Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[Skeptic]

@ DEMegan : I'm in favor of improving the way the damage scales on higher level enemies (as others have been suggesting for some time now), hopefully that will be in the next round of damage changes.

Since you asked for suggestions on how to further differentiate Overheat and World On Fire...

(Apologies in advance for possibly repeating the suggestions of others, since I didn't read the whole thread.)

My suggestion would be to give WoF a faster animation and a very brief (maybe a few seconds) of invulnerability for Ember and maybe a small speed boost to help with escapes. This would be extra useful since her defensive ability was already reduced without making her another tank. Additionally, perhaps you could give WoF more utility such as either a more effective stun, or maybe even better IMO, a knockdown/knockback like enemies were hit by a blast wave. Maybe make it periodic blast waves that increase in speed/intensity with the mod's rank?
 

Thanks!

[Mak_Gohae]

That wasn't all she could do, but she was probably the best frame in the game for it. I had tremendous fun on many occasions playing search and rescue. *nods* The fact that she was the only frame that could reliably survive being hit by a void laser meant she was ideal for dangerous rescues on T3 defense. *laughs* Of course, once my teammates realized this, they started being more reckless. *shakes head and sighs fondly* That was a fun evening.

 

Really? Really? With all the abilities and options out there to safely get people up this is the thing that gets called "probably the best"?

 

>You cannot balance the game on the hardest part.

>Cannot balance the game.

>Hardest part.

>greentexting

Yeah, this is when your credibility went downhill.

 

 

Why did my credibility go downhill?

Elaborate

 

 

Ember IS fine on Pluto, but, well.

On Outer Terminus, past level 75, she can't even do any damage. 232, MAXIMUM, on every enemy.

 

You need more elaborating here.

What does 232 mean? Is this one specific power? Is this 232 per dot? What is it?

 

 

Is that a good balance? No. That's bullS#&$, because Saryn can do 500+, Armor Ignoring damage on anyone in that level.

 

Balance doesnt mean everyone does equal damage. There are other things to factor here, one easy one being the fact that she CCs with all her powers.

 

An example of balance was what was done with FB, before it had a long reach but to BALANCE that reach damage was low. Now the ability does more damage but the range is smaller.  There are several factors to considered when balancing something.

 

 

 

You see, Ember's role in team playing WASN'T as a Caster, oh no.

That role was for Saryn, and Nova. Why? Her damage is SHI*.

 

She is not a nuker, you folks keep comparing her to a nuker.

 

 

 

With the old Overheat, she WAS a reviver.

 

Pretty sure she could still revive with her other powers.

 

 

Your argument on "this is a team game", and you despise the idea of "Overheat Revival", is pretty amusing to see.

You contradict yourself, and that's cute.

 

When did i say i despise anything?

All i said is that i found that role to be funny.

 

 

 

Now, Ember's Overheat is like Loki's or Ash's invisibility, OR Rhino's $&*&*#(%& Skin, when in term of team playing.

Why? Because it doesn't affect your team, it affects YOU. YOURSELF.

So, is that a "team skill?" No. Does it beneficial for the whole team? Yes.

Overheat, Retard Skin, Invisibility, and Smokescreen ARE useful in team play, to revive, or to help yourself to not burden your friends, and survive yourself.

A friend's dead? Make yourself useful, and revive your team. Loki and Ash do a wonderful job with their invisibility, and Rhino can tear apart every S#&$ available on the area.

OR, don't &!$$ your friends off by dying by activating those skills in critical moments.

That is team playing.

If you mean by "team playing" is "eh someone can revive my friend not me lol", or "i use ember but i dun wan revive becuz i weak lol," then clearly you're an egocentric bastard, and your talk about "team playing" are all pitiful to read.

 

I dont really know what these group of words were trying to convey because you say some abilities are not part of team play then later on go on to say they are. So.... you made no point at all.

 

 

 

Also,

Yes. SINCE the day 1, her damaging abilities are all S#&$.

So, to be useful, she need to do something, right?

That is team play. Being useful to everyone in your team IS a team playing.

Your definition of team playing is just like team-playing in a generic FPS game. Non-existent at all and every man for themselves.

 

She does decent damage and CC with all her abilities..... apparently that is not contributing?

 

 

But if someone else does her job better then something's wrong.

 

Whats her job in your eyes and who can do her job better?

