Redesigning Saryn

[Dociel]

Hello guys, here is a topic about redesigning Saryn.

First of all, I would like you guys to know that I am new to the game. I bought Saryn to replace a lvl 9 Loki on the go, because of how her playstyle appears to be: enjoyable and deadly. Which is, unfortunately, not that enjoyable.

But the good thing in being new to the game is also that I will hopefully bring some fresh air into it. I got her while having a certain idea of how I would play her, and still now don't see me playing her a different way. This got me to think about redesigning her skill kit to make her more consistent to the role I give her.

I hope veterans will give me their feedbacks and help on this, as they know much better the game than I do. And maybe one day, we could bring a brand new Saryn to the game, who knows ?

So, let's get started.

Saryn classic

To start with, a little feedback of my experience playing Saryn:

Base stats:

Seems good to me.

- She's tanky and not THAT slow. Which is good, because as a new player, I have this tendency to just throw myself into the melee, unconscious of the threat. It has resulted in some deaths of course in the beggining, some nice escapes, and most of the time, I just get them all. Nothing more to say at this point. But in later stages and levels of the game, being tanky also give you the role of taking care of the aggro, or at least part of it. Keep that in mind, as it will be important in the following.

Skills:

Allright, here we are: the spiky topic for every Saryn player (as I've read on the forums so far).

- Venom: I just don't use it. I don't see the point in launching it on a target (in the middle of a crowd), and then trying to hit the orb (as big as it can be), crossing my fingers it will explode, spreading the plague to other enemies (and if possible, killing them at the same time). The thing is, most of the time, you just don't have the time to do so (casting, aiming, waiting for the venom to deal its DoT). So what I do is I take my gun, unload it as much as possible before the crowd close down on me, and then go on melee kills. I save my energy for other skills, really.

- Molt: it is basically the escape use of a classic decoy. You cast, you run. Period. As I've experienced so far, and it seems to be the case on higher levels as well, it does not last long on the battlefield. Which means it is restricted to doing just that: an escape decoy.

- Contagion: this skill just brought pure joy to me when I read the description. I was dreaming about a deadly Saryn slashing through legions of ennemies while poisoning them; then turning around and looking at them melting in their own blood. Truth are, it is not as deadly as it could be. It is not about the DPS it does, it is about Saryn capability to deal with melee in the middle of a crowd (it may be because I haven't the good weapon, or my personal skills, or something like this, but as I read, the higher the level, the more difficult melee become anyway). I will come back on this point too. So contagion is cool and good, but only good.

- Miasma: my favorite. Maybe the only useful Saryn skill in her skill set. You dive in, you cast. End of the fight. At least for low/mid levels. Always good to take anyway. But still, playing a warframe using close to only one skill (which is close to what I came to now) is a saddening game experience.

So, after playing with Saryn on multiple missions, encountering different ennemies, getting my way through a lot of different situations, I came to think about (or rethink), not my way of seeing her being played, but the way her skill kit could be changed to make it up to it.

A New Saryn

The way I see it, Saryn having strong shield/armor/health base stats, her focus should be on a melee gameplay. She also has a skill kit created to deal damage. No real CC, no real debuff. This makes me come to think of her as an offensive melee bruiser. She can take the heat, but not for too long as it's not her primary role. Her main damage stream is based on melee attacks, so they should be easily performed. I would have said "regardless of the weapon", but I come to think of her as a swift melee too. Which means having the ability to deal a lot of small attacks on one or different targets rather than one big swing or charged attacks (which is Rhino's attribute I think).

Having these things in mind, I tried to come up with a slighlty different skill kit for Saryn, which I hope will lead to some improvement in her actually quite "uncongruent and broken" gameplay.

- Venom: still unsure about what we could do with it after all I've read. But I would of course keep the poisonous DoT. What I thought about, rather than a one-target cast and fire-in-the-ball triggering effect, was casting a few meters cone shaped cloud (or blow) in front of the caster, in which every enemies would get poisoned. Keeping it simple and stupid maybe, but reliable.

optionnal: adding a slow/blind effect to it for a little CC rather than pure damage.

- Molt: we stick to the snake skin idea, but go deeper with it. Molt becomes a "twice triggered" cast, which means the first tapped key will trigger the first effect, and second tap on the key will trigger the second.

