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MdzKnight

Conclave-only Warframe

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Considering the current number of Warframes right now, I'd imagine it must be getting rather hard/exhausting (if it isn't already) to keep having to tweak the Warframes for PvP whenever one comes out.

Personally, I honestly think it's wasted effort. Rebalancing a Warframe's kit to behave differently from it's PvE counterpart can create friction between how some Warframes can feel when switching between the two modes, to some people it may even feel like it's a nerf, others may not be so thrilled that a certain PvE meta doesn't work in PvP. Whatever the case, the power shifts that come from moving from PvE to PvP I think, is very likely to induce a bad vibe. Some may get over it, some don't.

To move to the main point, I would like to suggest that we keep the mainline warframes out of pvp, and develop a new Warframe (or set of Warframes) that is specifically tailored for PvP play.

Why another Warframe?

  • It'll be easier to manage in the long run...
    • Let's face it, PvE and PvP are actually completely different beasts when it comes to this game. PvE is all about the power fantasy where you can take down hordes of enemies without having to pause if you managed a proper build, while PvP is all about a very particular balancing act where you have to make sure that everyone who dips their hand in can have a chance of fighting back properly so both sides can have a good time. PvE can get you into a zen-like state where the AI enemies can be defeated without the pressures of competitive play, while PvP keeps you on your toes and forces you to earn your fun by mastering mechanics to keep getting the upper hand against other players.
    • A new Warframe will help segregade these two opposing aspects neatly. PvP Warframes can be designed to have hidden nuances in their power systems, they don't need to have an ability that has to be viable in PvE space (notice how most of the current Warframes have room clearing abilities, for example). The need to rebalance Warframes for PvP can be removed as the PvP balancing team (is there such a team? I'm not sure tbh) will only have to watch the PvP roster instead. And the PvE team can go nuts with their WF ideas knowing that they won't have to hold back on the possibility that a certain kit "might be broken in PvP". Which leads to the next point:

 

  • PvP Warframes can totally break off from traditional Warframe design...
    • This is one point of which I'm totally hopeful, I like how the most recently introduced Warframes have a unique way of managing their resources (Baruuk's Restraint, Garuda's Health, Hildryn's Shields) and this can be used to help balance the new PvP Warframes. In order to make sure to avoid the "one-build trumps all" approach (something even other competitive games sometimes fail to accomplish), unique mechanics can be introduced to help facilitate a negative feedback loop to make sure that not one player or group is dominating too much and gives chance for other players to keep up. 
      • One example I can think off, is you can put "regenerating charges" on bullet jumps. Yes, this will severely limit your ability to keep dodging - but whenever you're out of bullet jump charges your main weapon's attack power is greatly increased (Yep it's a movement adjustment suggestion, don't bite me). You could still play in such a way that you never fully expend your charges, though this way you don't get to use the damage buff. So there's a risk-and-reward going on in there.
      • You could also make it so having all bullet jump charges intact allows you to maintain a stealth buff (become a little faded/transparent) so players who like sniping and don't want to jump around can play the viable strategy of looking for a corner to hide in while sniping others. Still can get hit by AoE though.
      • You could implement a passive where near-death warframes gain a one-time use ground slam that can kill everybody else in one hit (others might hate this idea, but I'm typing this with a smile on my face, imagineeee~), it also helps that melee 3.0 made ground slams easier to use.
      • Maybe also a passive where every walljump adds energy / restores bullet jump charges to encourage players to vary their movement?
    • Weapons, like the Warframes, can also have a pvp-only variant. This may or may not come with a unique skins, but what's important is that not every single weapon has to be copied over from PvE. Think of it this way: Having an assorted number of miniguns helps with the feel of progression as the next guns hit harder and they start to look cooler/more blingy, but in PvP? All everybody cares about is whether you are using a minigun or not because it's important in PvP to be able to distinguish what your opponent's options are in an instant. So having access to all PvE weapons is a no go, it's just going to be visual clutter. Maybe just add the most standard type from each weapon class?
    • Conclave mods may have to be reworked. If I'd have it my way I'd prefer to have no weapon mods at all. Let every single gun and melee weapon available perform what's expected of that weapon type (machineguns have automatic fire but has chip damage, bows hit silent but hard, swords have short but wide swings, daggers have even shorter but faster swings, hammer-types has long wind up/delayed jumps but has highly-damaging slams, elementals have status effects but have longer swing recovery, etc). Relegate the mods only to the Warframe itself so you can switch around the behavior of passives like the ones I mentioned under the first bullet, with strategically applied polarities to limit gamebreaking setups, and no, you mustn't be able to forma this limitation off.
    • The usual PvP roles (dps, tank, support) common in competitive team games could be more pronounced in this type of game mode, since in PvE it's usually "build something that can beat everything" which is possible with the insane options that you have in PvE. This miiiiiiiight make it a little bit like Overwatch or Team Fortress, but why not? DE has certainly expressed the capacity in coming up with interesting abilities, why not use it here, do it the space-ninja way? Seems like a lost opportunity.