And why is that  problem?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Mak_Gohae]

You've obviously never played ember, neither before or after the update. She does fine until sedna and neptune but once you get to Ceres WoF barely makes a dent in enemies and they tear through overheat faster than level 100 corpus pop ironskin. Obviously you can still play her on all the planets but it's not because she's useful, it's because your weapons can carry you.

 

First.... now you cant use weapons? Huh? How do you play? Do you just keep using powers through the mission?

 

Second, what do you mean by "barely makes a dent"?

Can you get more specific here.

Do you mean she doesnt kill fast enough for your taste or are you saying she cant kill?

 

This has nothing to do with Rhino and IS. Rhino still had great CC throughout all the IS changes. Ember never had good damage, at any point, overheat took up the slack for all her terrible abilities, now it doesn't. "all her powers still CC". No, they don't. Again, you've obviously never played ember.

 

This has everything to do with Rhino.

The argument you folks are having here is exactly the same argument was had about Rhino when IS was changed. It's really uncanny.

 

People said that now he lost his role and the frame was wrecked because he didnt do enough damage and his stuns weren't cool enough, and people kept saying the same crap ,"why should i use Rhino when X frame cause do Y thing better." Focus on comparing one power to another and only using one effect of the power.

 

Seriously, it's funny.

[D3ST]

1) fireball should work more like saryns first skill, Venom.....

when enemyes are struck, they should keep taking damage, and the fire should spread to nerby enemys

Basically the same effect as Venom, just with fire..

 

2) Overheat,..... revert the damage reduction to before the nerf,

or atleast in the range of around 70-75% with fully leveled focus,..

All the arguments of her being the only other tank frame than Rhino, is still valid..

 

3) Fireblast,..... never understood, why enemyes only take damage when crossing the "Wall part" of the circle,

they should take DOT inside the ENTIRE circle, for the compleate duration of the skill..

 

4) WOF. Should effect ALL enemyes inside the affected area, not just 3,

Lower the range instead, as WOF will follow you when u move around

 

Novas ult effect ALL enemyes in range!

Saryns ult effect ALL enemyes in range!

Ashs ult effect 16 enemyes in range!

Excaliburs ult effect 15 enemyes in range!

Banshees ult effect ALL enemyes in range!

Mags ult effect ALL enemyes in range!

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

 

If u want to balance the powers of the frames, these are issues that need some serious attention Imho..

[Kinethia]

I recall a conversation I had with a fellow designer while he was making character classes for a pen & paper RPG system. He said that the key to making fun abilities is to create a system and world which has many fundamental rules and limitations, around which everything is balanced and centered, and then design the ability to bend or break one of those rules.

 

As an example, one of the most memorable classes he created specialized in contributing to combat after falling unconscious. It broke the rule that being knocked out removed a character from play.

 

Many warframe abilities also follow this philosophy, whether intentional or not.

 

Sometimes the rules they break are large and obvious. For example:

- Frost's Snow Globe and Volt's Electric Shield, which break a key rule, "If thy bullets may reach thine enemies, thine enemies' bullets may reach thee."

- Several of Vauban's abilities break the rule, "Thou shalt not control thine enemies' movements."

- Many abilities belonging to many warframes break the rule, "Thou cannot traverse the distance between two points without using thy legs."

- As well as, "If thou stands openly in front of thine enemy, thine enemy will surely attack thee."

- Mag's Bullet Attractor breaks the rather cardinal rule of shooters, "Thou must aim at thy enemy to inflict damage with thy weapons." (as a note, this is also one of several rules broken by the Ogris, which is part of why that weapon is a nightmare from a balance perspective)

 

Sometimes the rules are small and subtle, such as Banshee's Sonar, which breaks the rules, "Thou shalt not see the enemy without observing them directly." and, "Thine enemies' weak points are determined by the nature and type of the enemy."

 

Ember's abilities lose much of their charm because they all break only a single rule of Warframe, which is the same rule broken by at least one ability belonging to every other frame, as well as several weapons (including the Ogris again). That rule, of course, being, "Thou may only damage one of thine enemies at a time."

 

Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.

 

Just serving some food for thought.

 

EDIT: Proofreading. Also, I apologize for what I'm sure are many misuses of exotic English. I'm only fluent in the modern sort, but I find it helps both presentation and thought process to phrase the rules in a quirky manner. Makes them more memorable. It's another thing I picked up from that same designer.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia

[LittleReshiram]

Dayum, Mak is on his high roll again, omg.

This is fun.

Okay, first of, regarding your reply on my post.

First, you don't like it when WE compare her to Nukers? Okay, fine, let me find someone who isn't a nuker.