The first effect would be a buff called "snake skin/snake form/whatever the name", and would give Saryn a lower chance to get knocked down / blocked in her melee frenzy while giving her a smaller collision factor (if I can call it that way), which means she could more easily slash and snake through a crowd of ennemies, even with melee weapons that do not keep ennemies from approaching too close.

The second effect would be released at the end of the buff (like 5 second after the first cast for example), or upon pressing the skill key a second time for a faster use, and would be our known "molt" skill.

I think this two sided skill would be just awesome in term of game dynamics, sticking greatly to Saryn's warframe spirit while really enhancing her melee and team role.

- Contagion: we keep it the way it is. We will only enhanced it's overall damage output by changing molt and (incoming) miasma.

- Miasma: I know that nobody will want to nerf its damage output as it is currently the only great damage dealer skill Saryn has. But stop crying and start projecting yourself in the new Saryn I present you now. Thing would work different, because not only miasma but the other skills will be different. Keep that in mind. :)

So, we keep the AoE effect. But rather than making a big "poison-nova-boom-in-your-face" skill, I would like to bring some new CC into it.

In fact, for the roleplay part of it, this nova is roughly attacking directly the flesh of every nearby units. Right ? So, I imagine it more like a kind of acidic chemical nova. Which means: it attacks directly everything it touches, a bit like alien blood.

So what the new miasma would do ? I will tell you: a direct attack to armor and flesh. Translated in gameplay: a (permanent ?) debuff of armor for every nearby units as well as a direct damage dealt to their health. Which means it would do great VS flesh enemies, and okay VS synthetics, while having some potential for other situations (VS any heavy armored).

That's it for the new skills, let's see now how they work together.

The way I see it turning into gameplay

To start with, Venom will allow you to quickly take care of small enemy crowds, or add some DPS to bigger targets, while not f***ing up your whole game flow.

But, unlucky you, you got surrounded by enemies. So you cast Snakeskin (or Molt part 1) and Contagion, and start slicing down and poisoning to death everything you touch, while not getting stupidly stunted or stopped by the first Kirby arround. Still, for some reason, it is not enough, the enemy's pressure is too heavy. So you cast Molt (Molt part 2), and get away while the remaining monsters jump on your escape decoy, trying to unload everything you can along the way.

Another time now, you got a stronger crowd you've got to take care of with your teammates. So you approach the crowd, cast Venom to reach as many enemies as you can, then cast Snakeskin and Contagion, dive in, cast Miasma in the middle of it to lower armor and health as much as you can, and slaughter all you desire. Then, you Molt and get away before taking too much damages.

Conclusion

This is what I call an offensive melee bruiser. And this is how I hope Saryn will shine in the near future. So now, I wait for your feedbacks Saryn's lovers !

Cheers.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dociel

[_Absolom_]

and here again another thread about saryn

Did you read it wholly? I think there are SOME great ideas there.

[Hybridon]

Not to be rude, but you said you are new... shouldnt you play more, experience more before asking for changes to the Queen of Poison?

 

The only idea I like is Molt, other than that Venom is good when you learn its potential, Molt does the job well and isnt just and escape mechanic, you just need to learn how to combo it with the right weapons.

 

Contagion adds up to 60% melee damage, and Miasma is already deadly, the ability that used to be cryed out for a nerf before Nova came out...

[Dociel]

Did you read it wholly? I think there are SOME great ideas there.

 

Dociel - Redesigning Saryn - Posted Today, 02:29 PM

 

Seira-EGT- - "and here again another thread about saryn" - Posted Today, 02:31 PM

Non offense taken.

 

[Anunymau5]

Upvoted because genius mate!

[rksk16it]

...

So what the new miasma would do ? I will tell you: a direct attack to armor and flesh. Translated in gameplay: a (permanent ?) debuff of armor for every nearby units as well as a direct damage dealt to their health. Which means it would do great VS flesh enemies, and okay VS synthetics, while having some potential for other situations (VS any heavy armored).

...

 

Not happening. Their new frame has a similar skill.

 

 

Not to be rude, but you said you are new... shouldnt you play more, experience more before asking for changes to the Queen of Poison?

 

Saryn is as much of a *queen of poison* as Volt is *king of electricity* :)

[lronPatriot]

Did you read it wholly? I think there are SOME great ideas there.

 

Isn't our community the best?

