ala Chaos, because that way it won't be spammable at all while preserving Nova's most useful power.

Also it feels like they stealth nerfed Nova's explosion range. Last night I was doing that Outer Terminus alert and Grineer had to be right up next to each other to chain react. :(

Edited September 5, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Hayden11121]

Facehugger, learn math is all I can say.

 

If it takes 5 minutes to do 100,000 damage, and now all of a sudden you deal 2x damage, it takes 2.5 minutes to get the same outcome.

 

Now, that leads to 1/2 ammo being used.

 

But meanwhile the enemy can output 150,000 damage in one minute, but now because he is slow he now outputs only 75,000.

 

I don't see how you're not getting this. You are literally speeding up the fight on your side by double and slowing their side by half. If that isn't useful on bosses then I don't know what is.

 

And quit bumping!

[taiiat]

Nova avatar? Figures.

 

Try making sense instead of saying I resort to killstealing, and give actual facts instead of "OMG HE IS NUB"

you're expecting too much. don't hurt yourself over these people, it's not worth it.

 

 

 

 I was also on the band wagon called "nerf nova" when i first got her, but now i might see the point in "dont nerf nova" thoughts.

i've used Nova a lot, i don't even equip MPrime and she's still pretty silly even without it. 

 

Nova is certainly good for more than just killing, frankly. Null Star has a considerable amount of utility, it's nice to have. 

 

 

 

 

once again, reducing the explosion range considerably on MPrime would fix 90+% of peoples' problems with Nova.

Edited September 5, 2013 by taiiat

[TwiceDead]

Prepare for sarcastic replies in 3...2...1: 

You'll have to provide actual sound reasoning to get me to change my opinion. Making a list of "THIS IS OP" accompanied by capslock and histrionics doesn't do that.

 

Told you. Shouldn't have bothered. 

 

The damage and ROF debuff are the only major benefits here. Melee speed debuffs are not a big deal because if Nova is in melee range of a boss, something's gone wrong. (Or she's trying to bait Kril's hammer, but that's easy enough without the speed debuff.)
 

The point: -----------> =D

Your head: (o_o )

Again though, the point is that this is pretty much all Nova brings to the table in a boss fight. She has no hard CC and her damage dealing abilities don't work against huge HP armored targets.  She doesn't have Banshee's CC and her utility is gravely inferior on account of Banshee's sonar giving you an extra 300% DPS on top of what you already have.

lolwat.

As for the Banshee comment, there goes your opinion of "Ermahgerd DPS don-MATTER!" 

OH GOD LECH KRIL HAS 20K EFFECTIVE HEALTH INSTEAD OF 40K AND ONLY 1K DPS INSTEAD OF 2K DPS! MY CAPSLOCK IS STUCK!
 

... oh my god. 

Listen, dude, I solo all the bosses as my preferred method of boss farming. I can do this with most frames, Nova included. Player skill compensating for frame shortcomings doesn't mean that Nova is good against bosses. She's at a significant disadvantage because M-Prime is literally all she has when it comes to bosses and in context of huge HP huge DPS bosses, M-Prime simply isn't enough. Rhino has the iron skin and stomp. Loki has decoy and invisibility. Trinity has (soon to be nerfed) link and (soon to be buffed) blessing spam.

So I guess 200k+ damage anti-matter drop doesn't count, right? Neither does the oh-S#&$ portals. 

 

Oh sure M-Prime contributes to the team, but at that point you're basically being carried by your team after you cast M-Prime. Indeed, you could replace Nova with Banshee and do even better because sonar is cheaper and has a massively greater damage buff.

My hat's off to you. 

 

Fundamentally, this is not a problem with Nova. You might not have been here before Nova came out, but Saryn did the same thing. Now Rhino does the same thing as well with stomp, and when the armor rework comes, Ember will probably be able to do the same thing with WoF. Maybe even Mag and Volt with their ults.

I applaud you! 

 

The problem here is ult spam in general, and that needs a wider solution than nerfing any one particular frame.

Sure, ult-spam in general is an issue... But that's not an excuse to look away when another glaring issue is slapped in your face. 

 

If you absolutely have to nerf Nova, though, the best solution is to make M-Prime a power in use ability ala Chaos, because that way it won't be spammable at all while preserving Nova's most useful power.

The best solution is to remove the chain-explosion at the end. I am completely fine with the slow-down and the double-damage, the explosions must go IMO. To be fair I don't care what they remove, as long as it doesn't have three kings sitting on one throne. 

 

Also it feels like they stealth nerfed Nova's explosion range. Last night I was doing that Outer Terminus alert and Grineer had to be right up next to each other to chain react. :(

Seems that made you sad. Too bad. 

 

- - - - - - - - - 

 

With the above said, I am not even bother trying to convince you again. I am not going to be so stupid as to insult your intelligence because I am sure you comprehend the issue, you just fail to comprehend the sheer size of the huge advantage she has...

 

That or I am wrong, and you just don't get it afterall. 

 

[TunaMayo]

 

 

The best solution is to remove the chain-explosion at the end. I am completely fine with the slow-down and the double-damage, the explosions must go IMO. To be fair I don't care what they remove, as long as it doesn't have three kings sitting on one throne. 

 

 

 

What???!!! That was the sole original idea, chain reaction explosions!!

 

Whilst I am not pro-nerf, I would rather wait until armour 2.0 etc, if anything has to go it is the slow.

 

Removing the chain explosions would:

 

a) completely divert from the original power that was voted for by the design council, effectively rendering their decision moot.

b) make the power 100% less fun to use

c) make a damage based frame's ultimate a CC and utility based power.

 

Removing the CC (slow) would reduce the perceived "OP" nature of Mol Prime as it would no longer function as CC. That can be left to a CC frame in all honesty, Nova doesn't need that.

[Liminal]

Just because you weren't discussing it doesn't mean it isn't a solid point.

 

Radial Disarm is great on any level. Just so happens everything gets LolStomped, so at the higher levels when enemies are bullet sponges stronger then Zeus and Jesus, it does the same thing on lower levels, just it doesn't get gibbed.

 

Sort of like Energy Vampire, Well Of Life, and all the other abiltiies requiring enemies to be alive

What I was saying is that if you want to prove Molecular Prime is overpowered don't use the fact that it's great in the endgame.

Yes, it's incredibly useful throughout the game, but if it's overpowered it's not because of that. In fact, all ultimate skills should be useful throughout the game.

 

I'm not saying she's fine as she is right now, and I definitely agree she needs tweaking; I'm just wary of an "over-nerf" because of the large number of "Nerf Nova" threads.

Frames that only deal damage with their abilities don't tend to be much fun and lose a lot of effectiveness in higher levels (except maybe Saryn) and most complaints about Nova are about her room-clearing power, not about the x2 damage multiplier and speed debuff, which makes me wonder what some people really want.

I want to trust DE on how they'll handle this, but I admit I'm a bit concerned.

[Critter]

Idk if anyone pointed this out already but Nova using MP means that 100% of the xp gain for the Nova in question goes to the warframe. I.e. Spamming MP means you don't level your weapons at all. Just some food for thought ;)