Oh wait, I forgot, everyone is a nuker. With whom we can compare her?

I compare her to Saryn AND Nova, because those two are good at their job, and majority of people agree.

Nova is good at massive scale damage, CC, and everything that makes her a good Caster. (Also caster can be a Nuker or not, if you're that oblivious), and Saryn is a very good Tank/Caster.

Oh, also, Saryn's ult isn't an instant 3k damage like a Nuker. It actually does 3 ticks with around 400 armor-ignoring damage per tick, in which each ticks have a short interval..so..yeah. I'm not wrong at comparing Saryn with Ember. Jokes on you.

Second, sure, she can revive her team with her other skills, but, c'mon. No matter how stupid you are, you don't want to waste 100 Energy just to revive a mate, right? Unless the condition forces you to do so. E.g. While also clearing a room.

Also, thirdly. Yes, she have "decent" damage and "CC."

..Yes, I'm implying it.

Decent isn't enough for Ember.

Remember what DE said? She's supposed to be OFFENSIVE. Does offensive means we should just run to the enemy without any protection, hoping we kill them first without us getting killed? Or offensive should be throwing ourselves into dangerous situation that we know we won't survive from, because we have nothing else to do, and died in the end?

Taking risk is fun. Suicide is not. Those two are different.

When the situation forces us to the corner, and the only thing we have is a little glimpse of hope to survive, it means we may lose BUT we also may win, and it'll be worth it. It is fun. Like a gamble.

When the situation forces us, and then we tried as hard as we can to survive, but the game doesn't gave us any chances or means to do so, it's not fun. It's like..well..getting #*($%%@ up.

Lastly, her CC.

Yes she DOES have CCs on all of her skills. BUT, you want to know what other things have her type of CC?

Every weapons with Hellfire/Heated Charge/Whatever-the-name-of-Shotgun-FireDamage-Mod.

Yeah, the Crowd Controlling factor on Ember is as par as any weapon with fire damage. Hell, I can CC better with an Ogris. Or Ignis.

Comparing her CC to anyone else won't do any justice either, because, let's face it, her CC is too short to even be seen by anyone. No one can feel its effect because of how miniscule her CC is affecting the world around her.

Basically, her CC, albeit exist, is nearly useless.

Also, if you're talking about Rhino, the topic is really..different.

You see, Rhino is always a Tank, and even till now, he still is. Hell, Rhino Stomp is one of the best CC I've ever tried, and the laziest one, too. So, yeah. No, Rhino is still the best fat riot police.

Ember doesn't have the luxury of a big shield and health like Rhino. So...yeah. Comparing her with Rhino is base less.

When we're talking about Ember being fragile, it IS a logical topic. Unlike most Rhino users that you refer, because, clearly.

If they, or you, want to whine about Rhino's IS, whine it to Saryn. She doesn't have the luxury of invulnerability. Then again, no one care, and everyone having fun with her anyway.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LittleReshiram

[Rivy]

Whats her job in your eyes and who can do her job better?

And why is that  problem?

Looking at her kit she obviously specializes in AoE murder. But sadly she deals her damage over time, in close range, she moves with poor speed and has low survivability. Oh and she might CC some guys, for a short time, with a redundant kind of CC.

Many frames can do that better than her, even against infested (dealing the damage up front, resisting enemy counterattacks, having better shields and health, having more reliable CC, etc).

It is a problem because the game should be balanced and all frames should be equally viable (overall, of course they are better for different situations).

 

Ember is outclassed by other frames while trying to do her thing... and all of her powers do the that same thing.

Fixing her by putting mods in her doesn't count: another frame with that same mod will still be more effective. Besides, "fixing" a frame by using mods only limits the already poor viable build variety.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Rivy

[Kinethia]

Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.

 

As a follow-up, Saryn somewhat qualifies as unique in this regard as she breaks an almost universal rule of frames, not with her powers, but with her base statistics. If I were to phrase it in the usual manner, it would be, "half or more of thy resilience shall be shields, and not be protected by thine armour, nor qualify as taking damage for Rage and similar effects."

 

She has at least 50% more health than any other frame except Ash, who lacks the armour needed to reap the full potential of this rare quality without much greater risk.

 

Breaking this simple and rather subtle rule actually opens up a world of possibilities for builds which would be downright silly on a Rhino or Frost. The most fun I've had with Saryn by far has been focusing on and exploring this unusual area where she stands well in front of any other frame.

 

Others can experiment a bit with this effect by equipping vitality without redirection and playing at lower levels, but only Saryn is made for it, whether intentional or not.