[tigrex]

Venom needs a buff and contagnation a rework thats all and we dont need a 'new saryn'

[Mainabi]

Did you read it wholly? I think there are SOME great ideas there.

that's not the point we have other saryn threads, also more active threads, instead posting his ideas to that thread he made a new one, using search button would be nice ;)

[Dociel]

Not to be rude, but you said you are new... shouldnt you play more, experience more before asking for changes to the Queen of Poison?

 

This is the sort of feedback I am looking for, because I don't know it all. Thanks mate, because you are right, I do not master Saryn.

 

 

Venom is good when you learn its potential

 

I am not saying otherwise (even if I've kind of read so in the recent topics about it), I am saying that the way I see it, it is not congruent with the rest of the skill kit. A close range cast, with no other triggering effect, leave your mind free to take care of your melee combos. This is the idea behind its redesigning.

 

Still, you could leave Venom the way it is, and trigger it using melee attacks. The result would not be that different anyway.

 

 

Contagion adds up to 60% melee damage

 

Another good reason to keep it the way it is. :)

 

 

Miasma is already deadly, the ability that used to be cryed out for a nerf before Nova came out...

 

That is what I am saying. It is deadly. But how useful for teamplay ? I mean, it's like close to every warframe got at least one skill making them useful to other teammates (I know, there ARE exceptions). Still, turning miasma into a massive debuff would have interesting sides in higher levels, doesn't it ?

 

 

Molt does the job well and isnt just and escape mechanic, you just need to learn how to combo it with the right weapons.

 

For this one on the other hand, you will have to explain a little more. Because a really see no way you could combo with that one.

[Dociel]

that's not the point we have other saryn threads, also more active threads, instead posting his ideas to that thread he made a new one, using search button would be nice ;)

 

I may have overlooked these (at least the ones treating about Saryn as a whole, and not only focusing on Venom and alikes). My appologies if it is the case.

Next topic: redesigning the forum search tool. x)

[Mainabi]

I may have overlooked these (at least the ones treating about Saryn as a whole, and not only focusing on Venom and alikes). My appologies if it is the case.

Next topic: redesigning the forum search tool. x)

nP

 

a good about redesign/fix/and small changes thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102658-suggestions-for-getting-saryn-back-on-the-front-line/

 

a complete redesign might be too much since it would change her feel to much, I like the idea of moult and venom, also like the idea on contagion (note: just the idea behind it)

 

 

there are other saryn threads but that's probably the most active right now

[Hybridon]

This is the sort of feedback I am looking for, because I don't know it all. Thanks mate, because you are right, I do not master Saryn.

 

 

 

I am not saying otherwise (even if I've kind of read so in the recent topics about it), I am saying that the way I see it, it is not congruent with the rest of the skill kit. A close range cast, with no other triggering effect, leave your mind free to take care of your melee combos. This is the idea behind its redesigning.

 

Still, you could leave Venom the way it is, and trigger it using melee attacks. The result would not be that different anyway.

 

 

 

Another good reason to keep it the way it is. :)

 

 

 

That is what I am saying. It is deadly. But how useful for teamplay ? I mean, it's like close to every warframe got at least one skill making them useful to other teammates (I know, there ARE exceptions). Still, turning miasma into a massive debuff would have interesting sides in higher levels, doesn't it ?

 

 

 

For this one on the other hand, you will have to explain a little more. Because a really see no way you could combo with that one.

 

To sum it up, Miasma deals DOT, on low levels it obliterates the enemies into goo, on higher leveled enemies it works as a partial stun as it ticks, giving you time to reposition yourself in the battlefield, take down the biggest threat or save a buddies &#!.

 

If it gets more CC, you will have to take damage from it, and that would kill the whole DPS theme she has. I prefer other frames get more CC, keeping Saryn in this role that she compliments well, by being able to tank well (she has the highest health and 3rd best armor, only losing to Frost and Rhino, thus why she lacks a bit of shields, easily dealt with under the right build)

 

Her Venom isnt that of a big deal on lower levels, but on higher levels it scales very well, and makes it one of the only #1 that scale up, most start losing effect as they are a one trick pony.

 

Molt can be used to lure enemies (mostly infested) where you want them, along with Ogris/Torid, or other CC abilities (warframes) or weapons (Gorgon/Supra and others with the right build) you can easily use Molt in a good way, but again, I like the proposal of 2 fases. One that gives you a skin (like iron skin, yet with other effects) and that you can drop (if it wasnt obliterated) as a decoy.