 

  • Not too crucial: This new Warframe could be used new content/story purposes?
    • This is a rogue Warframe who only goes after other rogue Warframe. A "hunter of it's kind" if you will. Can be used as a foundation of stories, quests that can be used as tutorials to help players ease-in to PvP.
    • Can be linked to the Stalker as it's anti-hero counterpart. It may even have an entirely different relationship with the Tenno who owns it.
    • Since PvP warframes are, in essence, implicitly designed to have a power ceiling, one could make a set of pvp-related challenges / missions where players can't use their entire PvE loadout and instead have to rely on their mastery of the more grounded PvP mechanics to beat.

 

Other stuff:

  • If I am to pitch-in how this Warframe looks, I'd like this Warframe to have access to both male/female versions for it's skin (so pvp isn't always dudes).
  • The parts that show energy color (which is also team color) should be more prominent, to help with visibility.
  • I'd also like it if we can have an ability where you can grab someone and slam them to the ground leaving them vulnerable to for further punishment (taking a page from another game).
  • We can also have abilities similar to the ones from the PvE warframes and combine them to create some interesting PvP kits, like for example:
    • Valkyr's RipLine + Nezha's Chakram + Zephyr's TailWind + Revenant's Reave = Mobility oriented, energy-hungry warframe who keeps track of walls and open spaces to move about.
    • Vauban's Tesla + Vauban's Minelayer + Octavia's Resonator + Volt's Electric Shield = Batman, with lots of ways to disrupt with the environment with hazards.
    • (Anything goes really...)
  • If you think this is a bad idea, that's fine, know that I ultimately don't have any power whatsoever in getting this implemented. As we have all observed, this idea can be easily ignored and Conclave stays in it's current state forever, I just felt a strong need to share this.
  • I previously had a suggestion that involved letting players move about the Orbiter while waiting for a match, too lazy to find the link. I think it can be use in conjunction with this idea. Maybe I'll look for it later.
  • Thanks for reading.

 

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9 hours ago, MdzKnight said:

Considering the current number of Warframes right now, I'd imagine it must be getting rather hard/exhausting (if it isn't already) to keep having to tweak the Warframes for PvP whenever one comes out.

I doubt anyone at DE is "exhausted" by tweaking new Warframes for PvP.
Mostly because it's not happening.

Side note: you seem to think that every frame has to be balanced independently against every other frame.
That's not true - new frames can be simply balanced against the average frame.

9 hours ago, MdzKnight said:

1. Rebalancing a Warframe to behave differently from PvE can create friction between how some Warframes feel when switching between the modes
2. some people it may even feel like it's a nerf
3. others may not be so thrilled that a certain PvE meta doesn't work in PvP
4. the power shifts that come from moving from PvE to PvP I think, is very likely to induce a bad vibe. Some may get over it, some don't.

1. Consistency between PvE and PvP performance is a good thing to preserve when possible, but should never interfere with balancing. And sometimes it's just not possible to preserve ability behavior. How would you faithfully replicate Mind Control or Shadows of the Dead in Conclave? How would you make PvE Decoy relevant? How would you make PvE Bastille not-broken?

2. ... Pretty sure everyone would consider it a nerf. (What crap mods are you putting on your PvE loadouts such that transitioning to PvP makes your abilities stronger?) But that's a good thing, otherwise PvP would be dominated by immortal frames and single-button-map-nuke frames, and the resulting gameplay would be shallow and uninteresting.

3. I'm thrilled that PvE metas don't work in Conclave. PvE's abject lack of balancing has no place in a competitive environment.

4. I don't think any reasonable person has trouble getting over the obviously-necessary adjustments that some abilities undergo for PvP.

9 hours ago, MdzKnight said:

I would like to suggest that we keep the mainline warframes out of pvp, and develop a new Warframe (or set of Warframes) that is specifically tailored for PvP play.