 

So, once again, it may be possible to make Ember feel more interesting without changing her abilities at all and changing something else instead, albeit much riskier and more difficult from a development perspective, in my opinion.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia

[Juvieus_Kaine]

20+ pages later and I think we've hit the pinnacle of the problem: Ember's abilities don't match the Warframe.

 

As I said in an early post on pg4, she is currently a bit of a mess. I reckon that prior to 9.8, most Ember players would use her as a CC/hit and run specialist. Hit the WoF and Overheat, sprint into combat, slay everything with a blade of choice then move on before you're gunned down, with some Fireballs thrown in for good measure. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Now, with the update, it reads like she's encouraged to do less melee and more hit and run - with damage boosts all round bar WoF, she can dish out more damage than using a melee weapon would and kill quicker than the enemies can shoot her. In theory. In practise, this probably still works but in the late-game it falls over because of the current scaling.

 

So really her changes are more of a prequel to Update10. We know the scaling is being changed and it might be her fire does more innate stun to enemies and more damage overall. Still, if she's a mobile caster/hit and run specialist, Fireblast needs a change at the very least.

[Terrornaut]

Edited and chopped some, but extremely well said.

 

This is very much the problem I have as well. As Ember is now, no amount of damage will make me happy.

 

At levels where she deals enough damage to be effective, everything dies too quickly, without much active participation or strategy from the player. She is OP and boring.

 

At levels where the damage is no longer sufficient, she is less effective than any other frame. Her abilities are frustrating and nigh-impossible to use in most combat situations, and she has no abilities which change the context of the battle in a meaningful and strategic way.

 

There isn't actually any middle ground between these two ranges, which also happens to result in Ember having a difficulty curve shaped like a brick wall at the end of an alley, as illustrated below:

 

___|

 

..............................................................................
... ... ...

 

I recall a conversation I had with a fellow designer while he was making character classes for a pen & paper RPG system. He said that the key to making fun abilities is to create a system and world which has many fundamental rules and limitations, around which everything is balanced and centered, and then design the ability to bend or break one of those rules.

 

Ember's abilities lose much of their charm because they all break only a single rule of Warframe, which is the same rule broken by at least one ability belonging to every other frame, as well as several weapons (including the Ogris again). That rule, of course, being, "Thou may only damage one of thine enemies at a time."

 

Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in.

 

 

I haven't slotted fireball in ages, and after checking it out again, still don't have it.

I would actually take a further damage reduction to overheat IF it made her immune to poison, or granted severe damage reduction to poison.

Anyway, some people don't like running with Embers in groups the same way I don't like having Novas around.  When played half well at a non high level (in Ember's case), things die without anyone getting to do anything and having any fun.  Its a terrible occurrence that your game-play experience comes 'try to do something and wait while other people make number bars raise'.

[D3ST]

I recall a conversation I had with a fellow designer while he was making character classes for a pen & paper RPG system. He said that the key to making fun abilities is to create a system and world which has many fundamental rules and limitations, around which everything is balanced and centered, and then design the ability to bend or break one of those rules.

 

As an example, one of the most memorable classes he created specialized in contributing to combat after falling unconscious. It broke the rule that being knocked out removed a character from play.

 

Many warframe abilities also follow this philosophy, whether intentional or not.

 

Sometimes the rules they break are large and obvious. For example:

- Frost's Snow Globe and Volt's Electric Shield, which break a key rule, "If thy bullets may reach thine enemies, thine enemies' bullets may reach thee."

- Several of Vauban's abilities break the rule, "Thou shalt not control thine enemies' movements."

- Many abilities belonging to many warframes break the rule, "Thou cannot traverse the distance between two points without using thy legs."

- As well as, "If thou stands openly in front of thine enemy, thine enemy will surely attack thee."

- Mag's Bullet Attractor breaks the rather cardinal rule of shooters, "Thou must aim at thy enemy to inflict damage with thy weapons." (as a note, this is also one of several rules broken by the Ogris, which is part of why that weapon is a nightmare from a balance perspective)

 

Sometimes the rules are small and subtle, such as Banshee's Sonar, which breaks the rules, "Thou shalt not see the enemy without observing them directly." and, "Thine enemies' weak points are determined by the nature and type of the enemy."

 

Ember's abilities lose much of their charm because they all break only a single rule of Warframe, which is the same rule broken by at least one ability belonging to every other frame, as well as several weapons (including the Ogris again). That rule, of course, being, "Thou may only damage one of thine enemies at a time."

