Adaptation Nezha

[-GothKazu-]

So after testing Adaptation on Nekros, I've decided to try our new Flame King.

But my Umbral Nezha has only on mod slot open for experimentation and I have to remove other mods just to fit Adaptation without forma so

Has anyone else tried it already? Does it affect Warding Halo? I know it affects the 10% of damage you take (because that's what it effects normally) but basically is it worth the forma?

I understand fully that nezha would basically have a 90% DR ON TOP of another 90% DR, no need to tell me.

[Eirshy]

1 minute ago, Ailyene said:

I used Rail Moas.

What's your source on Rail Moas being pure (NOT primary) impact damage?

[Ailyene]

9 minutes ago, Eirshy said:

What's your source on Rail Moas being pure (NOT primary) impact damage?

I just said that they were only mostly Impact damage (90%+) and gave you the test data showing that at 90% Adaption it blocks out 90% of the Rail Moa total damage on Health.

The tests also show 90% Adaptation blocks out more than 90% on Impact, but still that means at least around ~90% of the damage being done is from Impact.

 

Edit:

I believe there has been a misunderstanding by "(90%+ pure) impact damage" I meant around 90% or more of the damage being done was Impact and not that I was 90% sure it was Pure Impact damage.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ailyene

[Eirshy]

26 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

I just said that they were only mostly Impact damage (90%+) and gave you the test data showing that at 90% Adaption it blocks out 90% of the damage on Health.

The tests also show 90% Adaptation blocks out more than 90% on Impact, but still that means at least around ~90% of the damage being done is from Impact.

Mostly is an important note because Adaptation only affects that portion of the damage.

However, it being roughly 45% on shields means it might be additive at the elemental matchup level. IE, magnetic vs shields w/ 90% adapt would get you 15% dr vs magnetic. What's strange is that it still only grants 90% on Inaros against it.

DR values from mods have traditionally been rather wonky. The now-defuct /wrists Trin build for ESO, for example, actually depended on Aviator being additive with a lot of DR sources.

 

I will say however that you need to actually calculate the percentage of damage that is Impact, as you need to treat it entirely as its own thing. The other important thing to note is that it could be functioning kinda like Armor. Corrosive, for example, gets both +75% damage and 75% bypass vs Ferrite armor, so the +50% vs Shields might be causing it to bypass part of the DR- and amplify the effective DR vs flesh, skewing the data by a factor that could cause apparent 90% DR.

As for how to do that.... I'm honestly not sure. We actually have two unknown components (assuming it's pure physical, so IPS), but only two data points we can calculate without assuming something about how Adapt works. Might be usable anyways though, but I'd have to actually put marker to whiteboard.

Also, can't even backport that via blast damage from bombard rockets (purity semi-verifiable via Ferrite getting a known -25% vs blast, while shields take 100%), as that would assume Adapt's DR doesn't interact weirdly with elemental matchups.... though it might let us test if elemental matchups is what's causing the weirdness more cleanly assuming Bombard Rockets are in fact pure blast.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Eirshy

[Ailyene]

20 minutes ago, Eirshy said:

Mostly is an important note because Adaptation only affects that portion of the damage.

However, it being roughly 45% on shields means it might be additive at the elemental matchup level. IE, magnetic vs shields w/ 90% adapt would get you 15% dr vs magnetic. What's strange is that it still only grants 90% on Inaros against it.

DR values from mods have traditionally been rather wonky. The now-defuct /wrists Trin build for ESO, for example, actually depended on Aviator being additive with a lot of DR sources.

 

I will say however that you need to actually calculate the percentage of damage that is Impact, as you need to treat it entirely as its own thing. The other important thing to note is that it could be functioning kinda like Armor. Corrosive, for example, gets both +75% damage and 75% bypass vs Ferrite armor, so the +50% vs Shields might be causing it to bypass part of the DR- and amplify the effective DR vs flesh, skewing the data by a factor that could cause apparent 90% DR.

As for how to do that.... I'm honestly not sure. We actually have two unknown components (assuming it's pure physical, so IPS), but only two data points we can calculate without assuming something about how Adapt works. Might be usable anyways though, but I'd have to actually put marker to whiteboard.