 

My change to Saryn would be reduce Contagion to 40-50% and make it affect the team in a certain radius, the same way Roar does. That would be a good thing. :)

 

@rksk16it - I prefer to ignore you, Volt is the King of Electricity, just because he is underpowered on certain situations, doesnt mean he doesnt fit his theme. Saryn on the other hand IS the queen of poison and does that with extreme reliability, high DPS, and fits in perfectly in any squad when a person knows how to use her. Thats what I like the most on her, she is truly somebody that relies on skill to make all abilities not situational and yes a must, but then we would be entering another level of discussion that does not concern this thread.

[rksk16it]

The only idea I like is Molt, other than that Venom is good when you learn its potential, Molt does the job well and isnt just and escape mechanic, you just need to learn how to combo it with the right weapons.

 

Contagion adds up to 60% melee damage, and Miasma is already deadly, the ability that used to be cryed out for a nerf before Nova came out...

 

This the reason why you should NOT play Saryn for optimal setups (for fun, anything is OK).

 

Just get Rhino, and play him.

 

Venom vs Charge :

Charge brings dmg, mobility AND cc. Venom just brings dmg, and that too spread over a long duration of around 20 seconds, rather than burst, though total dmg is more than Charge.

 

Iron Skin vs Molt :

Do I even need to say anything here ?

 

Contagion vs Roar :

Contagion brings 60% extra dmg to Saryn's melee. Roar brings 50% extra dmg to melee, guns and abilities of Rhino AND every1 else in team.

 

Miasma vs Stomp :

Stomp has more dmg (with Roar), more range, longer CC with same mana cost.

[Mainabi]

My change to Saryn would be reduce Contagion to 40-50% and make it affect the team in a certain radius, the same way Roar does. That would be a good thing. :)

 

 

roar increases the overal gun dmg by 50% I think

contagion only adds extra ~100% elemental dmg (with max focus I think)

 

people won't go into melee with that buff, people will keep shooting and roar is a nice bonus but for melee people won't randomly go into melee, sometimes but they won't focus on melee, even with volt, I've yet to seen someone going into melee because of that speedbuff (that speedbuff would be way better than contagion aoe buff since it increases the overall dmg by 50% also it makes you move faster = repoistion yourself better)

[rksk16it]

@rksk16it - I prefer to ignore you, Volt is the King of Electricity, just because he is underpowered on certain situations, doesnt mean he doesnt fit his theme. Saryn on the other hand IS the queen of poison and does that with extreme reliability, high DPS, and fits in perfectly in any squad when a person knows how to use her. Thats what I like the most on her, she is truly somebody that relies on skill to make all abilities not situational and yes a must, but then we would be entering another level of discussion that does not concern this thread.

 

I was posting for OP to read my post since he is new, if he is going to play Saryn, he should be told how good/bad she is compared to other frames.

 

Next time you want to ignore me, just dont address me.

[Mainabi]

Next time you want to ignore me, just dont address me.

no that's not how you ignore people you have to tell them that you're ignoring them how would they know you're ignoring them?

[rksk16it]

no that's not how you ignore people you have to tell them that you're ignoring them how would they know you're ignoring them?

 

Ehh.. if you are ignoring some1, do you really care if they know it or not .. ?? Anyways not the topic of this thread so I wont discuss on it.

[TheCometCE]

I read through this and honestly, I think Saryn is fine as she is.

 

The only thing I would change is make her venom poppable with melee, so there's an incentive to pop contagion (which btw, is a MASSIVE damage boost with focus on) and beat some face :)

[MrCranky_BR]

Aye, Molt and Contagion need a lot of work. Cool idea on Molt there...

 

But Venom... man, you must be really new. Before the latest nerf, Venom was one of the most powerful skills in the game. I actually find hilarious that the thing was nerfed to hell because it could escalate to the point of causing hardware malfunctions...

 

As for Venom, all I want is to see it restored to it's former glory...preferably without the tech issues. It was one of the most rewarding skills in the entire game, because it demanded more than a simple button push, and the payoff for putting in the extra effort was extraordinary.

[Dociel]

The only interesting way to make comparison is rather to gauge if the skills we talk about are approximately "equivalent" to other warframes's. That being said, there is no point in debating rather one skill deals more damage than another, as you would have to take into consideration the overall skillset, bases stats, situations and enemies as well. Good luck with that. x)

 

I am really not interested in comparing Saryn with other frames. I am interested in bringing some new ideas on the table and discuss about it, see if we could ask for implementing something alike to the game developpers.