 

Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.

 

Just serving some food for thought.

 

EDIT: Proofreading. Also, I apologize for what I'm sure are many misuses of exotic English. I'm only fluent in the modern sort, but I find it helps both presentation and thought process to phrase the rules in a quirky manner. Makes them more memorable. It's another thing I picked up from that same designer.

Well spoken Sir,

DE,..Give this man a cookie, and listen to what he said,..

Edited September 11, 2013 by D3ST

[Mak_Gohae]

Dayum, Mak is on his high roll again, omg.

This is fun.

Okay, first of, regarding your reply on my post.

First, you don't like it when WE compare her to Nukers? Okay, fine, let me find someone who isn't a nuker.

Oh wait, I forgot, everyone is a nuker. With whom we can compare her?

I compare her to Saryn AND Nova, because those two are good at their job, and majority of people agree.

Nova is good at massive scale damage, CC, and everything that makes her a good Caster. (Also caster can be a Nuker or not, if you're that oblivious), and Saryn is a very good Tank/Caster.

Oh, also, Saryn's ult isn't an instant 3k damage like a Nuker. It actually does 3 ticks with around 400 armor-ignoring damage per tick, in which each ticks have a short interval..so..yeah. I'm not wrong at comparing Saryn with Ember. Jokes on you.

 

The real conversation here is that you folks want either armor ignore or ridunkulous damage because that's what those two frames have. I dont see you comparing Ember with volt, banshee, mag, ash, you know, the frames without those two things. The Rhino folks were appeased when he was given armor ignore to his forth. Armor ignore seems to be bane of this game when it comes to player "feedback" because everything just get's boiled down to that. 

 

I say DE should remove all armor ignore abilities so we could stop this silliness and replace that effect with a small CC, a stagger, which other teammates can use as an advantage and that's it. Because pretty much all discussion on balancing is just going to revolve around armor ignore since some other frame has it...

 

Second, sure, she can revive her team with her other skills, but, c'mon. No matter how stupid you are, you don't want to waste 100 Energy just to revive a mate, right? Unless the condition forces you to do so. E.g. While also clearing a room.

 

Correct. If you dont need to spend 100 energy ....dont.

 

Also, thirdly. Yes, she have "decent" damage and "CC."

..Yes, I'm implying it.

Decent isn't enough for Ember.

Remember what DE said? She's supposed to be OFFENSIVE. Does offensive means we should just run to the enemy without any protection, hoping we kill them first without us getting killed? Or offensive should be throwing ourselves into dangerous situation that we know we won't survive from, because we have nothing else to do, and died in the end?

Taking risk is fun. Suicide is not. Those two are different.

 

This is a run-and-gun game..... evade. Dont run in a straight line towards the enemy.

Why are you all so scared? The AI is not as fast as you, the AI reacts to what you do so trick it.

When the situation forces us to the corner, and the only thing we have is a little glimpse of hope to survive, it means we may lose BUT we also may win, and it'll be worth it. It is fun. Like a gamble.

When the situation forces us, and then we tried as hard as we can to survive, but the game doesn't gave us any chances or means to do so, it's not fun. It's like..well..getting #*($%%@ up.

 

All her abilities CC which should give you enough time to run to safety.

Lastly, her CC.

Yes she DOES have CCs on all of her skills. BUT, you want to know what other things have her type of CC?

Every weapons with Hellfire/Heated Charge/Whatever-the-name-of-Shotgun-FireDamage-Mod.

Yeah, the Crowd Controlling factor on Ember is as par as any weapon with fire damage. Hell, I can CC better with an Ogris. Or Ignis.

 

Pretty sure that outside of the rocket launcher and Torid, there isnt a weapons in the game that let's you hit several targets at the same time and CC them all.

 

Comparing her CC to anyone else won't do any justice either, because, let's face it, her CC is too short to even be seen by anyone. No one can feel its effect because of how miniscule her CC is affecting the world around her.

Basically, her CC, albeit exist, is nearly useless.

 

What are you, a tortoise?

How can you not notice the enemies dancing?

 

Also, if you're talking about Rhino, the topic is really..different.

You see, Rhino is always a Tank, and even till now, he still is. Hell, Rhino Stomp is one of the best CC I've ever tried, and the laziest one, too. So, yeah. No, Rhino is still the best fat riot police.

Ember doesn't have the luxury of a big shield and health like Rhino. So...yeah. Comparing her with Rhino is base less.