Seems the remainder of your post just elaborates on this idea of having new frames designed specifically for Conclave.
I'm not personally opposed, but aren't you concerned that - if anything - an entirely new frame that doesn't even exist in PvE would cause the most "friction" and the worst "bad vibe"?

9 hours ago, MdzKnight said:

The usual PvP roles (dps, tank, support) could be more pronounced in this type of game mode, since in PvE it's usually "build something that can beat everything"

What? I wasn't gonna respond in detail to the remainder of your post, but you've got it backwards here.
Roles are definitely more defined in PvE. Have you ever run Tridolon? There's a strict role for a one-shot-them-limbs frame, a strict role for a survive-the-lightshow frame, and a strict role for some intern to fetch the lures. In Conclave, the muted significance of abilities means that a person's playstyle can be defined by so much more than their choice of frame.

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2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Side note: you seem to think that every frame has to be balanced independently against every other frame.
That's not true - new frames can be simply balanced against the average frame.

Now that you mention it, that's pretty much what how I thought it was. I guess I was subconsciously comparing it to competitive team games like dota, where every tweak made to one aspect of the game (like individual heroes) reverbs to other parts of it like a symphony that should be kept in tune all the time, and if they're just balancing it against the image of an average frame, then I can see it is a lot more manageable.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

2. ... Pretty sure everyone would consider it a nerf. (What crap mods are you putting on your PvE loadouts such that transitioning to PvP makes your abilities stronger?) But that's a good thing, otherwise PvP would be dominated by immortal frames and single-button-map-nuke frames, and the resulting gameplay would be shallow and uninteresting. 

I meant it the other way around. People coming in from PvE might notice that the PvP versions of warframe abilities are nerfed in some cases (understandbly so). Personally I don't mind it myself, and you just pointed out good examples why these discrepancies are necessary...

... oh I get it, I think you're misunderstanding my intentions. From the way you responded to me, I take it that you thought I'm defending why players might prefer PvE over PvP. It's actually the opposite, I posting all this because I want to help Conclave to succeed, and all these bullet points that I shared are things that I speculated to be minor-but-still-potential pain points as to why most of the PvE crowd avoid it. I may easily be wrong of course, but it's not like we can just ask someone here who played Conclave before but didn't like it to muster the energy to contribute.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

3. I'm thrilled that PvE metas don't work in Conclave. PvE's abject lack of balancing has no place in a competitive environment.

I don't disagree at all. But again, it's a possible detriment.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

4. I don't think any reasonable person has trouble getting over the obviously-necessary adjustments that some abilities undergo for PvP.

Well, sadly I've personally seen cases where players are disappointed in how different some abilities behave, especially drastic ones. Just from the top of my head I can recall a player I invited to Conclave before that he's disappointed that Mag's 4th ability doesn't hold players in place, how Valkyr's 4th ability doesn't make him invulnerable, or how Excal's 1st doesn't home to the nearest target in front of him (in fact the Excal user is ok with the fact that it doesn't home, but he still found the range of the PvP version way too short).

Granted, you and I would see why these adjustments are necessary, as it would suck if someone end up finding themselves on the receiving end of the unaltered PvE version of the abilities mentioned. But what disheartened me was the reaction afterwards.

They got over it, yes. They still play Warframe. But they haven't touched Conclave since.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Seems the remainder of your post just elaborates on this idea of having new frames designed specifically for Conclave.

I'm not personally opposed, but aren't you concerned that - if anything - an entirely new frame that doesn't even exist in PvE would cause the most "friction" and the worst "bad vibe"?

Well the main idea behind making a Warframe roster exclusive to PvP, is one part to avoid the scenario where players have false assumptions about the potential of their loadouts destroyed once they go PvP: The realization that a different Warframe is required to play PvP would hopefully help enforce the idea that this is a different kit they're playing with, and it's not the same as the Warframe you use outside the mode.

Imagine a new player entering Conclave mode for the first time, and he finds another Warframe he can use specifically for that mode. He doesn't think "hmm, my pve loadout destroyed everything during missions, I can probably cheese the same way here in PvP" and maybe instead "Oh, there's a new suit, I wonder what this one can do" and he becomes open to the idea of relearning stuff since he knows it's the same for everyone else.

The sense of disconnection is minimized if there's a tangible change in the scenery/character when you enter Conclave mode.

The other, main reason as I've outlined in the original post, is it removes development-wise, the need to maintain a pvp version of every single warframe that comes out, and it allows the development of warframes meant to emphasize the good sides of PvP, rather than coming up with a kit that looks like it had PvE in mind as a priority and readjusted for PvP as an afterthought. That's how it feels for me anyway.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

What? I wasn't gonna respond in detail to the remainder of your post, but you've got it backwards here.