 

I mean, there must be some test server somewhere where developpers could try this kind of new skill sets, and maybe even ask to Warframe veteran players what they think about it. At least, that would make things move a little, and add some concreteness to what the community can bring to the game.

[Dociel]

But Venom... man, you must be really new. Before the latest nerf, Venom was one of the most powerful skills in the game. I actually find hilarious that the thing was nerfed to hell because it could escalate to the point of causing hardware malfunctions...

 

As for Venom, all I want is to see it restored to it's former glory...preferably without the tech issues. It was one of the most rewarding skills in the entire game, because it demanded more than a simple button push, and the payoff for putting in the extra effort was extraordinary.

 

That's what I've read too. And you may be right about the rewarding side of mastering the skill. But as you said, I am really new, and I wasn't there to see the glory part of it. Only now, I am enjoying its withering. :/

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dociel

[Mainabi]

moult lasted infinite once, once... you had to experience how awesome moult was

[Hybridon]

This the reason why you should NOT play Saryn for optimal setups (for fun, anything is OK).

 

Just get Rhino, and play him.

 

Venom vs Charge :

Charge brings dmg, mobility AND cc. Venom just brings dmg, and that too spread over a long duration of around 20 seconds, rather than burst, though total dmg is more than Charge.

 

Iron Skin vs Molt :

Do I even need to say anything here ?

 

Contagion vs Roar :

Contagion brings 60% extra dmg to Saryn's melee. Roar brings 50% extra dmg to melee, guns and abilities of Rhino AND every1 else in team.

 

Miasma vs Stomp :

Stomp has more dmg (with Roar), more range, longer CC with same mana cost.

 

First of all, Miasma does more damage. Oh but he can Roar and then do more damage... Then you are spending 175 energy to do more damage, if i do a second Miasma Ill beat you up again, wont I? :)

 

Iron Skin is good, yes, but then again, what are we comparing a decoy to a damage cap ability?

 

Decoy gives you time to escape, or can be a well placed trap, while iron skin gives you a damage cap + stagger, knockdown etc imunity. Once you go high enough both are one shotted and dont mean crap.

 

Contagion is lackluster towards Roar, thats why Id change it. My idea may not have been the best, but you get the overall idea that Im in agreement it needs a change.

 

Venom and Charge again arent comparable. Charge loses damage as level goes higher because of armor, Venom doesnt. Venom scales on and on, and as long as you can pop the bubble, its going to do damage, while charge will be a tickle at a certain point. Venom is for situations where you are defending, while Charge is the opposite, thus why it is a good mobility ability. You are trying to compare an orange to an apple here.

 

Again, Saryn is the Queen of Poison and does her job perfectly, that is deliver DPS.

 

Rhino became a good CC/Tank/Support Frame, he does all the roles, lacks a bit on the tanking side when achieveing higher levels, while Saryn is the person that jumps in for destruction.

 

Compare Saryn to somebody that does the same role, that is to dleiver DPS. Ember and Nova come to mind atm. And make an overall comparison then, not just this does more damage so its better lulz. Go more into depth, thats why I said id ignore you, because you HAD no use of arguments, just plain said I was wrong without caring to explain why.

[Estred]

Saryn is as much of a *queen of poison* as Volt is *king of electricity* :)

 

Venom is fun, however if they revert the Spreading back to original target the open up the Memory Leak issue again. There is a good thread idea towards having spores combine into more powerful versions. Perhaps another way to fix it would be to make the actual noxious detonation of Venom's Spores dealing more damage, so it's a spreading bomb.

 

Contagion will be "meh" so long as Melee is "meh" it's just how it works becasue it's a Melee Buff. IF they made Contagion work like Roar but only for Sayrn. Maybe all the way up to a short-duration of Double Damage anywhere from 5-20 seconds or something (that is with Continuity to get to 20 I would assume).

 

Molt dies way to fast to be much of a diversion at higher levels. I would prefer it being Timed and having a shorter duration than originally. Short of that it needs some big time defense buffs to last longer than 1-2 seconds which is enough for every enemy to shoot once and have it die.

 

Miasma, it's Miasma... it's fun but really it's a CC skill with harsh damage. I have no qualms with it. It's good damage which keeps the focus away from her other lackluster skills.