When we're talking about Ember being fragile, it IS a logical topic. Unlike most Rhino users that you refer, because, clearly.

If they, or you, want to whine about Rhino's IS, whine it to Saryn. She doesn't have the luxury of invulnerability. Then again, no one care, and everyone having fun with her anyway.

 

No, the Rhino discussion is E X A C T L Y the same.

Rhino was a CCer which leaned more on the CC side than damage, but one ability that was out of wack was adopted by players as "the thing he does" which people CONTINUE to say even while DE released a profile video that STILL calls Rhino A CROWD CONTROLLER.

 

So when the ability that was out of whack was taken out people bugged out because he sucked at damage and IS was his thing. He was a CCer.... he wasnt meant to put out massive damage..... doesnt matter people still complained about that. And then when i actually made a point on how he could do damage it didnt matter cause his CC wasn't good enough because, DUN DUN! "Another frame could do it better."

 

You could go back into those post and replace the names with Ember stuff and you could not tell the difference between the old Rhino post and the current Ember ones.

 

It just seems that the is a crowd of people in this game that doesnt understand CCing. It's weird.

Rhino was CCer leaning more on the CC side.... NO! HE'S A TANK!

Ember is a CCer that leans more to the damaging side...... NO! SHE'S A .... REVIVER!?

 

Hell, some of you folks are calling for a fix that involves what was done with Rhino in combining two powers.

Like............... this could NOT be more obvious.

 

[JustNor]

They should make fire ball when activated increase the damage of all fire attacks on primary, secondary and melee. It could be like a 50% increase in fire dmg, or even 100% when maxed and change over heat into a trail of blaze w/ increase in movement when activated since ember isn't a tank. IDK, just an opinion.

[Mak_Gohae]

Actual Post from Rhino first change.

They have been altered to reflect Ember.

 

wow really? they nerfed the one thing that could make EMBER usable? While trinity has infinite energy and not only full invul, but reflects damage? Well.... to throw EMBER to the garbage then :/  Original post

 

 Overheat nerf'd... Ember may now be useless as it's slow as F*** and has no useful damage abilities. toxic ancients around a fallen ally? let him die, he should've been standing on a box. I'll play EMBER a bit and see just how bad this is- but... i expect it's now craptastic- much like TRINITYs 3rd ability that partially mitigates damage but not enough to be of any real use at all. original post

 

EMBER is now a corpse on the ancient infected 100% and Grenier 45+ lvl , EMBER is now the most useless of warframes Because: 1)Very slow ... 2) Weak attack skills 3) Now there is no defense. The most stupid thing that could be done... very sad... Lost interest in the game... Goodbye EMBER...Goodbye Warframe :((((((((( orignial post

 

Soundtack to this post.

[LittleReshiram]

What are you, a tortoise?

No, I'm a 5 feet tall dragon with the power to bend flames at will. Look at my name, $&*^S#&$.

How can you not notice the enemies dancing?

 

Who says I didn't notice the safety dances?

I said that the duration is too short, and overall people won't notice it.

Hell, the dances sure is longer when they got ice damaged FIRST, but overall, unoticeable. And beside people won't realize the enemies got stunned anyway because of its short duration, and the fact fire damage ONLY stun once in a long interval.

No, the Rhino discussion is -blablabla something something details about Rhino-

You know, I don't know about why you kept refering Rhino's thread.

What is it? You lost an argument there? Your suggestions got disregarded and you just wanna get mad at everyone now?

Poor you.

Hell, some of you folks are calling for a fix that involves what was done with Rhino in combining two powers.

Like............... this could NOT be more obvious.

Well, actually, Rhino's power combination is one of the best thing he could get.

Hell, you want a Crowd Controlling Rhino? Like, so bad?

Do you even realize why Rhino got the Iron Skin since day 1? And why his stats are that fat?

Why? Because the developers DID want him to be a Tank, of course!

What? Rhino's supposed to be a CC? Well too bad, because the stats says otherwise, his FIRST skill sets say otherwise, his Warframe Profile says otherwise. Sucks to be you.

You see, IF Radial Blast and the Stomp, or whatever his skills called before, didn't get combined, you know what people will complain about?

"Why Rhino so slow he keeps dying omg" "Omg Rhino is fat but he can't defend himself" "buff plz" "we want Rhino skin back omg"

Of course, this thread MAY look the same, but Ember and Rhino is two completely different frames, with accidentally same defensive skills, with different intentions.

On Rhino, it helps him become the most awchum tank ever. Adding extra health on his already fat health.