Roles are definitely more defined in PvE. Have you ever run Tridolon? There's a strict role for a one-shot-them-limbs frame, a strict role for a survive-the-lightshow frame, and a strict role for some intern to fetch the lures.

Hmm, alright, I'll admit to ignorance on my part on this one. I haven't played for quite a while, and I've sincerely forgotten how some missions are played. Or maybe I have watched too much WF videos where I'm just in awe of people managing to create builds that solo everything, and it painted completely different picture for what endgame looks like to me.

2 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

In Conclave, the muted significance of abilities means that a person's playstyle can be defined by so much more than their choice of frame. 

I think it's also determined by the fact that the rest of the loadout (guns, melee weapons, etc) have more weight in consideration compared to the frame itself. Not a bad thing, but it's just that I would like it if the frame's kit played a bigger role too.

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It would be neat to have a warframe balanced specifically for conclave rather than PvE which is obtained at conclave rank 4. Give it abilities focused mostly on team buffs, so its users can focus on when to use his kit while relying mostly on gunplay. It could also be a neat thing to play in PvE if DE makes right, but at least in PvE its buffs would have to be really huge to make up for its lack of nuking power.

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On 2019-04-02 at 10:09 PM, MdzKnight said:

The sense of disconnection is minimized if there's a tangible change in the scenery/character when you enter Conclave mode.

There are a lot of changes beyond abilities: the weapon rebalancing (and magazine capacity changes), the exclusive modset, critical hit (headshot) mechanics, debuffs (stagger/knockdown) and elemental procs... not to mention passives (frame and weapon passives) and energy mechanics.

A distinct frame only communicates a fraction of these differences. The sort of clarification we need is better served by a general notification when a player first creates a loadout in the Conclave arsenal (which should in turn be required before entering Conclave), alongside well-maintained in-game ability definitions and related documentation. Currently this sort of information is provided by the community. 1 2

Quote

The other, main reason ... is it removes development-wise, the need to maintain a pvp version of every single warframe

Revenant, Garuda, Hildryn, Baruuk.
Seems like that need has already been removed.

Quote

and it allows the development of warframes meant to emphasize the good sides of PvP, rather than coming up with a kit that looks like it had PvE in mind as a priority and readjusted for PvP

Maybe.

I won't deny that many frames have impractical abilities. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone cast Ice Wave, or Antimatter Drop, or Absorb, or Wormhole, or Energy Vampire, Well of Life, Minelayer, Sandstorm, Pacify, Provoke, Tectonics, Stasis, Rift Surge, Shatter Shield, Ravenous, Sound Quake, or Prism...

However, I'd say the drawbacks of these abilities are primarily as follows: low energy efficiency, casting vulnerability, and uselessness against opponents who have spacebars.
While fixing the third point would require more deliberate redesigns, many mediocre abilities can be made viable by simply adjusting costs/duration and casting speeds/damage reduction while casting. I can see myself effectively using a faster Ice Wave or Prism, a cheaper Wormhole or Minelayer, a longer-lasting Sandstorm or Shatter Shield, a safer Sound Quake or Renewal - even if other values of these abilities were nerfed to compensate.

Regarding your new PvP-frame, what abilities would you give it that don't already exist in some form on another frame?

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On 2019-04-09 at 12:55 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

It would be neat to have a warframe balanced specifically for conclave rather than PvE which is obtained at conclave rank 4. Give it abilities focused mostly on team buffs, so its users can focus on when to use his kit while relying mostly on gunplay.

Hmm, that could really work. Looking at the most recent replies in Conclave threads, it really shows that there's a solid preference on weapons over warframes when it comes to building for PvP. The idea that this pvp warframe could be obtained at a certain conclave rank is something I can get behind as well, since it will prevent newbies from 'accidentally' accessing a warframe whose kit may not be really of use to PvE, though as you said if DE can manage it, then this warframe may very well be a strong contender for PvE support warframes. Like Trinity but less boring, but that's just me.

On 2019-04-09 at 12:55 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

but at least in PvE its buffs would have to be really huge to make up for its lack of nuking power.

If I'm to pitch in an idea, I'm thinking of a warframe with very fast energy regen. All it's non-nuke abilities bring it's energy down to 0, but the effectiveness of these abilities depends on much energy the warframe has when the ability was fired. So it's like you can for example do rapid fire heals: consume less energy, but heal less as well, but casting heal with max energy (longer wait) will give also provide a brief invulnerability period to your party members. Risk and Reward.