Also, can't even backport that via blast damage from bombard rockets (purity semi-verifiable via Ferrite getting a known -25% vs blast, while shields take 100%), as that would assume Adapt's DR doesn't interact weirdly with elemental matchups.... though it might let us test if elemental matchups is what's causing the weirdness more cleanly assuming Bombard Rockets are in fact pure blast.

What I'm assuming though is that I cannot block 90% of total damage by adapting to a single damage type unless that damage source was at least 90% of that damage type itself which gives me a baseline of 90% Impact damage for the Rail Moa.

Like you've said though, we have no idea how Adapt actually works and most tests with mobs have a fair bit of assumption involved. 

But Rail Moa being 90%+ Impact is pretty much certain I think, unless Adaptation can block multiple damage types with a single adaption type, and if that's the case then there is something wrong on a fundamental level with the mod.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ailyene

[Eirshy]

48 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

What I'm assuming though is that I cannot block 90% of total damage by adapting to a single damage type unless that damage source was at least 90% of that damage type itself which gives me a baseline of 90% Impact damage for the Rail Moa.

Like you've said though, we have no idea how Adapt actually works and most tests with mobs have a fair bit of assumption involved. 

But Rail Moa being 90%+ Impact is pretty much certain I think, unless Adaptation can block multiple damage types with a single adaption type, and if that's the case then there is something wrong on a fundamental level with the mod.

If the wonkiness is happening because of type matchup, remember that you have a favorable soak vs flesh already (-25%). It's possible that the actual DR value is much "higher", and is only resulting in an apparent 90%. In essence, dr = f(d, a=0.9, m=0.75), not dr = f(d, a=0.9).

And since we have three assumed variables (I, P, S), we'd need a third datapoint without Adaptation to actually solve for any of them.

 

EDIT: Essentially, you're poking an absurdly complex system with too many variables and not enough under-the-hood knowledge to really make claims about edge cases. You'd need to show pure impact independent of Adaptation before being able to claim it's pure impact. It's highly possible that the negative damage heal fix is only applied at the final stage of the formula, meaning a 110% DR (for example) results in "healing" 10% of that element's damage type in the middle of the formula. This would skew the apparent DR against the hit upwards, and is but one possible way to achieve an apparent 90% DR without the attack being pure Impact.

About all you have done is confirm that it's naive to assume Adaptation is a separate 0~90% DR against a specific elemental component.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Eirshy

[burem0n0]

So TLDR, is adaptation worth on Nezha or nah?

[Ailyene]

1 hour ago, burem0n0 said:

So TLDR, is adaptation worth on Nezha or nah?

I would say definite yes against Corpus (Lots of pure elements and Puncture), its okay if you can fit it in against Grineer, and not really recommended against Infested unless you have nothing better (Toxin just ignores much of Adaption and they rarely hit fast enough to maintain stacks).

I worked out that it blocks 90% of damage before modification from Flesh/Shield health types (with small inconsistency).  So if something does like 100 toxin damage this gets converted to 150 from damage type modifiers but it will only work on and off of the original 100 making it scale and resist much less than it should.

[burem0n0]

2 hours ago, Ailyene said:

I would say definite yes against Corpus (Lots of pure elements and Puncture), its okay if you can fit it in against Grineer, and not really recommended against Infested unless you have nothing better (Toxin just ignores much of Adaption and they rarely hit fast enough to maintain stacks).

I worked out that it blocks 90% of damage before modification from Flesh/Shield health types (with small inconsistency).  So if something does like 100 toxin damage this gets converted to 150 from damage type modifiers but it will only work on and off of the original 100 making it scale and resist much less than it should.

Leave it at rank 0 for 2 mod capacity only or have to level it up to max? Guessing leaving it at rank 0 will be sufficient since nezha already tanky with his 3

[Ailyene]

1 minute ago, burem0n0 said:

Leave it at rank 0 for 2 mod capacity only or have to level it up to max? Guessing leaving it at rank 0 will be sufficient since nezha already tanky with his 3

That's really more up to your playstyle and the situation its being used in I think, I don't have a second Adaptation mod so I maxed mine. 

I enjoy the added duration and ramp up speed but if you are in a situation where you are constantly being peppered with attacks like ESO, a lower rank one wouldn't hurt either.

For solo Fortuna bounties I find it running out or almost running out between stacks at max rank due to low mob spawns, so a higher rank would help in that situation.