On Ember it helps her become more versatile and helpful. Her low armor got covered pretty well for a short duration, and it helps her survive.

You see what will happen if YOUR whines about Rhino going all CC wins? Yeah, see how much damage will ALSO happen post-change?

If you want your own special Rhino. Go make your OWN Warframe: The Game. Or just don't use Iron Skin. Problem solved, masochist.

Secondly, about Ember.

Did you EVER read the first post? I bet you didn't.

You see, Scott himself, the almighty, said that Ember supposed to BE an Offensive frame. OFFENSIVE.

That's why we ASKED for armor-ignoring skills, because it will help her tremendously.

She is "envisioned" to be a HIGH-DAMAGING FRAME.

Is she fragile? We're fine with that. But with today's damage, she's worthless.

That's why we need her damage to be buffed, to compensate her low armor.

Why we ALSO asked for Overheat damage reduction back? Well.

Do you really used Ember, under heavy fire, like, regularly? No. You don't.

I know you SAID you do, but the fact you kept saying people to run around, is either because you never stand to fight for your friends, or you never played at all, in lots of situations, with Ember.

Do you know how weak she is? Her armor, her health?

Do you know how crazy this game's mobbing system is? The AI SURE is dumb, like an ant, but their numbers are massive, like a colony of wasps.

Basically, no matter how fast you go, there'll be always a Fusion, a Distruptor, or a Heavy waiting for you.

Yeah. I bet you don't know about it, huh? Because you never went anywhere near Pluto, of course.

Not always WE got the situation YOU got anyway. So stop yapping about YOUR conditions in general when you're using other frames, and try to jam it on Ember discussion.

Really, go cry about Rhino elsewhere.

If you want to cry about your obesse tanker ship, go. Because it has nothing to with Ember anyway.

[LittleReshiram]

-snip-

Oh my, you even searched, copy pasted, and edit all of those? Just for us?

I personally flattered. <3

What should we feel? Ashamed? Disgusted? Scared at you for some reason?

I personally amused by your undying effort at being a &#036;&amp;*^ to yourself.

Please do more of this, fine sir. Make yourself looks much more stupid as you already are.

Also, should've put CRAWLING IN MY SKIIINN for soundtrack. Why? Angst and agony, of course.

[AlienOvermind]

I forgot to tell, that I have another great suggestion for Ember. While we are on the way back to our roots, Ember's design should be changes back to &#036;&amp;*^girl-frame. It would make sense, since it would only return things to it's original state. Think of this please.

[tmtke]

What if one of the abilities would change into something like overheats the surrounding area (moddable range, timing and power), blowing up ammos, expodable stuff like barrels and box traps etc.? The ability suggests Overheat for its name ofcourse :)

Edited September 11, 2013 by tmtke

[Volume]

I forgot to tell, that I have another great suggestion for Ember. While we are on the way back to our roots, Ember's design should be changes back to &#036;&amp;*^girl-frame. It would make sense,

since it would only return things to it's original state. Think of this please.

 

I miss the overalls.

[Taihus]

I recall a conversation I had with a fellow designer while he was making character classes for a pen & paper RPG system. He said that the key to making fun abilities is to create a system and world which has many fundamental rules and limitations, around which everything is balanced and centered, and then design the ability to bend or break one of those rules.

 

As an example, one of the most memorable classes he created specialized in contributing to combat after falling unconscious. It broke the rule that being knocked out removed a character from play.

 

Many warframe abilities also follow this philosophy, whether intentional or not.

 

Sometimes the rules they break are large and obvious. For example:

- Frost's Snow Globe and Volt's Electric Shield, which break a key rule, "If thy bullets may reach thine enemies, thine enemies' bullets may reach thee."

- Several of Vauban's abilities break the rule, "Thou shalt not control thine enemies' movements."

- Many abilities belonging to many warframes break the rule, "Thou cannot traverse the distance between two points without using thy legs."

- As well as, "If thou stands openly in front of thine enemy, thine enemy will surely attack thee."

- Mag's Bullet Attractor breaks the rather cardinal rule of shooters, "Thou must aim at thy enemy to inflict damage with thy weapons." (as a note, this is also one of several rules broken by the Ogris, which is part of why that weapon is a nightmare from a balance perspective)

 

Sometimes the rules are small and subtle, such as Banshee's Sonar, which breaks the rules, "Thou shalt not see the enemy without observing them directly." and, "Thine enemies' weak points are determined by the nature and type of the enemy."