On 2019-04-09 at 11:35 AM, SevenLetterKWord said:

There are a lot of changes beyond abilities: the weapon rebalancing (and magazine capacity changes), the exclusive modset, critical hit (headshot) mechanics, debuffs (stagger/knockdown) and elemental procs... not to mention passives (frame and weapon passives) and energy mechanics.

A distinct frame only communicates a fraction of these differences. The sort of clarification we need is better served by a general notification when a player first creates a loadout in the Conclave arsenal (which should in turn be required before entering Conclave), alongside well-maintained in-game ability definitions and related documentation.

A notification is a good way to start addressing the differences. The players should be immediately notified that there are changes and they can re-review their loadouts before getting started. To take a page from other games, I'd say it would also help greatly if the pvp-unique-stuff texts are color coded when found in the ability and weapon stats and tooltips, to make it easy for player to spot the unique info that they need. Pretty similar to what you did with your ability definitions thread.

It doesn't address another issue I have with the current system where you have to learn/memorize all the hidden nuances that might exist in pvp loadouts other than your own. But sure, it's a compromise that I'm willing to take.

On 2019-04-09 at 11:35 AM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Currently this sort of information is provided by the community. 1 2

This is where things get a little sticky for me. While it's not entirely unwelcome, I don't like it if a game forces the community around it to make external resources just to track things like these. It's one of the main reasons I made this thread, and it's why I'd like to isolate the roster with a new set of warframes and weapons, separate from you what see in PvE.

That said, I know my perspective comes from wanting warframe abilities to be more pvp oriented. While the spreadsheets tell me that this is another solution for the same problem by the community who largely prefer keeping all the guns intact, so I don't really find myself pushing against this idea too hard, and my thoughts regarding the visibility of pvp-unique stats are already included in my first reply anyway.

On 2019-04-09 at 11:35 AM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Revenant, Garuda, Hildryn, Baruuk.
Seems like that need has already been removed.

*** Not sure what you mean, checks wiki ***

Are you referring to the fact that these warframes don't have distinct conclave versions yet? I've always thought that since these are new Warframes, their conclave versions are just delayed. I don't think DE have abandoned their conclave versions just yet, as I mentioned earlier I think DE just keeps pushing ahead with their PvE content (like Warframes) then re-adjusted for PvP as an afterthought. I think that's what's happening here.

Unless what you're saying is that these warframes are already viable/usable for conclave in their current state, of which I claim ignorance: I don't own any of these warframes yet and I haven't tried going to pvp with them.

On 2019-04-09 at 11:35 AM, SevenLetterKWord said:

...

However, I'd say the drawbacks of these abilities are primarily as follows: low energy efficiency, casting vulnerability, and uselessness against opponents who have spacebars.
While fixing the third point would require more deliberate redesigns, many mediocre abilities can be made viable by simply adjusting costs/duration and casting speeds/damage reduction while casting. I can see myself effectively using a faster Ice Wave or Prism, a cheaper Wormhole or Minelayer, a longer-lasting Sandstorm or Shatter Shield, a safer Sound Quake or Renewal - even if other values of these abilities were nerfed to compensate.

Regarding your new PvP-frame, what abilities would you give it that don't already exist in some form on another frame?

I'm all for re-using existing warframe abilities. One of the warframe kits I used as an example was a collection of existing relocation-based abilities. Maybe useless for PvE yes (who needs to move that much when what you need is to focus damage on a horde in front of you?) But in PvP, the kit becomes a whole slew of options that adds to how you traverse the environment and avoid enemy fire. There's also the kit where I combined abilities that interrupt this freedom by being able to layer the environment with movement-impairing hazards. Again, bad for PvE (crowd control appeals very badly to people who can just kill the enemies), but could greatly help as a team support kit in PvP.

As for the quick adjustments that can be applied to be these abilities PvP viable, I won't deny the practicality of it (you can say you've already rendered that point of mine moot when you explained that the PvP-PvE thing is not a meticulous balancing act by DE, because warframes are simply neutralized by adjusting it's stats to scale with the average warframe).

But to go back on the pain points I've discussed, I'll have to invert my reply: It's the necessary nerfs that come with the buffs that I'm worried about, and it's what I think is driving people away, as I strongly believe that the sense of consistency can be kept if we just avoided being able to use loadouts we have from PvE.

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