 

Ember's abilities lose much of their charm because they all break only a single rule of Warframe, which is the same rule broken by at least one ability belonging to every other frame, as well as several weapons (including the Ogris again). That rule, of course, being, "Thou may only damage one of thine enemies at a time."

 

Generally speaking, the more important and central to play a rule is, the more fun it is to break. The key is to make sure that the rule is broken in a way which is more interesting than damaging to the play experience, which is where the design legwork comes in. The designer in question firmly believed that every single class needed to be able to break at least one rule which no other class could. This simple guideline instantly made each and every class feel unique and incomparable to any other, with all other abilities and options simply being used to round out the concepts and add depth. I liked the approach, and often use it myself.

 

Just serving some food for thought.

 

EDIT: Proofreading. Also, I apologize for what I'm sure are many misuses of exotic English. I'm only fluent in the modern sort, but I find it helps both presentation and thought process to phrase the rules in a quirky manner. Makes them more memorable. It's another thing I picked up from that same designer.

Guys, this person's onto something good. Voice of reason and intelligence, and the conversation just flows right around it.

[Xanarxses]

DE doesn't know where what goes. Not only do they not know, they don't look at the community for direction. They just go against everyone's wish all the time. Now I haven't played this game for very long. Little over a hundred hours. But Ember's abilities, are garbage. Even at low levels, they are not worth using. Using an unranked weapon is more effective than her abilities.

 

Ember is an interesting frame, because everything about her is contradictory. Her stats say she's a squishy mage type. Her look says she's a battle mage. Her abilities actually support the battle mage idea because you have to go up close and personal to use any ability.

 

I would actually prefer if they made her something of a Fire Warrior. Give her medium armor. Like 50, maybe a little more. Boost up her shield and health. I don't really like glass cannons.

 

Instead of fireball make it like flame hands or something. She would shoot fire out of her hands at a 90 degree or so cone. Stunning all caught in the fire.

 

OR

 

Make the fireball an actual fireball. Not a fire pebble. If you've ever played videogames with magic, you'd know what a fireball is. A fireball that creates an actual explosion. AOE.

 

Make overheat actually useful, a damage boost for every player AND give every player a fire damage bonus for all their weapons and during the duration of the overheat, energy is restored to Ember with each enemy killed.

 

Fireblast, have it work like Frost's snowglobe in a sense. Upon casting it would ragdoll all enemies in the vicinity away from Ember (physics impact damage) and create a sizable circle that would give damage reduction to all the players in the circle and all enemies that enter it would receive fire damage that staggers them for each hit and each hit would happen every 3 seconds or so.

 

I don't know about world on fire as I've never touched it but for another ability... have her cast the ability and have it create a large circle around her. That moves with her. There would be 5 fire spirits or whatever and each one attacks enemies once and comes back to ember to charge her primary weapon with a special fire effect that would do splash damage upon hit and it would stun the target hit and stagger all those hit by the splash effect. The amount of charges depends on how many hits the fire spirits have dealt to enemies. With each hit, they charge her weapon once. The spirits will have no limit to how many times they can hit enemies, the only thing limiting them will be the duration of the ability itself.

 

And have all these abilities ignore fire resistance. These are god damn abilities. There shouldn't be any resisting.

 

Damn... this is actually kind of overpowered if these abilities scaled properly. But oh well. Nova needs someone to put her in her place.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

Fix overheat

[Coca-Cola_Addict]

Im looking for a good review of Embers pros and cons because Im building her as we speak, but judging by the highly emotional post in here im in the wrong place...

[Xanarxses]

Im looking for a good review of Embers pros and cons because Im building her as we speak, but judging by the highly emotional post in here im in the wrong place...

 Hey man. Ember only has cons really at this point. You'd be better off putting her in a shelf and only touch her again if the DE grows a brain and actually starts listening to the community. I have her. Fully ranked. Gladly I'm not one of the poor bastards that forma'd and potato'd her. And she's one of the most appealing warframes in terms of looks, too bad she got the S#&amp;&#036; end of the stick with everything else.

So don't bother for now. At this point it's only for people that like her, just because. Like me.

[Kinethia]

Im looking for a good review of Embers pros and cons because Im building her as we speak, but judging by the highly emotional post in here im in the wrong place...

 

Pros:

Stylish.

Classy.

Rambunctious.

Playful.

Enthusiastic.

Perfect pitch.

Hard working.

Fabulous dancer.

Good table manners.

Australian accent.

 

Cons:

Stats.

Powers.

 

n.~

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia